Discussion keeps the world turning, this is Round Table.
China's cities are growing fast, but are they becoming the same?
Some cities do reflect their unique culture and history, but many others now feature the same sleek glass buildings, wide roads, and similarly boring, or let's say, repetitive designs.
Has urban planning erased the individuality that wants to find these places?
And from life's little joys to big smiles, we invite you to Roundtable's happy place, where happiness is always on air.
Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Roundtable.
I'm He Young. For today's program, I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Yu Shen, in the studio.
First on a day's show.
Ever get that déjà vu feeling when traveling in China?
Hop on a high -speed train and city after city rushes by.
Sleek buildings, wide roads, and a touch of green in the distance.
But unless you catch the station sign, good luck figuring out where you are.
Urban design, more like copy and paste.
City planners borrow trends, tweak a few details, and voila – a new city, the same look.
It's the factory line effect.
Somewhere along the way, one could argue, cities stopped being designed for real people to live in and started being built for pictures and growth targets.
They may look modern, but they often feel like glass -dohmed showrooms.
Visually modern, but missing the warmth of real life.
Well, let's take a look at this.
Do you think that Chinese cities do kinda look the same?
Well, He Liang, you've touched on a real and widely discussed phenomenon in China nowadays, especially in China's urbanization nowadays.
That is, the homogenization of cityscapes because we see that to a certain extent, nowadays Chinese cities, especially some well -known, say, insta -famous tourism spots in the cities, they begin to look kind of the same in the last three decades of urbanization.
And if you travel around in China, you may actually see that many cities have the similar building styles, the nightscape designs, the light shows, in almost every big cities here in China.
And also there's standardized store billboards, which leads to a lack of uniqueness, and some chain brands, they're always there, you can just tour around and see the same logos in each and every one of them so yeah it is like existing in or rather among Chinese cities nowadays some examples would in include Chengdu's Kwangjai Alley which is similar to Beijing's Nanluogu Alley that's originally historical districts and alleys but nowadays there are many storefronts now have you know identical signs and brands and chain food fast food restaurants that's all piling up in there, which caused the places,
the historical alleys to lose their original feel of an, you know, old or ancient marketplace.
To be fair, when we're talking about historical alleys, isn't there a pretty good chance that they will have a similar feel to them or a similar look to them?
If you look, you know, I'm just thinking about my time in Korea.
If you compare one palace to another palace, well, they're palaces, right?
They might be a little bit different, but ultimately they're going to feel quite similar as well.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
When we're talking about historical sites or historical alleys, I think it's kind of inevitable that they will have at least a little bit of a similar vibe or a similar look.
Is that not fair? Well, I see what you mean.
But as a Chinese -Chinese person, When I go to every different Hutung, I sense the differences.
And I understand what you say, maybe the basic designs are the same, but if they're really truly historic then there's got to be something unique of an identity that should ooze through from the buildings, from every brick.
But if you're not someone who maybe grew up or is truly immersed or really know that culture, you might not see it so deeply.
It's just like when I visit, let's say European towns, be it in the Czech Republic, or be it in somewhere else, to me, okay, the town center, the town square just looks similar.
Oh, they all have a bell tower, and to me, they look similar.
But for locals, they're like, no, no, no, no, no.
Right, right. It's very different.
Ours is very special.
So there's that. But I also like to raise point that for Chinese people, the problem here is that these historic buildings are not truly historic.
They're often rebuilt, and then it's through the rebuilding process and the reorganizing and reconstruction of everything, there's a major debate and people have very different feelings about it.
But here also I'd like to highlight one fact that it's not like we're saying all Chinese cities are the same, because that's not the truth.
Because if you look at Beijing, you look at Shanghai, you look at Hangzhou, Youngjou, So I'm throwing all these names here.
These are different locations and they're different, but there are parts in the cities that just feels really similar and it could be, especially in the new districts, this could be felt a little bit more, but we'll get into it, we'll get into it.
Well, what I was just thinking about as an echo to Huoyang just mentioned is that nowadays is a lot of internet users often just mentioned this on social media that a lot of the time is the tourism -driven formatting of cities that has erased the distinct character of historical sites.
That's what people are kind of feeling a bit missing, especially when you're traveling around in other parts of the country and you just realize, okay, this is the who -tone.
This is the ancient ally in Beijing, but it looks just like home.
That's something that we're trying to raise here.
also in Canada for example oh actually I really don't know the history of Canada or how old the country is it's very young Oh maybe that's why then yeah because I was just wondering if in your country people would have this kind of discussion about Oh your town looks the same as my town.
Your town developed the same way as my town and they're identical like identical twins and we don't like that.
Yeah there is some sort of complaint I think in in Canada that the architecture is pretty boring and that does have something to do with the fact that the country is relatively young.
I found an article that was talking about the fact, this is from the Walrus which is a really well a store website with really well written stories and the question was posed, the title of the story was why is Canadian architecture so so bad and they made the point that But even in the United States, they have more compelling architecture than Canada, particularly in big cities like Chicago, where they have the famous Millennium Park, for instance, where the result was from a public and private partnership that relied heavily on philanthropic donations.
So, wealthy people and other organizations, they pitched in $220 million for that park, And that park has an adjoining arts theater, which is beautiful.
And it also has that very recognizable $23 million being -shaped mirror sculpture, if you've ever seen that before.
So, the writer of this story was comparing that to what we have in Canada.
And the point was this, in Canada, a lot of the philanthropy is directed towards hospitals and schools and the arts rather than businesses or cool looking buildings, architecture, things like that.
There was another point about a new library that's going to open in Ottawa, that's the capital of Canada, in 2026.
Now this thing, they approved...
the government approved a cost of 192 million dollars.
It's gonna end up costing 334 million dollars.
I saw the pictures...
OK, I don't... Not approving them.
No, no, I mean the price tag shot up $131 million, and this is coming at the cost of the taxpayer if not in total at least a large portion of it.
So the point that the writer was trying to make, and I agree with this, is that Canadians, when we see our government, quote -unquote, wasting money on projects like that, we're I'm not saying we don't need new libraries.
It's just at that cost, really?
So there's a trade -off, isn't there?
So the comparison was that Chicago Park and that statue that came from philanthropy.
A lot of people, wealthy people donated for that to be built.
And we don't see as much of that in Canada.
Very interesting. I will offer no comment to that, but I'd also like to just sort of give you a little bit of background here.
I mean, let's just raise the point that in China, because we're an ancient civilization, we're the inheritors of an ancient civilization.
And therefore you have this history that's worth hundreds or thousands of years.
And therefore, as citizens of the People's Republic of China, founded in 1949, I think it is a good question to contemplate, that is, how much of the history do we want or can we carry from the ancient or relatively new past to today?
Because we're also developing.
Sure. And it's a big question not only for citizens, but for policymakers and everybody in society.
And in the just past two sessions, political meetings, one, a CPPCC member, also political advisor, Yu -Ri Finn, she suggested an interesting thought that is to completely abolish the a unification of all signages in a city and you know that's food for thought and that's maybe a small thing in today's discussion.
But I mean just imagine when you have because every city every street is kind of like a microcosm of your neighborhood your city and even from the signage that could be sort of a talking point the entry point of conversation the point discussion little point there me meaning don't make it a uniform policy leave it up to the people allow the neighborhoods to decide well allow the vendors to decide and this is sort of a follow -up to a previous policy but what's really great is you see this kind of deliberation happen when it does affect you know the vendors and also So let's just say, you know,
people in the city, we're the ones that see all this stuff, we see the signage, we see the buildings that are being built.
And let's talk about this, about why is this happening when we're not saying all cities or all streets in China, but a fair amount of them seem to be kind of similar.
Why is this happening?
Well, to me, I think the biggest reason, the main reason here is that China has urbanized at such an unprecedented speed with the cities expanding at a very large scale and very fast pace, that often sometimes prioritizes efficiency over uniqueness.
Like we said a lot of the times the policy just focused on how to unify the street to make it more organized in a way.
And many new districts are built kind of quick in a way that's following standardized blueprints, rather than just organically growing with local characters.
So, there is this economic factor there.
Because the settings like standardized signage and nightscapes, they are relatively cheaper and faster to implement and can of course quickly enhance cityscapes.
So, these become the go -to for many local authorities who opt for cost -effective or easily replicable designs.
But of course, where such designs lack lasting cultural and aesthetic values.
And nowadays, they're starting to realize about it and starting to just try to make the street less unified and, in a way, more diverse and aesthetically appreciable.
I lived in Seoul, Korea, for over 20 years.
And Seoul is a really cool city.
But if you go to the top of the Yooksan building or the 63 building, which is in a place called which is kind of in the center of Seoul.
You go up to the 63rd floor and you look at the city from that point of view, and it looks like a motherboard.
It looks like a computer chip.
It really does, in my opinion.
I don't know if Seoul is a fair comparison because after the Korean War, Seoul was, pardon me, rebuilt very, very quickly, and I don't think aesthetic was part of the thought process.
Right? So when you have construction that's done with practicality in mind, then aesthetic isn't probably at the forefront of the conversation.
Right? That's something that comes a little bit later on.
That might have something to do with this as well.
And also there's this influence of globalization and modernist aesthetics that we talk about because in recent years, as you mentioned, Steve, people start to realize, oh, the big skyscrapers all of those sleek glass heavy neon lit tall buildings they look fancy they look modernized so many cities in china nowadays also aspire to look like global like bigger cities and try to follow that trend the result is more of a say copy paste of international urban aesthetics causing some of the say the newer parts of certain cities in china to look kind of alike in a way.
Yeah. It's so interesting.
I can't help but just try to wander and get into the heads of the provincial chiefs.
Maybe they're thinking, OK, because they all want their province to look good, right?
And they all want to attract investment, attract tourism, and all that stuff.
And then they're like, hm, maybe there is a default list, like, OK, there is a night show.
The lights need to be bright, and then, you know, It'd be really great if your city has this lake or river, and then on both sides of the embankment at 7pm or 8pm, lights on.
And then there's got to be a, I heart, the city kind of lights show as well.
And then, okay, what else?
Oh, recently there's this drone thing that's really popular.
Many cities in China have formed these drone formations to come up with different patterns and words, light up the night sky.
What else can we do?
Oh Beijing has this thing and Shanghai has that thing Okay, check, check check and my city needs to have them So we look like we are a top -notch city in China I mean and then the resources that go into these things I And also the thought that goes into these things seen things or the good intention that goes into these things I appreciate but maybe there's a lack of creativity, but also I I don't know how much we can ask from these, these decision makers.
Well, no. Exactly, because these decision makers, as talented as they probably are, they're not artists, per se.
If you asked me to walk into the studio after the show and do a rap album.
I couldn't because I'm not a rapper.
So if they aren't artists, if the people who are, you know, they're following policies, perhaps or you know they're making uniform design design decisions so Well Steve I I mean, I'm not sure if I'm asked for giving though because these folks yeah they're they're top bosses of the region I know they're not artists or they're not city planners themselves but I would think that they'd be able to pull the resources and employ or get the right people on the team to help out with these decisions or maybe they just didn't necessarily realize that it was a problem.
But you know what, in certain parts of China, there are really great examples of unique and human -centered urban planning or these places that have maybe something that could inspire those cities or districts that are still a little bit struggling in this department.
Yeah, certainly. There are so many examples in that realm.
And I'm going to start by raising the city of Suzhou and its old city historic preservation right there in East China's Jiangsu Province.
So Suzhou has adopted such a regenerative planning approach instead of large -scale demolition, and it values preserving the city's historical character while integrating modern functions.
For instance, there's this bridge renovation along the ancient city moat that maintains the historical elements while accommodating modern transportation needs.
And that's worth mentioning, because in my memory, Suzhou is such a place that's known for its little creeks and like canals and the river work, where cities are built upon the water, it's more like the eastern China Venice of sort.
So in back in say a few decades ago or rather hundreds of years ago, people used to travel by boat.
And nowadays in order to have it fit into the urbanization nationwide, there are a lot of roads that's built upon those bridges so that cars can travel around within the older parts of Soo Jo.
So they're preserving the history of the city and keeping up with the modern times and even from a logistical point of view, so that modern roads, cars can accommodate and all those things.
It's good. And one funny thing from my traveling there last year is that we were complaining about how much traffic jam we encountered within Suzhou.
But the driver, Suzhou local, told us that actually this is how it's meant to be because our roads were not meant for cars.
In ancient times, they were meant for boats.
So nowadays with urbanization and everything, cars can pass through.
But the roads are narrow.
So I know you guys are from Beijing.
You guys have wider roads.
So stop complaining.
The roads are really wide here in Beijing, by the way.
Yeah, well see, that's an interesting thought.
What Sujiao Chengdu and some of the Chinese cities have done is to preserve their older town, their ancient town, and then they built a new district somewhere adjacent there.
Therefore, you can have your skyscrapers, your multiple ring roads or whatnot over there in the New Town, New District, while preserving the old.
This is a fascinating thing that development doesn't necessarily go by a linear path.
We used to assume in the 1980s or 1990s in China because we wanted to develop fast.
We wanted to pull people out of poverty, to enjoy food and to improve their livelihood, living standards, and then we used to think that modern would be the panacea to all ills.
But as you have developed to a certain extent, you realize what is your identity?
What is this place standing for?
What is your history?
And then you start kind of looking back, I mean, the cities should be very fortunate if they still have a past to go for when development sometimes happens so quickly and then there's no turning back when a lot of the past has been erased.
But let me say this too many times, maybe in the last few decades, Chinese people have watched entire hu -tongs, I can say this in Beijing, streets sometimes whole districts bulldozed to make room for something so -called new.
New buildings, new neighborhoods built on a clean slate.
But sure, I understand that for some who moved into these new buildings, they honestly cannot not have cared less about the sameness of the look of the buildings.
because for many, in the 1990s, and just back those days, after the millennium, even, it was the first time that we were moving into a space with central heating, our own private bathroom and kitchen, Gen Z might not even remember this, but as millennial, a millennial, I remember this.
And for folks at that time, the bulldozing isn't tragedy, it was progress, it's a sign for a better life, even if the aesthetics leave something to be desired.
But now, we're at 2025.
And I think we should talk about this.
For China and other countries, should cities strive to balance standardization and individuality in urban planning?
Well, I think for China as a start, we certainly have, say the emphasis on standardization because there's such rapid urbanization and centralized policies.
that often result in a relatively more uniform design.
But in the meantime, there is this strong value in cultural preservation that's increasingly shown through projects like Suzhou's Old City Protection and also Chengdu's Sizhoun courtyard showcasing efforts to maintain such local heritage.
So, certainly we should just try to come up with the newer policies to maybe just get rid of the older standardization aesthetics and embrace this diverse development for cities nowadays.
Can we also just, let me offer a bit of a footprint, a footnote to what you just referred to the Sizhwun courtyard in Chengdu.
Oh, because this design is so worthwhile for you to either go to Chengdu, see for yourself or look it up online and I'm really happy to share with you that it's designed by the Pritzker prize winner Liu Jiaquan, and this project blends local culture with modern functionality while preserving the essence of everyday life.
And the design revolves around a central courtyard, accommodating diverse community activities, including a bamboo garden hotpot restaurant and a rooftop cycling track.
So it really blends into the local ecosystem and it's really inviting for everybody in community and society to come and hang out and really enjoy the Chengdu local atmosphere, which is relatively laid -back.
For people to enjoy tea at like 2 p .m., of course, that's the kind of atmosphere it has, and then for this architectural design, also this architect to be awarded with this huge award, the no pretty much the Nobel Prize of architecture this year I think it's kind of a big deal it's the first Chinese winner actually the second Chinese winner in many years yes so some complain that Chinese cities might look quite similar to a certain extent and we've been through some of the reasons and it might be a problem for some but not for others but there is one other thing that people are talking about in Chinese
cities. That is the yānghuó qī issue.
It doesn't literally translate to smoke and fire.
Instead, it captures the lively bustling atmosphere of everyday life, the authentic, human essence of a place.
A common critique of standardized city planning and development is that they often lack this yānghuó qī, missing the aroma -filled ambience that makes This urban space is truly livable, and do you agree, guys?
How important is it to preserve this yan hu flu in urban environments?
I mean I certainly agree with that because when we talk about yan hu flu, we are looking at say the warmth of everyday human life, the street vendors' calls, the scent of freshly cooked food just by the little windows open on the streets.
streets, so that's the kind of spontaneous interaction you have when you're walking on the street, and that's what makes a city truly livable in my opinion.
And sometimes we've touched upon this before as well, standardized urban planning that's often prioritizing order instead of the diversity of what's shown on the street.
it might boost down the economy growth, but in doing so, it risks erasing the very sole of a place or a city.
And for people living there, like the taxi driver in Suzhou, Suzhou Local, distinctive urban environments can foster their community pride and also their cultural continuity and and the strong sense of belonging for the people that's been spending the past say decades or their entire life there so yeah also for tourists there is this unique cityscape that worth exploring and we talked about how tourists might find it disappointing nowadays when they see similar things planned out in each and every city so yeah I completely would agree with what you just mentioned Huyang that we do need a little
bit of Yang Huatzi and diversity on the street, tourism spot or not?
It's just that it's hard to, well, first of all, it's hard to create, right?
It's almost like catching lightning in a bottle when a neighborhood or when a community can all of a sudden develop that energy, that sense of family or community where people know each other, and if they don't, then people want to visit there and everybody's friendly with each other.
That's not easy to create.
And then once you do create it, it's not easy to maintain because of gentrification, right?
You get bigger businesses that want to come in and when bigger businesses come in, rent prices grow up or go up.
And when those rent prices go up, the people who lived there before can't afford to live there anymore.
And the businesses, the small businesses, the mom and pop shops, who weren't interested in becoming conglomerates, they can't afford to pay the rent anymore.
and then this is the cycle, right?
So, it's hard to create that atmosphere, but it's also hard to hold on to that atmosphere as well.
But your question was, should we have it?
Yeah, I think we should have it.
It's just more challenging to create and maintain than we may realize.
Right. I'm not sure.
I really like that word, create in this context.
Okay, maybe it's because I'm coming from a very different position and hear me out.
Sure, I don't think the end goal is to create Yan Hui Zi, or this lively, authentic atmosphere of everyday life.
It's more like, in my opinion, if you have real people who can conduct real people, everyday, live activities, you will have this kind of ambience.
But it's just when some of these newer designs, which maybe did not take under consideration or overlooked the need for spaces that encourage human interaction, everyday activity and then therefore there's a lack of unique inviting public spaces that can lead to feelings of isolation or even alienation.
Let me give you an example in some of these bright brand new shiny residential areas.
They didn't necessarily even had in mind to have an well nice as relative but let's just don't use this word like a nice approachable marketplace or like a grocery place and then maybe there's like a small convenience store and then it's assumed that OK, the thousand of people or how thousands of households of people that was just drive to some other place to a supermarket to get vegetables just i'm using this just as an example if it was better planning then yes you need the hospital you need the school you need the um market slash supermarket place to get fresh produce and that's what chinese
people like we like our fresh vegetables and then just all these amenities and to to to sort of plan for them and also allowing the space for them for vendors to be able to move in and conduct business and once you do people will go and then you will have your young what she more or less I believe it's just sometimes there there's planning but But just not really keeping the human interaction and the human needs always in mind or putting them in a priority position.
Building for building sake, as opposed to building for the people who will use that community.
You said it. And also one data here to just prove what you guys just said.
So this Zachar, or Zayker, hope I've been pronouncing it right, which is a Chinese online media outlets.
had cited studies in Japan showing that districts allowing unique storefront designs see commercial property rents rise up by 20 % proving that individuality also has financial benefits so it's not just for say the unify style as a way of showing aesthetics but also like we mentioned how to better such local facilities for the use of local people.
And once that's elevated, that's the overall livability is elevated for a city.
Of course, individuals, the vendors, the shops, they're all going to get benefits either from a satisfactory site or say commercial site.
Yeah, if you allow people to space, we should never underestimate the ingenuity of Chinese people, the hard working, diligent Chinese people who really want to make money to make their families live a better life.
As long as you give them that breather room, the space for them to conduct the amazing minds and ideas that they have, I'm very optimistic in what they can create.
But you gotta allow that to happen.
And anyhow, guys, can the formality, or let me just say this again, can the uniformity of these cities be changed, or do you want it to be changed?
What do you guys think?
Well, I'm going to hand the mic to Steve first, as I think about that.
That's such an open question.
It's a thought -provoking question.
And I put a lot of thought into this today.
And I didn't even know where to begin.
So I went online and I went to one of my favorite outlets called The Atlantic.
And I found a story from 2020 that is talking about this very thing.
And it quoted an anthropologist Mark O 'Jay who gave the name non -place to the escalating kind of lack of character of urban spaces.
Not just here in China, but around the world.
Non -space is the term that he used.
In non -spaces, history, identity and human relation are not considered.
Non -places are used to be on the fringes of cities or used to be on the fringes of cities, in retail parks or airports, or contained inside shopping malls, but now they've spread.
Everywhere looks like everywhere else, and as a result, anywhere feels like nowhere in particular.
So the question of can China's cities be changed perhaps should be should they be changed or should they look different that's a much more difficult question, but from a practicality point of view, why should they?
If a city provides housing and public transportation and electricity and power and so on then all the basic needs of its citizens are being met.
It's sustainable and, therefore, it should be enough.
But human beings are not robots.
We love aesthetic. If we didn't, then all clothing would look the same.
We wouldn't need a blue shirt AND a red shirt!
But we want it. We want both colors.
And now I'm reminded of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Right? That's a conceptualization of the needs are the goals that motivate human behavior.
behavior. And at the bottom of the pyramid, you have your physiological needs, food, water, shelter, and rest.
Now, if we think about that from a city's perspective, those would be the things that I just mentioned before.
Infrastructure, power, electricity, water, all those things that people need to live.
But at the top of that pyramid, that's where you have esteem needs, respect, recognition, and status.
And just before that, you have social and belonging needs friendship intimacy and acceptance.
Self -actualization is at the very very top that's where you achieve one's full potential and creativity.
Now again this is from a human beings point of view but if we think of this from a city's point of view as if it were a living breathing entity.
From a practicality perspective does a city need to be creative?
No. But if we think from an economic and an aesthetic point of view would tourists flock to New York City if they didn't have the Central Park, Times Square and the Empire State Building?
Would people want to live there even?
So my answer is this, to satisfy the aesthetic need that human beings have and to sustain the city from an economic point of view.
I do think it's important that one Chinese city looks, and maybe even more importantly, feels differently from another.
If not, it's the same as all the t -shirts being blue.
I appreciate that very much, and I have so many thoughts that I need to sort of go through them after the show to come up with a worthwhile response to what you just said, Steve.
but also from just you know my own perspective feel free to just discard it if you don't like it I just feel it might be very tough to answer, well to answer this, can the uniformity of China's cities be changed?
Honestly from my humble perspective it might take a much wealthier Chinese society, can I remind you that in 2000, the year 2000, we ranked globally 133 in terms of GDP per capita.
And by last year we're ranked around 70th.
I'd much appreciate more of this look at GDP per capita to truly measure how wealthy and how people feel about their lives than just to look at that oh you're number two in the world in terms of the whole economy GDP wise and then I'm not saying that wealthier societies will absolutely have better taste or better city planning what's good or bad taste that's subjective as well.
But I think what we need is that, or maybe in the future, that in our society, the majority of the people, or maybe the decision makers of some of these big decisions can truly value beauty.
And us as a society where we have enough people willing to pay for a better quality of life and reject back taste.
When we talk about the buildings looking the same, take a look around at your own life and I'm going to a different direction here.
Sorry for being all over the place.
But look at your phone, your clothes, your shoes, your desk, your car.
What's the difference between someone from Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu or, let's say, the U .S.
or even Japan? Architecture is just one part of the bigger picture of life and we're the ones driving this global sameness to a certain extent, aren't we?
because we've embraced a globalized vision of what the ideal lifestyle should be.
So maybe this is something you can think about.
It's not just the architecture.
It's only one example of how uniformity plays out in modern life.
