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We trained our leaders and now they should be better and so we're really focused on using space learning over time, different innovative techniques.
We talk about five by five communication.
So we live that too that everything is reinforced five times five different ways and you leave with a couple of changes that you're going to make and you're going to practice those along the way, not trying to change everything about your leadership all at once.
And we find that really works and also we're all about leaders as teachers.
So if we go in and teach multiple levels of an organization, we have this more senior leaders actively involved in reinforcing and so everybody's using the same language, everybody's on the same page.
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I'm excited to continue the conversation.
I'll catch you later. Karen, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yes, it is our pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself?
And what'd you do? Yeah, so I am the founder and CEO of Let's Grow Leaders.
And we're all about practical tools and techniques for human centered leaders.
You know, really how do you do leadership development programs that stick?
Britain, a couple of books.
One of we're here to talk about today.
Other books include courageous cultures and winning well.
I run Let's Grow Leaders with my husband, David Dye, and he is the co-author of our books as well.
And before founding Let's Grow Leaders, I was at Verizon for two decades.
So if you start to do the math on this, I am very old because I've been doing Let's Grow Leaders for 11 years.
But I did a variety. The reason I'm so focused on practical is I was in HR for 10 years.
But then I let a 20-chod your person sales team in 10,000 person customer service organization.
And I know you don't have a lot of time to digest a lot of theory, to apply to your leadership.
Sometimes you just need practical things you can do right away.
And so that's really been our focus.
Love that. I love the ode to practicality there because it's safer and easier, honestly, as a thought leader to live in theory.
Because if you don't nail down that precision, then you can't necessarily be wrong.
So I really, really appreciate the focus on practical tools that stick.
Yeah. I don't want the listeners to overlook that nuance there.
So practical tools that stick.
Tell us why you described it that way.
So many times people call us and say, well, I want to do leadership training.
But we brought in leadership consultants before.
And everybody had a great time.
They learned some things it seemed.
But three months later, we were all back to doing the same things.
And I think part of that happens for a variety of reasons.
One is try to cram too much in or somebody's there just to check the box and say, yep, we trained our leaders.
Now they should be better.
And so we're really focused on using space learning over time, different innovative techniques.
We talk about five by five communication.
So we live that too that everything is reinforced five times, five different ways.
And you leave with a couple of changes that you're going to make and you're going to practice those along the way, not trying to change everything about your leadership all at once.
And we find that really works.
And also we're all about leaders as teachers.
So if we go in and teach multiple levels of an organization, we have this more senior leaders actively involved in reinforcing.
And so everybody's using the same language.
Everybody's on the same page.
This is incredible. I think we could have a whole other episode on just your your approach to teaching and learning because I'm recognizing just in the way that you're describing this.
You think about it at a different level, which is really admirable.
So I'm going to have to refocus here because I want to make sure we can get on the book.
This is great. And so what was it that really drove you to write this book?
It's interesting. I think all of us have been just experiencing more conflict over the last couple of years.
And so actually, our publisher called us and said, somebody's got to write a really practical book on conflict.
We just had a meeting. Would you guys be up for it?
Which was funny because we really had to pause and think first for a variety of reasons.
One, everything we do is really researched based.
So if we weren't just going to like pound out a book, right?
We had to go do significant research.
So we did invested in the world workplace conflict and collaboration survey to really understand what was happening and wanted to do that first before we really agreed to write the book.
And the next thing we had to do is really look at ourselves because we're a husband and wife team leading a global leadership company in the middle of a pandemic in a crazy shift from a business.
We were having some conflict.
Yeah. And are we really qualified to write this book?
Are we doing the right things?
Are we walking the talk?
And so it was really spent some time thinking through that and doing the research.
And we realized that yeah, I mean, we do have conflict, but that conflict on the other side of that conflict is innovation.
It's better collaboration.
It's deeper relationship.
And so what we really believe is you've got to have the conversation and avoiding the conversation creates more long term conflict.
And so that's why we wrote that that's why we said yes, because we realized that we had something important to contribute.
And also in making it super, super practical in, you know, so many times our clients will call us and they'll say, Karen David, just give me the words.
Like I got this problem with my boss, just give me the words.
And you go through and you realize over the years, we have been giving people a lot of words.
And so putting that in a more systematized way because the book is called powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict.
And you can't obviously script every word anybody's ever going to use.
But we thought if there's a way we can really systematize that, we can get into the dimensions and why why we did it the way we did it.
It could be really useful for people who were in what we call an ace, which is an acute conflict emergency.
I love this. And Karen, going back to what you said initially, I would not trust a conflict resolution expert that does not themselves experience conflict.
Just want to put that out there.
But there's so much to explore here.
And so when you think about the research, what were some of the findings in your research leading up to the book?
Yeah. So the first thing we wanted to know is are we think there's more conflict, but is there really?
And so that we asked people are they and so we had 5,000 people in 45 countries and asked, are you experiencing less the same or more conflict?
And 70% were experiencing the same the more or significantly more conflict.
So that guess that it's harder was true.
But the other thing is that we really found out that there was really what we call new conflict cocktails, right?
There's new combinations of conflict that are making it really tricky for folks.
So you know, we went through a global pandemic where people were choosing their bubble.
And so there's this isolation of us and them.
And I'm actually physically scared of other people.
And at the same time, people are feeling lonely and disconnected.
Then we had all these shifts to remote work, many of whom did not fully come back.
And so you've got this longing for human connection.
But you also have people liking in some circumstances that are remote work.
But now we've got more global teams across multiple time zones.
I have one client who says there's only one hour of the day that he can get his whole team together in a meeting.
And the people in the Philippines are still joining at 9 p.m.
All right. So that's hard to build collaboration in an environment like that.
And then we have all these new shifts of expectations, like things that are not clear because we just assume.
So most conflict comes from an expectation violation of some sort.
So you and I are having a one-on-one, right?
And you don't turn your camera on.
And what if that ticks me off?
Well, he doesn't care. He does not even respect me enough to turn my your his camera on.
Well, that may not be. You may say, I can you know, we have such a good relationship.
And you know, I have Zoom fatigue and I feel so comfortable with you.
I don't have to buy camera on.
But if we don't have an expectation and we haven't talked about that, we're going to have some conflict.
And so it's all those new kinds of conversations that we have all the old conflict that we have.
Plus we have all this this new breed of conflict.
And so the one statistic was 70% same or more.
But then we asked people to think about a significant conflict that they had in the past and what would be their advice to their former self if they were faced with that conflict again.
And that was what was really fascinating.
55% said, I would stay calm.
And 21% said I would talk about it or talk about it sooner.
Well, to stay calm and talk about it, you need tools to do that because just telling somebody to calm down is about the worst way to get somebody to calm down as you know, as a expert here.
This is great. I've got a quick story for you.
So I was at this keynote and I talked to a listener and he said, Kwame, I love the podcast, but my favorite part, man, I love those commercials.
And I said, I don't think this is a true story.
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Now for that gentleman and that fictional story, this adds for you.
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If you are ever in a situation where you need somebody to get that fire in their belly, it's them to calm down.
That is exactly what you need to do to light their fire.
This is a really unique approach, Karen.
I really appreciate this because what you've done essentially is you started to map out the anatomy of some of these consistent conflicts that affect people in the workplace.
When you have the anatomy of the conflict and you can understand what those conflict cocktails entail, then it puts you in a better position to solve those conflicts because you have a more nuanced understanding.
I love this. The powerful phrases too, because I think a lot of folks are hesitant to actually tell people specifically what it is that they should say.
When you're thinking about the powerful phrases that you've used, what are some of the examples that came from the book?
The book itself has 300 powerful phrases and it's designed with a table of content so you could say what's going on.
Somebody's just stole credit from my work.
My boss is screaming f-bombs.
What do you do and you can go?
It really starts with four dimensions of productive conflict and 12 goats.
There are three goats, greatest of all time, powerful phrases for every dimension.
The first dimension is connection.
Are we connected as human beings?
This concept of connection happens at two levels.
It's the are we connected before we're even having a conversation?
Are we investing in that?
Which is so important to do deliberately?
And then how do you connect at the beginning of the conversation?
Imagine that you're in a conflict with a coworker.
Let's call him Joe. Now, if Joe is about to use a powerful phrase, he might say, this is one of our favorite connection goats.
I really care about you and I'm confident that we can find a solution we can work with here.
Okay, that's a reasonable, powerful phrase.
Now, if last week Joe got you out of the jam when your little kid was sick and by the way, he told your boss how great you are at pivot tables, you're like, oh, Joe does care about me and what's me to be successful?
I'm confident about this conflict too.
But if Joe, through you under the bus and your staff meeting the other day and you don't trust him, you could be like, that's a hard no with that powerful phrase, Joe.
I don't trust you. And so the connection happens at a macro level first.
But then how do you connect when you are in a conflict?
So that I really care about you or I care about this team, I care about our work and I'm confident is a good one.
Another one that we really love is simply tell me more.
So if somebody is coming to you and they are emotional, they're and you're like, oh, wow, can you tell me some more?
You know, like about what you're feeling about this.
Now the person feels hurt and they don't have to scream so loud because they know you're actually listening to them and care about what you have to say.
And so this example of some connection.
The next dimension is clarity.
And this is, do we have a shared understanding of success?
Like, do we know what we're both going for here?
And our favorite goat for that one is, what would a successful outcome do for you?
And there's a subtlety because what a success look like for you is a very good powerful phrase.
This one takes it a level deeper because it gets people thinking and articulating their emotions or their motives, right?
Well, what it will do for me is make me look better with front of my boss or what it'll do for me is reduce the stress and that my team is under right now because they're overworked or what it'll do for me is to help us build a better relationship with this client.
Like, those are specific motivations and once you understand what both motivations are, it's easier to hone in on what is the solution there.
So you've got connection and clarity.
And then the next two are curiosity and commitment.
Curiosity. One of our favorite there is what do you suggest we do next?
Or what does this look like from your perspective?
The thing about the curiosity is it's really hard to be furious and curious at the same time.
So, you know, if you can show up in any conflict, really genuinely interested in what other, the other person's perspective and what solutions are potentially possible.
That's really strong. And then the commitment goats are the all about how do you reach a shared agreement?
And so what's one solution we can both agree on or what's one next step we can both agree on?
Or okay, we've come up with the solution.
What I hear by saying is we're going to do this.
Let's schedule a time to talk about this again.
And all those goats are to prevent the groundhog day of conflict.
I think we've all been in that conflict where we have a conversation.
We think we're going to get better.
We all agree to do something.
I see you're laughing. Right.
And then there we are back again in the exact same conflict.
Oh, my goodness. Okay. So Karen, we were at over 1100 episodes of negotiating anything.
And I will say with confidence, I've never heard anything like this.
Yes. Yes. This is incredible.
And that's why you had to write the book.
Because I think a lot of times experts in the field, they're afraid of giving people exactly what to say.
Sometimes they might do it.
Maybe we'll give you one or two types of things that you might say.
But 300 is quite generous.
And I think this is incredible.
Because going back to what you said before, you said, we're not scripting out the entire conversation.
What we're doing is we're saying at pivotal points in the conversation.
Here are some specific tools that have been tested that can work.
And then you can build on that.
And so just recapping for the audience, we have the four dimensions of connection, clarity, curiosity, and commitment.
And I think this, this very clear and easy to understand structure makes it easier for people to actually put it into action.
And you might not have heard this before.
But I think this is an example of practical tools that are likely to stick.
Imagine that. Wow. This is great.
And now, now let's speak to the people who might be tempted to script out a little bit too much.
How do you balance that before and during the conversation?
Yeah. So the first thing is make them your own.
If it doesn't sound like you, if you would use different words, think about just the phrases as the intention.
I mean, we're very deliberate about the words that we use on purpose because what would a successful outcome do for you is different than what a success look like.
So look at the spirit of what's trying to be happened with these phrases.
But then say, what is language that feels natural to me?
And particularly as you get into your conflict emergencies, because dealing with a micromanager, we'll have, there's, I think there's 15 powerful phrases you could potentially use in there.
You're not going to use all 15 powerful phrases.
The idea is like, well, what's happening here?
And so the first powerful phrases in that one are questions to ask yourself, because I always hear this, I mean, you probably have heard this a million times too.
Somebody says, so I'm dealing with a micromanager.
My boss is a terrible micromanager.
And then you go talk to the manager and the manager goes, oh my gosh, I wish it didn't have to micromanage this guy.
Yo, if he would only do what he's supposed to do, I could leave him alone and he's wasting all my time.
So there's two sides to every story.
So sometimes we'll say, before you say you're dealing with a micromanager, let's ask yourself these powerful phrases first.
Is it just you, their micromanaging, or they micromanaging everybody?
Is your performance where it needs to be?
Are you making mistakes?
Right? Because that is those kinds of questions first.
That's sort of the screen.
All right, you'd go through that.
You're like, yeah, no, the dude really is a micromanager.
Okay. So then here's some, you know, powerful phrases you can ask.
And so there it's an idea.
I'm like, and you can go, oh, yeah, that one, that's the one I should use.
And then I think it's how you show up with your body language.
I mean, obviously, if you're reading it, if you've got, you know, if you're reading it, let's start with what we agree on, right?
That's not going to feel natural.
But it's really, here's just a quick example of how I know this can really work.
If you could just pick one or two that are going to make a difference.
I had this guy. So one of the things I do with one of our clients is quarterly, I go in and have a conference room.
People can come and just talk with me and do coaching spontaneously about anything that's going on.
You know, if you've watched had last so coach Sharon, you know, I'm like that psychologist.
So even though I'm not a psychologist, so I get to know it's very interesting time for me because, you know, everybody's complaining about everybody else, right?
So this guy comes racing in and he like, he looks in the door and nobody's there.
And he pulls it open and he goes, shut the door.
He says, Karen, do you, I still have a new book because David, my husband, just sent me an email and the book images in his signature.
Do you have that in your purse?
I need that book right now.
And I said, let's just call him Lou.
His name is not Lou. And it's not books out yet.
But what's going on? He's, ah, this person, I said, happen to know her.
And guess what? You two want exactly the same thing.
You want exactly the same thing.
You are on the same team.
You're both passionate about it.
So I'm like, we needed a clarity, powerful phrase.
What did success look like for each of them?
And they needed a connection one.
And then they need a curiosity one.
So I didn't give him 300 powerful phrases.
I gave him three. And I said, go have this conversation.
I'll be here. I'm here all week.
Right. So he went like two hours later.
The conversation didn't take two hours.
But that's when I saw him again.
And he said, oh my gosh, Karen, I've wasted three months.
My wife is exhausted. I'm not sleeping.
Nobody wants to hear about it at home anymore.
You're right. We want exactly the same thing.
So that's why if you can just, but he needed to have the conversation.
And he wasted three months of his life not having the conversation, cause he didn't have the words.
This is so good. And when we think about the, like the opportunity cost that comes with this, we don't fully appreciate it because we say that avoidance that's within us.
We say, all right, it is safer and more efficient for me to just maybe turtle shell up and deal with it or the fear might pull us away.
And then we figure maybe it goes away.
But the reality is there's so much that we lose because we don't take that step.
And going back to one of the things that you said earlier is that we have these phrases, but I love that you give people the license and permission to make them their own because we can see we use a phrase at this specific time and we understand why it works in the mechanics.
And then we have to figure out as we practice this, how do we make it authentic?
How do we make it natural?
Because that delivery is really important.
Yes. We've all had those salespeople who are lean in.
What can I do to get you in this car today?
It's like, okay, well, that's, I feel gross now.
Right. Right. When people, when it feels like it's a line, it doesn't work.
But it incorporates some natural fluidity and authenticity to it.
It works. I think this is incredibly really, really helpful.
Thank you. Yeah. No, this is great.
Now, let's see, because I know we're coming up on time.
When you think about how people in the workplace utilize these phrases, what are some common mistakes that you see?
The biggest common mistake is if they don't really believe what they're saying.
If you're like, this is a lost cause.
This person's never going to care or they don't even want to care.
Like, I'm showing, I'm pretending to show up curious, but I am completely unwilling to change my mind.
People will see through that.
And I do not have a poker face.
And so, I mean, I can't say things that I don't believe because my face says it all.
Right. And so people will see that.
So, you know, I really care about you and you don't.
They're going to see that.
So, I think that's the biggest, the biggest mistake and making sure that your body language is open.
Right. I'm really curious about what's going on.
Your arms are crossed and you're all tucked in.
That's not a curious, so open.
Have an open body language.
I think that is one of them.
And then I think the other is that what is like looking at a deeper cause, right?
Is there something bigger that's going on?
And sometimes the conflict is about the conflict.
And sometimes the conflict is about something deeper.
And are you having the right conversation along the way?
What is this conversation really about?
And sometimes you can do that just, but simply like, well, let's start with what we agree on.
And then that way you can get a list of what you do agree on.
And then it becomes real clear, what is the conversation that you need to have?
And you're not wasting your time talking about all the other things.
What do we agree on? You know what's funny, Karen?
Because as you say that, it seems obvious, right?
But I think the sign of a brilliant insight is that it seems obvious in hindsight.
Because in my entire career, I've never said it explicitly like that.
I might get to that point after the fact, like down the road after 5, 10, 15 minutes or more, just recapping and then using that to get positive momentum.
But if I could be more or we collectively, everybody listening could be more explicit with that and saying, Hey, let's start with what we agree on.
I think that has a much different and more effective psychological impact because it leads to us starting off with that positive momentum where we're working collaboratively to find those points of agreement.
And then we can move on from there.
That's so good. You know what I think, listeners?
I think we should buy this book.
That's what I think. So Karen, before you go, remind the listeners about the book and how it can get in touch.
Yeah. So thank you so much for this great conversation.
The book is powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict.
What to say next to destress the workday build collaboration and calm difficult customers.
And our website is let's growlators.com.
You can get download one of the things I'm really excited about as we've built a many, many page companion guide with all kinds of exercises, a book group discussion, training activities, all for free.
So if you want to read the book together, it's really easy to do that.
And I'd love to connect a LinkedIn.
I'm Karen with an I, Karen Hurt.
Awesome. Karen, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it. It's been absolutely my pleasure.
Kwame, you have been just a delight.
Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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