This episode of Daniel Laidley has been split into two parts.
Both parts are available now and you're currently listening to part 2.
If you haven't heard part 1 of this conversation, scroll down in your podcast app and you'll see it there.
It's titled Daniel Laidley part 1, Her Private Struggle.
This episode features a conversation that references gender dysphoria, addiction and suicide attempts.
If these are topics you don't think you can engage with right now, we recommend skipping for the moment.
Please do come back when you feel ready.
We've sort of alluded to it, and I hope you don't mind us asking the specifics, but I think for the people listening, it would be helpful to know exactly what this public outing was and how it happened.
Through this bad period, I remember getting introduced to cocaine at 48 years of age, Because I was in a relationship and the drug use was elevating at that point in time.
And I'd been on and off with this person for 5 or 6 years.
And the being off was being unsure of who I was.
The very first date that we went on, I told her.
Cause I thought if I ever get back into a relationship, the other person needs to know.
So I told her. And she was supportive to a point.
It was sort of mid -2018.
I'd just been to America with my youngest daughter.
And I came back and thought, no, I need to break this circuit of what's happening with the gender dysphoria which still at that point, I hadn't sought medical advice or intervention.
And I knew if I was going to explore that, that the relationship couldn't go on.
we split up and then I went that's when I went really badly down downhill back of 2018, 2019 and then I called her, I was reaching out for help was a cry for help and anyway we end up buying a property together she was seeing someone then she told me that she wasn't seeing him anymore and I'm thinking that there's a chance that we might rekindle what would happen, which looking back now with clear eyes, that was never going to be the case.
Anyway, we got into a property dispute through a lot of texting and emails, and so she went to the police, they put an intervention order on me, which I accepted, and then as as she moved into the apartment she told me to get out of her life, she never wanted to see me again and I found out that she was still seeing this other person.
And that's from my point of view and I'm sure she has her point of view.
So I was going that bad that I thought right I'm going there, and I went to the apartment, and Like I was an emotional wreck.
And I rang the police and said, I've got a breaking intervention, what do you need to come and arrest me?
And within two minutes, they came and arrested me.
So around, this was on a Saturday night around the St. Kilda police station.
Um, and I've walked in, I'm handcuffed.
I'm not slept for probably ten days.
Um, I'm at a very low ebb in my life.
Um, walked into St Kilda Police Station, there's probably 12 to 14 police officers, sort of in a semi -circle, plain clothes and uniform, just laughing at me.
And I felt like an animal in the zoo.
So then they were coming in and out and there was a lot of laughing and carrying on.
They had to search me, which they didn't do a very good job, because I had a little satchel in my bra, which I didn't even know was there.
And they didn't search me properly and didn't find it.
So then when I didn't get bail and went to the custody centre, I got searched again properly and then got charged with bringing a substance into a prison, because they didn't do their job.
And so anyway, I got going back to the police station and I'm sitting there, I'm an absolute emotional wreck.
I've rung them as a cry for help.
And what they didn't see was a person in distress.
A person who is at their most vulnerable and one of the lowest points of their life.
And a police officer thought it would be a good idea to take a photo of me getting interviewed, which he did do that.
And while this was happening, They asked me for my phone.
They said, if you give us your phone, give us your PIN, we'll give you your phone back by the end of the night.
If you don't and we have to open the phone ourselves, you probably won't get it back.
I've never been in any trouble with the police at all, in my life.
So I gave them the PIN number.
So while I'm getting interviewed they're going through my phone taking photos of my photos and those photos were of a visual diary of my transition so quite intimate photos so the photo that they took in the interview room and off my phone were distributed on a WhatsApp group, and then within hours yeah, they were on the front page of the paper on Sunday morning.
So we didn't apply for bail, so I got then taken to the custody centre.
And so then you get this profile, police profile, and you get what's called a CRN, which is criminal record number, and you get put up, your profile gets put up onto a leak system.
So any police officer in any station around the state can go into this leak system and have a look at what you're charged with, charged with breaking into a mention order, charged with bringing drugs into a prison, whatever it might have been.
So then, they have taken a photo.
Someone in Victoria has taking a photo of my profile photo in that leap system.
And then that also became public.
That's horrific. So it was, yeah, it was horrific.
And so I'm, I'm still in custody and then I go to the Melbourne Assessment Prison, which I'd worked in for years for the Department of Justice doing their leadership management program, so that was embarrassing for a start.
So then we got given a magistrate who apparently loved media attention.
So my lawyer said, no, you're gonna have to stay in jail.
So I stayed for nine days and I was put into the psych ward at the Melbourne Assessment Prison because I had attempted suicide only two weeks before.
So the records were there.
So I was in this psych ward. And I remember when the door closed just breaking down thinking, this is right now the worst time of my life.
What's happened. So you've got no clothes, no clothes on.
You just have like a smock with some velcro up the top with two pieces of material, because they don't want you to set yourself up.
No pillow. You have a blanket which you can't bend.
No toilet paper. So I, for the first six or seven days, I was slept for 18 hours a day and cried for the other six.
And, I didn't know, but, you know, talking on the phone to my son, He just said dad it's a firestorm out here.
And that was in regards to the media?
Yeah and the narrative was unkind, using the word stalker.
It was a two -way conversation.
But you know I should have been better than that.
And I only could talk about my side of a dispute.
should have been better than that but you know I was unwell at that point in time and then you know about you know being a cross -dresser and cross -dressing is a fetish.
Tender dysphoria is a medical condition.
Two completely different things.
I don't like being labeled that.
So the narrative was really unkind through that period and I couldn't do or say anything and then the police stuff was going on and then there was criminal charges to the police who all got off through that period of time, and then there was the civil case so I couldn't do or say anything and then, so that's why I wrote the book and then the documentary that we made, because I wanted to reclaim my narrative, my story, yep.
It was interesting, it was 50 people or something like that charged with conduct, unbecoming and...
that was another charge I forget what it was anyway...
so some of them got just wraps over the knuckles and then three got charged and And to their lawyers' credit, they played the system out really well and they got a not guilty verdict about sharing the photos and what was private stuff, what was police stuff, and they used case law dating back to the 1890s to get off.
And even the third case just got thrown out because they were going to come up with the same result anyway.
So since then the legislation to do with what's police information, what's private information, the legislation's been changed through my case which I'm pretty pleased about.
And I've now worked with Victoria Police to develop a training package for any new police officers going through the academy.
Well that's good, good idea.
Amazing. Do you mind...this is a bit of a gear shift to something worth talking about before.
Do you mind me asking why you used the word embarrassing when you were talking about suicide attempts?
Embarrassing in a way that I thought that that would not happen to me.
But what I have learnt is that it can happen to anyone and that's the embarrassing part.
And that was initially, not so much now, because I'm far more educated on it.
You know, I have to say, a few times in my life I sort of went there through depression and stuff like that but I always used to wonder what it would be like when you plan, you prepare there and you get to that point, um, how would you feel?
You know and then that, that would scare me and then it was like...back.
All back from that, yeah.
You know? Um, yeah but having been there I thought the world would be better off without me.
And that again, this is through active addiction, this is when gender dysphoria is, and this is just before being diagnosed.
I was only I was seeing my counselor, and I can remember vividly used to go there on a Tuesday night at four o 'clock after work, and they were really worried about me.
And I looked like and felt like death warmed up.
Like, I was just full of drugs.
All this stuff going on, completely locked out the whole world and even my kids at this point in time.
And it just came out and I said, I think I've gender dysphoria.
I think I'm transgender.
And the first thing she said to me was, and this is, this is what care and empathy is about, she said to me, what would you like me to call you?
And, hmm, at this point in time.
And I said, you know what?
Thank you for asking, but I reckon we've got this big pile of shit to work through before we even get, and we both had a laugh but then it was sort of, the weight lifted off and, what a beautiful response, that was the first time I ever told anyone so that was late 2019, yeah.
Oh so you're in your 50's by then, when that happens.
Yep so then it was like okay gender psyches, endocrinologists, tests, you know all this stuff.
And your endocrinologist, Aida I think it is, had this wonderful, I think you went for a half an hour appointment but stayed for four hours.
Yeah it was, again and that was the first one and I was a mess.
The day she told me she said you know, looked at everything, researched, I could see you.
You do have and have always had gender dysphoria.
So because when you go through there, you go through your whole life.
So then when Ada said that, that was just the affirmation that I needed.
Then it was like, okay, you're not crazy, you're not mentally ill.
You've known this your whole life.
Yeah, was it a relief?
Yeah, huge. I remember, you know, walking up the road, skipping and jumping and stuff like that.
But she did say to me, well, what are you going to do?
And I said, well, I can't live like this.
So I want to be here.
But the only way I can be here is if I'm myself.
Because I can't live this life that I'm, that I'm just in a space of a few years just spiralled out of absolute control.
And I'm myself but also those around me.
So this all happened late 2019.
And then, you know, into 2020 was when it all went pear shaped.
I'm interested to know, has people from within the AFL, have some surprised you with their support, and have others disappointed you in their silence?
Um, I can honestly say that everyone has been wonderful.
Absolutely. That's so great.
Like, incredible. Like you live in that fear, shame and embarrassment and then you know when it became public they're the first to arrive on the scene.
Wow, how did that feel?
Oh incredible and I'm talking from Gil McLachlan who was CEO at the time, Brian Walsh, Jay Allen, you know at the AFL, to Steve Hockin who was at the AFL at that point in time, to my own Football Club, the players that I played with and coached has been amazing.
It must have been, I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be carrying this for 35 years when you were saying before how the absolute horror and fear in your mind of those two worlds crossing for it to happen and then be embraced by the AFL community that must just feel that's got to be one of the best feelings of your life.
Yeah it was absolutely and what's interesting now and I've spoken about this with Anthony Stevens and Wayne Swass but why didn't I say you think back then.
In the 90s in North Melbourne it wasn't a time or place to do that.
You survived on sort of attacking your teammates in a fun jovial way.
We just didn't have those conversations, deep conversations back then.
I don't think anyone did.
But as a society and we've come a long way and I think the younger generation today are really leading the way in being authentic, being raw, being themselves, not really caring what people think them as long as you're a good person and I think that's huge and we should water that if you like because what what it's doing is invariably saving people's lives and then you don't have car crashes like Danielle Laidley.
Hmm. Just, I mean, on that, I wonder, do you ever look at young transgender kids who have not only recognised what's going on but have the support to become their true self at a young age?
Is there any like, envy?
Ha, good question. Very good question.
No, if I sit...so I'll answer this in two ways.
The first part is like I sit here today and I always talk about Phase 1 of my life, and now Phase 2, if you like.
Now that I'm sitting here and going through what I've gone through, would I change my life?
No. The only I change is the stuff, the mistakes I made which have affected my children.
And the other part with young, I won't say just transgender people, I'll say gender diverse youth.
You know, there's a lot of people and a lot of fake news about, um, you know, this is a fad, this is whatever, it's been around forever.
And it's now on the table where we can actually talk about it where it's never been before.
If you look at the L, the G and the B in the rainbow community that's been going on for a long time and those people in that movement if you like is so far advanced and I think the T's fallen off the table over the years and now it's back on the table and we're having these conversations.
And what there is now is resources, education, for these young people, you know.
People say, well, and I'll use the gender clinic at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, for instance, or the Minas gender clinic that have been around since I think, the early 70s.
So, and so for a lot of years, the lines in the graph, if you like, from both those two clinics were very flatlined, until probably in the early 90s where it's just gone through the roof.
And people say, oh look, oh look at all these people come out, it's just a fad.
No, people now more secure to come out and talk about it, as adults, or young children are more open to talk about it with their parents and educate their parents.
My concern, and I think this is where I sit, when those lines were just flat lining through the 70's, 80's and perhaps earlier before the spike, so all those people have still been here, but they've just not gone to use these facilities.
They're the biggest worry.
They're people like me, that have had all sorts of issues in life.
So the rhetoric around transgender youth and going to school one gender and coming back to the other, Pokemon police.
Where there's a lot involved.
Parents, the person themselves, GPs, gender psyches, endocrinologists, big team, Supreme Court like it's massive.
You know, and it's not taking lightly, nor should it be.
So there's two, yeah, there's two parts to that.
But I, people say to me about resilience and courage for me, but then I look at these young kids.
And I do have an example of one transgender, I wouldn't say child youth right now.
probably thinking 18, but going back quite a few years ago, left primary school as one gender and came back into high school as another.
And stood up in front of the whole school and said, this is me.
Wow. Now that's courage.
Right? No, like I'm not even the same stratosphere as that you know.
Oh how does it feel to you to know that you're a part like you're a part of that change?
How does that feel?
I remember when all this public stuff came out you know and I'm wrestling to be who I am and dealing with police family whole range of things you know and you have these conversations, well, how are we going to use this?
What are you going to do?" And I was thinking, oh you know I'm a bit naive but I'd really like just to live my life now, you know, and obviously that didn't happen.
And I remember reading this article about a young transgender woman.
Andrea Pellek. So she was the androgynous model from Broadmeadows who got whipped up for by the world.
So she's transitioned, and she went was going through the same thing, saying, I just want to live my life.
And then she got to the age of 28 or something when she thought, no, I need to break down barriers for the next generation.
The things that I went through.
And when I read that I thought yeah that's me.
So I've lived my life as me.
I don't get up on my soapbox and I hope that I'm a part of this by just you know being me.
And being lucky enough to have platforms like these where we can talk about these things and talk about my story and yeah it is a passion to break down as many barriers that I can for the next generation and the following generation.
Because I think I'm in a pretty good space if you like that I've walked on both sides of the tracks and I've got a really good understanding of what minority groups now, you know, go through.
Can I ask you about Donna?
She's sitting here today with us and you met back in primary school when you were in grade one and one of the, there were so many special parts of the documentary, which we'll put a link to in the show notes.
One of my favourite moments was when you reached out to her to tell her about Danielle, basically.
And she said, Yeah, whatever, but I just want to know that you're okay.
Are you fine? I don't really, that's whatever.
That's that's good.
But and then I think she went on to say that, um, she's just always loved you, always for you and all this stuff is irrelevant, she just loves you the person.
That type of love and that partnership and that support, I'd love to hear.
I mean, yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about Donna.
Yeah. The good's bad, but even different.
No... Start with the good.
No, no, no, it's all...
it's all good. I think the thing that got me, apart from a lot of things, was Donald often says, you know, I love this person.
For some people that's hard to comprehend.
And maybe because it's, we did meet in grade 1, we were boyfriend and girlfriend at times through primary school, went at high school.
Our two brothers were best friends going through school.
You know, we, we had this connection there that's been there forever.
And I got married early and kids and so did Donna.
You know, our two worlds were, you it weighs apart.
And then we reconnected, oh no, 2014, 2015 so it wasn't long after I got the villa in Bali and I thought, because my Facebook and socials were very private, and I thought, well I've got this villa.
I've got to rent it out when I'm not there.
So I opened my Facebook and then we reconnected and started there.
And then it started to long late night chat over a long period of time and she come to Melbourne have lunch that sort of stuff and it really when I was going through that bad period of time you know we were talking all the time but then I would just disappear you know for days on days on it no nothing and then it'd be text welfare check and And then I think, OK.
But she knew me, she understood me.
I tried to give some clues and hints.
So I'd always send a little mojis, like high heeled shoes or a dress or a thing like that.
And she just went straight over her head.
I thought she would get it because I don't know if you know this, but Donna was the ducks of our school.
Like she was pretty smart and I thought she might have got it, but she didn't.
Wasn't looking for it.
No. No. And then, you know, she does, does tell another story that apart from our lunches in Melbourne and being on the phone all the time and we organised to meet up in, in Bali.
So this is like two thousand and seventeen, eighteen, I can't quite remember.
anyway, I'm in the, I'm bad, like, I'm really bad.
And when you're like that in Bali, that's also on another level.
In what way? You can easily end up in jail for using drugs in Bali.
And I remember we organised to catch up.
So it's ten o 'clock in the morning.
I walk in with a plastic bag, with probably a dozen Jack Daniels and coke in.
I hadn't slept for maybe a week.
Wow! I'm just sitting on the chair, and like sort of coming in and out of consciousness.
But we really reconnected, and we were supposed to catch up again, but then I disappeared it again and but she was always there there the care the love the empathy I could really tell that we eventually left and I'd drunk all the alcohol and we jumped on my bike which I shouldn't have jumped on and I dropped off the restaurant and she walked into her girlfriend's they were there waiting for and just started crying.
Like, really crying.
Saying, you know, I'm never, I will never ever see that person again.
So the flip side of that is always true.
Because that was the last time she saw phase one.
Yeah so her care and empathy for me and helping me to be the the best person that I can.
I think I bring out the best in Donna as well and we get along like a house on fire.
You know we've worked really hard to carve out a great life for us and hopefully our kids are moving forward. You know, but it's something that we still need to work on every day.
You know, we both have our quirks, and that's what I love about it.
Did your parents ever find anything or see anything, or when you were young, that they questioned, or that you felt panicked about that they had seen?
I've asked Mum this.
Dad passed over 20 years ago and she said no. How's your relationship with your Mum?
How is your Mum with, that's got to be a very confronting and complicated conversation.
Yeah when I was going through that bad stage before it all blew up, Mum and I used to fight on the phone, like because I didn't want to speak to her, didn't want anything to do with her.
Like I did a lot of people.
I kept saying, you know, I've got a lot of stuff going on over here, blah blah blah, she goes well tell me and then we didn't end up yelling and screaming and one of us had hang up and then one night I text her and said okay I'm gonna tell you I've been diagnosed Virginia dysphoria.
If you don't know what it is look it up.
If you still want to talk to me after that I'm here um I sort of waited and waited thinking what's gonna happen.
What a wait. And I think she texts me back maybe six seven hours later and said you know I'm so sorry that you've had to go through this by yourself why didn't you tell me because with my mum I my you know my relationship with my mum was pretty tumultuous, you know, why did she leave my dad, why did she move to Sydney, you know it's because she didn't like myself or my brother, or you know you sort of start to wonder why.
And you know she was very good in you know taking me to footy and giving me what I needed to develop and that sort stuff, but there was just this something there.
And since I received that text, you know, we've spoken about my childhood, all those things.
And now we have this great relationship.
Unfortunately, obviously she's still with us, which is great.
Um, but she has the onset of dementia.
Okay. But she can't remember what happened five seconds ago, but she can remember what happened 50 years ago.
And I have a great relationship with her now.
I just wish there was a lot more down the track.
But unfortunately, we don't, we don't know that.
And even with my my stepfather, I have a relationship now with him, which is just absolutely brilliant.
You know, cause my mum will still revert to Phase 1 name occasionally and my pop, he will say it's not that, it's Danny, Danny, Danny, you know.
Mum will go, oh yeah, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry.
I didn't mean to do that.
And that's why, one of the reasons why we moved back to Perth.
Or Don's dad, and my parents, cause of that age now.
And I've been away long enough and being able to fulfill some dreams. Now I feel it's time to give back to them.
So my relationship with my parents, unfortunately my dad did pass many years ago, is in a good space.
Wonderful. I would just love to hear you speak to anyone out there who's feeling trapped right now, whether it's through identity or addiction or mental health.
if you have anything, what would you love them to hear?
– Hugh, I think what I've learned in this life is we can't do it ourselves.
You need to communicate how you're feeling, to be able to be at your best, and who you want to be in this life.
And I think that's incredibly important and don't be ashamed, don't be embarrassed.
You know, I thought my problems were bad and you get so insular in those, in your own problems. But the person sitting next to you or the person around the corner is probably going through some same stuff.
It's you. You know, we're not...
we're not perfect, we are imperfect.
And that, I think, is also the beauty of the human race, that we come with, with all these things.
So, and you can work on them and you can become a better, rounded person, wherever you come from in life, and whether you come from a broken family or a great family life.
So, you know, I would say find some people you trust, talk about it and work your way through to being the very best person that you can be.
Be authentic. Because I can say from my experience of being authentic, and whatever that looks like you know for me and others, it's so rewarding.
That's a beautiful point to end I think.
I feel like this is one of those conversations that you just put in the category of life -saving.
I think you'll save lives with your honest and very open reflections on your life so thank you so much for joining us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Well thank you to the three of you.
It's as I say like I'm grateful and thankful for it to be able to come on here so please keep doing what you're doing because you know we need this and not just from my from all walks of life and the different stories that you tell it's helping the world be a better place so thank you What a legend.
It's just rare that you meet people like that.
So, yeah, it was just so a really incredible experience to sit down for that long and chat with a woman like that.
Like, incredible. Yeah, how great was the energy of both the DLs?
Oh yeah. Donald Leckie, Danielle's partner.
The two of them, they are good to be around.
Oh, yeah. And Danielle says, they're all about having fun, and you can just imagine the fun they're having.
Yeah, absolutely. They're great.
I actually wanted to mention something which feels a little bit...
There was so much to take away from the app, but there was something that came up for me, and it's been something I've thought about as we've recorded a few stories this year.
As someone who just happened to be born in the body that I identify with as my gender, and to have a sexuality that is, in inverted commas, the norm, or at least the larger majority in Australian Western culture, I feel like, to this point in my life, I hadn't quite really taken the time to think about how terrible an act is outing someone else.
I obviously never do it, and I've obviously always thought that's just a nasty thing to do.
And on its surface without giving it any thought, I think it's inherently obvious that it's a terrible thing to do.
But it used to be such a thing in media where you'd have like salacious sort of it was like getting the scoop that person is gay or whatever it happened to be.
And it was like we've got the story and our chance to leak it and get the headline and it was like that was fair game.
And luckily it's not happening anywhere near as much anymore but I'm sure there are still places that try and do it.
But in any context, even if it's not linking to the media, but just trying to like, spread that story in social circles and that kind of stuff.
It really, hearing Danielle speak, and some other people have spoken to, but in the case of Danielle, hearing the, like the internal trauma that she went through for 48 years, feeling like she couldn't be herself in public and own her story.
to spend your whole life working towards a moment where you can finally do it and then have that taken away from you.
Like your moment of announcing yourself to the world, you've done the work or you're doing the work required to be proud of the person you are and we just heard in incredible detail that how much pain and had gone along that in that journey and how much work Danielle needed to do due to the fact that society was not ready for her I think that's the right way to say it I'm sorry if that didn't come out right for then in her case the members of the police force to take it upon themselves to feel that they could do that but it happens all the time he's just so it's one of the nastiest things I can think
of doing to someone to steal that moment because It absolutely wasn't presented in a way that she would have planned or hoped for.
And it wasn't the full story.
It was a small part of the story.
It was such an unkind version of the story.
And I just think about it being in a psych unit, locked away, knowing that the world is making what they want of a few photos.
It's so true, Josh.
It is the nastiest thing to do to another human being.
Yeah. And it reinforces the power dynamic and the shame dynamic that, in her case, she spent 48 years trying to work through.
And it gets like smashed over the head with it again by other people.
It's just the worst and it's always been inherently just obviously nasty.
But I feel like it's a failure of my empathy to not really think about it properly.
to the point of what you're really doing to the person as well as as well as just being plain nasty.
Yeah, but Jokes on you because you have noticed it and yeah I think that's like that is the exact it's the perfect result really from that conversation That is why it's one of the reasons why it's so good at like having a conversation like that We're just learning we can't We can't know everything, we can't feel everything and know what every perspective is like automatically and yeah to speak to her and, and understand her perspective and hear her story.
That's why we're doing this whole show, isn't it?
And yeah. And it's, it's so true.
It's, it's, it's well beyond a worst nightmare I could ever imagine.
Ryan, so you said at the top of this chat that, at the start of this episode that we all know it's like to have a secret.
And then a secret that people imagining that secret coming out through on someone else's terms, they tell part of the story, not the kindest version of it.
We're not really there to defend it or explain it.
And it cost her the opportunity to sit down with her own kids and tell them who she really is, like in her own words.
Probably one of the most important conversations of her life.
Yeah, it's taken away from her in a way that has made it impossible to get that opportunity back to this point, which is just so devastating.
Well said Josh, it's so true.
It was an honour to meet Danielle and to have my perspective on the world broaden even further.
It's wonderful. Ditto.
Yeah. And thank you, huge thank you to Danielle because it can't be easy doing that.
No. Sitting down and sharing that so generously for us getting us to that point of broadening our perspective.
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's life -changing for so many people.
Yep. Alright, hello, good to see you guys.
Yeah. Like Rose. See you soon.
See you soon. In a new office.
Yeah. In a new studio.
Without a painting.
Without a painting.
Well, without that painting.
Like I always say, no art allowed. Okay?
That is a shelter. I think we've proven that that doesn't work.
Helps no one. Let's just do away with it once and for all.
Finally. Q, it's Ryan.
Wow! What an amazing woman she is.
That was so so great.
And yeah it's it's interesting because I was actually just thinking to myself the other day, I was actually like I was like, you know what?
I actually haven't seen Danielle lately.
Danielle lately? Haven't, yeah.
Yes and also I've been thinking about it, and you know maybe we should actually speak to that joke writer you've been talking about for these voicemails.
I just yeah, I just thought like why not hey?
Yeah, it could be really interesting.
So let me know what you think.
It's Ryan Shelton from the podcast. at theimperfect .com .au.
The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Keilenburg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Keilenburg.
Our executive producer is Bridget Northeast, assistant producer Bella Northeast. This episode is edited by George Martin, with music from No Mono. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're struggling please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
