This episode with Danielle Laidley has been split into two parts.
Both parts are available now and you're currently listening to Part One.
This episode features a conversation that references gender dysphoria, addiction and suicide attempts.
If these are topics you don't think you can engage with right now, we recommend skipping for the moment.
But please do come back when you feel ready.
My name is Bella and I am the assistant producer on The Imperfects.
I'm the descendant of Russian and English migrants who journeyed to Australia during the second World War.
I grew up on the border of Wurundjeri and East of Marr Country, inspired by their care for the natural world as I explored the land near my home.
Here at The Imperfects, we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation as the traditional owners of the land where our podcast is recorded.
We extend our respects to their elders past and present and acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded.
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
Because you're good at football, you're put on a pedestal.
Whether you're a good bad or indifferent person.
And now walking on the other side of the tracks as a transgender person, proud transgender person, where seen as mentally ill, unstable, predators, the list goes on.
We're all imperfect.
And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
I'm Hugh Van reinberg from The Resilience Project and I'm Ryan Shelton from my mum and I'm Josh from Hugh's mum and this is The Imperfects.
Wow, another big one.
Another big app. Huge app and we will And we'll talk about Danielle in a second because one of my all -time favourite conversations, one that we will never ever forget.
But it is the last time we'll be, today's the last day we will be in this studio.
Are we recording this?
Yeah. Oh it is. This is the last time we are recording in the studio.
Yeah. I didn't even realise that.
Of course. We're moving out.
Yeah. Which we're moving to a different studio.
Yeah. Everyone loves moving.
It's fun. Yeah. Yeah.
What we're moving into will be so good.
But the next few days and week, I'm a little stressed about, lying in bed thinking about it.
The reason we're moving is because, well, two reasons, I guess.
One, because the Resilience Project who we share a building with, you guys are moving here because you've outgrown the space.
And we're gonna tag along in this.
And also, we're kind of outgrowing this space as well.
Yeah, absolutely. And we often say that this studio room that we're shooting in is just about a meter too short on either side and so we've built a studio that is a little bit a meter longer on each side.
It's gonna be so good, finally.
Living the dream. But we started the first episode of this podcast was recorded in this room and they're different in the corner and it's evolved and grown a lot more professional in the way we've approached it with gear and all that kind of stuff.
But I think there's only ever been two episodes that weren't recorded in this room, Gina Chick and Esther Perel.
And Jack Watts. And Jack Watts.
And Georgie Gardner.
Okay, that's less impressive now.
Four. Four is pretty good out of however many.
Nearly 200 episodes in this room.
And I've worked in this specific room for 10 years so I'm gonna be sad.
There is one item that has been quite contentious.
In doing the move there is one thing, Hugh, do you want to explain?
Well, the big question is what do we do with the painting?
Might need more context than that.
Well, there's a dead lizard. Again, more context.
You're actually given the punchline before you get to the setup so.
Well, so we ended a dead lizard. How do we get there?
First episode this season, I brought up the fact that there was something haunting my front room at home our front room, like I was being swooped at night.
I saw a strange thing hanging from a curtain.
Let's call it what it is, the ghost. Yes.
Let's call it not. Josh doesn't believe in things he hasn't seen with his own eyes.
That's not true. I didn't.
I just don't stretch to ghost. I didn't believe it.
I didn't believe in ghosts until I moved into this house.
And ever since I've been, every night I go to bed, I'm so scared of what's going to happen.
And I did sort of talk about this a little bit in the opening episode.
And then we decided to just put it into the Patreon because no one comes here for ghost stories really.
Oh yeah, if you want.
like the long version and incredible version of the ghost story that Hugh tells and we talk about, it's in, yeah, it's on the Patreon.
Um, which is patreon .com forward slash the imperfect.
I think so. Well actually don't ask me.
I have no idea. It's our brand new community, which we absolutely love.
Yeah, and so, um, we, I took the story to Patreon and it's really intense and it's actually quite scary at times.
So I'll, very quickly, um, we were put in touch with a shamanic healer, a guy who had came out to our house and he would find the ghost, talk to it, and tell us that it's no longer welcome, just in the yellow pages.
Yep, that's about a 45 minute story but you can find a Patreon.
But one of the things he said was that bit of artwork has to go he said that is quite confronting, that's quite it gives me chills when I look at it, that could be the portal by which it came.
It didn't say it's the portal but he said that is that is bringing an energy which is encouraging the ghost. He said it's hmm and I sort of thought that's ridiculous, that can't be a thing.
But then everything else, he said it along with it.
Everything made sense.
He knew so much about our lives through what apparently the ghost told him.
And so I thought, right, we'll take this.
I'll put it in the, I'll put in the garage.
It's just, I'm putting the garage for now.
At home. At home. It was on a, not quite a 45 degree angle from the floor to the wall.
A bit less than that, maybe like a 30 degrees or something.
And I was lying on the floor doing meditation in the dark.
And I heard like a bang, like something crash.
And I just assumed it was one of the kids.
And then, but it's five in the morning, so no one is up.
And then I turned the light on after doing the meditation with my eyes and the painting was just like lying flat on the on the ground.
No wind. So it had somehow gone from 45 degrees one side and flipped all the way to the other 45 and to the ground.
That is I mean, investigate no further, Ghost. Yeah, why would you?
so then I thought, okay, I don't want this in a garage with me in the dark while I'm doing meditation.
I'll just take it to work.
Yeah. Great idea. Let's infect everyone else at work.
I brought it in here.
And you, except for Josh, was absolutely horrified.
Resilience Project staff would just get it out of here.
Why did you bring it to work?
I didn't know I was to take it.
Yeah, I love the ear.
And you also told us that it was at work after you'd just spent 45 minutes telling us this horrific ghost story.
Oh yeah, here's the painting.
It's just outside. Yes, so you know if the podcast starts going a bit wrong.
It's because I put the painting there.
So we're moving office.
Yeah. No, it's not why we're moving office.
But in cleaning out we were like, wait, where are we going to put this?
And so the painting's been sitting here.
It's been sitting in storage in the, in the garage at, at work here.
And then the Resilience Project staff told us that we had the biggest infestation of ants we've ever had, the only infestation of ants we've ever had just in that little storage space there.
For the first time?
For the first time.
Since putting the painting in there.
Yes. And because we were moving out, I thought, well, I can just leave it in this building.
I'm going to hang it on the, I'm going to hang it up here just outside the room here.
Yeah, haunt the next people.
Yeah, they'll be fine.
And so I left it there over just one night left it there.
Josh, you came in this morning.
Bridge? Bridge saw it after being very annoyed that the painting was hung outside our door and then came in and very calmly but also quite alarmed.
She's cool under pressure, Bridge said, there's a dead lizard under the painting.
I mean. Get rid of it.
So expensive. I don't want to get rid of it.
You know what's expensive?
Losing your business.
That's expensive. That'd be shit, wouldn't it.
Oh we just wanted to save some money on the we don't want to lose the painting so we um, yeah, both businesses have since failed.
But the painting is still there and yeah.
Okay so what do you think now Huey?
Well Sarah, one of the girls who was in this project said just leave it with me.
She's put it in her car.
I don't know what she's planning on doing with it.
I think she's planning on taking it to the new office and putting it up.
Ah. We are absolutely not having it in that building.
Have you guys ever seen a lizard in this building before?
Never. No. Never. Not that I'd tell you about.
But no, I've never seen a lizard. Why would a lizard be in here?
Like, it's just a gecko.
They're everywhere.
In the city? Yeah, in Melbourne.
Yeah, we haven't been in our house in Preston.
Yeah, you're in the suburbs.
Yeah, and on the day we're moving out, things are getting shuffled, boxes are getting pulled out.
Probably just came out with a box.
You've been here nine years, Josh.
Yeah, but had to die.
Have you seen a gecko in here before?
I haven't seen a gecko.
So, case in point. Anyway, so that's if you want to hear the full story, it's terrifying.
You'll have you go to Patreon and you'll, if I was to do it, I would type in Patreon in a web browser and then I would just download it, I think.
patreon .com slash the imperfects.
I got it. Really awesome trial here, you've been on the internet before.
Suddenly doesn't know how.
Yeah, website works.
Anyway, so we need to get into Danielle Laidley's episode because it's just one of those things that I, as I said just before, I'm just so proud to have had the conversation on the podcast. The reason, I mean, there's so many reasons this conversation is important.
So many for us culturally in Australia right now.
It's a really important chat, but I just, to really sort of, I guess, reiterate that point, I just want to go over a couple of stats that I think are just really confronting, but I think we just have to mention him before we chat to Danielle.
This is around the prevalence of suicidal thoughts and self -harm among LGBTQ plus Australians, and when it comes to the trans community, one in four trans people had thought about suicide in their lifetime, and two in five trans people had self -harm in their lifetime, which to me is just a reflection of the world is just not accepting enough, it's not kind enough, it's not accommodating enough, it's just not accepting enough.
And when you hear someone's story from the heart like we're about to a Danielle, it really helps to build empathy and understanding towards people, whether it's trans or any minority group.
But I think it's just a very important conversation to have for that very reason.
Danielle talks about life as an AFL star, an AFL premiership player, but then also talks about having this other person with her the whole way.
This little Danielle she talks about who was, you can imagine went to all types of things, knowing from the age of five or six that this person Danielle was there and having to hide that for 48 years.
Yeah, a big part of this chat is when she was diagnosed with gender dysphoria, which happened only in 2017.
And it's something that she has had her entire life.
So that was incredible to learn about there as well.
Most of us know what it feels like to have a secret, like a big secret, or a big thing that you can't share, for whatever reason.
But this is like, on another level.
Yep, for a long time.
There's an incredible love story in there with Donna who was actually in the studio when we recorded the episode.
There's the trauma associated with the experience of being outed publicly and in the most shockingly unfair way.
But then there's also this incredible story of resilience in there as well that we think is such an important one, and we really hope you enjoy.
when we come back from the chat we just just a couple of comments on what we learned from Danielle.
This feels like a long time coming in the most exciting way.
Well for us maybe it does.
I'm not sure. Yes I shouldn't speak on Danny's behalf.
But yeah for us it feels like a long time coming, yeah.
Yeah. I've just realized I'm just looking down at my fingers.
Do you remember when we had Jack Steele from the Inspired Unemployed, I wore my cap backwards to really try and just realized I've got my nails painted today, possibly.
You sure do. I think for the first time in my life, I went to a hotel with my daughter on Friday and she bought nail polish and said, can I please paint?
And I said of course, but now I feel like I'm doing it just to try and impress you Danny.
And, well looking at the quality of them.
I'm glad you said Elsie did them and not me.
I think you need to come with me next week and we need to sort them out.
I mean no offence to Elsie.
Sorry if you're listening, Elsie, but.
Well she's only five, but that would be a great pleasure.
I'd love to do that so much. We are joined by Daniel Laidley.
What an incredible honour it is for us to have you here in the studio with us.
Thank you. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you. I firstly just want to say the great job that you all do in letting people tell their stories like we will today with mine.
I've always wondered what a cup of vulnerability would taste like.
So today, hopefully I can get a little taste of that.
God, it's comforting to know that the branding's working.
It's really getting out there, guys.
I have to say, Donna and I listen to a lot of podcasts and she introduced me to The Imperfects quite a while ago.
Donna's your partner.
And yes, and we listen to it regularly.
I haven't called up with a Mick Fanning yet, but Donna has, and she says it's absolutely wonderful.
Yeah, he's a pretty amazing guy, yeah.
It sure is. It's so tempting to jump into the story right now.
And Donna, we won't.
Oh my gosh, what a love story that is.
And she's actually here in the room with us, which is very exciting.
Having just watched your documentary, it kind of felt like two celebrities have just walked in.
I was like, oh my gosh.
The other people from the film.
Yeah, D -grade celebrities.
Well I've just written a little bio for you here which I'd just love to read, just for those people who maybe aren't as familiar with your story.
So, today we have the great privilege of sitting with someone whose story is as heart -breaking as it is inspiring.
Danielle Laidley is a premiership -winning AFL player, a former coach and a fierce competitor.
On the field she was known for her toughness, her leadership and her relentless strife, that off the field she was fighting a battle no one could see, a battle to be herself.
For decades Danielle carried a secret so heavy it shaped every part of her life.
She built a career at the highest level of football whilst living in fear that if the world knew who she truly was, it would all be taken away.
And when her truth was exposed, not on her own terms, but in the most devastating and public way, she faced a storm that would have broken most people.
But instead of letting it destroy her, Danielle found the courage to rebuild.
She chose honesty over fear, authenticity over shame, and in doing so, she has become so much more than a footballer or a coach, she has become a symbol of resilience, of transformation and of the power that comes from finally stepping into who you truly are.
Today she is an author, an advocate and a woman standing fully in her truth and in telling her story, she is giving others the courage to live theirs.
So before we go back to your childhood, which I so want to do, I just would love to ask you how you feel, how you're feeling today in this moment?
Where do we find you in your life right now?
Listening to that, I get a bit of butterflies and a bit of that washing machine stomach because it sort of just fleetingly takes me back to that tumultuous time.
And I used to sit in that a fair bit but now I've sort of worked really hard and have great support around me that I can really be present in my life which is really good.
But that doesn't still stop like we all have, different issues that pop up.
You know at the moment my health isn't that flash.
But life's pretty good I have to say.
Beautiful. Are you comfortable talking about your health situation?
I'm happy to talk about it.
So what's happening now with your health at the moment?
I started getting headaches around about October I think it was last year.
And so I went to the doctors and we have scans and CT scans and MRIs and all that sort of stuff.
And they found a brain tumor in the bottom of my back of my skull on my spinal cord. So it's called a sub -pemdomoma, which is a very rare tumour.
So I can sit here today and to use a quote from my surgeon, it's not going to kill me, But being on my spinal cord, it has to come out.
It's sort of like walking around with a, you know, a stone in your shoe.
Some days it really hurts, and other days it's, it's okay.
Just hearing that and I mean, when there's any sort of tumour, especially around the brain and the head.
It's like, I mean, I get sort of flooded with like, emotions, and it's not me.
It's just like hearing about someone else.
But what about maybe when you first found out what it was or even now what are the emotions that you're feeling?
So when we had the scans and the MRIs, when we went back to the GP, it was as blunt as you have the brain tumour.
His referral off you go and Donna and I went really quiet and for Donna to be quiet you gotta understand.
Something's not normal.
We drove back in the car and we didn't speak for quite a while and at that point in time, we didn't know what sort of brain tumour, like, when you say brain tumour, it like, it's like getting hit over the head with a sledgehammer.
So we've, for about three weeks, you know, we're googling it, you know, what is this thing, blah blah blah blah, and then it wasn't until we went to the surgeon that he allayed all our fears and said, yes, it's benign.
We don't know much about them.
They are very rare.
But I've operated on a lot of these around the world over the last 20 years.
And he was amazing.
we spent nearly an hour in there going through every picture and explaining everything to us.
So we walked out there thinking, well, it is a brain tumour but we're gonna be okay.
So that was a big relief, but it really knocked our socks off.
A couple of weeks of being in the dark.
Yeah, you know and you start to think okay well, what do I need to do to start to wind everything up and that sort of stuff so Yeah that that took its toll so then to hear that was good, but then every now and again I'll think I've got a brain tumour.
Yeah, which is the downside of it, but the upside is A great outside.
It can be fixed and and we can you know get on with with our life Hmm.
Wow. OK. We've gone straight into the deep end, hasn't he?
Yeah, and you know what, to be honest, that's the first time I've publicly said anything about it.
But, you know, like on the weekend I was supposed to be at the Dalesford Chillout Festival doing some work with diverse youth and just couldn't get out of bed.
and you know I think it's probably time you know not to keep it private but to put it out there like I've probably done with the rest of my my life to let people know and understand that you know you can go through these things but with the right care and empathy and team around you you know everything's gonna be okay.
Well you you are a pitcher of resilience so if anyone can get through this.
It is absolutely you and your team.
Well maybe you should have a look from this side.
Yeah sometimes I'm not too sure.
Yeah okay. It's sort of better roses but...
Yeah well let's go back to your childhood and your early identity I guess.
You grew up in Perth, really really good at cricket and footy.
You've done your research. I love cricket and footy so is it?
I was excited to say that.
I love cricket more than footy.
Really? I do. I still do.
Just mad, mad for it.
I've seen a whole lot of photos of you playing footy and cricket at the, it looks like you're probably, I don't know, 6, 7, 8 years old, and I was curious to see those photos to know.
Did anything feel different to you at that point in your life?
Did you feel things weren't as maybe they appeared to the rest of the world?
Yeah, it was like it was like I lived in this bubble with no connection to the world.
And when I say that from like a people -in -relationship perspective, so mum and dad split up really early, myself and my brother were moving from, you know, parent to parent to grandparents.
So I just felt disconnected, I didn't trust anyone, because people were coming and going, you know, out of my life.
And I just didn't really engage with people.
I was a quiet, introverted kid, very intense kid.
And had these feelings from probably five or six years of age at that.
And what were the feelings?
Yeah, like looking in the mirror and not, what I'm seeing is not what I'm feeling.
And having these experiences, you know, like we're talking about nail polish earlier, you know, my mum had an Avon party for all the mature listeners out there that would remember those.
Like other women come round and try on makeup and...
Yes that's right. And the lady sells her wares.
And then, you know, they'll have a freezer and say biscuits with cheese on and cocktail onions and stuff.
Anyway. I was besotted by this woman and she was, had some nail polish and she was using it, showing her wares and it just struck me that I wanted that.
So I ended up stealing it off the table once they we'd finished and done their orders and everything and ran out and painted my nail and it's still hard to explain when you get to this a place that you recognize just from that one slither of nail polish there was a sense of peace and calmness Wow and so that was the first time and And there's thousands of other stories I can tell you through that period.
Can I just, so when, when you took the nail polish and painted your nail, did you, did you know, I mean, obviously, I'm assuming you knew that you weren't supposed to be using it because it was for the adults.
But did you know also that you weren't quote unquote, supposed to be using it because you were not a girl?
Yeah. Well, people didn't see me as the way I felt.
And so I remember when I was in the bathroom and taking that pleasure for a minute or so, and then thought, oh my god, A.
I've stolen the nail polish, B.
Little people like me aren't supposed to be wearing nail polish.
And then I thought, right, I've got to get it off.
But it had dried. And I couldn't get it off.
And then I was petrified of getting found out about stealing this nail polish.
You know, why have you got nail polish on?
So I ran out the back.
Tried to put it under some water.
That didn't work. So I got some sand and rocks and started to take it off and eventually got most of it off.
I ran through the house and out the front of our house.
Um, don't forget, this is the early seventies, big pampas grass for people who know what the pampas grass looks like.
And I've just lobbed the nail polish into the pampas grass never to be seen again.
Um, and then it was like, but it was then like, I remember going in and just putting my hand under, you know, my, um, my leg so no one could see it, you know, anyway, until Everyone sort of left. Yeah, you know, so there's lots of other stories like that.
I remember for my 9th or 10th birthday, I had a party at my Nannan pops.
And again, the younger generation won't know what I'm probably talking about.
But the fashion was for females to wear these clogs, like skulls, they were called.
which were wooden and had a leather strap.
And I wanted them for my birthday.
I suspect they're back in fashion actually.
You know, and I remember wearing them at the party and feeling so cool.
And all my friends didn't judge or anything.
And you know, I still remember, I always had long hair And that was another attachment to, without telling people or people knowing, that that was my connection always to who I really was.
And not just having all these different episodes if you like, of getting back to that space.
So once once I got there it was like I needed to get back there as much as I could.
And then, when I couldn't in my early teenage years, um, it was a lot of depression and anxiety.
And, you know, I actually stopped playing football and cricket.
Which, I used sport as, you know, I had all this stuff going on in my life, family life.
But then I also had what was going on with, with me.
And whenever I walked onto a cricket field or football field, all that would disappear and I'd probably use that cricket early days, but certainly footy right up until you know I left the AFL as something to keep myself balanced, you know, so to speak.
And then going through and peeling back the layers all those times when I was trying to get back to, you know, being me was little Danielle.
So there were times when little Danielle was quiet, content and would go about her business.
And other days, she would be roaring and wanting attention, and, you know, these are the emotions that I'm going through on a daily basis.
What does that do to your sense of, I guess, shame, for one of her better families?
Does that… Yeah. Shame, fear, embarrassment of… I have no idea what this was and why.
What I do know is that I never pushed it away.
I sort of just carried it with me to explore because I knew how it made me feel.
There's no Google back in the 70s and 80s, so you can't find out any information.
And I probably wouldn't have even known what to look for.
One of the first real times that I found something and read it and thought, oh my God, this is me.
I remember stopping into a news agent on the way to training.
I'd just got my licence, and there was a book on the magazine rack and it was covered in plastic.
So that sort of gives you an idea of what sort of magazine it was.
It had this gorgeous woman on the front cover.
And it had transsexual, which was the language back then, transsexual woman.
And I thought, what's that?
The first time you've seen that word. Yeah.
Yeah. Anyway, I got my hands on the magazine, which happened to be, I can't remember exactly whether it was a penthouse or a Playboy.
And I started to read this article about this woman, and her real name was Carolyn Cossey.
She told her story about growing up in the UK, and being a transgender woman, and I'm reading it thinking, Oh my God, this...
this is me. And then as the story went on she had just finished being one of the Bond girls in the latest movie.
And no one knew she was, I'll use the word again, transsexual.
And she was outed by the British media for being transsexual.
And that would come back to haunt me at a later state, many, many years later with what happened to me.
But that was my first real education into what was going on.
Yeah, the first person I've ever met who I truly believe, when they say, they read Playboy for the articles.
That's good, I like that Well the pitches as well.
There are some good pitches.
Clothed, I will say So we've skipped forward in time a little bit to I guess your later teen years where you're drafted to play the West Coast Eagles And I'm fascinated by that because you are entering a world where, I mean, Aussie rules footy in the 80s, the 90s, in my mind is as blocky, masculine, an environment that you could ever see or experience.
And I'm interested to know how you felt, I mean, entering that world, I guess with all the thoughts you're having about, who am I really?
Yeah, it was interesting.
If we go back to when I was talking about with a lot of depression and anxiety and I stopped playing football and cricket, in year 10 I had an outdoor education teacher who had coached Swan Districts in the WAFL.
And he happened to be a state selector for the state school boys in 1982 and he kept badgering me and said you know I want you to come and try I want you to come try out and I was not just not interested and that was sort of a real really big fork in the road for me.
So eventually I went down to the to the tryouts um and then like eight weeks later I'm in the best 25 kids in the is great but what still not knowing what this thing is which we now know as little Danielle and from there you know I played in the carnival played my local team and then the next year I went to West Perth in 1983 and I played 19 games in the Colts under 18 and the next year, just 17, and I'm playing league footy for West Perth in the WIFL, where the crowds were 15, 20, 1000 back then.
And I'm still at school.
So here with the question that you asked about going into this blokey testosterone fueled environment, I never saw it that way.
Maybe I was oblivious to it, for me it was an outlet to also be me and there was another side of me over here.
So I kept them quite separate.
What I will say is I was never a Beers Willing, going to the pub for the boys and going for a punt on the Saturday afternoon, or, it was like footy and then out.
And then what manifests out of that is unsociable, aloof, introverted...
In terms of what people thought of you?
Yeah so this persona continues to grow and grow and grow and that's when the disease of addiction first got hold of me, unbeknownst to me at that time.
Because in the Laidley side, disease of addiction has manifested right back to my great great great grandparents on the male side.
All alcoholics, right down to my dad.
And you know they all died by suicide.
Except for my dad who basically drank himself to death.
So there was this disease of addiction and I had a very addictive personality in regard to little Danielle but also the football world.
So then what happens, going back to that personality that manifests, it started there, you know, in the early 80s and then grew and grew and grew through my time Then going to West Coast and North Melbourne as, you know, this fierce, tough, uncompromising footballer.
The junkyard dog. The junkyard dog.
Is your nickname. Yes.
And like I hated it and I know it was a term of endearment, really.
But to me it wasn't, because it was my brand or reputation that had developed was even further away from the person who I really was.
And I wrestled with it and hated it.
I think I only let one of my teammates call me a junkyard dog, which was Wayne Swass.
And Wayne was going through his own, you know, issues at that time.
But now I'm happy for them to call me the junkyard bitch, so...
Which is a bit of a play on words, obviously.
Yeah, so the disease of addiction manifested in me in a different way.
I became a workaholic.
I just put everything into football and then obviously family, very young and still had this sitting out here, not really knowing what was going on.
So my life became quite compartmentalised.
little Danny else here and you've got this person who plays football, and then you have family.
And then you have friends.
And then you have the AFL.
And I had to be a different person to all of those things.
So it was quite compartmentalised really.
Yeah, for a long time, which which in itself carries a lot of weight.
Did it feel like you're almost like playing characters?
Yes. Yeah. In a sense and at the time I'd never thought about it that, that deeply.
You know, that from a young age.
That was just, that was my life.
You talk about those different segmentations of yourself really, Was there ever a fear or panic or worry that they might meet or blend That was my biggest fear of my life that they would meet.
I can remember at West Perth going to my boot after training with a particular player who I won't mention Opening my boot and there's some more of my stuff And I was like, Ah, that's my girlfriend's or you know.
Yeah, when you say you're stuffing me like Danielle's clothes.
Yeah. Yep. And then the panic in that situation.
And then I remember going to the West Coast Eagles training one day and I went to get my jumper in the property manager goes, why have you got pink lips?
And I've gone on some very quickly made up.
I had a red icy pole.
And so, all those, you know, things like that, where they nearly crossed over.
And there was a lot of that.
I don't know if I'm jumping forward here, but you can't outrun gender dysphoria.
So as I got older the worse, I shouldn't say worse, The louder maybe?
The louder, yeah, to deal with on a daily, on a daily basis.
So it was like, so I'm coaching North Melbourne at the time, and I'm taking off to the US at the end of the season.
And that was Danielle's time.
And in between going to watch NFL games, because I'm a great American football fan.
And then spending time as Danielle, but still living in fear.
I remember being out one night and I heard an Australian voice and it was like just just panic and just get out of there.
But over the years, I grew up enough confidence to start to do it in back home in Australia, particularly Sydney, as it was back then.
less obvious AFL people and going out and spending four or five weekends a year in Sydney as Danielle.
And then it got to the point where I wasn't coaching North at this point in time but I was still in the AFL of going out here in Melbourne.
Now the risk and reward for that is massive.
But the want and the desire to get back to that spot of peaceful self was, I mean sometimes I'd get home and think, right, I'm never doing that again.
And the next day I'm okay, the calendar, when's my next?" Because you get to this point where you're spending time with your self and I'll say, growing my real identity in Danielle and so you want keep getting back there.
And that's, in essence, what gender dysphoria is.
You have a memory of the first time you stepped out as Danielle in Perth.
Yeah. I went to a place called the Subiaco Markets, which is now not there.
And I would have been 17 at the time.
And it was quite a drive from where I lived to the Subiaco Markets.
I had to go through sort of the West Perth area.
And I remember pulling up at the lights, and I looked across at the lights, and there was a director of the Westburg Football Club.
At the lights. Opposite me.
And I'm thinking, he's found out.
He can recognize, he can see me, he can see me.
Um...so then for a lot of years there wasn't many by choice opportunities to do that because of that fear, that shame, that connection that they will cross over.
The way you… certainly back then, and I think unfortunately still today in some circles, but certainly I imagine it would have been prevailing thought that male characteristics are tough and hard and female characteristics are only nurturing and gentle and, for want of a better word, soft. I wondered if you'd ever considered, and I could be completely wrong here, was the way, because you were known as such a tough hard footballer and and how much you had that the nicknames that came along with that.
Was there any sense of the way that you were going about football and attempt to outrun Danielle?
Yeah, certainly, I remember playing for West Perth again.
I actually haven't told this story for a long time.
So, they used to be Sunday sessions in Perth from 4 .30 to 7 .30.
We'd all go to the Parliament, see a band or whatever.
And then we'd go to this place, it was called Fitzgerald's in North Perth.
and it was an amalgamation of all walks of life, because it was the only bar that was open in Perth.
Later on a Sunday? Later on a Sunday night.
Finished at about 11.
And I remember being there with some football players and some transgender girls walked in And I'm like, oh my God, the butterflies, watching them, wanting to meet them, wanting to ask them questions.
But the people that I'm with are just, you know, being nasty.
And so that sort of the shade, the embarrassment, the fear then became very, very, very real.
Because I'm hearing and seeing what these people that I play with, their views on this type of person.
And I've always struggled with this, that, you know, just because we're good at something, I mean, that being AFL football.
I wouldn't say good, reasonable.
It's interesting since since it's all all being public all of a sudden I've become a star of the AFL where really I was just a shit -kicker you know and because you're good at football, you put on a pedestal whether you're a good bad or indifferent person.
And now walking on the other side of the tracks as a transgender person, a proud transgender person, we're seen as mentally ill, unstable, predators, the list goes on.
And again, there's good bad and indifferent in the transgender community as well.
You're either a good person or you're not.
You should be judged for who you are the person you are, not because of what you do, and I think that's really important.
It just, well, it illustrates, like, how important it was to you and how good it obviously felt to be...
to live as yourself, as Danielle.
And, like, I guess for so many people it would be like, oh, I don't know.
What would happen if people found out?
Like, that would be...
But you'd, because you'd read this article about this transgender woman in Playboy.
And was that potential outcome or that fear, was she coming into your thoughts?
Was it a direct line between?
I wouldn't say a direct line.
What I will say is, I always would think and play over and over in my mind, when is this going to to happen.
And for all the hundreds of thousands of scenarios I played out in my mind, the one that actually happened I never thought of.
Even really going back and reading that article after mmm but as soon as it all happened like the article boom, come into my head like you know who would have believed.
And with the gender dysphoria I remember going on internet and doing probably fifty different quizzes about, do you have gender dysphoria?
You know I'd try and find every single one and each one would come out differently.
So it was even more confusing.
But then as I started to get older, the noise and little Danielle was, she wanted to live a life.
She wanted some attention, and it started to affect my mental health, my physical health.
And I, by that stage, I knew exactly what it was.
But just, couldn't tell anyone or not not even, you know, I've had psychs and counselors and mentors of, you know, when you're coaching and playing and, you know, I'll go and see them all and talk about lots of different things, except for the one thing that I knew, that, you know, when I was having a bad time or particularly when I was coaching.
People would gain...
if I go back to my earlier years, and the unsociable aloof, that type of thing, that manifested when I was coaching, but it was more angry, volcanic.
And those were the behaviours that were coming out because of what was happening underneath.
And it was very, very hard to control.
So even through all those years, it was still wrestling what that who am I really you know hmm and then it wasn't until 2015 I thought and and I was I was going down the steep hill at that at that point in time and I'd made plans to leave the AFL and then end up getting fired by Brendan Boulton.
So I really started to emotionally transition, so I was living my life as me except for at my place of employment and in front of my children.
So we haven't we haven't mentioned this yet which I think we probably need to before we jump into the next bit if that's okay but you're You're married from a young age and you have three kids as well and so you are, so Danielle is, I think in your own words you said really had to, I'm paraphrasing here, but really had to, so you keep the family together because you knew that was very important.
It was very hard for you to really be Danielle when you had the family as well and that just had to sort of wait.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing that I thought was because of my upbringing and my parents splitting up and that sort of stuff.
I didn't want to have that happen to my kids.
And it was certainly going to be when they were older, because we had the three of them.
Even though my youngest daughter is, you know, in her mid -20s now.
It was whatever was going to happen with me, and you know, I got all this stuff going on.
It would happen after they've grown up, got through school or uni, or whatever that looked like.
With my then -wife, it got to the point where we went through a few rough stages in our marriage, not particularly about this at all.
Um and then you know I eventually um told her.
So she knew from 25 years ago?
I mean it in the documentary, I think one of the moments that really like kind of illustrated how important it was for you to keep this secret was when your wife found tissue with lipstick in the car and she as you would expect she assumed that it was another woman's and there was an affair going on and instead of instead of telling her no no no there's no affair I didn't cheat and explain what was actually happening you said yeah it is another woman's hmm what was then the the fallout of that?
Like what was the following events?
A lot of work by myself to fix what was the perception of having happened.
Because it's like, I've never heard of a situation where you're lying about having the affair.
Like as opposed to trying to ...
And that caused some grief in the marriage and there's another story where there was a fingernail found on the front path walking in.
It goes to the front door.
And she found it. So it took its toll, let's say.
And that was, that was quite difficult.
And then, you know, this is in Perth, then moving to, to Melbourne, it was, okay, these feelings are getting really strong.
Um, I love the family, you know, I still love my wife at that point in time but I couldn't go on.
Something had to break and I eventually said it or did it or showed it which I won't go into.
And so at that point in time it was seen as fun in the bedroom.
And um... Sorry can you what do you mean by that?
Oh, so me being Danielle, and with my then wife.
Gotcha. But not who you truly are.
No. So it was more of saying, this is who I am, but not going into depth at this point in time.
You seem more like role -playing.
Yep. Yep. It was a way to introduce, I suppose, and it was fun.
And then when it got to a point of telling a bit more of the story, then it became, I don't know about this.
But even the day I got diagnosed, she was the first person that I rang.
Were you together at that point?
No. And you know we said we need to explain this to the kids, even though we were split up, and that meeting never occurred.
And this is my fault, this is a massive burden that I still carry, and we never got to talk about that.
At that point in time, I've been diagnosed.
I'm in active addiction and not being through a workaholic, through substance abuse and self -sabotaging, and so we never got to have that.
So the kids found out basically when it was on the front page of the paper.
Oh, it's, it's you know, go back to the magazine, go back to the thousands of scenarios that, you know, I played, I played out in my mind.
It's the biggest mistake that I've made in my life.
And it's a huge burden to carry.
I still haven't forgiven myself.
Is it, sorry, you're talking about the fact you didn't get to talk to..
okay. Yep. Is there any space to forgive yourself for that when you think about what an incredibly difficult thing that is to actually do?
I'm still working through that.
I probably spent a lot of times putting myself in the issues.
So being there, rock their role model, what I did.
loving, doting parent, that had great relationships with all of them, that's now gone.
And, you know, will I ever get that back?
You know, I'm unsure.
That's ... it's up to them.
I know now I'm a much better -rounded person because of who I you know, but it's still been massive burden for them.
Seen in the paper. The narrative was unkind.
And, you know, they, I imagine, have gone through a grieving process.
I've never...the girls I've never seen they've never seen me.
Still to this day. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, that's we talk about building up strategies and stuff like that.
I've, you know, I still get, you know, a fair amount of depression these days.
And it's mainly due to that, looking back on that time of the mistakes that I made getting caught up in self -sabotaging through, because going back to what I said about the labelling and the disease of addiction, so I always, my values in life were I'm going to change the narrative for our family.
So it was like just social drink, like no drugs, and you know when I left the AFL, when the stressors of the gender dysphoria came through I would stick my head into the football to sort of counteract how I was feeling.
But then once I left and that was gone, the disease of addiction manifested in a different way.
And that was initially through gambling first. um, you know, on sport, got bored.
So I stopped doing that.
And then I turned to drink, and I hated hangovers.
So that got wiped out.
So all this happens is in a pretty quick sort of space of time, because the active addiction was probably 18 months.
And then at 48 years of age, got introduced to cocaine through a partner I was with at the time.
And then And that just went from a Saturday night to a Friday night Saturday night, to a Friday night Saturday night Sunday night, to every night and then the shame and embarrassment of that was just as high as the gender dysphoria.
How all that's manifested, and going back to the kids, that's still my biggest, you know, heartache and I can't get that back.
All I can be is the best person I can be now.
And when they're ready.
And there is some conversation, but it was horrific for our whole family, you know.
And people have heard my story, but don't realize that the other side, the carnage that it's caused.
And I have to take responsibility for that.
I don't think you have to take, I mean, that responsibility isn't solely on you.
I think we're going to get to this.
But the, I understand that you, it's as you said, and I totally get it as a parent myself.
And I got a lot of parenting still to go, two very little kids.
But the idea of feeling in any way responsible for a situation where they're not in my life the way I love them to be.
I understand there's a temptation or I understand why you want to take responsibility, especially given that you were fighting an addiction at the time as well, and so I'm sure your behaviour wasn't what you wanted it to be, but also the nature in which, which I think we should get to, but the nature in the way it was revealed, that's not your fault.
No. And so I can segment what was my responsibility and what things that I didn't have any control over.
So I certainly come to terms with that.
I'm sort of just looking at purely my actions, in self -sabotaging.
You know, and that self -sabotaging did also lead to an attempt to take my life, twice.
And so even that is embarassing.
But all I do know is at that point in time, I was at the lowest point in my life.
I'm thinking, how, how in the hell have I got here in just a very, very short space of time?
And, you know, even, you know, now it is just social drinking, and a desire to use or self -sabotage have since that time never been on the radar again.
So I have to put my hand on my heart and say, yes, I was an addict at that point in time.
Is it a lifelong addiction?
I have the disease of addiction, which obviously manifests in so many different ways, but to go down that path again, I honestly think from the players that I played with and players that I coached, and people in the AFL, the drug part, self -sabotage part there was more a surprise than Danielle.
Really. Yeah. Wow. Yep.
I remember, I think Anthony Stevens said that you were the last person you expected to have issues with alcohol and drugs?
Yeah and invariably other behaviours manifest out of that.
The way that you described work and work addiction it sounds like maybe football or work was your drug for a long time.
And I didn't realise that until obviously over the last five or six years of digging deep into all these mysteries and working out with my with my psych that the disease of addiction got me at 15 or 16 but I didn't know we didn't know and then you know that's what it was and then you build this brand for a football career and little Danielle sitting out on the side and then when that's not there.
The disease of addiction manifests in a different way.
And that's the tricky thing that seems with work addiction is that particularly in elite sports, I mean a lot of jobs, but particularly in elite sports it's like the like obsession or addiction to the sport is applauded and encouraged.
And if you're someone who like you know, eats, sleeps and you know everything football then you are dedicated and anything less is not enough sometimes.
Thank you for listening to part one of our conversation with Danielle Laidley.
Part two is available now.
In part two, Danielle shares how she was publicly outed in the most unkind and unfair way.
She talks about how she worked to reclaim the narrative, how the AFL have responded and what the future looks like for young transgender people today.
And after the interview, myself, Hugh and Ryan talked through what we've learned from Danny's story.
Hugh, it's Ryan. Oh sorry, no, that's not finished yet.
That was only part one.
I'll call you back after part two.
To call back, press 2 2.
To replay message, press 1.
To reply, press 2. The imperfect is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
