My name is Bridget, and I produce The Imperfects.
I grew up in Australia, but my ancestors arrived by boat in search of gold during the 1800s.
What I've come to realise is that they arrived on land that had been cared for by the Indigenous peoples of this continent for millennia.
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We at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded and and we extend our respects to their elders past and present.
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The Imperfix is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
I wanted to talk about midlife. Despite the happiness levels being potentially at its lowest, Meaning is greatest during this period.
In the second half of life, the real question is what does the soul want from me?
I find it hard to know what is midlife and what is potentially Symptoms of depression and untangling those things is difficult.
Quick, is anyone here a doctor? Yes, her name is Dr. Emily and she's a psychologist.
Please welcome to The Imperfects, our very own Psychologist.
She's laughing again. She is laughing again.
Yes. That shoulder move just really got me.
It wouldn't be a Dr. Emily episode if I didn't do a shimmy at the start.
Well, it's your customary dance you do at the start of all Emily's episodes, and there was a time when-
There was that one time where she stopped laughing, but she's back laughing again.
So it's always right with the world. Black Wednesday, we call that.
We don't talk about that, do we? Have you thought about it much since?
I haven't slept much recently. How I am?
I'm very good. Great day. Great day to have you in.
It's great to be here, as always. And we have had a sneak peek as to what this episode is all about.
And I can't tell whether I'm like excited to talk about it or terrified. and confronted and challenged.
Or in denial that it'll actually be a thing for me.
That it's actually about me. Yeah. It's about us.
It is smack bang about. Well, maybe not you, Josh.
No, not Josh. I'll wait and see. Some fertile ground.
What is it? What are we talking about? Well, I wanted to talk about midlife.
Oh, that time in life where your back goes out more than you do.
Oh, very good. Did you make that up? No, I heard someone say it and they were so proud of it.
Oh, it is good. I thought, I wonder if I get to repeat that ever.
Yeah. And then that day came. And then I talked about things like that.
A midlife. Yeah. God, it's a weird time, isn't it?
Yeah, it is. And it's something that I say a lot in my practice.
Mm-hmm. A lot of people do present to therapy kind of in this period of time for lots of reasons, which we'll talk about.
But I was thinking back to all the guests that you've had you know, on the show, obviously, and in some ways there's lots of relevance to a lot of episodes here.
But I wanted to pick up on... Elizabeth Day's episode.
Elizabeth Day being the host of the podcast How to Fail. in the UK and she was, what a joy she was when she came on.
She's our glorious friend. Yeah. Charm personified.
Yep. So there were many kind of key things in what she was talking about in that episode and obviously a big part of that story of what she shared was around grief, but I also think it runs alongside, you know, this kind of almost like developmental task that we have in midlife.
And so I just wanted to play a grab from her episode and then we can kind of talk a little bit more about what this means in general.
I had understood at some level from whatever messaging I'd given myself that my purpose was to be a mother.
That was the thing that guided all of my choices over the last 12 years.
And one of my biggest fears, if I let that go, was, well, what's my meaning?
What's my purpose on this earth? Like, I need to have something that feels like it fulfills the great privilege of being here.
And I really thought about it and... My partner, Justin, was like, maybe you want to do charity work.
I was like, yes, I think that maybe I do.
And then... slowly it struck me that maybe my purpose is not to be a mother and to speak to those people who who have not been able to be parents despite their best efforts.
Because your friends are right. There isn't anyone else, I don't think, doing that.
I certainly haven't found someone. I found people who are happily child-free, who have... decided never to try and have a baby, or I've heard from people who've gone through terrible struggles and have ended up with their children in one way or the other.
And I want to be that voice for those people who were me feeling fearful, lost, confused.
And I want to tell you that there is hope and peace on the other side. that something this seismic, which will always cause me sadness, always, but I can be at peace with that and I have grown so much from it.
And I feel like I've entered this phase where I feel so creative And ultimately that's what parenting is.
That's what conception is. It is the ultimate act of creation.
And I have freed up this headspace now that I'm no longer pursuing that dream.
And suddenly I just feel like... creative again and I'm writing a new novel and I'm doing shows and I'm feeling so aligned with with my purpose, and it's a revelation.
Oh, how great's Elizabeth Day? She is good with words.
She's real good with words. Better than me. there were so many things that struck me about what she shared.
And to me, it really exemplified this task that we have in middle life.
Can we get an age on middle life? Yeah, that's a good question.
That is a good question. So some research would say that it's from 40 to 65.
Others would say that it's from 35 to 70.
65? Yeah, and it's interesting, yes. So what we know is that midlife has actually extended quite significantly.
For those people living to 130. Yeah, that's a huge time.
Yeah. Wow. Yes, there's some conjecture on what constitutes midlife and what age range that would be.
My assumption was like 39 to 50. No. Yeah.
So we're really looking at- I hate being wrong.
We're really kind of, if we were to generalise here from the research, it would be around-ish late 30s into early 60s perhaps.
Wow. And I think that is a big period of time.
Yeah. Yeah. From a psychological point of view, when we look at different periods of age or different age ranges, One of the really prominent and long-lasting theories of development is Eric Erickson's psychosocial theory of development.
Mm-hmm. And he posits that at different stages of life there are these tasks that we have to resolve to kind of move forward.
And so obviously as infants we have these tasks of development that are often very motor-driven or socially-driven tasks In adolescence, we have this task of separating from our parents.
We have identity formation. But when it comes to midlife, the conflict that we have to resolve or that we're invited to solve is the conflict between what's called generativity versus stagnation.
Okay, I obviously understand what that means, but for Hugh and Josh...
Go into a bit more detail. Just before we do, are you – like the first thing that pops into my head is like midlife crisis.
Like I'm thinking is that where this chat is headed or is this just like –
Yes. An offshoot of midlife. That's a really, really important point because I think in some ways midlife has had a really bad rap and it's associated with despair and crises.
When you think about midlife crisis, everything we've learned on this podcast about what happens to women through menopause and all these things that we've learned about and talked about, It feels weird to me that men go and have a midlife crisis when like nothing happens.
They just like get a bit older and go, well, I'm going to buy a sports car and have an affair.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because it's pretty hard being me.
Yeah, but that's true, isn't it? When you think like the cliche of a male midlife crisis is –
Yeah, like either quitting the job and like starting a new hobby or like buying a boat or doing big things that is like – feels like trying to fill a void.
Yes, and I think this is actually really reflective of this conflict between, like if we look at generativity, basically what generativity means. is the drive to create and produce something meaningful and to take action towards... creating this thing, producing this thing, nurturing this thing that will be meaningful and that will potentially outlast us.
So it's about generating, almost generating your legacy.
Is that because the first part of your life before that is more about achievement or you're trying to – like there's like a focus on achieving things?
Yes. And then once you've got to that point where you feel like, is that the next step?
Is that kind of what? Yeah. We can say that there's lots of different theories of development around, you know, what our kind of goals or intentions are in the first half of life.
I might just bring this in now because it feels so pertinent to what we're talking about.
There is an incredible psychoanalyst. James Hollis, and he's a Jungian therapist.
I was hoping you were going to say James Jameson after Eric Erickson.
Sorry. This is just on Eric Erickson. Is his son called Eric?
Because imagine, Eric Erickson's son, Eric.
Erickson. Anyway, something to think about.
That won't be the takeaway from the episode.
It has been occupying a few of my brain spaces.
Eric Erickson's son, Eric Erickson. So James Hollis, he's a psychoanalyst.
He uses what's, his work is based on Jungian therapy, which is based on Carl Jung's approach to therapy, which is I'll invite you just to go and investigate that.
It's really fascinating stuff. And in James Hollis's work, he has this magnificent book, which is called Finding Mending in the Second Half of Your Life.
Oh, I know this. That's the book that you recommend to people.
Is that that? It's different from Arthur Seabrook's Strength to Strength.
Oh, okay. But there's a relationship there in its key messages.
Right. And... James Hollis speaks so profoundly about what he calls is the yearnings of the soul.
And I want to paraphrase something that he has said before in his work.
And what he says is that the question that occupies us in the first half of life is is what does the world want from me?
What do my parents want from me? What does my employer want of me?
What does my partner want of me? And we develop in response to these expectations what he terms as a provisional sense of self, this self that is there to meet the expectations of others.
Now, when we've done that, the question then is why are we still here?
Once we've done that, we've risen to these kind of world expectations.
What next? And so he says in the second half of life, the real question is what does the soul want from me?
Hmm. Hmm. And what is so fascinating is that if we look at the word psyche, it's the Greek word for soul.
And if we look at the word psychopathology, which is, you know, what we use obviously in therapy and making diagnoses is therapy psychological illness, if we look at the root of that word in Greek, it's the expression of the suffering of the soul.
And so when we think about midlife, this question that we get exposed to when we've done all the achieving.
We've worked hard to go through all of those milestones that we are told that we should be achieving.
And then we get to this point and the question is, why am I here?
Yeah. And then what is the soul asking of me?
Hmm. So it's really the crisis here is actually, from my point of view, is not... a bad or abnormal or unhealthy thing.
It's actually in some ways like how we pay attention to this crisis can bring us through to greater meaning, purpose and vitality in potentially the next 40 years of your life. yeah oh it's it's it rings very true to me like the i i had a i had a i had a pre-midlife crisis um Didn't quite hit the crisis but, you know, saw it.
But that's exactly what it felt like. It felt like a realisation that I had or a feeling that I had and it felt like it was like, oh, what...
What does that mean? To be honest, it set me on a journey that led me here.
Honestly, realizing that was the reason that got me thinking about the second half of my life and is what got me to message you.
Yeah. And that would also then be an example of what's called generativity, which is the taking of the action to create something.
To create a sense of meaning and purpose, to create growth.
Now, what so often happens in midlife is that we can... very often sit in that stage or that place of stagnation because it feels uncomfortable. turning towards the discomfort or the dissatisfaction that's here.
I just want to also clarify that when I messaged you, I don't want it to sound like I had this very clear idea of why I was messaging you.
It was really just like I felt stuck and he was just a random guy that I'd met once and did some interesting work and I thought, well, maybe I can just talk to him about it. about it but I had no I don't want anyone to think that I had this mission to find purpose or I had no idea what I was doing at that point it was No, but there was something that you listened to there.
Yeah, yeah. That was calling for your attention.
Yes. And I think this is like the whole point of midlife.
And we can talk about existential crises, for example, is that whether it's feeling unfulfilled or bored or on autopilot, we need to listen to that and hear what its message is.
And if this is here, if this kind of stagnation going through the motions, this feels not particularly pleasant...
Like this is stuff to listen to because it's almost like from James Hollis' point of view, it's like the soul yearning for something more than this life, than this what is here right now.
God, it's tricky. It's tricky, isn't it?
Because it's like, on one hand, the soul can say whatever it wants.
But if you've got like, yeah. I'd love to quit my job and go and do this thing that the soul wants.
But realistically... I don't know how to... It feels way too scary to make that huge change.
I think that's where the stress or... discomfort and worry and concern and I don't know all those sorts of feelings come in where you feel like well I know what I want to do but I don't feel like I can do it yeah it's like That sounds cool, Sol, but are you going to pay the school fees for me while I do this?
Yeah. Yeah, and I think that this is a really important point to acknowledge is that This question around the yearnings of the soul is not a selfish question either.
It's not about... like the ego needs or the needs that are self-absorbed.
But really kind of when we think about, you know, particularly what James Hollis is referring to is When I wake up every day, why am I here and in service to what?
When we think about the yearnings of the soul, it's to create something meaningful and for the world to experience.
The way I'm interpreting that is it doesn't need to be your everything.
No. It's not about like throwing something out and starting something new.
Yes. And so like I can speak kind of esoterically about – the soul yearnings, but we can also look really practically at what does that actually look like?
Because it doesn't have to be obviously that you quit your job and you move overseas and you have affairs.
This is not what we're talking about. But more like really being able to, for a start, this kind of the invitation or the challenge that is here is to turn inwards.
And to face our internal landscape, which we may have been avoiding for a very long time.
Mm-hmm. But at some point, what often happens is that the pain of being... in this stagnated place gets so big that you can no longer ignore it.
And it's like this tipping point. where I just can't stay the same.
I can't stay in the same place anymore. So this is like, it's almost like at the point where maybe you've already bought the sports car and it hasn't worked.
And you've maybe ended the relationship and that hasn't changed anything.
And you've tried all these things that you thought like, well...
Maybe if I grow a ponytail, maybe that'll change things.
I would have done that one first. All these things that we all try.
They don't work. And so this is the point where it's like you feel stagnation, yeah.
Yeah, and also those things... Those things are quite often forms of experiential avoidance.
So avoidance of the discomfort. of feeling bored, of feeling unengaged, of feeling disappointed or sorrowful.
So we seek out things that you know, on the surface make us feel better, like I'm going to go and buy this luxury car or the... Grow a ponytail.
Yeah, exactly. Or temptations around affairs.
It's like that there's a yearning to feel something different and something better than what this place is offering me.
And so we try and seek out other ways to absolve ourselves of this really unpleasant or aversive feeling.
But we often do it in ways that is really unhealthy.
I do feel like this comes from a – certainly for me personally –
Your first glimpse that time is running out when you get into, for me, getting into my forties was my first glimpse of like, oh, time's running out.
I could arguably be halfway here. Yes. And it's like – what's a good analogy –
Like when I'm doing breath work, like a guided meditation and say I'd choose a 10-minute one, I might spend the first five minutes.
I'm focusing, thinking about work stuff and then I'm thinking about –
Family stuff. And then I go, oh, there's not long left.
I've got to focus. Can I get something out of this?
And I really like the last three minutes.
And it's like. It feels a bit like that, like time's running out and I've got to do something.
There's not as much time as there once was.
I've got to get something out of this now.
And I wonder if that is what brings you to focus or that's what – gives the soul kind of the courage to like make some noise.
Absolutely. And that's also often what will bring people into therapy.
Is this, I mean, obviously there's many varied reasons as to why people do come, but it may be this recognition that like, is this my life? what do I want my life to be like?
And I'm exposed to the fact that it is going to end.
And so for this first half, we spend so much time kind of accumulating or achieving.
And then we get to this point and it's often around this age too that we do get exposed to like, the fact that our bodies aren't working the way they used to or that we actually get exposed to really significant losses.
In this period of time, particularly, we might start to experience things friends and family having significant illnesses.
We might also be what's called the sandwich generation, which is where we are in the middle of in this middle period of time is that we're caring for younger children but also caring for ageing parents.
So we get exposed to our parents' ageing.
We therefore get exposed to their mortality and therefore our own.
So it absolutely is this period here of recognising Oh my gosh, like... what do I do here?
This is my life will end. How do I want to spend this next 40 years?
What do I want to cultivate? How do I want to curate this period of time?
Am I right in saying that... And if I am, just say I'm right and give me a gold star or something.
But... I also feel like particularly, and maybe this is wrong in saying it's just for men, but I was speaking to someone recently who, and this is maybe a bit of a dark term, but it could be contextual, but around this time, like kind of midlife, early 40s for men, there's a high suicide risk.
There is. And I don't know if that plays into this sort of feeling of being stuck or this question of like, is this my life?
Is that right to bring that up? Yeah, from what I understand, that is the case.
How that is linked to this midlife period, I couldn't exactly say.
I can have some conjecture and hypotheses around that certainly.
But yes, you know, there's... I think also what can happen during this period of time is that we get really exposed to things the stories that we've been telling ourselves and the suffering that has come alongside of that and that you know, if we haven't in some ways been able to find ways through that suffering or ways to work with that, it can feel extremely exhausting.
And we can start to get exposed to this question around what's the point?
And so that question... you know, often shows up in suicidal ideation.
What's the point? What's the point of being here?
So yes, like the, you know, we do know that there is a higher risk period for men in particular.
And that's for a number of different reasons, which I won't mention here.
But yes, this is the age in which we can say that this death by suicide is more likely. to be occurring.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, because I can only imagine for so many people if you're not in a place where you expected you might be or hoped you might be.
Yes. Particularly if you're, again, I don't have the experience, but like particularly if you're If you've got kids or a family or even if you're a very ambitious person in your career... and you've had these hopes and dreams of where you might be and you're also dealing with just the comparison of where other people are.
Yes. It feels like the time in life where you, you know, quote unquote, should... have it together or it should have worked out by now.
Yes. And if it hasn't and you're seeing it work out for other people, it's, the overwhelm and feeling of maybe a hopelessness.
I don't know that I can really see how that would build.
Yeah, I think that that is so spot on, particularly in some ways when there's a pausing, this recognition of a deep grief.
Yeah. for how my life is now and it's maybe not what I'd hoped for or expected and that can feel extremely painful and very heavy.
And it also can be a real time in life of regret. of feeling really disappointed that I didn't take this action or I did take this action.
And we can get really caught in cycles of rumination around that. and self blame and criticism for the choices that we've made at different points in time.
And also this really great sorrow that this isn't what I wanted for my life. or that this is not how I had expected life to pan out.
And I think that there's a... The task that comes in this time is to work with the grief that's there and to work with some forgiveness and compassion.
So forgiving the younger you that made those choices.
And then to look at, okay, so now, now that I'm here, and I think I've said this before, but what do I want to stand for in the face of this now?
So how do I want this next part of my life to look?
Knowing I've made these mistakes or that there are these regrets here or there are circumstances I have no control over.
What do I do now with this? Yeah. I have been absolutely stunned by the onslaught of emotions, complex emotions that have come along with midlife.
I just, when you think about, when I think about parents, whilst they might be stressed and run off their feet, I always feel like I looked to them when I was much younger as people who just kinda had it all sorted.
And I know that's such a cliched and obvious thing to think, but I, I didn't see this coming, the amount of complex emotions that come with being 44 at the moment.
And I think from people that I speak to very honestly about, it's very common.
Like new emotions and complex ones that you just didn't really –
It can feel very blindsiding that I'm getting exposed to all of these big existential questions. you know, again, feelings of regret or grief, disappointment, it can feel very disorienting that this is all showing up all of a sudden.
And there can be a number of reasons for that.
Like obviously there are life circumstances and some of us will get knocked around more than others.
Like this is just, this is a fact. We all will get knocked around. the degree to which will obviously vary.
But it's so interesting when you look back in your early 20s, if you've been lucky enough to have you know, a healthy upbringing, a childhood, for example.
You know, I'm even curious about things like whether... anyone had like five-year plans or the goals that they were going to achieve when they were younger?
You're asking? Yeah. Did any of you guys have that?
No. No, I've never had like a five-year plan.
Especially not as like a – Yeah. Just go to room nightclub on a Thursday night and –
It's so funny that I asked that because amongst myself and my girlfriends, we all had five-year plans. from finishing high school, these five-year plans and then like this is going to happen and then this will happen.
And it just feels so quintessential of those younger, hopeful years of naivety too. of expecting that if I plan for these things, these things will happen and that life is not going to derail me.
But what's so interesting is that I think personally, and I wonder kind of in my observations in clients, this is not evidence-based anecdote I will share.
I wonder if that five year planning, that two year planning actually drops off as we age.
Oh, yeah, surely. Because we actually get exposed to the fact that there is immense uncertainty.
We don't know what will happen. We've been hit by... waves of unexpected experiences that has knocked us in some ways out of the, like... what Ron Segal calls is the delusion of living.
The delusion of living. Yeah. So he referenced this actually with respect to exposure to grief. is that in life often we can be travelling along under the delusion that nothing bad will happen to me, for example, under the delusion that things will turn out okay.
Mm-hmm. And then we get exposed to some big life-changing experience. or even many small ones, and then we're no longer deluded that there is suffering and pain in life.
We have walked through the door to come to realize that pain exists here, that suffering exists here, and I'm now no longer deluded.
And that can bring with it a lot of struggle, but it also can bring with it freedom.
How does that make sense? That was good.
I'm trying to think of a real-life example.
Yeah. I think for me personally as an example of the delusion of the living is obviously when I was diagnosed. that has changed my perspective on health, of trusting... It's when you're diagnosed with breast cancer.
Yeah, with breast cancer. It has changed the perspective I have on assuming that my body is healthy.
Yeah. And that's the delusion. Yeah, gotcha.
So those experiences happen. potential to really knock you around, right?
So I could get, you know, if I'm not paying attention, I can get knocked around by health anxiety about worrying and checking, for example.
And that can pull us into, you know, a lot more despair.
But we can also sit with this like, aha, here is this gift here.
I'm no longer deluded that nothing bad can happen to my body, for example.
Yeah, I understand. Does that make sense?
So the... The breaking open of the finite nature of living, that we don't know what's going to happen, the uncertainty. can feel alarming and disarming, but it also can bring with it then this challenge.
Okay, well, so with this knowledge now, how do I show up?
Yeah. What do I do? Because now I can live knowing that this life will end.
I think it might be worth just saying that for those who haven't heard about your diagnosis, you are cancer-free now.
It's not a new diagnosis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry, I should have mentioned that. So kind of taking a bit of a sidestep at this point, I did want to mention around how we can reframe this period in a really hopeful way.
And there's, first of all, if we start off, I know that you've read From Strength to Strength by Arthur C. Brooks, and he has this great book, which is around, like really around midlife.
It's a great book. Yeah. And in the book, in the first few chapters, it can feel quite alarming because he basically says that –
On the surface, he says, your best days are gone in terms of creativity and what he calls or what is termed fluid intelligence.
Mm-hmm. And so fluid intelligence basically is like our ability to be fast problem solvers, to be creative, to come up with novel ideas. for abstract thinking and problem solving.
Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, it is quite alarming to read because you – obviously the only people really reading that book are in their midlife or after that.
And the first couple of chapters is just him saying like, explaining from a scientific evidence-based point, it's like whatever you do, your ability to do it well is declining.
It's declining, yeah. Yes, that's the initial message.
But he talks about that prime age for... of fluid intelligence is like 20s and 30s.
And if you look at all the people who've invented something, they're usually really young.
And so I think he gives the example of...
Mark Zuckerberg, for example, creating Facebook.
I think he was 20. Yeah, and then Einstein.
Yeah. I think Einstein's like three big – things were like within two years in his early thirties or something like that.
Yeah, exactly. And so like, if we look at the history of creation, um, of things being created.
Often it would have been based on this fluid intelligence.
But what we know from the research is that as we age, our fluid intelligence declines.
But what is so important to really recognise in here is that as that fluid intelligence is declining, there is the capacity for what's called crystallised intelligence to rise above it.
And it's the crystallized intelligence that he's referring to as moving from strength to strength.
So from fluid intelligence to crystallized intelligence.
And so crystallized intelligence is basically our ability to use the knowledge we've gained over our life, for example.
And that increases as we age. And that then invites us to think about, okay, so of course I don't want to suggest stop creating or, you know, give up your dreams for inventing something, for example.
But we can also really harness this strength here of crystallized knowledge.
And so it's got a link here into wisdom.
And there's an author and what's called the founder of the Modern Elder Academy in America.
His name's Chip Conley and he's done a lot of, he's written a lot of books and he's done a lot of work around enriching and enhancing this later part of life.
And he has this beautiful metaphor that instead of us thinking about midlife as a crisis, we can think of it instead as a chrysalis.
And so he, a chrysalis. So I'll explain what I mean by that.
So if you think about the lifespan of a butterfly, for the first half of its life, it's eating lots of food.
It's creating, eating lots of food, moving, plumping up.
And then in its middle life... it becomes a chrysalis or it, you know, I always think of the very hungry caterpillar.
It goes into its cocoon. Oh, yeah. And it sleeps in the darkness. with stillness and it's just being.
And this is what he's saying, is that this midlife is the chrysalis.
And it's from this chrysalis that we emerge as the butterfly.
And I think that's such a beautiful metaphor.
Marty would have been so happy when he thought of that.
Oh, yeah. Was he 20 when he thought of that?
Yeah, I know. Well, I don't believe he was.
But it's an incredibly beautiful and empowering message here and also the metaphor of the darkness and the stillness. that we do need to slow down to be able to notice. what is happening for us, to be able to reflect, to question and to be curious.
That is a state of stillness. And it's from that state of stillness that we can then move into generating, creating.
It might be that from that place, if we look at crystallised intelligence, is that we harness the strengths there of teaching, mentoring, supporting, nurturing.
How do we use what we have learned? what we have metabolized over our life, the lessons we have learned to be able to create something for the world or for the people in your life.
And could that mean, like to think of it in, you know, to give more sort of, I guess, practical...
I mean, some people do work as butterflies and that's going to be very helpful for them, for the people who aren't.
Literally butterflies. Could that mean like for someone in, I'm gonna start talking about something I don't understand, like someone in finance, for example. someone who's like working in finance and they're trying to like make lots of money and I don't know what they do.
But then in this time where they get older and they become the butterfly, is that about... are you saying that's about like using all the intelligence that they have from when they were in their first part of their life?
Yes. And maybe mentoring younger people or sharing their knowledge with other staff or whatever.
So in a working context, it could be that, but also that can be you know, if we really tune into it and access it, it can be through something like parenting or being an uncle or, like, how are we nurturing there with our knowledge?
How do you find those little moments there of being able to impart and mentor other people?
It's kind of like when people say giving back.
Is it a bit like that? Yes. It's a bit like, okay, well, I've been given so much from this industry or world or whatever and now this is my opportunity to – to pass on the knowledge or give back to the industry that looked after me or...
Yeah, and also to not underestimate the wisdom that you have.
I say this, wisdom is an interesting term. is an interesting concept because there's some conjecture in the research as to whether wisdom... just occurs because you age.
And most people would say that's actually not the case.
Wisdom is something that we have to be very intentional about.
So wisdom arises from... the learning of the life lessons.
So if you have continued on in the same patterns throughout your whole life, and you get to 90 and you haven't reflected or done any change or questioned why you did this, then we wouldn't necessarily call that wisdom.
So we could therefore have someone who's 30 who's wise.
And you might know people in your life who like they feel like a wise soul and And most often when you think about those people, even if they're like 25, for example, or younger...
It's usually because they're quite introspective or they've thought or they've reflected.
Does that make sense? Yes. You know how it sort of feels like as time has gone on, like, for example... it feels like at least the average age of when people have children has gotten older.
Has the... As the idea of midlife or the period of midlife, has that gotten older as well?
Yeah. It's got longer. It's got longer.
Yeah, okay. Yeah. And it's interesting. There is this research, quite famous research, and, again, there is some –
There's some questioning of this particular, the robustness of this research, but it's very commonly used to understand like happiness across the lifespan and it's called the U-shaped curve of happiness.
Are you familiar with this at all? No. So if you imagine the shape of a U, obviously, and your happiness level is at the top of the U, right?
So what that suggests is that across the lifespan happiness is peaking. until about early 20s.
So you're at your happiest up until the early 20s and then happiness levels decline and they drop out mid 40s.
Gotcha. And so the happiness level is sitting at the bottom of the U when you're in your mid-40s, around the midlife era.
And then the research suggests that once we come through this midlife period, that we tend to emerge into greater levels of happiness up again at the same level that we started.
So 50s, 60s and 70s is suggested that we will experience greater levels of happiness then.
Now, there's lots of reasons as to why that research suggests that's the case.
And again, it's a reference to the key tasks of midlife. the overwhelm, the exhaustion, the disappointments, the sorrows, the grief that can sit in there.
It also represents, again, what I mentioned before about the sandwich generation, that in this midlife situation, We may have children that we're caring for that are dependent upon us and at the same time we may also have ageing parents that we're caring for.
So there's this sense here of like, oh. This is a lot for me to hold.
But what I really want to emphasize in this is that, because I don't want to be completely like, oh my God, this period of time is terrible.
That the research suggests though, that despite the happiness levels being potentially at its lowest, and of course there are exceptions. that meaning is greatest during this period.
Really? Yeah. Which is potentially why you go shooting back up the U.
Yes. And so this is like, again, this is our invitation here is this is the time to uncover our questions of meaning and purpose.
That is so good to hear because it's like it feels like I was really – I was like, God, where is the – is the glimmer of hope yeah but that's amazing too if you can really like figure out what that is Yes.
And also the other thing in here is that happiness is also a mood state.
So it comes and goes. It is not like a destination we're trying to reach.
Again, from the point of view of acceptance and commitment therapy, it's never around attaining the... the everlasting feeling of happiness.
It's about what does create a life worth living.
That's meaning and purpose, connection to my values, engagement in fulfilling and satisfying pursuits and how you show up to that really.
Hey, Hugh and Josh. Later this year, we are touring a brand new live show around the country called Together Again.
We are. It's a brand new show. Brand new show.
It's kind of like if you loved a band, right?
And you've already seen them play live. You saw them a couple of years ago.
Oh, when they toured their first album? Toured their first album, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. And now they've written a whole new album with brand new songs and they're touring that.
The only problem is I want a band to play their best stuff from their first album.
So we're a bit different than them. yeah we're one of those bands that only plays the new album but it's a great album yeah but it's awesome yeah don't you stop mentioning the first album Out of interest to you, if we were a band, what would you call our band?
I was going to say Kings of Leon, but that's already enough.
So, yeah, so if you're interested in the Kings of Leon, then check out the Imperfects live show.
We're basically going to all major cities, aren't we?
Yep, Melbourne, Hobart, Adelaide. Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Canberra, Sydney, Perth, Geelong, you name it, we're going there pretty much.
If you love Sex on Fire, we're not going to play that, but we do have all new... stuff if you've seen this live this is completely different so we really hope to see you there go to livenation.com.au for tickets Josh, I'm just wondering, because you're not yet in your middle... Well, I guess you kind of technically isn't.
How old are you now? 38. 38, but you're probably about to hit the... the 40 but like are you looking at midlife going like are you nervous about it or is it not I don't know.
No, I think I'm already there. Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm already there.
Early adopter. Yeah. Yeah, I was there before it was cool.
Yeah, I think I'm already in it quite. Why is that?
Why do you? This is difficult. Sorry. Yeah, it's because life's pretty hard.
We don't have to go into it if you don't feel... No, no, that's okay.
It's... Yeah, I just... Sorry, I found this quite challenging.
Yeah. Is it something that we've been speaking about which has been particularly... It's...
It's just something I've been going through that I haven't really spoken about that is quite hard to listen to.
Yeah. You don't have to talk about it. I just...
I think there's been many, many things discussed today that have I've been kind of scared to be called upon.
I did not ask you this knowing that you'd have anything to say.
No, I was the opposite. I was thinking, I feel sorry for Josh because he's got nothing to contribute here because he's a spring chicken.
Yeah, I find it a really difficult topic because...
I've got some, I think, potentially broken ideas or... problematic ideas I think there's a issue with growing up that certain stimulus and stimuli that you get when you're younger don't give you the same satisfaction as you get older.
And you can find yourself quite lost and quite numb.
And that... And that you... And also this broken idea that I... along the way at some point that the best thing I can do as I get older is kind of get out of the way because to give space to my kids to grow rather than being too big.
Um, So navigating the second half of my life is an extremely challenging idea.
Um, And whether or not this next bit is left in the app or not, I think particularly why I'm finding it quite... challenging is that last week my psych said I've probably got depression or at least many of the things on the checklist.
And I am... It was terrifying to... hear that.
No one's ever told me that before. So despite that, I've probably been in a worse place in my life.
And I think just all of this is at a junction of challenging info.
And... Yeah. So I find it hard to know what is midlife and what is potentially symptoms of depression and untangling those things is difficult.
Yeah. That's really, really hard. Yeah. That's really hard.
Sorry to derail the chat. No, I think that, I think.
And I guess the thing that I find difficult is that In most aspects of my life, I've achieved a lot.
But if you were to ask me what... Accumulation of that wisdom or accumulation of achievement.
And to then spell out as wisdom, it doesn't feel like I have anything to offer.
And I'm not saying that because I want people to tell me otherwise, just...
It therefore looks, yeah, challenging. It's really painful and there's a lot of pain here as you're talking, yeah.
Yeah. And you know, whether this stays in or not Josh, like just to name that, That's really brave to name that because it brings you present to this feeling here.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. Like even as you're talking, like how's your sitting in your body as you're talking?
Uh, well, my heart's been racing for about 20 minutes.
Um, so it feels good to have let a little bit of it out.
Um, And it feels good. Yeah, it feels okay.
I didn't really want... Talking about this, I find very... I know the right things to talk about it, but there's a real reluctance too.
Like I want to... And I kept sort of during this conversation just wanting to sort of tend to go to the bathroom and just be alone.
Yeah. There's a yearning to be away from people.
It feels... Unknown feels not too precarious, but it feels like there's a, confronting it makes it bigger.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It makes it real.
It's here. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's really, really hard to notice and to name that it's here.
Yeah. And that this is your experience. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, so that's what I'm going through.
Josh, I think that what you're expressing here is... really, really normal and common and that your experience will be held by so many people.
Yeah. And in fact, like I think the bravery to say this, like is this real acknowledgement that this part of life too, is extremely hard.
It's extremely painful. And I think, you know, you said something there around maybe like the stimulus isn't working anymore.
And I think that often what happens in this time too is that the patterns that we may have been engaged in before may have really worked for us.
And got us to a certain point. But it's often in midlife that we're like, these aren't working for me anymore.
They're not giving me what I need. Or they're not taking me away from the pain anymore.
And so then if I don't have that, what do I have?
How do I sit with this? Um, and like you are not alone in that Josh.
Yeah. It's, it is a, it's an amazing, um, like raw, like kind of like reminder of how real this is, I think for lots of men particularly, and how hidden it probably is.
Because you definitely wouldn't have spoken about this if I didn't ask you.
And I don't know why I asked you. Like, I have no idea you're going through this.
Yeah. And I don't want anyone to think that I was trying to bring that out of you because I'd no I hadn't told anyone there's just something in me during that that was thinking I want an I want to know what... I never do that, really.
Maybe it's because I haven't spoken for 40 minutes.
I think it's also maybe representative of the assumptions that we have about how people are, that we assume that people are okay or we assume that this isn't affecting us.
But I think it's like, I mean, I think it's just like a thing that I really want to just acknowledge that We are a mental health podcast where we are encouraging people to be vulnerable and talk about things, but of course we don't talk about everything going on in our life and that's of course but like you wouldn't have spoken about that and you feel a little bit lighter Yeah, I think then you did, just even speaking... We might not get this in, but... Yeah, yeah.
Just to imagine all the men particularly... who aren't being directly asked, how are you feeling?
How are you going? And then so they're never really given the opportunity Because my sense then, Josh, was that like you couldn't skate over it because it burst out of you.
Yeah, yeah. You couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't have given an answer because it was yearning, yearning to come out.
Yeah. I just want to tell you how much I freaking love you.
I love you so much. I think you're an incredible, and this is not what you're asking for, and this is not going to do anything. to heal the pain that you're clearly going through but I just feel compelled to tell you that you are One of the most amazing people I've ever met.
Genuinely incredible person. I love you so much.
Thank you. And I'm here for you. Thanks.
Thank you, Ryan. Anytime before 11 p.m. And I need to get to sleep.
I guess I feel like it's important to say, and I think you implied this earlier, but that What is very confusing for me is that I think I've got the best job I could have ever imagined with the best people I could ever imagine to do it with.
And I've got the two best kids I could possibly imagined and the best wife I could possibly imagine.
Uh, So the most important things in my life, and they're in the other order, nothing brings me joy and happiness and fulfillment and meaning and purpose like... my wife and kids do, that I could still feel like this is very confusing. and very hard and it's not an indication of, it doesn't feel tethered to the reality of what is in my life.
And I feel it's important to say that for everyone in that group of people to know that.
I'm not going through a thing of questioning whether that's a midlife moment of questioning whether that's the stimulus that's giving me satisfaction.
That's not in question at all. It's just a confusing period to go through.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I got, I've been away for, I haven't seen you in three weeks and got back on the first time on yesterday.
I just felt, I just felt something. Okay.
There was a disturbance in the falls. We'll take that bit out.
That's fine. No, I definitely felt something and I... We had dinner at your place last night and I...
It was like, for some reason, very hard to ask you if you're okay.
I just didn't. Yeah. It just felt a bit.
No, I love you so much. Thank you. I love you so much.
Yeah, well, there's not a lot of space to have these conversations.
When, when we see each other over a dinner with, you were, had three kids.
I had opportunities. I definitely had opportunities last night.
There's three times like us now, us now.
Um. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm also just... Maybe we can leave it all in, but maybe... I'm just kind of... sometimes I feel like my role in well not role but sometimes I feel like over the years in this show I've been the the downer one, and I'm kind of sick of that and didn't want to do it again, but yeah.
Oh, you've... Here I am. You've... Yeah.
Yeah. I just noticed, like, as you were talking, like, my heart breaks for you, George.
Mm. Because... I think like I'm not as close obviously like I don't get to see you as much um But what feels so hard is that to hear is that everyone in this room knows like how worthy you are of love.
And it feels so heartbreaking to feel that you don't feel that for yourself yet.
Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Or not right now. Yeah.
Yeah. So I don't know how we go to the next bit.
It couldn't be. From here. It's not a sidestep or it's not a –
Change in direction. It is like what you've just said.
It's the very essence of what Em is talking about and where people find themselves.
And it's the greatest... I know it's a weird thing to say, but I feel like this is the greatest gift you might give our listeners.
I really do. Yeah, because we can joke about the midlife crisis and say like go out and get a car or like they're off having an affair or, you know, so-and-so is like having a moment.
You know, we can joke about that and we can make light of that.
That's fine. But underneath it is a very real struggle and a very real pain here for people many many people for all of us at some point and so I think you know really kind of giving this space feels so important.
Um, and equally like for all of us giving ourselves space to honor just how hard this is.
And to like in that stillness, like if we talk about that slowing down in that stillness.
So when you do that and you become kind of exposed to all the internal workings of the mind and the body is how do I... be okay with this pain being here?
How do I have the pain? And also still move forward in the direction that's important to me.
And that's a real challenge and I think we cannot do it on our own.
We cannot do it on our own. It feels to me also like it's a very – what you revealed really highlights a lot of what I'm saying around this stage of life is like you are –
I think we feel like at this stage of our life, it's not about me anymore.
Like it's about the kids and it's about...
That's the feeling I've always had. It's not about me anymore.
And that's part of the grief, I reckon, because in your 20s, everything's about you and as a kid.
And so in fitting with that, when something does go wrong, you don't want to make anything about you and you don't.
And so you feel like, just the same before, I've got wife and kids and job.
I love all of it. so again it's buried further beneath this it's not about me and also i shouldn't be feeling this so um You are doing exactly what Em said you need to do in that you is like you are really leaning into that.
Like you're exploring it with your therapist and sharing it with us.
Yeah, it's probably worth mentioning I'm like trying really hard on this.
Yeah. Like I... Yeah. I'm going to a therapist.
I'm putting a lot of things in place. I'm trying to, I haven't been feeling right for about six months.
So I've been like. digging deeper into it and trying my hardest because, um, yeah, there's too much that I too much goodness in life that I want to be able to embrace and feel. to the maximum amount and get the most out of and give the most to.
So I bring this up on the podcast and I hadn't told...
You guys, because it's last busy and I only heard these words last week, but I'm trying my hardest and facing it as much as I can.
And there are things happening that are helping.
Yeah. Can I ask you, what did it mean? Because I think this is a really – this will be an experience that feels very –
What does it mean that depression was used, that word?
What does that mean? Well, when it was first said to me, I was terrified.
What would it indicate? Well, to me it was a fear of a permanent, might become a permanent state and that there's something wrong with me.
Yeah. And I said that to the really good psychologist who then we delve deeper into it.
And by the next morning it was probably better because it felt like, okay, now maybe Maybe now you know what it is, you can do something.
There are things that can be done that will help.
Mm-hmm. So it felt more like a... I was able to start to think of it more as a... as a opportunity to grow as opposed to a diagnosis that I'm stuck in.
It's kind of like I've always been afraid of insomnia because I'm like, if I go start to lose sleep, it might stick and I'll never be able to sleep again.
Yeah, yeah. And there was a bit of a fear about that with depression.
And I think... But thus far it's been a motivating factor to start putting things in place that I've been unable to before and that's been good.
Yeah. As I said, I'm very lucky that I've got so much goodness in my life that there's a lot... For me, it feels like there's a lot of... reason to do it for um i'm not sure i've been a point where i'm doing it for myself but doing it for others and to make sure i can engage with them and be there for them and not get out of the way Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's a challenging one. Yeah. But it's totally the wrong idea, but...
Yeah, that's something I need to think about and talk about and write. discover a lot more because the kind of adult and person I want to be in the second half of my life, I don't know what that is.
So, yeah, that needs some exploration, I think.
I don't think I quite understand if you're comfortable explaining how to get out of the way.
Um, like when I see you last night, like it was one of my favorite things I've ever seen.
It was like going outside and seeing you on the trampoline, making the What was the bridge you made for them?
Yeah. Tickle Tunnel. Tickle Tunnel and bridges.
Yeah. It was a game we got with the kids.
And you're on the trampoline and all like my three kids, your two kids were, um, taking turns to go into the tickle tunnel. like you were leading the charge as far as fun and joy was to be had in like what do you mean get out of the way It's not getting out of the way now, but it's that if I was to... For some reason, the... of like a balloon.
Say my life is a balloon and I've spent the first half of it filling up that balloon and then as my kids grow there's a little balloon start there and as their balloon starts to grow my needs to shrink at the same size so I'm not competing with their space and that they don't grow up with a... father figure that is too, this is what, and I don't know that this, that the that it doesn't allow them space to be the person that they need to be because I'm taking up too much space with too big a... ego and personality and size that doesn't allow them to be the natural progression of things that one day I will get smaller and die and allow them to continue on as opposed to a always luminous, large, figure that doesn't allow them to become the adult that they need to be.
So I'm not saying it's now. I'm saying it's like a gradual process that starts from this moment on till death.
Yeah. And I did, yeah, I don't know. So I'm wary that I'm not your psychologist and so I don't want to – there's some really, really important things in what you're saying there and I'm just going to leave that for your therapist because I don't want to overstep the mark there.
Yeah. I think maybe what kind of comes out of that too in terms of like how do we work with this?
One of the things I think that really bears paying attention to is are the stories that we've carried about ourselves, so the stories we tell ourselves, particularly around identity and worthiness.
And how our task is in some ways now to also really examine how tightly held these stories are about us, whether they're good or bad. and how we can in some ways loosen the grip on those stories, the stories that might be things like particularly things like around marriage people pleasing for example my worth is only in this space if I'm doing this or even attachment to labels like attachment to identity as, for example, identity as a psychologist.
If I'm so tightly attached to this identity as a psychologist, what happens when I retire?
Mm-hmm. If I'm so tightly attached to being a podcaster, if I'm so tightly attached to my role as a lawyer, for example, when we put all of our identity down, And it's wrapped entirely so tightly around this one thing.
There's no room for error. There's no room for loss.
And it leaves us really vulnerable to a lot of distress.
And so I guess, you know, this is... I can't offer what I would do in therapy around working with the stories.
That's really intensive work. Um, or it can be, but my invitation here is to ask yourself, what are the stories I carry about myself?
And if I hold onto these really tightly, does it serve me?
Does it serve me in the direction of my values?
Is it helping or is it hindering me? And if it's hindering me, if it's getting me stuck or there's a lot of pain attached to these stories, then yeah we need we need to do this with other people to get some support and like I wholeheartedly commend you on like on you doing that.
Like of putting, like really putting your hat in the ring.
Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be good. It's going to be really good and I'll be better for it, but I'm right in it at the moment.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry I didn't ask you yesterday.
No, it's fine. It's okay. There really wasn't much space.
You were too busy in the tickle tunnel. Yeah, it was pretty crazy last night.
Yeah. So I wonder if it might be useful to have a look at, so how do we work in this period of time?
Like how do we... work with the struggle that is present, that's going to be present for so many of us And there are a whole host of different ways in which we can approach this.
Some of them will feel... trivial and some of them might just feel like fluff on top of what we've just been speaking about.
But I will mention them in a minute. Part of that yes is what I said before, being really able to tune into this internal environment and to ask ourselves, what are the stories that we carry within ourselves?
And how helpful is it for me to continue to hold on to them so tightly?
So that's, yes, one of them. Looking at what my inner critic is telling me, um, bringing in a compassionate voice.
And I've spoken about self-compassion before and It can feel very, very tricky, very difficult to be compassionate when you feel – when you're being really hard on yourself and you feel like there are things I could be doing but I'm not doing them –
All the stuff the story says. But if you can't offer yourself some compassion, even if you were for a moment to close the eyes.
And I'm just going to invite you to bring to mind someone who loves and cares for you very much.
And to imagine that you could hold really tenderly. the words of their support for you.
It might be, I love you. I love you just as you are.
I'm here for you. I see you. And just to imagine that there's this sense here of having an arm wrapped around you.
And holding this here, this image of someone else in your life showing up for you in this way, And then whenever you're ready, coming back into the room.
How is that doing then? Yeah, I was just hanging out with my mum.
That's nice. Yeah. That's nice. And if there's – it might feel really hard, I want to acknowledge.
Like sometimes that inner critic can kind of come in and say –
Like, I don't deserve it. I don't deserve your love.
It can have a lot to say back to that. And we can just notice, I know I hear you.
I hear you, critic. So we can acknowledge and name that.
But if it feels too difficult, it might just to be just to even keep your eyes open, even just to hear what you've said.
That can be a start, a stepping stone into that.
Because like I've spoken about before with self-compassion, it opens the door to our pain.
It doesn't cause it, but it reveals it. Because it reveals the suffering that's been here.
It reveals what we have lost or haven't had before.
And it reveals our yearning, like our deep yearning in there too.
It's a tricky thing. There are so many wonderful resources there around self-compassion.
I will point absolutely to Kristen Neff and Christopher Germer. and Paul Gilbert as three very prominent researchers who offer also online programs, which are amazing.
So that is just an invitation there around self-compassion work.
And I also want to give a shout out. I've never done this.
I want to give a shout out to my supervisor, Regina Gerlach, who is the most incredible psychologist I've ever encountered. and she runs online mindful self-compassion programs.
I don't know if I'm meant to be paid for this.
She hasn't even mentioned it to me. You should look into it if you get paid for this.
This is not an ad. This is just a genuine...
A genuine recommendation. And there are other people out there in the psychology world who will offer group programs for self-compassion, for example.
And so like that's a wonderful way, entry point into doing some of this work is to do it with a program online with a group of people.
That can be a really great start. So there's that.
That's to help us with the overwhelming emotions that are here.
So there's kind of several aspects that we want to have a look at is how we work with the internal dialogue.
So what are the thoughts that are pushing us around?
How can we change our relationship to those thoughts?
The second thing is obviously working with our emotions.
So how can we work with the pain in a way that allows us to keep moving?
The other thing is we can obviously look at actions.
So what can we be doing to start to kind of uncover what's meaningful to us, how to find and connect with purpose? and how to have this pain but still be moving in the direction of what's important.
Making space and room for stillness is really, really important.
And I know I've mentioned this several times, it's kind of been a bit of a theme, but without the space to pause, we...
We cannot change habits. We cannot reflect on patterns.
Whether it's, let's just say you go for a walk. with your dog with no headphones in for 15 minutes, silence, nothing else.
That's exposure to this internal environment, right?
So it doesn't have to be meditation. It can be just no other stimulus.
Let me be in tune with what's here. Okay.
So that's one thing. Think about like this is kind of a bit of a more of a playful point of view.
It's kind of bringing in both connection to the old and into the new.
So when you were little, what did you love to do?
Was there a hobby or an activity that you engaged in that was just fun or enjoyable?
Does anything come to mind? I'm playing deck cricket with Josh.
That's a good one. Yeah. That's deck cricket.
Good. Oh, God. No one was mistaken. I did not even cross over.
Oh, wow. No, I just remember because one day I said to you, I can't wait.
I said to you. You said to who, me? Yeah.
I said to you, I can't wait to one day be sitting on your deck with you having a beer.
And you said, is there a deck? Well, it was an intimate moment.
I thought it was worth terrifying. LAUGHTER
Sorry. Yeah. Good. So thinking about like what did I used to do that I haven't been doing for a long time?
It could be – and these are the things that are just – for fun's sake, like there's no outcome attached to them.
I mean, unless you're scoring the deck cricket, but essentially, you know, How can I engage in these acts of play?
I know I spoke quite a long time ago around play and how important that is for adults and it's really particularly important in this midlife period.
I recently, this is a pretty unique activity and probably not many people will relate to this, but I just started playing golf.
And I realized, and I only started, I got some lessons and I only started learning like probably six months ago or something.
And I realised when I was doing it that it's probably the first thing in the longest time that I can remember.
Yeah. It's the first like kind of hobby or thing that I've learned to do that isn't for my work.
Yes. Or for like bettering myself, you know, it's not like, it's not exercise.
I mean, it is, but it's the, It's learning a skill that is purely for the sake of the hobby and the activity itself.
Weirdly, I just never do those things. And how does it feel?
The best. I love it. I have... The best clubs that a beginner could possibly have.
And yeah, I definitely, I'm really enjoying it.
That is like such a great example and I also really want to emphasise that it's there for the playfulness and learning for learning's sake and it requires...
Two things, openness and curiosity, and they are the two critical ingredients in this period of life, is openness and curiosity.
Yeah, the value of being a beginner again.
Yes. I feel like we get too comfortable with wanting to be good at everything.
Yes. And mastering something really good at it, I do feel like we need to be beginners.
Absolutely. And I think what can be this like myth around this age or this era is Is that, well, I've pretty much like finished my learning here.
I've just got to capitalize on what I've already learned.
No, this is absolutely not the case. And if we look at like people in retirement who are flourishing, they're the people that are being active. that are trying new things, that is keeping the brain alive, engaged, stimulated, that no matter what age we are... novel, new, beginner stuff is so, so uplifting and energising.
So sometimes I'll talk to my clients around...
I don't know, just like what hobbies could we come up with just to try them, not to seek out a purpose, not to... become a pottery master or something, but what is it like to be a beginner?
What is it like to be curious? What is it like to be interested?
Who else can you meet when you do this? What other doors is this opening up for you?
And so the trouble with this is that it requires stepping out of our habitual patterns.
It requires us to sit with some discomfort.
I think I spoke maybe a little while ago about my foray into strength training at the gym and how uncomfortable and disliking I was of it at the beginning.
Now, totally fine. Now I can walk into any gym and I was like, I know how to use that.
No problem. But it took the sitting with the discomfort and the real dislike.
And the grunting men. And the grunting men. to be able to do this new thing and now I feel like I really enjoy it.
Isn't it a great feeling? Yeah. Like, oh, I'm comfortable here now.
Exactly. I was uncomfortable, now I'm comfortable.
Exactly. And this is the thing is that the trying of the new thing requires us to be in that uncertain place.
The place of not knowing how to do this thing.
So yeah, here is his invitation around reconnecting with something that you used to love doing.
And again, it can be really silly. It can be like roller skating or like...
I was talking with my son actually about going to like the local roller skating rink.
And I was like, I used to go to the place in Nutterwadding for parties on my rollerblades all the time.
And I don't think he's necessarily that keen, but I go, I will definitely go.
That'll be really fun. But it's like, how do you re-engage with the parts that felt meaningful or... or joyful to you at that time, but also then, like, how do we bring in the new?
It always makes me think of... mature age students at uni and how much shit we used to give them as like a 19, 20-year-old at uni, like, oh...
Bloody mature age students at the front like asking the questions.
Losers. And they're like, now I get it. Yeah.
Like you show up to learning now, like in this midlife, and you're showing up because you have wanted or thought about or been curious about this thing new thing for a while potentially.
Oh, it's funny, isn't it? I'm here because I really, really want to be.
Yeah, I go through moments of thinking like, God, I could do a subject at uni.
How cool would that be? I could choose anything.
Jam did a landscaping course a couple of years ago during COVID and she was back at uni but learning all this amazing stuff.
It was just really cool. Yeah, yeah, and I think that we forget that we have a choice and that we have an opportunity to keep trying new things.
And that that can expose us then also to a greater meaning and purpose and a discovery like, wow, this is actually something really interesting to me.
Do you think of anything, Josh? Nothing's jumping out, but I'm excited about the idea of trying to find something.
Yeah. I was thinking about learning a new instrument recently.
But, yeah, I think I'll keep thinking because it feels like maybe something completely different might be interesting outside of a skill set that I have.
Yeah. For some reason that time I was thinking of you as a furniture maker.
Yeah, I mean, well, that's always been like... That would be hard for you.
Yeah, well, that's like I've often thought if I did it completely different in a new life, like furniture making.
Really? Yeah. If I said make a couch today.
I thought I told you that. Maybe you have.
Maybe that's why I'm thinking it. Yeah, I assume that's why you brought that up.
You can make a couch now. Go on then. But I think you're on to something there though, really importantly.
Working with your hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what I love about it. And just something about timber as well is really soothing.
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so maybe who's to say that that life hasn't passed for a start?
Mm-hmm. Like we could even potentially look at the barriers to that.
So is that my mind saying that that's too hard or I can't do that?
Or there might be some very reasonable barriers like time and money, for example.
I can totally get that. Yeah. But we can also like, can we pause to question like, is that life actually past?
Like, is that another life? Or is this actually something that maybe I could think about pursuing?
Yeah. You know, what also kind of sits alongside the idea, for example, of working with your hands is also the importance of being in nature.
And actually, Lauren Zonfrillo talked about being in nature in terms of moving with grief.
And I think that being in nature and exposure to awe in particular can be very, very grounding and very... calming and uplifting when we're in a space of real struggle so you know whether this is For example, like going for a walk in the bush with nothing in your ears.
Maybe it's just sitting and recognizing. the enormity of the world and I'm one small part of it.
So kind of this exposure here to there is something greater here than me.
That can also be a very helpful avenue or pathway to help us move through this part of life.
Well, Josh, thank you. I mean, Em, thank you.
Sorry, Em, thank you so much for that. And also for taking us to a place where Josh was able to share that. well I am really sorry for unknowingly putting you on the spot like that but I am also kind of glad that that happened because I'm just... I'm glad that we now know.
I just... It... It's obviously so much more helpful when you know the person that you love is struggling more than they would normally be struggling.
And so I'm happy that it happened. Well, thank you for being good listeners and being there.
Yeah, there's a lot to say. I feel like we should kiss now or something.
Buy some dick cricket. Jeez. Wow. I'll take that out.
Yeah. Potentially. But thank you. And I hope I didn't derail your rep too much, Em.
You did such a beautiful thing. Yeah. Well done.
Thank you. We love you, Josh. Love you guys.
Oh. Come on. Bummer, Q. Bring it in. Bring it in.
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The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Kylenburg, Ryan Shelton and Josh van Kylenburg.
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This episode was filmed by George Martin and edited by Jamison Moore.
