Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckermann, and you're listening to Science Versus.
Earlier this year, there was this huge news that scientists had brought back the dire wolf.
Meet Remus and Romulus.
The first two dire wolves since the Pleistocene era.
This is a promotional video from the company that made these wolves colossal.
And in the video, you can see these gorgeous, little white pups.
At just 15 days old, the pups take their first wobbly steps before a much needed nap time.
The pups, who are now more than six months old, were made by taking the DNA of a grey wolf and then tweaking 14 genes in it to make them bigger, give them lighter coats, have larger teeth and jaws than a grey wolf would have. And when folks found out about these animals, there was this huge media buzz.
With headlines plastered all over the place.
One of the wolves even made the cover of Time magazine with the line, quote, he's a dire wolf, the first to exist in 10 ,000 years.
endangered species could be changed forever.
But is that right? Did scientists really bring back the dire wolf?
What exactly is going on here, and is this a good idea, or could it have dire consequences?
That's what our friends over at Today Explained wanted to know.
Today, we're going to share their episode looking into this.
After the break, co -host of Today Explained, Shawn Ramiswaran, will take it from here.
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Dire Wolves, not just a thing from Game of Thrones, not just Jon Snow's best friend.
Dire Wolves walked the Americas for millennia, up until about 14 ,000 years ago, when maybe their primary food source dried up or humans hunted them to extinction, no one was taking notes.
but we know they were a bit bigger than gray wolves they ate a lot of meat and their bite could crush bones and now we know that apparently dire wolves are back.
A startup called Colossal says they've brought these pups back from extinction.
They say they've got three of them but are these dire wolves they brought back actually dire wolves and whether they are or aren't, should we be trying to bring dire wolves back, like why?
Not a lot of people have seen these dire wolves that have come back from extinction up close and personal, like DT Max from the New Yorker is one of the few who has.
Okay, so first of all we just gotta get this out there.
We either have to put dire wolves in quotes or we have to give them a name like I don't know, can do anything like, uh… How about how about diet dire wolves?
Yes exactly. These so -called dire wolves are created by extracting DNA from a 72 ,000 year old dire wolf in an ear bone and a 13 ,000 year old dire wolf tooth.
They determine its closest living relative is the gray wolf so then they made 20 edits to gray wolf DNA to include those dire wolf specific genes.
That animal looks like a dire wolf it will behave like a dire wolf, and it is a dire wolf.
This is insane, actually.
These are not dire wolves by any definition.
But the other point is it doesn't really matter when you're seeing them because you're seeing something that's absolutely amazing.
There's two bright white wolves.
I did not see them where they live.
I saw them where they were brought to be seen, which was far, far away.
And you can't tell us where that was, but it's somewhere in the northern United States I've read.
Yeah, I do hold bigger secrets as a journalist but I'm not supposed to tell you where.
So first of all, I see a couple of people I know from the reporting on the piece.
I see George Church who looks as much like Gandalf as any human being on this planet who holds tenure.
and I also see Ben Lamb the guy who founded the project looks a lot like it's Johnny Snow right the point is like it's a perfect setup and then there are these two bright white teenage wolfs so you know even any any wolf is impressive so it's not I mean I have actually seen wolves before for another article strangely enough so a wolf carries its own weird kind of authority with it but these they do look different and again I'm not an animal morphologist so you I've been told pale, but they're white.
And they're like celebrities.
There's no other way to describe it.
That they're delightfully, blissfully heedless of how much money and effort has gone into the creation of them.
They're basically, you know, they're in this enclosure.
They're doing little things wolves do and dogs sometimes do.
One pees, the other rolls in it.
But they're majestic.
They are going about their quasi -meta direwolf existence, blissful disregard for any controversy about what you wanna call them, or blissful disregard of whether they should have been brought back in the first place.
Tell us more about this company that brought back the Diet Direwolf version that you saw.
We could do this all day.
It's called Colossal, it's run by a dude named Ben Lamb, Who is he?
What is he trying to do here?
I I mean, Ben Laim is kind of amazing.
I am pretty much in awe of Ben Laim.
Here's a guy who's maybe 40 something.
He's already had like four or five successes by which he started up four or five companies and they were bought out by larger companies, which is kind of what you want to do when you're a startup guy.
And then, you know, one day he beats a guy named George Church. Church, being the Gandalf of our earlier narrative if that survives.
Church is a Harvard professor, a guy who's gotten a million patents and loves to do deep thinking.
He's a big kind of what -if guy, like what if we were to bring back the Neanderthals?
And then the press goes, ah!
And then George Church goes, I was just considering it, I was just thinking about it.
You guys come down!
So, George Church and Ben get together, and basically what Ben says is, if you had all the money in the world, George, what would you bring back?
What would you want to do with your time?
And George says, I'd bring back the woolly mammoth.
Sick. I mean, I don't know if it's responsible, but it sounds cool.
Right, right. Exactly.
And you know, they get together.
It's like, let's put on a show, right.
and you know, this being Ben Lam, super talented, perfectly adapted, modern entrepreneur, and I don't know the details, I think he raises money with a phone call because he's got a great second idea.
And his second idea is, while we learn how to de -extinct these animals, we're going to learn an awful lot of interesting biomedical tech that we could sell.
that's where we make our money.
We're not gonna make our money.
He's very very firm on this.
There will be no Jurassic Park.
We will not display these animals, you know, check let's check back in in five years, but we will spin off the biotech and the biotech is honestly probably worth even more than what is what is Disney World charged now or Disneyland.
Hundreds, hundreds!
All right so maybe I take that back.
Maybe the better business is displaying them.
How much How much money have they raised to do this?
And how much is this company that they're running Colossal worth at this point?
Alright, so they've now raised over $400 million, and their valuation, which is a kind of complicated metric involving what shares are worth, is over $10 billion, which puts it at the size level of Moderna.
They've had an insane first few years.
And I ask you this not because, like, Paris Hilton or Peter Jackson, I'm planning on investing in this company, but because I wanted to establish that people are taking these people seriously.
And now that we've established that, do us a favor and tell us just how hard it is to do what this company says it wants to do.
The dire wolf, you know, is not, let me just get this out there for everybody.
The dire wolf is not… there's a difference between being extinct for 40 million years and being extinct for 14 ,000 years.
They both sound like a long time to us.
But you know it's just not comparable.
So you can get, you can get, I can't get, you can't get, but Bets Shapiro could get viable ancient DNA.
Now what you do with that DNA is you read the genetic sequences and then you recreate them.
Right. then you're gonna put that DNA in the cells and the cells are gonna replicate and you're gonna have an animal.
Ultimately, once you put in an embryo and then implanted in a womb, you're gonna have an animal that has those genes being acted on.
That makes it sound like you or I could probably do it with just a little bit of help.
But it's not that easy, because there are problems at every step of the way.
And it's a little bit like if I described to you how to hit a homerun, you'd be like, yeah, okay.
I there's the force and there's the counterforce and there's the angle of the swing, but most people don't hit home runs You mentioned someone named Beth Shapiro who's now I think one of the leading scientists over at colossal and someone like Beth Shapiro comes from I believe UC Santa Cruz out in California where she was doing versions of this kind of work, if not trying to revive the woolly mammoth, can colossal work faster than your, I don't know, typical elite university lab?
Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can get that much money going in a university lab without a fair amount of grant writing.
I mean, grant writing is slow and getting funded is slow.
There's a guy named Lovedalen who's a Swedish woolly mammoth guy and I think he made a really good point in my piece that nobody's really picked up on and I think it's about the money which he said like the people invested in his company weren't going to give, I'm paraphrasing him, a hundred million dollars to the World Wildlife Fund.
Like you know, they're tech people.
They probably would have bought bitcoin with it otherwise.
Like this, Peter Jackson said that owning, being a part of Colossal is as much fun as movie making.
I could do that. You know, I think that kind of tells you something.
I don't think if they've been doing this in Beth Shapiro's old lab at the University of California, Santa Cruz, he'd have thought it was as much fun… you know, as movie making.
To bring this back to where we started, DT, with Romulus and Remus, these two dire wolves.
What happens to them?
I do, I'm gonna stick with it.
What happens to them?
Where do they go? Never say never, but I think they're expected to live out their lives.
I think a wolf gets the same 15 years, I think, that a smaller dog gets.
Live out their lives and they will not hunt.
hunt, they will be given, if you've ever been to a zoo and seen what they feed the lions and tigers, they feed them something they would have hunted but they didn't hunt it.
Just oozing, bleeding, massive amounts of meat.
I think that's what the dire wolves are going to get.
But they're not planning to breed them, which I don't entirely understand.
Colossal talks a lot about reintroducing some of their animals into the ecosystem to do environmental good.
But I don't think the dire wolf was conceived by them with that as a possibility.
First of all, I mean, people don't want dire wolves in their backyard. When you realize that these dire wolves would just die out, did that bum you out?
What did you make of that?
Yes. Yes, I did. It was absolutely – you know, there were a number of sad moments in reporting this piece.
I mean, first of all, you have to kind of come to grips with the immensity of the damage that humans have done, for how long we've been doing it – because the dire wolf is essentially driven extinct mostly by human activity, you know 14 ,000 years ago.
But I don't know, when you realize that this whole thing is kind of to show we can, yeah, it becomes sad because isn't one of the reasons that we used to drive animals extinct because we could, because there was money in it, and isn't it kind of weird that we're now de -extincting an animal kind of because we now have this technology that can reopen the door that we thought that we had absolutely and incontrovertibly closed before.
The whole thing leaves you a little bit blue.
dtmax read his profile of the dire wolves over at new yorker .com the ethics of de -extinction when today explained his back the pc gave us computing power at home, the internet connected us, and mobile let us do pretty much anywhere.
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You're listening to Today Explained.
I'm Robert Klitzman.
I'm a professor of psychiatry and director of the online and in -person Master's of Bioethics programs at Columbia University and the author of Designing Babies, How Technology is Changing in the ways we create children.
And when we look at these diet dire wolves in the Northern United States somewhere by way of colossal, do we feel more good or bad?
I think there is a lot of excitement.
It's definitely cool to bring back extinct species, but there's a lot of questions we have about where these animals will live, what their lives will be like, why we're doing this, what the long -term view or vision is.
And a lot of that depends on how the technology is then use and what happens.
Well, let's talk about, to start with, what do you think of the ethics of the process by which these dire wolves have come to be?
Obviously, let's just think about whatever animal it was that birthed these dire wolves, not a dire wolf, I assume.
Right. So, there's a few issues that come up.
One is we're making a bunch of dogs pregnant to produce them, and I have concerns about dire wolves but more importantly the company has said that its longer -term plan is to produce or reproduce or to create a woolly mammoth and with that there are even bigger concerns because that you'd have to take elephants you'd have to get many elephants female elephants, anesthetize them, you'd have to stick probes up their vagina to extract eggs, you'd have to then get many elephants pregnant hopefully some will not miscarry some will miscarry then you'll have to do c -sections on the elephants to get the woolly
mammoths out so that's going to be very cumbersome and it's going to hurt a lot of elephants.
So dire wolves we have three of them that were created and I should say they're not really dire wolves they're gray wolves that have had about 15 of genes changed.
So of 80 potential genes that could be changed, they've changed 15.
And when we're mucking around with nature and changing genes, mistakes get made.
Genes have multiple functions that we don't always know about.
So, for instance, five of the genes that Colossal was going to change because they were in dire wolves, but not in Gray wolves, the researchers decided not to change, because these genes would create deafness and blindness in the dire wolf.
So, we don't always know when we're altering genes what the effects are going to be.
Genes have multiple effects.
About five years ago, Dr. Heijing Kui in China genetically engineered three children.
He took the embryos and he wanted to disable a gene called the CCR5 gene to prevent HIV from getting in the cells because he was going to work with HIV -positive fathers.
But in disabling that gene, other viruses are more likely to enter the cells.
So West Nile virus is more likely to enter the cell.
So you may disable a gene because you want one thing or put a mutation in or change a gene because you want one thing but other things may happen.
So these wolves may end up having other kinds of medical problems. These are big animals, They're 150 pounds.
Colossal has them on about three square miles, whereas normally they usually live in areas between 50 and 1 ,000 square miles.
So we're keeping them at a very constricted space.
They're at risk of other diseases.
So I'm concerned about their welfare.
It sounds like you have a host of concerns.
And throughout listening to you describe many of them, I hear the potential for death lurking at every corner, Which is, I guess, an irony of this process known as de -extinction, is that it sounds like you sure got to kill a lot of animals to get to the point of bringing back an animal that as we heard from Dt earlier might end up simply just dying off again, which I guess gets to the point of cruelty.
Where is the regulation when it comes to this process of de -extinction?
There are no regulations and that could create problems. So there have been guidelines that were developed before we actually had any extinct animals to look at.
There was one animal, a goat, in the Pyrenees, the mountains between Spain and France.
It was brought back and lived for ten minutes.
So the guidelines we have aren't very good and we have no government regulations on this.
and in fact the Trump's President Trump Secretary of the Interior Doug Borgum came out the other day and said that's great that Colossus is doing this because now we don't have to worry about driving other animals into extinction if we're gonna be in anguish about about about losing a species and now we have an opportunity to bring them back I mean pick your favorite species and call up and instead of you know raising money to get the animals on the Endangered Species let's figure out a way to get them off and this is one tool and create biodiversity what it can do for everybody.
Let them go we don't need regulations was his point to protect animals who can just any animal that disappears will just clone it back.
And I think a lot of the the company Colossal is worth ten billion dollars.
It'd be great if we can help animals that are on the verge of extinction and help them survive, given that we are losing as Colossal says we're losing a lot of animals every year and we will be losing more partly to climate change let's work on protecting those animals that are still here and have a place to live.
We've talked about a lot of the risks here a lot of the drawbacks I want to talk about some of the potential benefits.
Do you see some good there if we do indeed get some medical or scientific breakthroughs out of this company's work.
I mean there's been talk of rebalancing habitats, fixing mutations in endangered pink pigeons, vaccinating elephants against herpes, sharpening our tools for fighting diseases.
There's apparently some potential there.
So unfortunately at the moment, President Trump has been cutting back hugely on research at NIH.
The National Institutes of Health has funded immense amounts of research that have led to immense human benefit, partly because it's been available in the public domain.
Research is published, which this company hasn't published many of its key findings.
So you could argue that there is a greater need to A, focus public dollars on research, which are now being drastically cut back.
And secondly, a question is whether or not the prime aim here is to help nature, help endangered species or to make money.
Right? And if I think as DT wrote in his piece, the company only plans to create maybe three or five dire wolves, what's the point?
Is it to develop science that they can then sell or is it to create these animals, which create huge publicity.
This has been the front cover of Time magazine, it's been on every major news network, it's been in every major newspaper.
They're trying, as I understand, to raise more money.
So this gives them great profile.
We're going to bring back these five animals.
But is it to help nature, or is it to raise more money?
And this is sort of a poster child for them.
The woolly mammoth too, which is a long -range goal.
They say, ìWell, it could lead to meat and fur and tusks, and they may decrease global warming by tamping down permafrost .î Well, thereís decreasing amounts of tundra, icy tundra, for them to live.
To have an industry of mammoth fur and meat, youíd eat a lot of these animals and we donít have the space for them.
Maybe Russian Siberia somewhere does.
Good luck with that.
The Russians aren't exactly our best buddies at the moment, and even if these animals do, wherever they walk, press down snow, the snow's gonna melt further because of climate change.
So you're not getting at the source of climate change.
So I'm not sure how much the end result is gonna be actually helping animals versus making money.
Dr. Klitzmann, I thought of one silver lining in all of this.
If what you're saying is true, someone still cares about being on the cover Time magazine.
You mean that we still have magazines?
Yes, yes. And I should say I realize I'm coming across as very negative.
I don't mean to come across as negative.
I think that science is very important.
I think given decreasing amounts of money for science, it would be great as we as a society could spend it where it's gonna lead to the most bang for the buck.
We're at the cusp of, For instance, new vaccines, all kinds of new vaccine research that NIH was about to start is now ending.
I think that near -term or low -hanging fruit is there that we can invest in that will be able to help millions of people.
Dr. Robert Klitzmann, Columbia University.
Dr. Devin Schwartz made our show today.
He was edited by Joly Meyers, fact -checked by Laura Bullard and mixed by Andrea Kristen's daughter and Patrick Boyd.
My name is Sean Ramesfrom and the show is Today Explained.
That was Today Explained, which is made by Vox.
Today Explained comes out every day and digs into all sorts of stuff in the news, from dire wolves to doomsday preppers, allergies to baby Botox.
You can find them wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Wendy Zuckerman and regular science bosses will be back next week.
I'll fact you then.
