My name's George and I edit The Imperfects.
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I wanted to talk about goal setting.
What sits inherently with goal setting is change.
This is sort of a side of goal setting that I really had never thought about.
I've never had a great relationship with goal setting.
I've always had a fear of failure, I think.
We want to think about the tone with which we set the goals.
Are we setting the goals about promoting and cultivating certain behaviours that we value, or are we trying to eliminate something?
Instead of saying I want to spend less time on my phone, it's like I want to spend more time building Lego.
Yes.
I've got one for you.
Yeah, great.
Go for it.
I cannot achieve this.
I want to so desperately.
Be in bed by 930 mic drop quick.
Is anyone here a doctor?
Yes, her name is dr emily and she's a psychologist.
Please, welcome to the imperfect, our very own psychologist.
Welcome em.
Thank you very much.
Do do ryan josh and i?
Do we really look like we're from melbourne right now?
Yes, you do.
Why?
Because we're wearing dark blues and greys.
And I'm from the sunny state.
Yes.
Yeah, you are.
Perthians, Western Australians often wear white.
True?
Well, I mean, it makes sense from a practical point of view.
It's hotter, sunnier.
Yeah, it reflects the light.
What are Perthians called?
What's the term?
Perthalods?
Oh, yeah.
Perthalods?
What is a Perth?
I mean, Perthites?
I don't know.
I think Perthians, maybe.
Perthians.
I mean, this is not to put any light or laugh on a list, but to call them a Perthian.
Perthin.
Perthin.
Perthin's probably not right, is it?
I don't think we can say Perthin.
I think we can.
No, we're not.
We're absolutely.
Obviously, I wasn't laughing at the lisp.
I was laughing at how close it is to saying like Perthin.
Perthin, yeah.
I mean, that's why I thought.
That's the funny bit.
Yeah.
Do you find that?
– so last night we had dinner at Josh's place and I haven't told you this yet, but I was wearing my brand new ball and jumper and Augie, your three-year-old or two-year-old, sort of gestured for me to come over because I thought he wanted help with something.
And I got over there and I bent down and went, yes, buddy.
And he just wiped his like pizza hands all over my jumper.
Oh.
And then he just turned the other way like that's actually what he wanted to call it.
He just wanted the clean fabric.
Yeah.
That sounds like him.
Yeah.
Or just people in all the Perthans wearing white.
Yeah.
I just don't issue with kids because they do.
That is true.
So when you have something new and white, it's just like.
A magnet.
Oh.
Yeah.
What's the saying?
It is.
A magnet.
A magnet.
And there's another one.
Red rag to a bull.
Yes.
Yep.
Well, we should welcome our incredible person who's here, Dr. Emily.
And for those who don't know, this is a strange start to an episode, isn't it?
For those who don't know, Dr Emily comes on every month and you will find an episode from the past, an old Imperfects episode.
Pick out a theme or a topic and expand on it in a more clinical way.
And we're very, very lucky to have you with us every single month, considering the book tours you've been doing, the books you've been selling, Unstuck available now.
Yeah.
Now, today, Dr. Emily, what episode are we going to look back on?
Yes.
Well, I actually wanted to go back to Chrissy Swann's episode.
Oh, great.
Yeah, from almost a couple of years ago, I think.
That was a huge episode.
Yeah.
And...
I mean the grab that I'm going to use for this particular one is not necessarily entirely going to encapsulate what I wanted to talk about, but I wanted to talk about goal setting.
And the reason that I reflected upon her episode was because of what sits inherently with goal setting is change.
And you know, in her episode what she so kind of beautifully shared was this process of change that occurred for her after a lot of reflection and from a place of some suffering too.
We would spend every summer with her brother and her sister and whatever other neighbourhood kids we could find, and make a whirlpool because it was round.
And I felt and I... It was like a cooperation.
No-one could break it.
No-one could stop because then it would ruin the flow.
But eventually, after half an hour of all of us working together, we could...
And the whirlpool would continue.
This is incredible.
It was amazing.
But I felt like my life for a long time was me just going along with what everyone wanted and floating and feeling like I couldn't say no.
I want to go in a different direction, or I want to get out, or there's an icy pole with my name on it inside in the deep freeze and I'm going to dig around in the chest freezer.
And I was just like, yeah, no, this is fine.
This is great.
We're all doing what we need to do and I'm not going to upset the apple cart.
But I think there comes a time and I'm so fortunate that there did come a time for me where I couldn't stand the floating anymore.
I couldn't stand it.
So how long ago was that?
I started to change around four years ago, started to question it because I kind of I was 45 and I went okay, let's have a look.
I reckon I'm halfway, if I'm lucky.
Halfway?
To dying.
I reckon I'm halfway through my life.
Let's say, best case scenario, 90%.
Do I – because things were just going to stay the same.
Things stay the same.
That's the way it goes.
Unless you consciously do something.
Yeah, unless you get out and get an icy pole.
That analogy is stunning.
It's a beauty.
The setup and everything.
Is it?
Absolutely.
Wonderful.
And I went –
Am I happy with this going on the way it is?
Am I happy with who I am with other people?
Am I happy with who I am for me?
What do I want to change?
And then I started to walk and I get emotional thinking about it, because walking has absolutely changed my life.
Really?
Yep.
Every day you walk, yeah.
Every day I walk and there's, you know, I now say if there's anything troubling me, It's hard to make changes and look at stuff, you know, and you don't want to do it.
You want to stay in the whirlpool because it makes everybody happy.
But if I nowadays I'm so attuned and if something feels wrong, I call, I say I'm going to walk on it.
And sometimes that takes an hour.
Sometimes it takes 10 kilometres every day for a month.
But I get the answer.
In the end.
That's beautiful.
It is.
And now I'm obsessed with, like reading books about walking, because it's really changed my life and I want someone else to tell me that it has changed my life and it has.
Love that.
So you know, I think at the heart of that is this acknowledgement about how hard change is, but that at some point staying in the same place is no longer bearable.
And, you know, inherent in that obviously is, well, how do we move?
And I thought it was actually a really beautiful metaphor, the notion of walking, because what that is is actual literal movement.
And so often in the work that I do and that we do as therapists, is also around like how do we start moving forward, whether it's with the tiniest of steps or big leaps?
And so I just thought it was such a beautiful metaphor to this notion that she walked her way out.
And yes, there are all these other actual, obvious physical benefits to the walking specifically.
But to use that as a metaphor is like how do I find a way to walk and to move?
I think is a really nice place to start when we talk about goal-setting.
I think whenever you're doing something new or maybe it's you decide you want to be fit or start eating a more wholesome diet, whatever it is, the first step always feels like such a big thing to do.
Yeah, it is.
Absolutely.
And if it was easy, then we wouldn't have, you know, podcasts on goal setting.
There wouldn't be a million books devoted to habit change, or you know 10 steps to doing this particular thing.
It's because it's really tricky.
Yeah.
And so I think the more informed we are about how we go about the change process, obviously the better.
And one of the big things that comes with that is preparing for change, anticipating the barriers and also the supports for change.
So we can talk about that like in more depth today.
But I'm just curious, you know, from your point of view like, what's your experience of like specifically, goal setting?
What kind of shows up for you as we talk about that?
The thing that gets in the way of me setting like actively setting a goal or saying out loud to someone or to myself that I'm going to do this thing, is the fear of not doing it and then failing.
So it's like, well, if I set the goal, then I'm setting myself up to fall.
Yeah.
So there's a risk there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I've never had a great relationship with goal setting.
I've always sort of avoided it.
And I think it's very similar in that I've always had a fear of failure, I think of not meeting that expectation of getting there.
Having said that, I guess the gig that I did last year was very much like a public goal.
So that was very, I think, counter to... That was very abnormal for me, I think, in my life.
But ever since, like...
There was something I think as a teenager who played a lot of sport and didn't necessarily always have the greatest sort of sport coaches the way they talked about goals and the way that it was always framed to me I really didn't like and it was always very kind of winners and losers and hyper-competitive and so that kind of turned me off from the start.
So I've never really with the exception of that thing last year I've never.
I don't think I've ever really set a goal.
Yeah.
I have like targets for running and training, but I don't, yeah, so I guess they're goals.
Yeah.
And they're very specific.
Yeah.
And they're all broken down into little things and those little things that feed them.
Yeah.
I don't have any goals specifically.
I don't really have many other goals in the area of my life, I don't think.
We had like one for our – one of our kids with – that we spoke about with the neurodivergence is like we wanted to be healthy and happy at school.
That was like a goal that everyone in this child's support team were working towards.
So there was that one.
But apart from that, not really.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think sometimes we can –
Maybe even not recognise that we're actually setting goals or setting intentions even.
Because really what we're looking at here is like changing or shaping behaviour, really.
And that goal setting can be a pathway to that.
Mm.
Mm.
And we can be very intentional about that.
In fact, if we look at the likelihood of change occurring, it happens more likely when we kind of undergo this process of reflection and like intentional action.
So I thought what we could do today is have a look at, so what is goal setting?
How do we go about it?
And also really pay attention to some of those barriers.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so when we think about change, the yearning for change is showing up from a place of some sort of dissatisfaction or some sort of discomfort or some pain boredom unfulfillment, something like that.
That's kind of.
The first point tonight is that when we're in this place of discomfort, we want to change something.
However, like the laws of homeostasis tell us to stay the same, that staying the same is actually safer because it's familiar.
Yeah.
But the problem is that what is safe and familiar is not necessarily helpful.
So it's like we always get pulled back to what we know.
We always get pulled back into this comfort zone because it feels familiar.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's much, much easier to stay there, even if staying there is actually really harmful.
The thing that's coming up for me there is when I apply it to – myself, I think like well, it feels safer, but it doesn't feel inspiring.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's like committing to something that I know I'll be able to do.
Ultimately, I'm not going to be like moved or inspired by it in the same way that I will.
Something that's challenging.
Exactly.
Because there's no growth in staying the same.
There's no growth in staying in the same place unless we're really again like, really intentional about it.
So it would be like really common examples would be things like staying in the same job even though you're really bored, because this is known and it's familiar and it's safe.
But the cost of that is like if we stay in there permanently, continue to stay in there is that we will feel not only unfulfilled but possibly lost disconnected, disengaged and seek out other ways which may not always be very helpful to make us feel better.
So that's just one example of like staying in somewhere familiar.
I mean, staying in relationships is a big one, obviously because it is known, it is familiar and therefore it feels safe and taking the risk to take the change would feel too overwhelming.
It makes sense that we stay with what we know.
This is sort of a side of goal setting that I really had never thought about it this way and thinking about it in terms of change.
I wouldn't always equate goals to.
I would equate goals to just like setting yourself the task to do something and then doing that thing, as opposed to a goal being connected to change in some way.
It feels much more exciting.
Ah, yeah, okay, interesting.
And so it might feel exciting, it might also feel daunting too.
Daunting, yeah, or daunting, yeah.
So I wonder, when we look at goal setting, whether we might actually take a bit of a pivot here to get there.
And I wanted to start off actually looking at a strength based approach to change.
And I think so often in like in the space of wellbeing and in the space of therapy and in mental health work, is that we will often focus on our deficits and work to try and change the deficits or work with the weaknesses.
But I think in a lot of circumstances change is really very well prompted and supported when we can bring into the world, into our sphere of living, awareness of our strengths.
And there's a really wonderful online tool that you can use.
It's called the VIA, which is Values in Action. and it ranks your strengths from 1 to 24.
It's a free online tool.
I'm not being paid by anyone to say this.
It's called, the website for this is authentichappiness.org.
You have to register yourself and then you can go and work out what your strengths are based on this questionnaire.
Whoa.
Well, it's developed by our mate.
Other People Matter Chris Peterson and, I'm pretty sure, in Martin Seligman.
So part of Chris Peterson, who was a positive psychologist, researcher and academic, he did a lot of work around, you know, in the positive psychology field, around really identifying the parts of living that allow us to flourish and that strengths.
Identifying strengths is a really important part of that.
So they have this online tool that you can use that can help you identify what your strengths are.
I think it's a really useful place to start.
I can't wait to do that.
I'd love to know what my strengths are.
Well, interesting.
So this is really interesting.
So let's just say one of the strengths could be courage.
Let's say you get that at the bottom of the list.
Now we wouldn't call, like I personally wouldn't call that a weakness.
I would say that that is your least strong part.
But the really great thing about this work is that we can then look at how do I use my strengths to strengthen these ones.
Let's just say one of my strengths is being empathic.
How could I use empathy to strengthen my strength of bravery?
Yeah.
And that might mean bringing in empathy for myself when I'm having a hard time trying something new, for example.
There are many other examples that we could think of, but I think importantly, what I want to emphasize is it's not about identifying strengths and weaknesses.
It's actually just really about identifying what is the strongest parts here and how can I really use these in a way that will help me move forward.
Then, like with that process, I think what sometimes can be really, really helpful is to stay in the strengths for a moment.
And so if you were to identify what your strengths were like, let's just say like maybe the top three is even to think back on the times when that strength has really helped you.
So how have you drawn upon that strength to get you through a difficult time in the past?
Or how has this strength helped other people?
So in essence, like what's the narrative around this strength in my life?
So I'm just curious, like off the top of your head, would you have a sense as to what your strengths would be?
Well, I've done it before.
You have?
But not for a while, so maybe it's changed.
I don't know.
Do you remember?
Yeah, my number one was… 400 metres.
Number two was in-swing bowling.
To love and be loved was number one.
Love, yeah.
Yeah, wow.
How do you feel like that's shown up in your life as a strength?
I was definitely helped with connection, like I connect to people very easily.
Because of that, I think.
I think it can be also really interesting to ask other people how you think you've seen my strength.
Because I am imagining, like if you were to ask everyone else here about how they think your strength has been used, I'm sure that, like you guys could come up with something.
It's a hard one to answer myself.
Yeah.
But there's examples every day.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a particular kind of therapy called narrative therapy and one of the –
And I'm not highly skilled in this area, so this is not necessarily my area of expertise.
But what I am aware of is the fact that in narrative therapy, what we're working with is what's called like the dominant story.
And the dominant story is often all the unpleasant stories that we tell ourselves.
That has defined our lives.
So we're dominated by this story about ourselves.
And what we want to bring to light is the story that has been running parallel to, that we haven't been able to pay attention to or that we haven't been able to bring into the light.
And I think this strength-based approach really helps us to do that.
There could be an invitation, for example, to think back on writing a story from the perspective of your strengths.
So seeing if you can find milestones or small moments where my strengths have really helped me or helped other people.
So thinking about your life with the strengths being like the main theme.
Yeah.
Rather than it being a deficit story.
Yeah.
Rather than it being like a story of like how you overcame this struggle.
Yeah.
I guess it could be if the way you overcame it is the strength.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That'd be really interesting.
One of them is humour and playfulness.
And if that's not your strength, I'll eat my socks.
We'll listen to top three.
God, I really haven't thought of strength.
It'll be a very special bonus episode where he winks his own socks.
Now there is a bit of an overlap between strengths and values and that can feel a little bit unclear perhaps.
Let's say you have a value of courage, being courageous, but perhaps it's not your strength.
So you might really value...
Hold a lot of value in being courageous.
And you might really deeply admire people who are courageous, but it may not be a strength.
I mean that's really interesting because when I was coming up with my values, I came up against that a lot and it actually took me quite a while to figure out what my values were, because I would often I would think like oh, it's almost like I wanted that to be my value and I couldn't quite figure out where it was like well, is that just me being honest with myself, or am I just being, like aspirational?
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
Well, I think that's a good question.
I think, I mean, they're deeply personal for a start and chosen by you.
So if you choose them because they resonate with you, then that's a value, even if it's not a strength.
So even if you're not acting consistently with it.
And, in fact, like that's the heart of the work that we're doing often, is that usually distress is arising when we're not living in accordance with our values.
It doesn't mean that we value them any less, but they may not be a strength.
Yeah, I mean, the good thing is it's kind of like the values that I have.
Like one of them in particular is like it's often pushed me into, it's encouraged me to behave in a way that I would often not usually do or I would restrict myself from doing because I'm for whatever reason.
I'm acting in accordance with my values.
Look at me.
What a legend.
Yeah.
And I think you kind of highlight something there that's really relevant, and that is that strengths are obviously like a muscle.
So we can build them and train them and strengthen them.
So you know you could take the VIA a number of times and we would see quite possibly, if you're really intentional about it that those that ranking may change.
Mm-hmm.
So it's not set in stone.
These are very malleable things that we can work on.
It may be just something really useful to kind of check in with every now and then.
Like if I've been setting goals or if I've been really deliberate about making change and working on one particular thing, for example, like let me have a look and see how it's ranking now.
Like how is it showing up for me now?
Mm-hmm.
So I wanted to start there in terms of like, coming from a place of flourishing and vitality and a positive psychology lens, rather than coming from a place of like, deficit.
Yeah.
So, once we've got a sense of this, we can then take a look at different domains in our lives, and there's lots of online tools for this.
I also have some sections in my book about how to do this as well.
But if we wanted to identify an area where you were looking for change, we might go and look at a number of different domains of life.
So that might be the domain of It might be romantic relationships.
It might be family relationships, friendships, leisure, hobbies, spirituality.
You might just start off and pick an area where you feel like there's a yearning for some kind of change.
So we start there.
What is so significant and paramount in goal setting is that the goals must be aligned to values for them to be sustaining and meaningful.
So we can set goals like I want to get this degree.
Let's say you want to get this degree and then you get it.
And maybe you feel a bit deflated or a bit like, hmm, what's next?
My curiosity or my suspicion at that point, if that feeling arises, is that the goal there for you was not aligned to a value.
Yeah.
I mean, the first thing that's coming to mind is like if I set the goal to run a marathon and I did it, I don't think I would.
I would probably feel proud of myself, but I don't think it would really be that meaningful to me, because it's just not.
It's not something that I ever think about.
It's not aligned with my values, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think this happens so much more often than we will realise.
So, for example, it's not uncommon for me.
I used to work at a university and I would see a lot of students that were very distressed by the pressure and expectations of them to achieve a particular grade or to get into a particular course.
And sometimes, when that didn't happen, what we would begin to unpack was well, what was this goal, in service of?
And sometimes it would be parental expectation.
So I'm doing this to please other people.
I'm like, well, I mean, this is interesting.
Like this is like let's explore this.
What is it that you deeply want?
What is it that you would like?
And, yes, there's a whole bunch of stuff around this to work with.
But it's so important to unpack is this goal something that is supporting my valued direction?
So you really need to ideally figure out what your values are.
Yeah.
So that's the first thing we have to do.
So we look at our strengths.
We look at identifying our values.
Okay.
Which we explored in last week's episode with Kemi Nekvapil, who also helped us with our company values.
So we'll put a link in the show notes to that episode so people can have a listen.
Um, once we have our values, we can then go and choose like one of those domains of life.
Okay.
What is it that I want to work on?
And then we can look at setting what are called smart goals.
I'm sure you've probably heard of smart goals before.
Nope.
No?
Measurable is one of them.
Yep.
So I'll explain the acronym, because I think there are actually a number of variations of this, but they're all, relatively speaking, to the same thing.
So SMART goals is an acronym and it's specific measurable, achievable or attainable, relevant and timely.
Okay.
So if I set a goal, that is, I want to eat better.
There's nothing about that goal that is specific.
How will we know?
How will we know that I'm eating better?
We can't measure it, being the M. There's nothing measurable about eating better.
I don't know if that's achievable or attainable because again, we don't know what the goalpost is or what the end mark is.
Is it relevant?
So is this goal meaningful to me?
I mean, it might be, but we don't know anything more about it.
And timely.
Timely means when am I starting it or when am I going to know if I've finished it?
Right.
So you need like clear beginning and ending markers.
Yes, absolutely.
So what we might look at instead is something like... I've got one for you.
Yeah, great.
Go for it.
I cannot achieve this.
Okay.
I want to so desperately.
Being in bed by 9.30am.
Okay.
That's always the time.
Mic drop.
Always.
You guys discuss it.
Can we go through that acronym then?
Yeah.
So like that is a great example.
Specific.
Yes, it's specific.
You can tick it off.
Yeah.
And so this is the thing.
We need to be able to know if we can tick it off yes or no.
Yeah.
Specific 9.30 and then is that every night?
Yes, every night.
Every single night.
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
Just go to bed, Hugh.
Okay.
That's what I said to myself.
Yeah, I got that.
Okay.
Okay, so measurable, yes.
Again, we can say we can tick it off.
Is it attainable to do that?
It should be.
Is it achievable given the resources that you have, the time available to you?
Yes.
This is what frustrates me.
But I'm curious as to whether it is.
No.
No.
Well, I can't do it.
I've been trying for like two years and I can't do it.
Okay.
So that's interesting information too, right?
I've been trying so hard, Em.
You okay?
No.
So if you've been repeatedly trying at this goal and it's not working, maybe we should look at making the goal, changing the goal.
So maybe it's 10 o'clock.
Okay.
Just as an example, if we have been persisting at a particular goal and we cannot get there, that says something about how attainable it is and also says something about the barriers that are in the way.
So we'll get to the barriers.
So the attainable, achievable A part of that acronym is questionable maybe.
Yeah.
The relevance, what does it mean for you?
It means a lot.
It's the one area of my well-being that just is letting me down.
And since Maria's episode, I'm stressed at what I'm missing out on.
I'm not remming it up enough.
That's Maria Roberto's episode on sleep earlier this year.
So it has a great deal of meaning to it.
That is a rapid eye movement REM.
Berto.
You're railroading Dr. Emily's.
No, I'm not.
I want help.
Too many acronyms at once.
So then we come to the time part is that we want to know when you would set it.
When are you going to start?
Three years ago.
Yeah.
But I'll start tonight.
Okay.
So, like if you were in therapy, what we would do potentially is and this is all individual experience, obviously is that we would want to look at how we make a committed action, some sort of commitment to starting that.
Yeah.
But we want to look at the barriers before we get there.
So again, like something like that.
What do you see as the barriers?
The amount of stuff I have to do.
So once the kids fall asleep, which is about probably 8.30, I have to clean the kitchen.
I have to get my clothes ready for tomorrow.
Both my exercise clothes in the morning and then my work clothes.
Unpack the dishwasher.
Set up the area where I do like breath work in the morning.
Hang out with Penny and i can maybe watch a ko mini basketball.
That'd be great.
Okay, that's a lot already.
Yeah, i think there's another barrier.
What's that?
Adhd oh yes yes yeah, i mean, it's all all that stuff i'm doing is to aid my adhd in the morning, but it's a lot of to do at night okay, and so if you would like, if you were to do that normally, what time would you be going to bed If I just did all that after that?
Well, the answer to that question is the time I usually go to bed, which is around about 11 to 1130, and then I'm up at 5.
So like if we unpack that, to me it doesn't actually sound achievable to remove two hours of your night off.
Yeah.
And keep everything the same.
Yeah.
And so then this curiosity is, okay, so what can I let go of?
Or how can I make this goal actually more reasonable?
So you get a good shot at feeling a sense of success with it.
Yeah, well, so this is the, in all seriousness, I have, this is quite a pain point in my life.
But so I have been doing that stuff earlier in the night, like cleaning up before the kids go to bed, like making the coffee before the kids go to bed.
And often I'll find myself at like nine o'clock going, Okay, I've done everything.
And there's half an hour to spare.
So I can go to bed now.
You go to bed now.
And I just, I can't, like, I think it's what you said, Josh.
I can't, I can't do it.
It's so bizarre.
And Penny will go.
If you want to be in bed by 930, this is a time to go and like have a shower and brush your teeth, and this is the time.
And I'll go, yeah, no, I know.
I'm just, and I'll just find something.
It's, I can't, it's really weird.
Yeah.
What do you think your mind is saying in that intervening period, before you take the step to sleep, to go to sleep?
It must subconsciously feel like it needs more time to like reconcile the day or something.
I don't know.
Like maybe I need time by myself.
Yeah.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Because there's something happening.
There's like my bones won't let me go to bed.
Yeah.
So we may not be always aware of it necessarily, but often our mind will come up with a whole lot of excuses not to do the thing we want to do.
Yeah.
And that internal dialogue will be very compelling and often very convincing.
Like, I'll just watch another half an hour.
Yeah.
Or I'll just watch this next episode.
Yeah.
Or I'll just watch this next reel.
Yeah.
And so the mind is in some ways in the driver's seat.
Yeah.
And then it directs us.
I'm not in the driver's seat.
Once it gets past nine o'clock, something happens where I'm not in control anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah, so what do you think would help you to?
And I actually want to make a like just kind of, I guess, question in there around again whether 930 is achievable.
Definitely not.
Now we know about this conversation, it's definitely not.
So can you like even just to start with with a goal?
Is that we actually want to get wins on the board?
Because if you've been sitting with this goal for two years, what that also brings with it, if we were to look at like a more significant goal as well although this is probably very significant in terms of life, health and stuff but that if you have this constant sense of failure of I can't do this, what's wrong with me?
That actually becomes really detrimental to our sense of wellbeing as well.
So we want to be able to set goals that are a little bit of a stretch But are attainable, because we need a reward.
We need some sort of reinforcement for this change of behaviour.
So you know, if this has been sitting with you for two years, then what would it be like to make the goal a little bit more flexible?
And so maybe it's not every like, for example, just hypothetically.
Maybe it's not every single night.
I must be in bed at 930.
Maybe it's I can go for two nights of the week to start with.
Or maybe it's two nights of the week I'm going to go to bed at 10 or 10.30.
So we have to look at like realistically what is giving me a chance of success here rather than failure.
How does that sit with you?
Right.
In my head I was thinking not days of the week.
I was thinking of adjusting the time.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, whatever works for you, really.
I chose the number.
I chose 1023.
Okay.
Michael Jordan's number.
Yeah.
1023.
So I wonder, like when thinking about this, how we can support those sorts of goals.
There's lots of different ways we can do this.
But even just kind of staying with that as an example right now.
Making a public commitment to a goal makes it much more likely we will stick to it.
Hey, Hugh and Josh.
Later this year, we are touring a brand new live show around the country called Together Again.
We are.
It's a brand new show.
Brand new show.
It's kind of like if you loved a band, right?
And you've already seen them play live.
You saw them a couple of years ago.
When they toured their first album.
Toured their first album, exactly.
And now they've written a whole new album with brand new songs and they're touring that.
The only problem is I want a band to play their best stuff from their first album, so we're a bit different than that.
Yeah, we're one of those bands that only plays the new album.
But it's a great album.
Yeah, but it's awesome.
It's even better.
Hugh, stop mentioning the first album.
Out of interest to you, if we were a band, what would you call our band?
I was going to say Kings of Leon, but that's already a no-no.
So, yeah, so if you're interested in the Kings of Leon, then check out the Imperfects live show.
We're basically going to all major cities, aren't we?
Yep, Melbourne, Hobart, Adelaide.
Brisbane, Gold Coast Newcastle Canberra Sydney Perth Geelong, you name it.
We're going there pretty much.
If you love Sex on Fire, we're not going to play that, but we do have all new stuff.
If you've seen us live, this is completely different, so we really hope to see you there.
Go to livenation.com.au for tickets.
I've noticed recently that I will behave in the way that I want to behave, in terms of like going to bed at the right time, getting up and doing exercises all the things that I want to do like achieving my goals.
I'll more often than not do them if I'm being observed by someone else, usually Jam.
So it's like if Jam is away for some reason and I'm home alone, I will stay up later and I will be less likely to get up and do the things, because there's part of me that likes that Jam will go like wow, he's impressive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a weird thing.
It's absolutely a phenomenon.
I could get this wrong.
I really could get this wrong.
This is really going back to like first year psychology.
But I'm pretty sure that's called the Hawthorne effect.
Really?
This sense of this experience of being observed.
But yes, of course.
And I think we need to really use that to our advantage.
So, for example, with things like something like studying, often I would make a suggestion of going to the library to study, because you're being surrounded by other people also doing the same thing.
This is why I like working at cafes.
Yes, exactly.
As opposed to working in like a room by myself.
Yeah.
So we want to find ways to scaffold and support the goals that we're setting.
So yes, making a commitment, for example, like Hugh saying 1023 here on this podcast, this is a public commitment, right?
Now, we will talk about what happens when we don't make it.
That's another thing.
But, But.
By doing this, it's you willingly leaning in to a committed action that is also going to be held and supported by other people hearing it.
So that's one thing.
But yes, definitely we always do better when we're being observed by others.
There's another phenomenon called body doubling.
It's not a phenomenon, it's a strategy called body doubling.
And some of the research that they found is even things like If you're struggling with, for example, a study task, writing task, some sort of task that you have to sit down and do, even watching someone on YouTube studying themselves, increases your capacity to stay with the goal, with the task.
Wow.
There's this thing that Jam, because Jam has ADHD and she often struggles, she edits these episodes.
So hi, Jam.
It's like to say hi to her when I talk about it because she's, yeah.
I'll be home by about 5.30.
But I think that she I don't know if she got this idea from someone or whether or not she thought of it, but either way, this is what she does and it really helps is that if she wants to get a task done and it might be like doing the washing or it might be like editing the podcast or whatever it is but she'll set up her phone and film herself.
Yes. with her own camera.
And that really helps her get things done.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, and it's a level of accountability.
It's a sense of being observed.
There may be some weird thing about not being alone in that too.
I don't know.
That's just a hunch potentially.
I was just going to say that I can see that that is definitely the truth.
Otherwise, run clubs wouldn't exist, gyms wouldn't exist.
Like there's so much anecdotal evidence out there.
And I can feel the eye rolling of everyone around me and the shame comes in and I stop.
I've been trying really hard to set some goals, um actions in place.
Rather, i don't necessarily.
I guess the goal is to engage with life more and to no longer exhibit signs of depression.
Um, i've been putting some stuff in place and it's been really good and i've been loving it, but i feel like i have i really want to do that by myself and i don't want to tell people what i'm doing, so i don't know what's going on there, but almost everyone i know they prefer to do exercise with other people.
Yeah, but i wonder if there's Uh, some feelings of shame in there that make you want to hide.
So that that I, that we might do that in private, because doing it publicly is uh, like it's exposing.
So that might be.
Another experience that we can have is that I'd prefer to kind of do this quietly by myself.
Um cause?
There's never one.
There's never one global experience.
You know, there's always variation and individual experience in our, in our lives.
Absolutely.
Um.
And I just am curious as to whether, like you said that there's an eye roll, and I kind of got a sense that that might be the perception of an eye roll rather than an actual eye roll from other people.
Maybe, yeah.
I think I feel like friends that have known me for a long time have seen me never commit to a fitness goal, that it's a bit like the boy crowd wolf that if I was to say it, they'd be like oh, I don't believe you.
Yeah, and I think that that in some ways maybe highlights your feeling of shame around that.
Yeah, I think so.
And so maybe you don't want to tell people in case, I mean, there's a risk there of failure, right?
That's why we don't want to tell people.
Is that if I do tell people, then I'm up for ridicule rejection, whatever it might be?
Yeah.
A sense of public failure, absolutely.
And that's why also like when you did that gig, like, that was turning in the face of risk.
Like that's an act of vulnerability there.
Yeah.
And I'm curious, like what strengths do you use to get to do that, for example?
I don't know what the strengths are, but that is a goal and an outcome that I've always really wanted.
I'm not sure how much I really want to be a fitness person, you know?
Yeah.
And the commitment of doing that was akin to setting.
I don't know, maybe a marathon's a bit far, but like a half marathon.
It's a similar thing that required a lot of time and effort and discipline, but I don't know.
I think for me the difference might have been that I genuinely wanted to do that and enjoy performing, whereas I don't think I genuinely enjoy exercise.
Yeah, that's really fair.
Yeah.
I'm curious, do you enjoy the after effects?
Of exercise?
Yeah.
Usually not, but since embedding it, I have enjoyed it a lot because of the mood that I've been in.
I can feel it affecting some of the moods and behaviours that have scared me a lot, and I can feel it as a like.
I'm almost seeing it like medicine at the moment, and so I'm taking my medicine.
Yeah, yeah.
Very significant for you because you've never had that.
No.
Sorry, that's not true.
I think when you were at school you enjoyed it.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah, potentially.
But since, I mean, since leaving school, exercises never, you've never felt good after it.
No, no.
And I had an interesting moment that really rang true with the strength to your weaknesses.
And I have talked about this before on a Tea House Week episode that I did, which we can link to in the show notes.
But I thought, like the first day I'm like I'm going to get up and do exercise and I have something I've got to get over where I tend to push myself way too hard.
And I did quite a hard class.
Tabata.
Yeah, it was a hit class.
It was a hit class.
Yeah.
And I found myself halfway through saying you've got a choice to get really negative, like you always do.
Or you could.
Why don't you talk to yourself the way you would talk to your kids if you were doing it?
And I actually started crying but in a really happy way.
It was like an overwhelming sensation of love for myself that I'd never experienced.
But it felt and I hadn't thought of it the way you explained it before, but it felt like potentially a strength of mine being used on a weakness which was really.
It was a nice moment.
Yeah.
I just really tapped into that what's called, like the affiliative system in the body that, like it's the loving, connecting part of our brain and body.
Is it called?
Affiliative.
Affiliative.
Yeah.
So it's what you know.
It's oxytocin and the love hormone and you know, when you contacted the love that you have for your kids, you could offer that to yourself.
Just like a little gateway.
Yeah, it was like just try it on, like just give it a go.
Yeah.
And it was a bit overwhelming but in a good way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like what an incredible experience to notice too.
And I think there is a lot of power in us slowing down to notice when we've done something differently and to really savour that, to feel it, to notice it and to soak it in.
Because otherwise we forget that we had this moment, or we forget that we have this capacity, or that we forget that there is this choice here.
So, you know, being out there, that's really powerful work.
Yeah.
But even saying it out loud to you guys now, I'm scared.
I'm going to not do it tomorrow morning, when I would have feel like I might have just put the mods on it.
So can I like add something to that around that goal setting and the real importance of allowing slack in the goal?
So what I mean by that is giving yourself like slackening the lead, giving yourself some room for what I would term is a lapse rather than a relapse.
Yeah.
So, if you think, like so often, we will set a goal that, like I, need to exercise every day for 30 minutes at this level of intensity.
And what happens is that we're a bull out of a gate at the beginning and we go hard.
And we might feel that actually maybe that feels good or like, yeah, totally got this.
But then, when it gets to what's called like the middle of the goal, we lose energy and we can no longer sustain that kind of intensity.
And so then we fall off.
And then that inner critic comes in and says all the same things, like knew this would happen.
You never follow through, you're a failure.
And then it kind of goes off in a tirade of criticism which is also then activating this stress response which makes it feel so much worse altogether.
So what we want to have a look at is giving room in the goal setting for difficult days, days where it doesn't happen, but knowing that it's sitting in this like nest of compassion, but also gentle nudging.
So maybe today and I'm quite serious when I say this maybe today, I put my runners on And I walked to the letterbox and back again.
That is still you engaging in what's called committed action.
And that is you moving.
And I think I've mentioned this before, but Robin Walzer, who is an acceptance and commitment therapist, has this beautiful saying, which is we live life from the feet up.
And so we need to move first and then our head and our heart follow.
Oh, wow.
And I think it really brings with it this knowledge that we need to move, even if that movement is so tiny.
So if all you can do is put on your shoes and go to the front door, you are still on track.
Does that apply not just in like a literal physical moving sense, but does that also apply in the sense of like –
Writing.
Yes.
So it's like you hear people, they do, you know, morning pages is a common thing.
And I find that if I'm like, oh, I want to do something, but I can't be bothered.
Like it feels like too big of a task to sort of delve into the big project that I have to get done.
I'll just start like journaling or just like writing, whatever just comes out, just typing.
Yeah.
And that often just, it's almost like it gets me in the groove.
Yeah.
And it's actually called I don't know if this is a technical name for it, so it's action before motivation.
So the motivation comes after the action, rather than us waiting for the motivation to happen for us to take the action.
But you could apply this principle of just moving to anything.
So meditation, for example, is You may have a goal of sitting down to do 10 minutes of meditation every day.
20 seconds.
If that's all you can do, you are still on track.
Or if you fall off the wagon that day.
I say this to the kids, like, you notice it, you dust yourself off and you keep on going.
So you get back on.
But what we have to do in order to get back on is to bring in the compassion.
It's like, oh, that probably wasn't what you were planning for today.
And I know that feels disappointing.
That is disappointing.
What can we do to get you back on again?
What can we do to help you return to this?
Because it's important to you to do it tomorrow.
So we need to have some space and compassion for when we don't follow the plan.
Because so often, if we don't follow the plan, the usual outcome is that we just give it up altogether.
And then that just reinforces the same old patterns.
So self-compassion is really key.
I often do this with my clients is to think about what would be like your inner cheer squad.
So you know, in those like usually, the moment towards a goal that is the most difficult is the one that gets you moving first.
So like, for example, you're going to go to the gym.
Usually like if you have to drive to them, usually you being in the car, you've already done the action.
It's actually just the decision in that moment that is the most difficult to actually move, right?
So if you can catch yourself and you can notice the thought, so I'm noticing, I'm having the thought I don't want to go.
I'm noticing I'm having the thought, this is really hard.
And then can we, whilst holding this in awareness, on the one hand, can we also bring in like what you might like to create is like your inner cheer committee.
And I think Rick Hansen also talks about this as a psychologist and author is just like how do you bring in the people that you imagine in your mind that's sitting inside there saying you've got this?
And you can have on this committee whoever you want.
Like it could be your kids.
It could be your partner.
It could be a parent.
It could be like a celebrity if you want.
Because we can be playful around that.
And it's not.
This committee is not here with a whip and a stick telling you you have to go and do this.
It's actually more of a nurturing, like you can do this.
I've got your back.
Just give it a shot.
We're here for you.
This is where I see like the future of AI being really helpful.
Yes.
Where you can literally have like a celebrity cheering you on.
Like a video of a celebrity saying, you can do it, Ryguy.
You got this.
Who was that celebrity?
I don't know.
It was just a random American.
But yeah, it could be anyone.
So yeah, you could think about like who's on your committee.
Yeah.
And it's kind of similar to what you know you did in a really beautiful way Josh, around like even kind of bringing in your kids to imagine, like how you would talk to them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got this.
I feel like I want to try out a metaphor, and you can all see if this resonates for you or not.
Hang on, does the metaphor align with your values?
Yes.
I think it will.
Great.
Yeah, yeah.
Has anyone here ever tried to train like a vine, like a creeping plant?
Yes.
You have?
Yeah.
So...
Especially if you want to get like coverage across a fence.
You kind of got to and the metaphor for me is that, like the finished vine, that goal is like a beautiful, full person.
Like that's the you that you want to be.
Is that like finished vine?
Like the evenly distributed.
Evenly distributed, lovely vine that covers the fence or trained up along the thing.
I find that when you do it you get sort of a few sprouts and they're almost like the ideas of the little goals to get there.
And you've got to be really gentle with them at first and very delicate, and place them where they need to go and share it, because you don't want to snap them.
And some of them as you gently train them.
You're sort of every day going out there and doing it and spreading them out to get them into where they need to be.
And you can train one for quite a while and it's working, and then, for whatever reason, that just starts to stop growing or doesn't work and another one will start to take off.
You kind of got to have multiple ones going at once.
Some might not work.
Some work better than others, but the more you train them and the more delicate you are, the stronger they get.
And then suddenly there's a vine that is like stronger and you can't really change the direction of.
It's been embedded and it is what it is and it feels.
Does that metaphor work for this?
I think so.
I think that's really lovely.
I think that and it really is testament to the nurture that we have to to give ourselves when we're making, when we're growing like, really like that's what it is right is that we're we're growing something, we're changing something, we're building a skill, and if you go in there like at such high intensity, with such high expectations and you're really rough with yourself, then like yeah, like it sets you up for failure.
So I think that's a beautiful metaphor, like about how you gently nurture this change.
And for me also that if say at the moment it's getting up and getting on the bike, that could be one of those things.
Yes.
One day that might not be what I want to do anymore.
Yes.
That doesn't mean it's a failure.
Yes.
Because maybe I just need to nurture another branch now instead.
And so maybe, for example, on that day when that, you know, that just doesn't seem possible today.
Maybe you can also bring attention to something that you're doing that is in line with what you value.
So, no, no, I didn't go on the bike today, but I also had like this beautiful moment with Charlie.
Yeah, and that's another branch.
And that's the branch that's nurturing up that way.
Yeah.
But so often, what we will focus on is the fact that I didn't get on the bike and, like then, my whole day has been globally assessed as a failure.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, absolutely.
We have to bring in a compassion and we have to allow ourselves to fail and to make mistakes, but also to get back on, to keep going and to also notice what else is going well.
There are so many things that we can look at when it comes to goal setting.
What I do want to mention is the phenomenon of the fresh start effect.
And this was developed by researcher Katie Milkman.
And I mean this is very logical, but basically that we are much better at making change in the place of actual change or milestone events.
They could be like you get a new job.
And so now because you get a new job, you make changes in other parts of your life.
Now I have a new route to work, which means I stop at this other coffee shop, or maybe I'm riding my bike to work now.
So that change has prompted change.
A domino effect.
An opportunity for other changes.
So this is called the fresh start effect.
So what other changes can I institute?
It might be you've moved house.
It may be that you've got married or there's a child.
So what does this change, how can this change prompt other changes?
That's cool.
We lost the car keys so I've ridden two days in a row to work.
Yeah, great.
Have you ridden?
Yeah.
And then there's the other, like there's arbitrary milestones.
So the ones that we will often get like a sense of urge for motivation, that is like news around news around birthdays, milestone events, retirements.
So those sorts of events also very naturally prompt motivation.
Like a sense of motivation.
And we can capitalize on that.
Absolutely.
And we can really pay attention to that.
What I will mention is it's the middle period that we have the most difficult with.
So we tend to have lots of motivation at the start and we will also get usually towards the end of a goal like a big push.
This is very normal.
The beginnings and the endings, much more motivation, much more action.
It's the middle that's really hard.
And what Katie Milkman talks about is the idea of shortening the middle so that we're in the middle for less period of time.
Now, what that would look like is, for example, not setting a 12-monthly goal, but setting a weekly goal.
Because if you set a 12-monthly goal or a year goal, your middle period is really long.
Whereas if you set a weekly goal, your middle period is maybe two or three days.
And so that requires breaking the goals down into really like much smaller ones.
And you, for example, talked about like with running, like how you break down those goals into tasks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for me to run the 400 meters in 52 seconds, it means I need to be able to run the 200 in probably about 23 and a half seconds.
But to be able to run a 23 and a half second turn, I've got to run 100 in about 11 and a half.
So it's like training.
So it's a bit different.
It's breaking down the distance.
Yeah.
Achieve that distance before I move back up.
But if you had a goal, like when, when do you want to run the 400 by, for example?
Oh, okay.
Well, there's a season that goes from October till, till April.
And in my head, I'm usually thinking buy if I'd like to run it as quick as possible.
Yeah.
So if you only had that goal. it would make it really hard to sustain motivation towards it.
But because you've got all these other goals that sit underneath it, that makes it more likely you'll get there.
Yeah.
And this is the same with any big like I've got.
To be honest, the book writing thing was a real example of this for me, because when I was in the middle I was like, oh my God, I've got so much to go.
But it had to come down to what am I getting done by the end of this week?
When am I finishing this chapter?
And it's the same thing.
We need to break down those larger goals.
Otherwise, what will happen is we get overwhelmed.
Yeah.
If the goal is to eat a burger, you want to take multiple bites.
Just to have one bite, it's very hard to achieve that goal.
That's what I was thinking, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Or like eating 20 doughnuts in, you know.
Yeah, 20 doughnuts in half an hour, which is a challenge that I set to Hugh before.
Yeah.
It was going to be $200,000 if I did it.
Yeah.
Or was that a hypothetical?
It was definitely a hypothetical.
And it still didn't do it.
No, not knowing if it was hypothetical or not.
There were huge doughnuts there, by the way.
Yeah, big doughnuts.
Big 200,000.
Even with something like that, if you said, oh my God, I've got to eat 20 doughnuts in half an hour, You look at that as one big goal and you're like I can't do that.
But then we go, okay, so what do I do next?
What's one donut?
Focus on one donut and then you focus on the next one.
So yeah, this is a really key point in goal setting is that we need to make sure that the goal is not too big and it's not too distant.
It has to be close enough and it has to be small enough that we can really get some wins on the board.
And that kind of brings me to like what I think is one of the most important parts of change and goal setting, and that is reward for your work and the importance of pausing to celebrate.
Because so often what can happen is that we work so hard at something, we persevere so hard, we get it done and then we don't stop to celebrate it.
And then we don't get to soak in, like the pride, the feeling of excitement joy, and to really savour that my efforts resulted in this good thing.
So it's really important for me like certainly kind of growing up in my family, that we would we would always celebrate achievements, and not that it was that you wouldn't get a celebration if you didn't do well, but it was more like this is a hallmark of pausing to really pay attention and honour the work that you've put in here in some ways.
And I think like that in the change process is really, really important, because otherwise it just slips off.
Yeah, that's an interesting thing to think about.
It makes me think about.
For a couple of years, like four or five years ago, I committed publicly to make a video every month and release a video every month.
And that was really, really good in terms of achieving goals, because every month I did it and it was great.
But I didn't really get a chance to celebrate each one because I was immediately on to the next one.
It was a strange experience that the worst part of it was the releasing of the video, which many would think that's the fun part.
You get to put it out into the world.
But by then I'm already the dread of the next one.
I've got to do another one now.
What can that be?
And I don't pause to celebrate.
Yeah, and I think that is really a good catch in there.
It's like, how do you slow down enough really just to acknowledge how hard this has been?
And even equally, if something hasn't worked out, so...
I don't know, let's just say that you're running the 400 and you don't get the PB.
This is a real challenge, but also there is a space in here to acknowledge how hard I've worked, even if it didn't work out in the end.
Because what we can glean from that are the strengths that I drew upon, the commitments, the time and the sacrifice, and that is all really meaningful stuff.
And maybe we didn't get the actual end goal that we were looking for, but it's still on track to how you want to live your life, right.
I've run a PB in three years.
And every year, I think maybe due to age, I'm getting just a tiny bit slower.
But I'm totally fine because it's like the actual what it's encouraging me to do is just so rewarding.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think this is the thing, and we've spoken about this in many different instances is this notion of process over product?
It's the engagement in the process and in the doing rather than the outcome that we're looking for.
And I think this is particularly relevant when we look at the way we set goals and whether the goals are what's called goals of avoidance or goals of approaching.
So you could, for example, set a goal like I'm not going to eat any chocolate this week.
Or you can set a goal of I'm going to have three healthy meals.
I hope this is hypothetical.
Now, if we look at the outcome of those two, let's just say you didn't eat chocolate all week.
Most often when we're setting those sorts of avoidant goals or goals of reduction, for example, is that when we get to that goal, we will most likely feel relief and But the intensity of the emotional response is less.
But if you set a goal which is approaching behaviour, so cultivating the kind of person that you want to be, for example, is that what we notice is that we will experience pride and joy and a real sense of fulfilment and achievement.
So we want to think about the tone with which we set the goals.
Are we setting the goals about promoting and cultivating certain behaviours that we value, or are we trying to eliminate something?
Now, of course, there are circumstances where there will be goals around.
You know, if there's things like addiction, for example, or anything where there's a harmful behaviour yes, of course we want to look at reduction in those behaviours.
But more generally speaking, those like approach behaviours are much more sustainable.
Is it kind of like going instead of saying I want to spend less time on my phone, it's like I want to spend more time building Lego.
Yes, 100%.
Yeah, great.
Yeah, that sounds more exciting, whereas the less time on your phone is like oh, it's so much negativity attached to that.
And then yeah, if you do it and even if you can measure it and it's a proper goal, it's a smart goal Um, it's still.
Yeah, there's a sense of like oh, I did it.
And there might be a sense of pride.
But it's there's no there's, no.
You're not adding anything necessarily.
Whereas like going like, I'm going to spend 10 hours building Lego this week.
That's 10 hours that I'm not looking at my phone.
Exactly.
That's great.
Yeah.
And you can really see there.
I mean, both would be aligned to values, potentially like in both directions, but we could really say that like okay, so spending 10 hours of Lego, how would that support your values, do you think?
Like play.
Yeah, exactly.
Now you could say the same thing, maybe for not being on your phone, but it would be more difficult, I think.
Definitely, yeah.
That's a quite work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this is really very valued led choices of actions here, that I'm being guided by my values and that also like we can pause and notice that like yeah, woo.
Like I'm like values directed.
Like that's a really nice moment to practice as well.
Yeah.
Great.
There are two more things I just wanted to mention.
One of them has to do, this is a very kind of trivial, a little strategy or tool to use.
Again, this was developed by Katie Milkman and it's called temptation bundling.
And this is for practices that we find or change, that we find boring mundane annoying, frustrating.
So like kind of daily trivial tasks, for example.
And the idea is that like, let's just say you've got to hang out the washing.
You hate hanging out in the washing.
But what you do is that you bundle that behavior with a pleasant, rewarding experience.
So let's just say you save your favorite podcast to do the hanging on the washing.
The key, however, is that you cannot be rewarded with that podcast at any other time.
You have to save it for the unpleasant event.
They're attached.
They're attached.
Yep.
So you don't get to experience the good thing unless you're doing the uncomfortable thing.
Gee, that's cool.
So you could like, if you've got all of these boring house admin tasks to do, for example, that you really find very boring, we might already try and pair them with rewarding stuff, but we're not also excluding using those rewarding tools at other times.
But we want to see if we can just keep them just for those mundane tasks.
I love that.
So I currently don't get to listen to.
This is a true story.
I don't get to listen to Chicane, far from the Maddening Cows symphonic orchestra album unless I'm making the kids lunch.
That's a real thing.
That's a real thing that I do.
Really?
I discovered one of my favourite albums of all time, a trance album from the 90s.
And I was like, oh, my God, I was so excited to listen to it.
No, I'm not allowed to do it unless I'm making the kids lunch.
I'd say every morning.
Yes, that is exactly it.
Every morning after I'd return, I'm like, yes, kids' lunch.
Yes, totally it.
That's clever.
I didn't think how much you would find the thought of that.
But, yeah, it's been – It's 100% that.
It's unbelievably powerful.
And I must say, like, this is going to be super daggy here, but I –
It might be worse than chicane, but yeah.
I have.
One of my good friends is a spin instructor and I sometimes go to her class and she just has like these banging tunes on.
After a class one day, I knew that I had to go home and clean the shower.
I was like, I've been dreading.
I've got to do the shower.
Anyway, she played Celine Dion, River Deep, Mountain High.
Is that Celine Dion?
Well, it was Celine Dion's version.
I don't know.
I think there's an odd.
Anyway.
Okay.
After that song, I was like, oh, my God, I have forgotten this song existed.
And then I was in the shower with the song on.
I was like, this is amazing.
Yeah.
And I was like.
Now I have a sense that I can be rewarded with that experience whilst doing the aversive thing.
I can't wait to listen to that song.
Celine Dion, Mountain High.
River Deep, Mountain High.
Was it Tina Turner originally?
Yeah, I think it was.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, and then Celine.
Yeah.
It's pretty good.
Did Jimmy Barnes ever go to it?
Yeah.
Probably.
Jimmy Barnes.
Sounds like something Jimmy Barnes would write.
Yeah, maybe.
I think it's been done a few times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, so that was my experience of unintentionally temptation bundling.
I cannot now listen to the song unless I have to do that.
That's great.
Temptation bundling.
Yeah.
I can't wait to bundle some temptations.
Yeah.
So that's something to think about.
On a more serious note, I guess I wanted to maybe kind of finish up the session.
The session, the episode.
The episode around.
One of the biggest barriers to change and to goal setting is waiting for the right conditions, or the perception that we have to wait for the right conditions.
So I won't...
I want to do this, but I won't do it until blah, blah, blah.
I won't do it till the kids are in school.
I won't do it till the weather is right.
I won't do it until this.
So this sense that we have to wait for the right conditions to make the change or to engage in the action.
And as you can imagine, what I'm going to say is that there is never the right time.
There are no right conditions.
The time is now.
And I wanted to finish with this beautiful little metaphor that was developed by a psychologist, Aidan Hart, and it's called Waiting for the Wrong Train.
And I will read it to you now.
So imagine you're going on a journey.
The destination is somewhere really special, a place you really want to visit, somewhere you've wanted to go for as long as you can remember.
You think, wow.
I just have to take this train.
I couldn't possibly make my journey on the other one.
No way.
So you wait to board the wonderful train.
And in the meanwhile, the odd looking train goes on its way.
You keep waiting for the safe, comfortable train to board.
And in the meanwhile, another odd train leaves the station and then another and then another.
All the while you're waiting for a chance to board this great, reliable train so you can take your journey.
But here's the thing.
What if the safe train won't ever leave the station?
What if you're waiting for the wrong train?
That's amazing.
That's real good.
You can't drop that, Mike.
It's attached to a stand, but you should.
Just throw it over in the corner.
Oh, that's so good.
Really good.
So now's the time.
Yeah.
Love it.
Thanks, Sam.
Before we finish Ryan, I just wanted to know did you have anything funny you wanted to say about Katie Milkman?
Had you thought of funny things?
I have.
I have, but I couldn't think of the right way to phrase it.
What were you working with?
Well, I just think, like I don't know.
I'm sort of floating around the idea of like well, there's no question as to who the father is.
Something along the lines of like well, the husband was away, the milk getting delivered, something like that.
But I couldn't quite figure out a good, punchy, sensitive way to say it.
So I just let it go.
Thanks, Hugh.
You knew it was there, mulling around.
Yeah.
That was so, so helpful.
That was really great.
Yeah, that's huge.
Yeah, thanks.
I think for everyone listening, I just think like now is the time to get on the wrong train, the uncomfortable train.
Sorry, but have a think about which direction you want to head and what values you want to align to, because I think if you are waiting for a sign that it's time to start pursuing something or having a go at something, take this as your sign and take M as your pointer.
I was going to say pointer in the right direction a bit.
Train drivers are much better.
The train's leaving and Em's about to take off.
And I think Celine Dion's going to get a pretty happy surprise in her bank account at the end of this Spotify month.
A bit of a peak in interest in Dion.
Very good.
Okay, cool.
Excellent.
Thank you.
Pleasure.
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Slash The Imperfects.
The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Kylenburg, Ryan Shelton and Josh van Kylenburg.
Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer Bella North East.
This episode was filmed by George Martin and edited by Jamison Moore.
