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As opposed to alienating them, making them feel shamed, and not worthwhile as a member of the team, who maybe will present a creative idea that will just blow everyone's mind if you give them a chance to be creative.
Or they might not. You might disagree with them, but that's not a red flag to disagree with somebody.
You know, when you were talking in the introduction about having hard conversations with people, you know, as leaders, as empathic leaders, we have to be prepared to have these hard conversations with people and keep our center, and not just get into anger and judgment and shame, but to say, I hear
you. It's the basis of empathy, is, I hear you, I see you, and I value what you're saying, as opposed to, nothing you're saying makes sense.
I don't know if you belong on this team.
Now, whatever you're going to get into.
And, you know, have to do that.
You know, you can just say, I hear you, and I'll take it under consideration.
And that's all you have to do.
And that's an empathic way of putting things on pause or lowering the temperature in a difficult meeting.
And so it's a finesse and communication that you learn, as opposed to just mowing people down with your power.
Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of negotiate anything.
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Hey, everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial, okay?
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Judith, thanks for joining us today.
You're so welcome. Yes, it is great to have you, and how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
I'm a psychiatrist in Los Angeles, and I supervise residents at UCLA Department of Psychiatry, and I'm also an empath.
So I combine traditional medical knowledge with my knowledge of empathy and intuition, which are so important in becoming a whole person.
And I have a new book out called The Genius of Empathy with the foreword by the Dalai Lama, you know, His Holiness.
And it's about practical skills to heal yourself and your relationships and the greater world, finding a force of empathy to counterbalance all the chaos and confusion and polarization that's happening out there, what we can do as individuals to shift that pattern.
Incredible, and I think this work is more important now than ever.
And when we think about empathy, this is a word that has been utilized by so many people in so many different ways that we might not be really aligned on what a definition is for empathy.
So for this conversation and for the readers of your book, how is it that you would define empathy?
Well, there's different kinds of empathy, but empathy is basically putting yourself in somebody else's shoes so you can see their point of view.
Even if you don't like them, even if you disagree with them, it means tuning in to at least find out where they're coming from, as opposed to only being with people you agree with in your life rather than learning the skill of being able to hold all kinds of opinions without polarizing.
And that's really important, and there are different kinds of empathy.
And I focus on the starting place is self -empathy, to be able to have empathy for yourself and speak to yourself in your mind and your thoughts in a kind way, as if you're in a business negotiation and you have a negative voice in your head, that's going to slow you down in terms of connecting with others
and achieving the goal that you want to achieve.
So empathy is about finding that centered place, the martial arts point, to be able to be that centered person as well as have your heart open in your mind.
It's not just your mind.
The thing about empathy is that when you also go down to your heart and try and feel what's going on in the other person, it increases your power.
It increases your negotiating ability.
It increases how you see yourself and how you treat your family.
I mean, it just only adds to the strength of your mind and the strength of everything you've learned as an entrepreneur, as a leader.
It strengthens everything.
So you're not just dependent on one level of perception, which is your mind and very powerful.
Doesn't mean giving up the mind or logic, anything like that.
It just means adding something on top of it.
So you have more of an advantage by having different skills to tune into.
Let's focus in on that last point that you just made, Judith, because this is really, really important.
And I think it's something that people often miss, especially in the business world, because we might have people out there who are having difficult conversations, negotiating every day.
And they say to themselves and they say to other people, I'm not naturally empathetic.
I'm not an empath. I'm a logical thinker, those type of things.
And really oftentimes they're giving themselves an excuse not to tap into empathy because they don't fully appreciate that empathy is also a skill, not just a feeling.
And so can you speak to those people who might not be naturally empathetic and talk about the ability to increase and improve our empathy skills?
Yes, I've worked with so many patients over the years who are in business or I'm in LA.
So I get a lot of people in Hollywood and the entertainment industry and they come in and they're deal makers and they're running studios and they're in these power positions and they come in, you know, not with other complaints, maybe anxiety and depression.
And part of their healing and coming into their power is learning how to incorporate their heart as well as their incredible skills, because what happens when people stay in their mind too much for over year after year, they get burned out and it's not as satisfying anymore in terms of the power games.
So this allows you to come from a different place and all of my patients in that position always say, well, I thought empathy is a weakness.
If I show empathy, they're just going to jump all over me and I won't be able to achieve anything.
And that is so not true because what I'm asking you to do is to contain two aspects of yourself, not just be one person, to be able to bring a sense of humanity into your interactions as you're making your deals, as you're saying no, as you're getting your goals met, but you're doing it in a different
way. And why is that important?
Because from my perspective, it shifts the energy and it creates a new way of dealing with human beings rather than the old way, which, you know, people just burn out in the business.
You know, if they get older and older, what I've seen is that, you know, they just become unhappy that doesn't satisfy them in the same way.
So this is for you as an entrepreneur at any age to be able to have that mastery of your mind and bring in a sense of balance and caring and a sense of wanting to understand another person's view, even though, you know, make your deal and you make all the money and but you do it in a different way.
And my point of view is that if we don't do this, you know, especially among the leaders, and I have a chapter on empathic leadership and how it's not a weakness, if we don't do that, our world is not heading in a great place because if you're in a business situation or any situation and I look at you
with a bit of empathy rather than as the enemy and somebody I'm fighting, it changes things.
And if you, as an empathic leader, your role can expand to showing empathy as well as showing the strength and the prowess you've developed.
And so it just expands who you are and what we can be in a business environment so that we can become the people we really want to be and not only be limited to one way of interacting.
The thing that I love the most about what you're saying is the fact that you continue to emphasize the fact that we're not giving up something, we are adding something to our repertoire, to our skill set in order to increase our ability to connect with other people.
And I think a lot of times when you have been navigating the world in a very specific way, you don't realize what you're missing out on because you only know one way.
And one of the things that you mentioned that I think is really unique is the fact that you need to want to understand the other person.
You need to want to connect with the other person.
And I think a lot of times people look at empathy as a necessary evil.
If I do empathize, it is just because I have to.
But you're speaking to a desire.
So can you help us to distinguish between the outcomes or impact of somebody who is empathizing because they feel like they are forced to versus somebody who truly wants to empathize and connect with somebody?
Well, forced empathy doesn't get you very far.
I wouldn't suggest you force it.
If you really can't do it and you don't want to do it, just continue on in your own way.
That's fine. Just try and be a good person.
But if you do want to include it, it's something different.
It's, you know, you want to elevate, you know, how you do business and you want to elevate, you know, how you treat other people and you want your children to be proud of you.
You want your children to say, I want to be like you.
And I see how you can embody both.
I can be strong and I can be sensitive, really.
In the same being. And that will make them have these role models that they could really live up to.
If you only see the old paradigm of business in terms of all of the hedge fund people and all of that, if that's, you know, the ruthless paradigm of being a leader, that's what you're going to model.
That's what you're going to perpetuate.
And maybe you want your children to grow up like that.
I don't know, but I wouldn't.
And I think there's a better way to be where you can just be as strong and stronger.
And so if you, I mean, the simplest way of, we're abstract.
So the simplest way of showing empathy would be if somebody's on your team is sharing something and you disagree with them totally and you're, you know, wanting to cut them off.
Instead of doing that to say, you know, I hear where you're coming from and I'll give it some thought.
As opposed to alienating them, making them feel shamed and not worthwhile as a member of the team who maybe will, you know, present a creative idea that will just blow everyone's mind if you give them a chance to be creative.
Or they might not. You know, you might disagree with them, but that's not a red flag to disagree with somebody.
You know, when you were talking in the introduction about having hard conversations with people, you know, as leaders, as empathic leaders, we have to be prepared to have these hard conversations with people and keep our center and not just get into anger and judgment and shame, but to say, I hear you.
It's the basis of empathy is I hear you, I see you, and I value what you're saying.
As opposed to nothing you're saying makes sense.
I don't know if you belong on this team.
Now, whatever you're going to get into, and, you know, have to do that.
You know, you can just say, I hear you and I'll take it under consideration.
And that's all you have to do.
And that's an empathic way of putting things on pause or lowering the temperature in a difficult meeting.
And so it's a finesse in communication that you learn as opposed to just mowing people down with your power.
This is incredible.
I love the simplicity of this.
I hear you, I see you, and I value what you're saying.
And now let's tie this back to something that you said at the beginning to deepen the challenge because it sounds simple, but obviously you've dedicated your whole life to this, so you know how hard this can be.
And so let's say you're in a difficult conversation and we are talking to somebody and we disagree with them completely.
And coming into this, we carried a lot of biases, and we said, you know what?
I'm talking to this person.
I bet I'm going to disagree with everything that they said.
So that's the kind of energy we're bringing into this conversation.
How do we really champion the spirit of empathy here?
Hearing them, seeing them, and then especially lastly, valuing what they're saying if deep down in our core, we disagree with everything that they're saying.
Because you're just respecting another point of view.
You're not supporting their specific point of view, but here's a human being.
Here's maybe someone on your team or a colleague who is expressing something that you don't agree with.
And so your job at that point is not to fight with them.
And yes, you really have all these base emotional reactions.
And that's a good point.
I don't mean to say you emotionally bypass what you're feeling, or I can't stand what this person is saying, or whatever you're feeling, but you choose to come from a different place.
So there's no point in getting into that with them.
You know, if there's no meeting ground, there's no, you know, just about respecting someone where there's no meeting ground.
You know, having a basic respect for people you do business with, even if you don't believe in their ideals.
And your job as an empathic leader is to stay grounded, to stay in your power, and to simply say something short.
I hear what you're saying.
I'll consider it, as opposed to attacking them, or judging them, or shaming them.
It's just a better way to get in and out of situations.
So a lot of people get drained when they're doing business, and especially with difficult interactions.
And so you want to minimize the fallout of them on you.
And you want to be able to, you know, really say no.
And to say, all right, I don't have anything in common with this person.
I'm still in this meeting with them, and I can't stand what they're saying.
You know, this is the inner dialogue that I would have at that moment.
And so I would say, what kind of boundaries do I have to set?
I limit the timing of the meeting.
I would listen rather than interrupting, because when people get—they have judgments about others, they tend to interrupt, and that creates a lot of friction between people.
But if you listen for a certain amount of time and just, you know, keep it even, and keep it this person, you know, has these points of view.
And that's important to honor another person's points of view, even if you don't agree with them.
And if you have any desire to shift the energy in this world and to make this world a better place, there's better role modeling than the old modeling that goes on in business in terms of, I'm the boss, this is what you're going to do.
And if you don't follow my recommendations exactly, you'll be fired.
You could do that. I mean, it won't get you anywhere, but just you get more people that you'll have to do that with, you know, or you can learn a kind of tolerance and also bring out the best in people, as people are scared to really speak their creative truths.
And you want to hear all that creativity that's going on.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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This is so good. And one of the things that's most groundbreaking about what you said is the nexus between empathy and respect.
Because when I asked about how do you empathize with somebody when you deeply disagree with them, you said it's just all about respecting the other person.
And what I recognize is that respect is often reciprocal in nature.
If I show respect to you, you show respect back.
And if I'm in a difficult conversation and the other person doesn't agree with me, what would I want them to do?
I would want them to empathize with me.
Show me the human to human respect that even if you don't agree with me, you see value in me as a human and as a result, you see value in what it is that I say.
And if we can demonstrate that and be that leader in the interaction and show that behavior to other people, now we're modeling that good behavior and it makes it more likely for it to come back to us.
And the other thing that you said that I really liked is the fact that we have the right to feel the way that we feel.
And I think a lot of times we tell ourselves, I will empathize when I feel like empathizing.
And that can put you in a really dangerous position because oftentimes the harder the conversation, the less we feel like empathizing naturally.
And again, when we recognize that empathy is a skill, we can say, all right, yes, I do feel this way.
And I will still utilize the skill of empathy in this moment.
And I think being able to separate the feeling of desiring empathy or maybe I should say feeling naturally empathetic in this moment and the skill of utilizing empathy in this conversation, recognizing that those two things can be separate is really empowering.
Yes, absolutely. It's very empowering because it brings you to a different place that makes you feel better about yourself, even better than where you're at now.
Let's say you're feeling pretty good about yourself, but you don't want to try something new to grow, to feel even better.
This is a way to do it.
And you can show empathy for people who are insecure, let's say, in your workplace.
And as you know, they fumble and bumble around because they're afraid to speak up.
So you, empathy would mean encouraging them to tell them it's okay.
Just whatever you're wanting to say, it's a safe environment.
So if people feel it's a safe environment to express their creative impulses, you're really going to get a lot of plus from that, you know, a lot of power from that.
Because as a team, I look at teams as kind of being a sacred entity, where people are brought together to work together to create something better for the world.
And so every member of that team, you might like some more than others, some members, but it doesn't matter how much you like somebody.
It's how much you can respect them and hear their ideas and encourage them to bring it out, as opposed to if they're a little wobbly, you just come in and cut them off and go on to the next thing, you know, because you're getting impatient.
Just give them a little more time, you know, a little more understanding.
So they feel that if they get this incredible idea, you won't shoot it down.
If you don't like it, you'll maybe put it on hold or not go forward with it.
But, you know, sometimes the downside of being a really powerful entrepreneur is that there's a meanness that sometimes comes out or a feeling, maybe, that I'm better than you.
And, you know, from my perspective, nobody's better than anybody else.
You know, we're all here together on this planet.
And with empathy, you can feel that the connection to other people.
So I know it's a hard thing to ask for some of you.
If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
But the role of the ego versus the role of the heart and how you could combine the mind.
But whenever we perceive ourselves as being better than other people, for whatever reasons, fill in the blanks, we're in trouble.
That's a problem because we're all here in this together and empathy lets you feel that.
This is really powerful.
And I have to say, because as I'm doing this, every once in a while, I hear the questions from the audience asynchronously coming to me.
And I know there are going to be some skeptical people out there.
And one of the things that I hear a lot from people is I don't have time to do this.
The business world is fast.
I'm stressed. I've got a lot on my plate.
And when I hear you talk about empathy and listening to people when we don't agree, and sometimes giving people space to talk.
And explain themselves when I don't agree or I might not think what they have to say has value.
In my mind, there's a scarcity of time and I want to make sure that I can move quickly.
So for the people who are saying, I don't have time to empathize with the people around me.
How would you coach them through that challenge?
Yeah. Well, if you're in a quick moving environment or you've got to do things quickly and you can't give them time to express themselves and so forth.
Now, you just have to shift your point of view before you go into that meeting.
It's going fast and you don't have any time to feel empathy.
You can shift. Then may I show the best part of myself in this meeting?
May I be able to use all my powers of the mind and heart when I go in this meeting and set your attention and then go.
And you're quick and you're going and you try and keep in mind everything that I wrote about in the Genius of Empathy.
And if you fail, that's okay too.
So you have to have empathy with yourself.
But you can set yourself on a really quick time frame.
Now, if that's what's going on, you know, if I'm in that environment and I've got to act fast and I've got to be able to shift from one thing to another.
I set my attention before I go.
I have a great desire to show empathy.
Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I succeed.
But I have a great desire for it.
And you just learn to operate faster.
I supervise psychiatric residents at UCLA and they're in clinics where they have to go back to back.
Patience, I mean, all day long.
They have no break time, literally.
And so I teach them how to get into that state and maybe take five or ten minutes beforehand and eat well and practice some self -care and show yourself some empathy.
So you don't put yourself down in the meetings and then they go.
It's like a racehorse, then they go and they're going in a fast clip.
But because of our work together, they have the general framework of how to handle that fast clip.
And what their highest intentions are.
And sometimes we fail, sometimes we succeed, but we have our minds and hearts in the right place.
And giving yourself the permission to fail gives yourself the permission to try.
Self -empathy, self -compassion.
Those are the unsung heroes of confidence.
They help us to take risks, to move forward and actually put this into practice.
And I think it's really empowering to understand that empathy is a skill and we can still utilize this skill of empathy in a time crunch.
Because in a perfect world, would we have better ability to empathize more deeply with the other person if we had more time?
Yes. And we don't live in a perfect world and sometimes things move really fast, but we still have the opportunity to be as empathetic as possible under those time constraints.
And I think that's really, really empowering.
Yes. And you have to feel it, to feel the power of it.
And it's super fun too, because you feel you're in the right place and you're doing the right things to the best of your ability.
And other people feel it and that you have to ask yourself, how do you want to be seen by your colleagues?
I mean, this isn't about people pleasing.
This is about what kind of person do you want to be?
When they talk about you in their private privacy, what do they say?
Do they say, oh, he or she is a really hard businessman and, but they're not really that nice.
Or I don't really like them that much when I deal with them versus he or she is a real person.
And look at how skilled they are.
So it's a new prototype of how to be.
And you might not think about these things or care about what other people think about you, because they're always in all the self -help.
You're not supposed to care about what other people think about you.
You know, you want to feel that you're respected in your community and that, wow, he can do this and she could do this and she can do that.
And I felt good after the interaction.
You want people to feel as good as they can, even if they've lost, even if you've made this huge financial deal, you know, that's a skill of making people feel good about themselves and yet they're losing.
That's what empathy can do.
Yes, it's powerful.
And I think about back when I was doing mediation as the mediator, one of the things that I was most proud of were those times where we didn't get an agreement and they would come after me and say, after the fact and say, hey, listen, I didn't get what I wanted, but I felt like I was respected through
the process. And it is a very tough thing to do.
But once you start to practice it and you start to see it, you realize I can create a connection with another person.
I can meaningfully share space with them and show them respect while at the same time setting very clear and effective boundaries and driving to the things that matter to me.
And once we start to open our minds and recognize that it is not an either or, either I'm a cold, callous, dealmaker driving only to what I want and sometimes plowing over people in the process.
I can also be an empathetic leader and conversationalist, then share space and connect and still do the same thing.
It unlocks a whole new level of success and connection that wasn't available before.
And one thing that I've recognized is that when people start being empathetic, sometimes they can be disappointed in the amount of empathy they get in return.
And this is a question I get a lot of times in my trainings, they say, okay, Kwame, I'm actually an empath.
I have no problem being empathetic.
The problem I have is that in these difficult conversations, I'm not getting that same empathy in return.
So what can I do to get somebody else to empathize with me?
Because right now it seems like empathy is only coming in one direction and it is me to them.
Well, that's a good question.
What I've seen is that I could be with the most difficult person who I don't like, and I'll say something simple like, thank you for sharing that.
I hear your point of view and I'll give it some consideration.
And what I'm saying with that is that I respect you and what you've said.
I don't agree with you.
But then sometimes—this isn't always—but sometimes the other person will go, what?
She's actually telling me she hears me and she's not arguing with me.
And so they say things like, oh, do you want to go out for tea or something like that?
You know, that's so surprising.
Or you want to walk a little further and talk or whatever.
Just they melt, I mean, as opposed to—and not all people will.
Some people are just rigid and you want to wish them well, and that's fine.
But some people—and it's really interesting.
Once they feel heard and they don't have to do their normal fight in blocking you out and saying bad things about you, then they become friendly.
I once spoke at a grand rounds, and that's for medical students who come in and listen to speakers.
And the head of the psychiatry department was sitting there in the first row, and he clearly didn't like anything I had to say about empathy or intuition, as I'm a big believer in trusting your gut.
And I thought, oh, my God, he's sitting in the front row.
This is going to be horrible.
And so I just went about my talk, as I usually do.
And then afterwards he comes up to me and I think, oh, no, he's coming up to me.
He's going to give me a hard time.
And he comes up to me and he said—he didn't say anything about the nature of my talk.
He said, I can't believe how kind you were with everybody.
And so what he saw and what he remembered was not the information where he has charge and triggers there.
He just saw the kindness.
And that was always very meaningful to me, in terms of what stood out for him.
When he could have gone after me in so many different ways, he didn't.
So it's interesting.
And you must be aware that people respond in unexpected ways.
People you never thought in a million years would respond in a certain way.
Once you model it and you're able to give them some feedback, even when you're going fast, that I'm not going to come down on you.
I just won't agree with you.
But giving that energy, you don't necessarily say it, but you hold your body in body language and you speak in a certain way that's kind but strong.
And your eyes are looking a certain way.
I go through a chapter on empathic listening and how to maximize your power when you're reading a room.
And when you approach them in that way, it's very, very different.
You get surprises. And those surprises are almost what makes everything worth it.
And the ones who don't react very well will never give you empathy, especially— I have a chapter in the book on narcissists, too.
And narcissists have empathy -deficient disorder.
So you want to be aware.
If you—I tell you how to diagnose a narcissist immediately, you must.
If you're doing empathy work, you must learn to diagnose a narcissist so you don't try and give them a lot of empathy, because they're not going to respond.
They're just going to want to take advantage of you because they're not wired neurologically to have empathy.
And so it's important to identify those people and to just lower your expectations of them.
Don't open your heart to them.
You might need to work with a lot of narcissists in the business world, you know, and certainly in the political world, my God.
There are parades everywhere, and it's a lesson for humanity to see what happens with the narcissistic personality.
But being empathic is—first of all, being empathic with yourself and identifying this person, hmm, they're not going to be, you know, very receptive to empathy.
And lowering your expectations, and let's say you're doing a deal with them, you just simply try and frame things in terms of how it would serve them because that's all they're interested in.
They're not interested in you or your emotions or your empathy, nothing.
Just frame it in terms of how you serve them, what your goal is with them, and keep it very simple, you know, keep it so that your needs get met.
What I love about this advice is that it is clear and it is very real.
It is very real. And I think a lot of times in this space it's a really good job of keeping it real for people because people might say, all right, Judith and Kwame, I'm going to try this empathy thing in a tough conversation and guess what?
I tried it and it didn't work.
And that might happen.
I think that's important to understand.
It's not always going to work.
It increases your likelihood of success but doesn't guarantee your success.
And the example that you gave of dealing with somebody who actually has narcissistic personality disorder, it will not work in those situations.
And so we still have now given ourselves the permission again to try to put ourselves in the right position utilizing empathy and then also giving us the permission to adjust and recognize that perhaps I'm dealing with somebody who will take advantage of this empathetic approach and I need to adjust
my behavior in this scenario.
I think that's really, really powerful allowing us to make that read and make that determination.
And then going back to the other thing that you said, sometimes people will surprise us because sometimes we come in with these ideas and we say, oh, this person will never, ever, ever be empathetic in return and we can be surprised and it really makes us think how many of our interactions don't go
well because we are led by our own biases and as a result, it leads us to steer the conversation in a negative way creating a self -fulfilling prophecy where the person doesn't give us empathy in return.
And so we have more power than we think.
We just need to feel empowered to put this empathy into action.
Right, and to know who you're dealing with.
No, it's not empathy as in being naive.
Saying here's a malignant narcissist.
What do I do? And go to that chapter in the book and say, all right, this is what I do in terms of lowering my expectations, expressing my needs very simply, getting in and getting out.
And so it's rather than they're all over.
Narcissists are all over in the business world so you have to learn how to deal with them but not get hooked in by them.
You know, we're not, this happens too or fall in love with a colleague who's a narcissist.
I've seen that happen as they're so seductive.
You know, and especially in the beginning of a business deal or beginning of a relationship.
They love bomb you and they make you feel like the most important person in the room.
And they have this skill of doing that.
But once you recognize that, you know, you take it with a grain of salt, you know, you just go slow.
If you see anyone trying to seduce you like that in any environment, if you're doing a deal if you're dating somebody, no.
You have to be very suspicious of that and go slow because the minute you don't do something on their timeframe or in their way, they're going to get extremely cold withholding, punishing, judgmental, shaming, all kinds of things to make you feel two inches tall because that's how they operate.
So it's just a matter of being realistic of who you're dealing with.
But the rest of the population, there's a lot more hope.
Yes. Yes. And I think that is a very, very strong way to end this episode.
Judith, this has been exceptional, my friend.
Thank you for joining us.
And before you go, can you remind the listeners about your new book that's coming out and how they can get in touch and work with you?
Yes, this is the book.
It's called The Genius of Empathy.
The Dalai Lama has written the foreword and it has chapters on self -empathy, empathy in business, empathy in your personal life.
So you could just go through each chapter, very how -to, very practical, not wordy, very simple to help you initiate into empathy and maybe just experiment a little if this is the beginning.
But if you're interested at all, if anything got activated in you, you might want to just give it a try.
Judith, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
You're welcome. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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