You're listening to Roundtable, I'm Yuhong Lin, joined by Steve and Yu Shen.
What's going on with our drinks these days?
First, they took the sugar out, then the fat, and now it looks like caffeine is on the chopping block.
That's right, welcome to the latest beverage trend in China, where wellness water is replacing your daily coffee buzz.
Stick around as we break down how caffeine went from hero to zero, and then we introduce you to the world of eyebrows.
Fittish 50 shades and 50 shapes, let's find the best type for you.
But now, get ready for a major shakeup in your drink choices.
For years, caffeine has been the secret ingredient that helped us power through long days and late nights.
But now, the tide is turning.
From ready -to -drink teas to fresh -brewed coffee, the caffeine cleanse is in full swing.
Across China and maybe around the world, people are embracing healthier, low -caffeine alternatives, signaling a new era in the beverage industry.
I wanna ask both of you, what kind of drinker, well that sounds a bit weird, what kind of person are you?
Are you a decaf guy?
Why or are you a high -taste guy?
I mean, coffee is meant to be there to serve caffeine, so.
Well, let's not be too critical of the decaf drinkers because some people enjoy the taste of coffee.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because coffee doesn't really taste that good, does it?
Yes, it does. Does it really?
It tastes, well. I'm not, you see my point.
I love coffee, don't get me wrong.
I drink two cups of coffee a day, one in the morning and one after lunch in the afternoon.
But if I'm being totally honest about the flavor of coffee, it's kind of bitter.
It's not really, it's not sweet at all unless you put some syrup or sugar in it.
Or have a cake to pair up with.
Fair point. But yeah, it's kind of an odd drink in that way.
People love it around the world, but decaf, yeah.
It's becoming even more popular these days.
I mean, my habit is more of a one cup of Americano in the morning or something like double double, which is double milk and double sugar.
Two cream, two sugar.
That's the Canadian style of drinking coffee, yeah.
But yeah, it's like you have to drink coffee in the morning.
For me, that is the rule of going to work because I need that little boost of energy just so that helped me to focus a bit more.
What happens, how do you feel if you don't have your morning cup of coffee?
Yeah, just like my mind is so easy to get distracted in a way that I find it hard to focus.
That's why I think decaf works for me better if I'm ever to try it in the afternoon.
If I'm ever to try, you've never even tried decaf before.
Well, I don't think so, no.
Actually, to bust a myth, decaf doesn't mean caffeine free.
It's like how low fat doesn't mean no fat.
Actually, decaf coffee typically contains one or two or one to two percent of the original caffeine content.
So if a regular coffee has, let's say, 100 milligrams of caffeine, a decaf version is around one to two milligrams.
So for those who are a little bit allergic or really super sensitive to caffeine, maybe even decaf coffee is not a choice.
But I have to confess, I myself enjoy decaf coffee.
Yeah, I have different types of decaf coffee right just in the office.
And to me, decaf coffee is kind of like a movie on Milt mode.
It's still fantastic, just quieter.
And it's like your regular coffee's little brother.
You still get the flavor, you still get the taste, just minus the caffeine chorus line that's running in your brain.
It's like an orchestra or something.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
And you're not wrong about any of the things that you said.
But if I know, and this is just my brain, if I know I'm drinking a decaf cup of coffee, I don't enjoy it.
Because I know, I'm not talking about the taste or the flavor or anything like that.
It's because I know there's no caffeine in there.
So I can't enjoy it to its fullest extent.
But that's nothing about the coffee itself.
That's just about me and my caffeine addiction.
Or rather, our definition about certain drinks.
Because in my dictionary, coffee means give me caffeine.
And if I don't want caffeine, I drink something else.
And I think the idea of decaf works better for other beverages other than coffee.
I think this is only from my personal view.
But for sometimes, even lemonade or milk tea, bubble teas, when these beverages that you normally can consume as a way of just feeling delightful and feeling happy, I want this drink not to focus on work, but just to try to have a good time and not necessarily aiming at the caffeine in it, then decaf
in these just leisure beverages should work better, right?
We are only talking about coffee so far.
But there are plenty of beverages out there with caffeine.
And now caffeine is kind of the target of the beverage industry in the sense that now younger people are looking to go in a direction with beverages that don't have caffeine.
Yes, because caffeine is actually everywhere.
The reason that I'm going decaf is because it is an option that I know that has the taste of coffee yet do not contain caffeine.
Because if you think about it, tea leaves, including those used for black tea, green tea, white tea, oolong tea, naturally contain caffeine.
And the amount of caffeine can vary depending on the type of tea, of course, and how it's produced.
Actually, according to a 2021 report, adults in China get most of their caffeine from tea leaves because Chinese people drink tea more often.
And caffeine levels in black tea often used to make bubble tea, which is another really popular drink, especially among the young consumers here in China, are typically higher than in green or oolong tea.
So for example, if we talk about a serve of coffee or a serve of tea, or just one usual cup, not the huge ones, the venti ones, not the smaller ones, just the usual medium -sized cup of coffee or tea.
If it's a cup of black tea, it typically has 40 to 50 milligrams of coffee, a cup of green tea or jasmine tea, that will be 20 to 30 milligrams.
And if we're talking about a cup of coffee, that's between 80 to 180 milligrams of caffeine.
This means if you're drinking coffee, yes, you can track the amount of caffeine you take in.
But if in the meantime, you're also drinking tea, also drinking milk tea, you will not know how much you're taking into your system.
And that could be a problem.
Yeah, there's a direct correlation between caffeine and coffee.
But I still think people, you know, even though people are aware that there's caffeine and tea, there's no immediate connection.
But even if people do know, and they get a lot of caffeine from their teas, that's why wellness waters have become so popular with people of all ages, because they boast zero in terms of caffeine.
And young people now, they're seeing it as a replacement, not only for coffee and tea, but also for water.
People don't like water.
I don't understand this.
I don't understand it.
Do you enjoy water?
Do you like water? Oh my gosh, I feel like I'm being, my deepest secret is being pulled out from you guys.
But yeah, I know, okay, I know the importance of staying hydrated.
It's just not necessarily have to come from water.
Yeah, right. Some people don't like water.
She doesn't like water.
Some people don't like water.
And I kind of get it.
I mean, it doesn't really taste like anything.
Before I get more criticism on liking water, let me just tell you, this has been a trend among young people in China for a long time.
And data shows that the market size for traditional wellness water in China reached 450 million yuan, or roughly $63 million in 2023 alone.
And that has been making a more than, say, 350 % increase.
And the market is expected to grow as a compound annual growth rate of over 88 % over the next five years.
Let's say this whole water replacement campaign formed by young people in China nowadays is, you know, sort of the future.
Yeah. And since we're talking numbers, actually, if we take a look at the decaf market, meaning decaf coffee only kind of market, a couple of years ago, it's around 20 billion US dollars.
And by the end of this decade, well, it's almost a $30 billion already.
So the market is that huge.
And that is part of the reasons that we are discussing this issue nowadays.
People care about their health.
People also care about taste.
They want something to be sweet, but they do not want sugar in it.
They want something to taste rich, but they do not want fat in it.
Now, I personally like the taste of coffee.
I understand what Steve has said, and I agree it's a weird drink, but it grows on you.
Yeah, I know. You get used to it.
And when I get used to the taste of coffee, yet I started to be a little bit concerned about the caffeine intake, I go to decaf.
And I have to admit one thing, and maybe it is the reason for some people like myself.
That is, I am used to having coffee every day.
And when I got pregnant several years ago, I realized I shouldn't do that.
Because if we're talking about dosage, actually, for a pregnant lady, as long as you're not having over 200 milligrams of caffeine every day, you're fine.
That means one cup of coffee.
So what do I do when I want more?
I go to decaf. Yeah, and that's the perfect solution, isn't it?
Yes, it's the perfect solution.
Right, and the decaf market is growing, but it's not just pregnant women that it's become popular with.
Swiss Water did a survey, and they found that Gen Z are turning to decaffeinated versions of coffee.
So yes, decaf versions of other beverages like Wellness Water, too.
But coming back to the topic of coffee, 68 % of the people who answered the question said that they have increased their decaf consumption since COVID.
So there, COVID played a role in people switching to decaf.
I don't have information survey -wise on why that was or if that's an immediate connection.
But anyway, the result is 68 % have increased their decaf coffee drinking since the pandemic.
I think one point that could be raised there is that people start to look more into their health and well -being in general.
Like comprehensively, how much caffeine do I need?
Or as a standard, likewise, could vary between individuals.
How much would I feel my maximum comparing with the standards that's been listed?
Like Hongli mentioned, for pregnant or breastfeeding women, there should be a limit of less than 20 milligrams per day of caffeine consumed.
And also a 235 milligrams cup of coffee typically contains around 133 milligrams of caffeine.
So usually, we say that consuming two or three cups of coffee a day is generally considered okay.
But let's just keep it in mind that people react to caffeine differently.
So we have to know our limits in a way that we know how to preserve our health while receiving the reflections or the estimated results that we want from caffeine.
On behalf of caffeine or coffee in general, actually, there are benefits.
For example, for regular coffee and not decaf coffee, it can improve mood, reaction time, memory and mental function.
It can increase metabolic rate and fat burning.
It can enhance athletic performance, but don't do it before a professional race.
And it can reduce risk of mild depression.
And it, well, I think there are many perks as well.
Listen, you don't need to tell me you're preaching to the choir on this one.
Interesting to know though, you know, you talk about 68 % of respondents, Gen Z respondents saying that they're switching over to Gen Z or that they're switching over to decaf coffee.
Well, when a statistic comes out like that, coffee companies, their ears perk up and they say, oh, okay, well, we have to respond.
And they have done just that.
Companies like Pete's and Seesaw, they've expanded their menus to include low caffeine options.
Starbucks has done so.
Tim Hortons has done so.
In fact, they've dedicated sections four specifically low caffeine drinks.
So they've even separated it on their menu to make it clear which ones don't have as much caffeine.
Starbucks, interesting.
They have a fresh coffee.
They call it fresh coffee.
That's a low caffeine juice drink that's made from raw coffee bean extract.
And it has some third the caffeine of a standard Americano.
So I found that to be a bit fascinating is that companies, coffee companies aren't saying, okay, we're going to introduce a massive decaf section for you.
But here's what we will do.
We'll introduce a new product line for you that has a lot less caffeine than a typical cup of coffee.
Speaking of product lines, it's the similar trend is also taking place here in China as well.
This data shows that from a 2023 report on China coffee market, and that is released by domestic coffee industry media called common.
And among the 291 products from nine coffee brands, 93 are non coffee products accounting for almost 32 % of the total amount of products that they're offering to the general public.
So yeah, we do have a relatively big amount of drinks that we can select from, from these say coffee brands or beverage brands, that's other than coffee.
And also it's fell into the category of decaf.
Yeah, what can I say people want their drugs without their drugs.
So as long as you're enjoying it, it's a brave new world out there for drink lovers.
But hey, change can be good, whether you're a team caffeine or all about that wellness life.
One thing is for sure.
The beverage industry is always full of surprises.
You're listening to roundtable coming up next eyebrows, small but mighty.
They've been shaping our faces and our beauty ideals for centuries.
Today, we invite you to join us and explore the history and evolution of eyebrows.
Stay tuned. Looking for passion?
How about fiery debate?
Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives?
Then tune in to roundtable where East meets West and understanding is the goal.
It's roundtable with myself, Neil Honglin, Steve Hatherly, and Yu Shen who would have thought something as simple as eyebrows could have such a colorful history.
From Beijing to Paris, eyebrow trends have gone through quite the evolution.
Whether it's thin dramatic arches or the thick natural look, these little stripes of hair have shaped beauty standards across cultures.
Let's talk about how eyebrows became the ultimate fashion accessories to start with.
I want to ask first.
In Chinese history, there are so many different shapes of eyebrows.
Before doing today's topic, it's relevant to every single person, yet it sounds not that debatable, but there are so many interesting facts in Chinese history of eyebrows, isn't there?
Oh yeah, and there's a lot of metaphors of different shapes of eyebrows that's in our poems and classical literatures from ancient times as well.
As early as the warring period, that's between the 476 BC till 221 BC, the women back then would remove their own eyebrow hairs and draw the ideal shape of long and thin eyebrows falling off from their brow bone as a way of showing integrity or high spirits in a way.
Back then, there's this makeup products called Luozi Dai, or Dai in general, that's been very famously known as one of the most expensive, exquisitely made makeup products from ancient China.
It's sort of like a semi -stone, semi -ink kind of artifact that you can dip your brush into the water and put it onto that stone and grab the, say, the powdery color from it and then just draw the eyebrow doing water painting on your face.
So that's like a traditional makeup trend back then in very ancient times here in China.
And also during the Western Han dynasty from 202 BC to 9 AD, there's this long and slim eyebrow style that's been quite famous.
And there's one anecdote that I found that I, not I found, but rather I grew up learning about this, that there's this guy who was a governmental official, his name is Zhang Cheng.
He is best known not for his career in government, but rather for the fact that he has this habit of drawing eyebrow for his wife every single morning before he leaves home to work as a gesture of showing intimacy and love for his for his wife.
And this gesture has been record as such an intimate action of showing love from a man to a woman.
I have never heard about that.
Just as simple as drawing your wife or girlfriend's eyebrow.
I mean, I would never let my boyfriend touch my eyebrows for the record, but yeah, that's been a very interesting fact from ancient China.
The Reason listener, if you're curious to know, why are you talking about eyebrows on the show today?
First of all, we're roundtable and we talk about everything, but the reason specifically, it popped up in the news not too long ago.
There was a Paris Fashion Week that happened and then there was a makeup artist at Paris Fashion Week who painted these very, very fine lines on the models for a specific fashion show.
And it brought back the idea of ultra thin eyebrows in that kind of modeling fashion culture.
Interesting because this was a hot thing back in the 1990s.
Models, celebrities, they all did it.
They were all painting their eyebrows super, super thin or at least trying to design them that way.
And then artists like Zendaya got on board and then FKA twigs, if you're not familiar, it's a singer, Doja Cat, another singer, all going with these super thin eyebrows.
And now the trend is back these days.
If we're talking about fashion, I think definitely it circles back again and again and again, because talking about different shapes of eyebrows in Chinese history, the super thin one occurred in Chinese history several times as well.
And we have different, very beautiful names for different shapes of eyebrows.
We've got, for example, moon eyebrows.
That's the kind of eyebrow shape of a resemblance of a crescent moon.
And also we've got halo eyebrows.
That is the kind of eyebrow that the color of the edges of the eyebrows evenly dispersed outward, making it a little halo kind.
So are those meant to represent something about you or is that just a way to design yourself?
I feel like when it comes to eyebrow shapes, there are always two ways to go.
One is to be blend in the crowd to wear the most popular types of eyebrow at that specific time, even in your own area.
If you're in China, maybe at that time, it's the fine eyebrows.
So the super thin ones is trendy.
If you're in Western Europe, maybe it's supposed to be wild and bald and natural.
I wake up like this kind of eyebrows.
Like in ancient Greece and Rome, that is the style back then.
If you're representing that you're a strong and confident and very energetic person and you have very thick, thick eyebrows.
Anyway, so one way to go is to go with the trend.
And another way to go is to be very expressive of who you are and try to design a type of eyebrow shape that is best for you.
So it has always been these two choices.
Like David Beckham back in the early 2000s.
Do you remember what David Beckham did?
He's a soccer player, famous soccer player, if you're not familiar.
Back in the early 2000s, he did the eyebrow slit.
So he shaved a straight vertical line only on one part of his eyebrow.
So essentially separating your eyebrow into two different pieces.
That was a big thing at the time.
This is a big, this is a big, big industry.
I think when we think about this, well, we never think about our eyebrows, right?
So we think it can't be that big an industry.
It's $180 million industry in the United States alone.
Eyebrow grooming services.
It's a real thing. I had my eyebrows waxed once.
Why? I lost a bet with my sister.
That's why. And it was one of the worst experiences of my life, I can say.
It was shockingly painful.
And I don't think it made me look better, but my both of my sisters said I was much improved after that experience.
Well, actually, eyebrow shapes for boys nowadays is also a thing.
And you get to see that for those girls who are really good makeup artists for themselves, and they do not really have the techniques.
If they try to dye the eyebrow or basically draw the eyebrow of their boyfriends or their, I don't know, male colleagues, they might be doing a backdrop, which is why for those who want to, for example, decorate your face a little bit for a photo shooting scene, go to the professionals.
Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of standards of how you're going to design such a shape of eyebrows that suits your facial structure and your facial shape the best.
There's individual variations on that as well.
And a lot of times people, when trying to follow trends, they will design the super thick eyebrow that's been popular in Hollywood for a time, if not still ongoing popular right now.
And it doesn't really turn up so well on their faces, especially if it's for women doing really thick style kind of eyebrow.
I read an expert was talking about this, and the expert said, do not follow an eyebrow trend because it's probably not right for you.
The expert was saying that women or men will see what celebrities do and try to follow it.
And in fashion, that can work.
But according to the expert, it so doesn't work with eyebrows.
They're super dominating in your area because I visited the Xinjiang for a while a couple of years ago, and they have this Usma grass.
They use it to basically make eye pencil to dye or to draw the eyebrow.
And it can help your eyebrow grow even stronger and thicker.
So yeah, people there enjoy a thick and natural and bald eyebrow.
If everybody likes it.
I suppose so. Right.
You know, back in Hollywood, I found this out too.
During the silent film era of the 1920s, actresses would intentionally make their eyebrows really thin.
Why? Because with really thin eyebrows, you're able to use them effectively to express your emotions like surprise or shock or anger or disappointment.
That's one of the functions of the human eyebrow is that you can express yourself that way.
Also keep the sweat and rain out of your eyes.
But yeah, back in the silent film era, that was the design and it was used for functionality at the time.
And now I think the idea of expressing yourself through eyebrow has far changed from just a functional point of view.
But now it's used as a way to express our individuality, especially for girls doing this boy -brow trend that I grew up from back in the days.
That's, you know, it's no longer just to define brows so well structured in the past, but rather follow the natural flow of your actual brow hair.
Yes. And you can define your own beauty as always.
And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.
Leave us a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts or send us a message to roundtablepodcastatqq .com.
I'm Yeo Hong -lin with Steve and Yu Shen.
Thanks for listening.
Bye -bye.
