Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast This weekend my husband and I are going to go to this function where there's going to be a particular person and honestly The person's really hard to deal with like it's always about them.
They hate it when things don't go their way and How do you know that because they either erupt or they stir the pot or they're Constantly like making trouble or they're sulking in the corner like trying to draw the attention to them And here's the other thing about this person and their personality
They don't have any interest in anyone but themselves Unless of course they need something from you and then of course, you're the first person that they're gonna call now I've bet you've got someone or Or maybe many people like this in your life, too They never ask you a single question about your
life It's like it doesn't even occur to them and it's not like it has to be about me all the time But it's so clear when you're around this person that it's always about them Is this ringing any bells for you?
Maybe it's your brother Maybe it sounds like I'm describing your boss or your dad or your mom Maybe it's the person that your sister is now dating.
I mean, you can't quite put your finger on it But something is off and you always know that Any time that you're gonna have to spend the weekend with them or be in a meeting with them or have a family dinner with Them you are gonna leave and you're gonna feel drained You're gonna feel slightly annoyed
by simply having had to be around them So now that you have that person in mind, I got a question for you Do you know how to deal with them?
I'm dead serious about this.
Do you know how to protect yourself from this kind of personality where no matter what you do It is always about them Well, that's what you and I are gonna talk about today.
And we're not just gonna talk about this particular Personality style You're going to get a playbook of tactics strategies dues And we're definitely talking about the don'ts and they're gonna be specific things You need to say the next time you're about to be with someone who's literally all about themselves
Hey, it's your friend Mel and first of all, thank you for being here with me today I just love spending time with you It's always an honor to be together and I also want to thank you For taking the time to listen to something that could really help you improve your life.
And if you're brand new I want to welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family.
I'm Mel Robbins I'm on a mission to inspire empower you with tools and expert resources That you need and deserve that are gonna help you live a more meaningful life and on that topic Holy cow is our conversation today?
Going to help because we are talking about something that can be a huge obstacle To living your best life and that is dealing with a person who has a very Specific personality type and you know before I describe the personality type, I'm gonna just share with you There are two people in my life who I
have to deal with in a somewhat frequent basis That have just this weird combination in their personality where on one hand, it's all about them and at the same time Even though they're like super into themselves and egotistical they are crazy emotionally immature and I just keep expecting it to change
One of these people that I'm referring to if they're not the center of attention It's just astonishing how they always Figure out How to create some kind of distraction and pull the attention to them It's like whether they're suddenly venting about something or they're acting like a victim or they're
gossiping in the corner and creating allies or they're sulking because someone else is center stage and they're not the center of attention or they're the kind of person that You just know any single second even though they're like quiet that they could fly off the handle and snap and they never Never
ask you a single question You wanna know why?
Because they're not interested in your life.
And here's the funniest thing You know the two people I'm referring to Like if they listened to this episode they literally would have no idea I was talking about them and I'm sure as I describe this there is somebody coming to mind for You and as much as you keep wanting the dynamic and the person to
be different It isn't it doesn't matter what you do.
It doesn't matter how many times you call It doesn't matter how supportive you are how many hundreds or thousands of hours you've spent listening to the drama in their life It doesn't matter how many times you've made excuses for the way they always Have a way of turning it back on you making it your
fault. It just never changes.
Is this ringing any bells for you?
Well learning that there is a word to describe this type of person changed my life Because according to the experts what I'm describing is a very rigid but very predictable Personality style and it's called narcissism and learning about Narcissism personality styles what it is how to spot it almost
as if it's a framework it has helped me immensely in my life because the single biggest takeaway that I've learned and That I've had to put to use in my own life and then I'm definitely going to be putting to use this weekend is that this?
person This person that you're thinking about is never gonna change You need to change your approach now I want to say right up front we have done a number of episodes on the topic of Narcissism in fact our most popular expert of all time on YouTube is back She's the world's leading expert on narcissism,
but if you think you know everything about narcissism you're wrong because today's conversation is Extremely extremely different because we're not focused on them.
We're focused on you What you need to know what you need to do when you have this kind of personality in your life because maybe It's one of your kids Maybe it's one of your parents and you're not wanting to cut them out But you wish they would cut the crap and today you and I are gonna talk about How
to live with someone like this in your life because you cannot avoid this personality style And our expert today, dr Romney is going to give you the do's and definitely going to give you the don'ts and we're gonna cover topics that you have never Heard discussed before like what do you do?
If you think one of your kids or any young adult that you know may have a narcissistic personality style she's gonna talk about the difference between a true narcissistic personality and Developmental phases that kids and young adults go through that are actually quite healthy She's also going to talk
about something you will have never heard spoken about before Which is what do you do if you have kids with someone?
Who has a narcissistic personality style and her advice and that situation is going to shock you Now, you know that I always recommend that you share these episodes with people that you love But this one in particular is going to be eye -opening and it could be a real lifesaver If there's someone that you
know who's in a lot of pain or feeling a lot of friction because they're dealing with a narcissistic Personality style at work in their marriage or their family What dr.
Romney is going to do today the tools the tactics the strategies it will change your life And so here's how this is gonna go down I've got specific questions and dr.
Romney is here to answer them rapid -fire now a little bit about dr Romney Diversa.
She's a renowned psychologist professor and best -selling author She is one of the absolute fan favorite experts here on the Mel Robbins podcast In fact, she is our single most popular expert and today she's back So let's jump in Dr.
Romney, I've got so many extraordinary questions and I want to start with one that just kind of sets the groundwork Can you just explain the difference between?
Somebody that has a narcissistic personality style and say someone who just has an inflated ego So when we talk about narcissism and it's something I've talked to you before a carrot is not soup A carrot is an ingredient in soup and inflated ego is just a part of the larger spectrum of narcissism Which
also includes things like variable empathy entitlement arrogance Grandiosity and the need for admiration and validation Enveying other people the need for control on and on and on and on a person with an inflated ego Am I willing to take the bet that they're narcissistic?
Sure, but I'm not sure I'm gonna move all my chips to the middle of the table one of the things that you said in the first episode that we did with you was you made a distinction between somebody who's annoying and That's someone with an inflated ego versus somebody who is narcissistic who is harmful.
Yeah, that's it It's the harmful part and I think that that's a key element because I think by definition if a person really does have The whole constellation of stuff you need to have to be narcissistic Inflated egos definitely part of it, but there are people out there who have these big inflated
egos But they're actually kind of these also can be very teddy bear ish.
They sound they almost sound like I don't know like Circusy people like I'm the best.
I'm the greatest come here.
Give me a guy I think you're so great too and they're actually very sweet and present So it's a that's why I'm saying you can't assume do they tend to go together like it's a bet, right?
Do I if I see inflated ego, am I willing to bet that this horse might be narcissistic?
Sure You know, one thing I want to do to defend you is that this person had asked are we mistaking personality traits with a clinical diagnosis?
You've been very vocal in your work about saying this is a personality style and that people on the internet are Diagnosing other people with narcissism And the other thing to keep in mind is that the second that you click on a tick -tock video or an Instagram reel that is About narcissism you're gonna see
more of it. What you're here to say is that this is a personality style and that it is critical that you recognize the signs of it because it is a Personality style that is maladaptive that hurts other people and I learned that in the first episode we did with you that we will Link to this one.
Is it best to leave my narcissistic husband or stay for the sake of my children?
My seven -year -old is terrified of my husband when he rages I don't think it's best for me to remain But I'm wondering if I should wait until they are older or grown to leave This is this is this right here is the question of all survivors who are in the situation like this Rageful narcissist likely
not a good parent child is scared of them But then there is that big thing called family court and the one thing the narcissistic person knows Well is how to punish you now once they figure out that messing with custody is going to destroy your soul they're going all -in and Most judges in this country
will award 50 % to the other parent if they ask for it Which is a lot of time spent away from the parent who is the healthier parent and this is what people grapple with?
And here's what's so challenging.
Now. This is one of those cases where I'm not going to be able to give a good answer because You're at the crossroads where?
You either get the divorce deal with the custody Set up know that there's times your child is alone with that parent that they're scared of Okay, or you stick it out Some parents get solace from knowing they're present so at least they can run interference For that child with this toxic parent.
They might wait until the child They feels like more able to sort of autonomously make needs known There is no right answer here.
Some of this is going to come down to money You know, are you going to be able to secure housing for you and your child and your children the way you want?
Getting access to mental health for that child while before before you ever make a decision on a divorce is crucial I can promise you this Once that marriage splits and you don't make the proper stipulations in the parenting agreement that parent will stop therapy I see this happen over and over again They
insist on two -party consent for things like mental health services and then the narcissistic parent won't sign It's back to court back to court back to court So get that child into therapy while you only need the signature of one parent because you're both still married Get your ducks in line talk to
a divorce attorney pay whatever they charge for an hour go in there prepared Tax returns, whatever you need and ask them what am I looking at?
What are the laws of this state?
Because they're different in every state.
What am I looking at with custody?
What am I looking at with money?
I think the problem is is that too many people don't go into this conversation prepared marriage is a legal contract Make no mistake people read their rental car contracts more carefully than they understand exactly what the hell They're getting into when they marry someone and so figure this out even
if you're not going to get divorced for 10 years Getting that clear feedback from a divorce attorney Makes a huge difference in your decision -making when I read a message like this This is the first time somebody vocalizes that they're considering leaving I know that they're on their way out it may take
five years it may take eight years They might even wait till that child's 18th birthday, which I cannot tell you how many people I know Waited to midnight on their child's 18th birthday And then they started the process by that next day they had filed for divorce no custody and I have to be honest with you
I really wish you were gonna say get out now.
No because never I I know I'm just being honest because I You want a clear -cut?
I know and there's not one There's not the systems don't allow it mail family court is one of the most abusive systems in this country There are people involved in court reform the stuff they bring to me I'm thinking this is not in the best interest of the child if you get unlucky with the judge you're
screwed well, and also I think all of us have some friend or family member that is watching a divorce play out a decade later Constantly going back into court because it's a way for somebody with a narcissistic personality style punishing to continue punishing and being in control It's called post -separation abuse.
It's a formal thing, but They keep going and going and going but I will say this and something I tell Many many parents a mistake they make I think too many people are like I'm gonna fight for my child No matter what and the narcissistic person grabs onto that and like oh is that your weak point?
but if you I remember once coaching a woman and She wanted to play this whole mother lioness thing I'm like slow it down and instead when she was that they were having one of these many hearings They'd go through she said, you know, I'm this this and she was dying inside at the agreement that was coming
down the pipe And she said okay, that's great.
You know what actually these alternate weekends This is gonna work great for me because there are so many friends I've been wanting to connect with and I've been you know, I've been wanting to get back into some of this You know the hiking and climbing I was doing this is actually I'm gonna really use
the weekends Well, you know that fool he's like, um, what?
Yeah, no, no, don't think you're just gonna know no No, wait wait.
And so when she when it got framed as you know, that's she was totally cool at it You know, she said totally fine get it.
I'm actually this this is great I mean it's good to know this because you know I've been wanting to do this stuff and pursue this and you know So I'll be using that time well, and I'm sure the kids will love spending time with you And by the time the whole thing was done 80 -20 instead of the 50 -50.
Well, you are Just hammering one message strategy strategy strategy Acceptance of what it is.
You're never changing this.
It's only gonna get worse.
You got to accept it.
You got to be strategic Right.
I've got rapid -fire questions and for you listening.
I know you're getting so much already But I want to tell you to stay with us I want to take a quick pause so you can hear a word from our sponsors Our sponsors allow me to bring somebody amazing like dr Romany to you at zero cost when we come back One of the questions that I saw the most in the inbox
for dr. Romani She's gonna answer it.
You do not want to miss this stay with us You Welcome back.
Thanks for listening to the sponsors and being here for this remarkable conversation with dr Romani diversila one of the world's leading experts on narcissism today She is taking your questions from listeners around the world.
So dr. Romani This next question is one about leaving someone.
How do you deal with a narcissist?
Who won't accept your boundaries?
My mom is a narcissist and whenever I try to set a boundary she will Act receptive or understanding at first then an hour or two later.
She will change your mind reject my boundary request Unfortunately, the minute you disagree with her or upset her she tries to quote punish you by cutting you out of her life Right.
So setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine It's really a bad idea and it's a fool's errand, right?
I'm tired of people giving guidance to people like set boundaries.
Wait, why aren't we supposed to know with narcissist?
You said I'm with everybody else But this is a pointless endeavor and all it does is create more friction in this kind of drama this person's having With their mother who is silent Treatmenting and being sullen and all these other things so this idea of setting boundaries with a narcissistic person I
always say it's an inside job And where you're there if you say to them, I don't want you to talk about this I don't want you to come this you are basically inviting them to do that thing because they know they can mess with you All right So unless you want to spend the remainder of your time on this planet
getting into a power struggle with them Which I just said you cannot win then Your better bet is to set an internal boundary, which is I now know that these Topics are off limits.
I know that if I invite this person to this event, this is gonna happen So I'm gonna have to figure out an alternative.
I know if I make a reservation with them for dinner They're gonna show up 25 minutes late So I need to make a reservation at that place that seats us when we're not yet a complete party Some people say well, you're enabling the narcissist You're actually not Because there's no setting a boundary with them
and you want to have the dinner and you may have to invite them But at least y 'all can start eating and when they come in and say how dare you start with us We said the we said to come at seven.
You didn't come at seven.
They seated us. We started eating you set a boundary.
I Love that distinction because you're right when you say I'm gonna set a boundary with somebody who's narcissistic It implies that you're gonna tell them about it.
Yeah versus you're just saying just Understand the situation for what it is understand the person is not changing recognize the patterns and Set sort of this boundary with yourself Like for me the one that I have in my life with a particular person is it's a three -night limit That's right because exactly
by day for this person gets prickly So you Mel you would never say to that person we have a three -night limit.
No, oh, oh my god No This that what a lot of people say well If a person is saying things that offend you you need to say that thing you're saying is offending me Tigers cage try that with the narcissus call me up.
Let me know how that works.
Yeah, and like I also don't Set the boundaries that are like I don't talk about politics with you because you're an absolutely irrational freak that then dominates the conversation If anybody asks a question or tries to Offer a different point of view.
I set a boundary with myself.
I get up from the table.
I don't engage That's right that you don't in case because I know exactly what's about to happen.
I have no hope of it being different I have accepted it.
I set the boundary.
I don't engage in this stuff.
I remove myself That's a boundary not what this this poor person Unfortunately is trying to do the impossible with the mother and will be forever disappointed, right?
Cuz if you go mom Let's not talk about by right, you know what I'm talking about politics cuz you know, yeah, we all know how that goes Yep, got it internal boundaries only I say boundaries are an inside game.
I love that my child Hmm is a narcissist Teenager hmm, how can I help them?
Okay. So first of all, let's always slow our role when we're using the word narcissism and teenager Okay by definition Adolescence is a phase of life where the child is going through something called separation and individuation Adolescence are tough Right.
They are mean to their parents and often quite lovely with their peers and there's a reason for that the separation Individuation process means that the peers are more of a meaningful social reference point So they'll actually be lovely with their peers listen to their problems pick them up late at night
bring them soup when they're sick and scream at you who even dare mention emptying the dishwasher and There's a there's a common sort of therapist talk.
Is that an adolescent is often going through a phase we call shitting the nest Shitting the nest and if they shoot the nest and it's a lot easier for everyone to say get out and For the kid to leave like this is gross.
I don't want to be here So all that mean behavior is sometimes part and parcel of shitting the nest.
So we have to be able to Figure out if it's that narcissism is a story that can be told beautifully backwards But it's very difficult to tell forwards and in real time with an adolescent For example, what I mean is show me a 35 year old narcissist and I will show you someone who is horrible as a teenager
Show me someone who is horrible as a teenager I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35 Really the frontal lobes are continuing to develop a lot of that kind of lack of social awareness Impulsivity all that sitting up here that part does not fully cement and set until around 25
26 27 years old Adolescents really if you want to look at it developmentally doesn't matter that they can drive and vote and by alcohol It really is it goes until about 25 26.
That's when adulthood starts So I'd say to people of narcissistic adolescents white knuckle this a bit have whatever limits you need in your household Be realistic about them Remember the concept of shitting the nest and put a pin in it for about eight years and then revisit So let's just kind of unpack
this a little bit because I'm sure there's a ton of you that are listening right now They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
But what if I am seeing?
Narcissistic traits, yeah, because one of the things that you have okay well, let me just stop right there because you just said you probably are what you're saying is that the very natural normal and mentally healthy process of a teenager separating from their parents is for them to become more egotistical
More demonstrative more selfish and to prioritize entitled however if you're seeing that and you are concerned and maybe you're concerned because you're in a family system or Grandparents or narcissistic or you have an ex who is narcissistic.
So you do have some concern.
Is there something that you can model?
that helps to keep somebody on a Adaptive personality track versus spinning into more of a maladaptive or you basically saying there's really not much You can do but white knuckle yourself if you want to be sure yes figure out how your kids are behaving with their peers because if they have healthy
peer relationships that seem Reciprocal that seem mutual if other adults are having good experience if you're if you're a friend with a parent that of a kid that they hang out with and that parents like your kids great like then this is definitely the adolescent nonsense of shitting the Nest right because they're
able to show up as solid people for other people if however, they're behaving horribly across the board mistreating peers Having problems in school then you're much more likely to be dealing with narcissism Does that make sense that makes a lot of sense?
And is there anything if you're seeing that that you can do or is this?
Already just a bed that's made it's a tough it's a tough one at that point I think that it is not getting into a power struggle with them becomes crucial because if indeed you've got this Difficult across the board difficult with the teachers difficult with you difficult with peers kind of kid difficult
And they're you know, they're part -time job whatever You getting into a power struggle with them.
You're going to lose it You're not gonna win because no one can win a power struggle with someone who's narcissistic and with an adolescent That's going to be even more amped up because they don't feel a sense of power because they're still in your good Graces and all of that.
So don't get into a power struggle.
Okay, don't basically don't let the dishwasher be the hill You die on because it's really not worth it, right?
But it's because what we're at a lot where narcissism is in adolescents Other bad behaviors are also likely to hang out including things like substance use and so What you really do want to watch for is actually keep more of an eye on is your kids safe?
How is their mental health functioning in other areas?
If you are able to encourage therapy that kids probably going to say no, it's worth a shot Definitely Figure out what it is that does speak to them and cultivate their interest in that because if there's something that they like Maybe it's music maybe it's a form of sport maybe whatever it is show some
interest in what they do because we can get so caught up in the power struggle of you're gonna empty The dishwasher if it's the last thing you do versus who's this kind of difficult kid of mine?
But we get so caught up in the difficult of it all We don't we don't pay attention to like what do they like?
So you might see them playing a video game right instead of like all these kids in their video games It's you never emptied the dishwasher.
All you do is play the video games like what's this game about?
Like what? Talk to me about I'm just curious now.
You probably get a lot of meh.
Mmm, but you never know well, I think it gets in there I think you pull a chair up and you just sit next to them and You just sit by them while they're playing the video game and even just doing that Shows a level of interest and so I love that advice now the next question that I have is I Don't know
like it's it's a good question.
Can a narcissist Actually be legitimately in love with somebody.
Oh, I can see dr. Ramani's wheels already spinning.
So we're gonna take a quick Pause to hear a word from our sponsor and she's gonna have that answer for you when we return stay with us I Welcome back.
I'm Mel Robbins and I'm here with the amazing dr.
Ramani Diversola. We are taking your questions about Narcissism and one of our listeners wants to know is there any way for a narcissist to find true love with a partner?
I mean like a personality type that a narcissist could be with where both people are happy So now we get into philosophy, right?
What is love? Is there a universal definition and the problem is no there's not I think probably the most powerful thing people could do by their third Date, I wish you know how you go to the doctor.
They make you sign the informed consent.
Yes I wish we had that for love say put your piece of paper in front of someone this my definition of love Because their definition of love is very transactional It's it and they're not aware of what their definition of love their definition of love is basically I'm going to swallow you up You're going
to be for me. It's a very romantic passionate definition of love what they're not good at is long -term Companionate love so this idea of true love right with all the depth that's implied the mutuality the reciprocity the better or worse the the standing at someone's side even when they Get older or need
care or need help or you know Who are more starting to get more successful than you all the things that would throw a narcissistic person off I would say the short answer to that question is probably not on the basis of what we consider healthy love to be theirs is a Much much more shallow shallow definition for them
Love is very romantic very passionate very flash in the pan very crush.
That's what it is It's not the the deep deep stuff It's not give and take is what I've learned from you.
It's not only not give and take it's not good times and bad It's it's and it's also very status conscious and appearance conscious This is why you see again when he when a person who has been through a 30 year marriage with kids then trades in for a 27 year old partner and they're 60, you know based
on everything that you've taught us and That I've learned from your work when I read between the lines of this question, which I probably shouldn't is there any way for a narcissist to find true love I I Imagine somebody who is holding out hope That there could be a possibility or fear or fear that the narcissist
will go on and find true love with someone new because that's the big Fear of people who are left.
So the narcissistic person you're with someone.
Yeah Narcissistic person leaves they find new supply right away.
Right? Okay, and you're of course going through a real grief process So you're struggling with it the big fear is now they found their new person Are they going to change for the new person?
Are they going to be better for the new person?
Are they going to find true love for the new person?
That's how I read that question and the answer that's now I watched someone go through this a couple years ago I had a very up and down narcissistic relationship with someone went on for years yada yada yada and then they break up and Inside of a few months he meets someone new soul mate soul mate soul
mate Do you wish you me Bing Bing Bing alarm signs and they get engaged in like two months, right?
And the the person was still struggling like was having trouble meeting people and you know It was just sort of in a dark night of the soul and this person seems like they moved on and it was of little Solace to this person who was sort of left that this is not and there's no depth This is all performative
for narcissistic people.
Love is performative And this is where the social media has changed things, right?
Because the performative love Relationship is very much a staple of Instagram.
Look how happy we are Look how cute we are.
We're van lifing. We're traveling We're so great in love my lovey bear lovey never in my life Could there be a hero like you you are my love hero and then these fools break up in three months Nobody goes from love hero to broken up like this whole thing was a lie So it's again every therapist knows
the more they gush about the relationship on social media the more it's a train wreck And so it's performative Dr.
Romany, how do I deal with a narcissistic adult son?
Who uses our grandchildren as leverage for the silent treatment blame and manipulation?
So this is a very common dynamic and I'm so glad someone's asking about this So you have a narcissistic adult child fully grown obviously has you know gotten into a relationship has kids all of that, right?
the grandchildren become the greatest leverage of all leverage on the planet and this is Devastating for parents who and on multiple levels number one Because it's narcissism is a developmental state many parents will say What did I do wrong?
Am I partly responsible for this?
and it's particularly devastating if you did co -parent that child with a Narcissist and you did your very best you might have even been that co -parent who actually protected your kid But couldn't get out of the relationship or they were having to spend time with the narcissistic co -parent Whatever it
may be that you did what you could but you could not outrun this thing, right?
So that can be even more devastating So there's a sense of complicity that parents feel that you don't see in any other form of sort of narcissistic relationship number one then they have kids and you love those grandchildren and Now your narcissistic son Recognizes that they've basically got you over
a barrel. It's the ultimate tool of manipulation with narcissistic people the Struggle is is that it's very easy to create the monster by giving in to them, right?
They get they get used to it And what we do is we have to ask ourselves from a radical acceptance standpoint In fact something I talk about in the book is something called a person's true north, right?
So your true north is how I always tell people don't engage with the narcissist It's gonna get you nowhere simple answers disengage disengage disengage, right?
But the concept of your true north is the one time you will take the fight Right, whatever that might be it might mean the workaround you'll do it might be the argument you might have it might be the Tigers Cage you're willing to go into because it might be about you might be willing to take the fight
for your kid or your grandkid You might be willing to take the fight because somebody is saying something that's so noxious to you It's it's racist or some form of bias or something like that in this particular case This grandparent has to assess the true north of their grandchildren because the fact
is odds are that it's basically an extortionate setup, right?
To see the grandchildren they have to do the dance dictated by their son And so the radical acceptance may very well be that there are times They may not always get to see these grandchildren and the grief that goes with that.
It's figuring out the true north Maybe the birthday party is your everything so that might meet almost like a negotiation You're gonna give in on certain things with this son if they're something you can do so you can be at the true north of the birthday party or the graduation or having having them
what we know going on the vacation with them or not so you have to it becomes a constant calibration to Where do I want to see these kids?
Where am I willing to relent because he's forever going to have you over a barrel So it's also if this person does they fully radically accept their son's behavior They may still be trying to change their son's behavior They may have hoped for change you're gonna have to eradicate that in many ways
Their son has been brought down to nothing more than the portal to those grandchildren So instead of putting behavioral standards on the son who is narcissistic They have to figure out what the ritualistic dance They need to do is to go through the portal to see the grandkids gotcha And so the radical
acceptance there is really just understanding.
This is what it is.
This is what it is That's an I can hate the dance I have to do I can hate the kind of hoops I have to jump through But it's more important to me because I value a relationship with these grandkids and I understand This is the axis point right and it could very well be we don't know this because they
don't make it clear in the question They may be talking to their son as though they think he's listening to them like a normal person would a mistake a lot of people Make with narcissistic people is they they actually try to appeal to some sensitivity and then like We love your children So much we would do
anything for them like we blah blah blah save you the money on the babysitter blah blah blah We'll do anything.
Can't you see how much we care about them data data?
We've made trust fund whatever the hell it is people are saying about the grandkids.
They're not listening They're not going to pay attention all they see is that I have got the ultimate Tool here to get what I need from these people if you have an adult narcissistic child if I can only you know issue sort of one warning make sure your finances are in order and safe because an adult
Narcissistic child it is not unusual for them to pray on older parents Try to get the names on the note of a house try to get power of attorney in a way They're gonna abuse make sure that if you do have stuff to hand down you work with a good attorney It's hard to think of this way about your own child
But Mel if I could tell you some of the stories I've seen with the way adult narcissistic children have Completely plowed through their parents money and really put their parents in a precarious spot I'm not saying that's the case in this one But you've got to be careful of all these angles and if this son for example
is at all trying to get into the family's Money in some ways it's almost becomes a pay -to -play wherever you're paying to do you know to play you've got to be aware of that Well, I think if somebody is willing to use Innocent kids as human capital to manipulate adults to get what you want That seems
a lot more egregious than manipulating your money.
Yep, you know, I've seen this question a lot in the form of How do I deal with the fact that my adult child is now married to?
Or engaged to somebody who's narcissistic and that new partner is turning them Against us.
Yeah, and this feels like it's similar but how Do you counsel parents that recognize that this is actually what's happening?
We had a great relationship with our yeah adult child Now they're in a relationship with somebody else.
It feels like that person is turning our child against them How do you counsel somebody in that situation?
Is it the same thing?
It's no It's different right because in the case of the narcissistic son The they're sort of a direct line to the Sun, right?
They've known this on his whole life, you know Who knows what historically has happened they may you know may very well be that they like yeah We dropped the ball when he was little and now we're we've been trying to make amends ever since and now that he's got Kids and we want access to the kids.
We actually in some ways It's like it's the spoiled child phenomenon.
They're doing anything the Sun wants.
That's their own kid Now if you have a kid that's yours and you have a great relationship with them into adulthood Your kid is not narcissistic, right?
But they meet someone Assisted that's a very different situation Because you know your kid has the apparatus the solid apparatus of goodness Whatever that you know, at least to be a have a mutual and reciprocal relationship with you so the the big mistake people will say especially when your person your
child is in love with someone and is about to get married and is in sort of the Blissy state that you say I'm worried that they're narcissistic is the biggest mistake you could make you never want to do that You want to try to?
Illuminate the patterns without saying like what he said was toxic or that wasn't okay, but rather Dropping in the lines in the water like things like hey you okay Like we're not hearing from you as much as everything.
Okay now you might hear them say like gosh What's wrong with you?
Like I have my own life now.
No, no, I hear that Like I just I completely understand that you want it You want to keep feeling it out filling it up There's actually we can take a page out of the playbook of what happens to people when family members recognize a family members in a cult Dr.
Yanya Lalich, she talks about doing something called breaking the shelf What she means is that when you have a family member who goes into a cult you can't say yo You're in a cult because they're gonna say no I'm not this is my group of healing friends that want to self -develop together Right and they're
gonna say they told me you would say this I knew it to hell with you and the cult's gonna want them to cut that parent off, right?
So what she says is you you need to do is you want to break the shelf and what that means is Remind them of the life they had before the cult so it's gentle conversations like oh my gosh You're not gonna believe you remember how you love to surf, you know, I was it's so weird I was just driving down
that you know the old street that stream, you know He made this the surfboard shop so much bigger Like how are you doing?
Like how's the surfing going?
You're planting like you're not surfing anymore Are you or we're getting ready for whatever the ski trip and what?
You're just reminding them like I remember how much you wanted to write like how's that going?
Like have you been writing more or whatever you're writing?
But you're trying to bring them back to themselves and sometimes so we know you're not even talking about the partner You're talking about the them who is likely getting lost in this relationship you might have a better chance of doing what dr Laudish calls breaking the shelf and being letting them
then be able to start to see like, okay something's changing It's not always a sure thing But you know ideally you can then say, you know, especially if you notice a difficult interaction Instead of saying that wasn't okay.
You might want to say hey you okay?
I just saw that I just wanted to check in That's great because then you get the wheels turning.
That's all you want to do is turn the wheels got it.
Okay, this is a really Juicy question.
Okay, even though it's really like not okay.
It's sad. Yeah Um Dr.
Romney my dad is a perverted narcissist.
I don't know what that means but is a perverted narcissist and has Psychopathic traits.
He has met a woman.
He is very interested in this woman is in a higher tax bracket than him and Has never married and he has her wrapped around his finger.
He's presented a version of himself to her that is not real And he's using the same methods he used on my mom I feel like I can't let her get sucked into his lies But is it my position to do so it irks me so badly to see the mask He presents and it upsets me that it took her less than a month to fall
for his performance Did this person call the father a psychopath?
Yes, okay So let's let's use this question as a jumping -off point on the difference between narcissism and psychopathy, right?
Okay. I don't know if this person's father psychopathic was gonna go on good faith.
They believe they are it's a difference Okay, even the most malignant narcissist is not going to be psychopathic When we jump the rails into psychopathy, we're talking about someone who is cold callous Calculating deceitful lacks any empathy lacks remorse is often Superficially charming can be very
intelligent has an incredible capacity for running a hustle These are these are your grifters.
Okay, these are people who are able to create very very Elaborate lies live double live live parasitic lifestyles go and destroy one person's life move someplace else and leave no sort of no Trace of any of that, right?
Drawing someone into a new relationship very quickly where that person is falling under their control is very classically Something that a psychopath is able to do because psychopathic people lack remorse They can do far more harm to another person.
In addition psychopathic people don't have the insecurity and the anxiety we classically see in narcissism narcissism is still a sort of a little bit more of a chaotic interior psychopathic people are just cold and callous and So that seems to be what might be the case here Now the the way she's describing
is that this person was able to trick another person within a month.
That's very classically, you know yeah, it's more psychopathic than it is more like that narcissistic and The question is do you warn and many psychopathic people can be dangerous Mel?
So I want to make sure this person is safe Like I mean listen, I don't know if you've ever remembered the story the really popular podcast from way back of Dirty John Right that Dirty John was a guy who the same kind of grift and it culminated quite tragically He almost killed the the woman he had,
you know twisted around he almost killed her daughter.
Okay, that's why I'm saying that these people are dangerous and Because if anyone gets in the way of their grift of their hustle, they will eradicate them.
So Assuming this woman is safe.
Okay, so I'm just gonna okay gigantic caveat you are safe, okay I don't think the new woman's gonna believe her a month in is very very fresh It is this person is fully indoctrinated being heavily love -bombed right?
They're not going to believe this and that the psychopath has already gotten to the new partner and told the new partner My daughter is jealous I think she's kind of weirdly in love with me.
He has crafted a whole story about the daughter So that makes the daughter look insane All right so when the daughter goes to new partner and says this the odds are That the psychopathic father has already done his homework This is a hard thing though, because if you value The truth and if I take to
heart everything that you taught us in the previous two episodes that we've done with you recently about the fact that Part of the the biggest barriers to your own healing from somebody like this is a sense of hope That it's going to change and the feeling of injustice and to me I would really wrestle
with the fact that based on my values Yeah, i'd want to be like get getting rid of this motherfucker like he's like he's bad news But on the other hand how but she can she can go up to her and say I want you to know this I don't know what he's told you Ideally show up with documentation This is who he
really is This is who he's really about then she's done her God's work of the day.
Yep And when this new person doesn't believe it then that's no longer her problem.
Got it. And as long as you can do that safely safely And that is something that you feel like doing whether it's because you feel the need to get justice served On behalf of you and your mom or not is irrelevant.
You might just honestly want to protect the new person Okay, gosh.
Wow This is a sad topic.
It's a very sad topic.
How do you keep from getting like Beaten down by this?
It's not always easy.
Like I do actually get sad quite a bit and I keep to myself and I guess in some ways I live a very simple life And I think there's a reason for that because I think otherwise it's a lot.
I don't trust people as much I mean, it's kind of a sad sort of sad thing That is sad, but i'm glad that you're putting it to use to help us Uh, my it's my pleasure.
I I find the work is so i've seen people help and that is really that that really matters Right i've got rapid fire questions.
My aging mother is a narcissist and i'm the one who has to take care of her How can I make this time bearable?
You have to keep orienting it to who you are Many many people will say I cannot believe now that it's all coming to a close and it's falling on my shoulders But people have to sometimes have to say like, you know, i'm a compassionate person.
This is an old person I don't know what would happen to them.
Otherwise Really put yourself into that role of I am showing up almost like a nurse Of an abusive patient They're prepared.
They're going to yell.
They're going to scream.
Do not expect gratitude.
It's going to be a nightmare Have therapy have supports.
Make sure you have meaningful pursuits outside of this caregiving But you almost have to go into an automaton state But also connected to the human being I am is compassionate good and empathic And this is an old person who needs to be cared for I can't stand her But i'll be damned if I let this woman leave
me like i'm not a compassionate person.
Oh do it for yourself Uh My father is a narcissist have not talked to him in five years.
I would like to reopen the door But i'm terrified i'm gonna get hurt.
How do I protect myself?
Well, he's going to hurt you So what you have to ask yourself, what's your agenda after five years?
What are you hoping for if you think that in five years because what's happened to this person in five years mel?
They've healed Or maybe not There's two levels There is the the deeper soul healing that may have happened, right?
But I want you to think of it as somebody's had a massive surgery That was going to be difficult to to heal from and when they're in the midst of the acute Acuity of it like I am never going to be able to walk again And then five years in they're like i'm going i'm running up the stairs, right?
And so now she's running up the stairs But what might still be happening is that internally there's still now when you're running up the stairs again euphoric recall We forget what it's like This is why this ick list becomes a living document remind everybody of the ick list The ick list is a list you
make of all the terrible things that are being said and done in that relationship everything from ruined my wedding to You know to lie to me about who my parent was to When I asked for a loan that would have made a difference didn't give it to me and i'm still paying off the extortion At loan I got
to insulted my children's weight like write it all cheated on me with my best friend Whatever's on your list write it down When you think possibility of changes or you need to look at that and say why would I even interact with this person?
But in this case after five years, some people may say I know that I know this person's limitations So you have to ask yourself if this person comes at me again Will I be able to withstand this or will this take a toll on me?
That's a question only they can answer some work.
I tend to do in therapy with clients is we play it out as a role play Dr.
Ramani compassionate i'm like don't be a dumb motherfucker This guy has not changed at all and you're walking into the tiger's cage Please please caution caution caution At least read dr.
Ramani's best selling book.
It's not you Listen to her podcast Watch her youtube channel.
Your advice is transformative and the message is clear They are not changing, but you can we love you.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Well, you know, I kind of ended on a joke But your message is actually really empowering because when you understand what you're dealing with You can take the steps to protect yourself and still act Aligned with your values But you have to accept What you're dealing with and give up hope that it's changing
and walk into it with that understanding And One more thing before I leave I want to make sure that you hear from me in case nobody else tells you Because if you're surrounded by narcissists nobody has That I believe in you I know dr Ramani believes in you too and I love you and I believe in your ability
to take everything you're learning And use it to empower yourself to create about your life.
I'll talk to you in a few days Let's do this, uh, let me just get my hair up here because it'll flop down.
All right, you guys start?
Okay All right, dr.
Ramani. Oh no go you take that I felt like I had like still like shop lifted.
Oh, I'm sorry You do whatever you want.
We're gonna wait and it's no big deal.
You take the time Wait, what am I doing?
Oh, oh my god. Okay, you're ready.
Okay. Gotcha. Okay.
Thank you Oh and one more thing and no this is not a blooper This is the legal language, you know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes I'm just your friend I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not Intended
as a substitute for the advice of a physician professional coach Psychotherapist or other qualified professional got it good.
I'll see you in the next episode Stitcher
