Today, I present to you Amanda Montel. a writer, a linguist, a fellow podcast host, We're gonna podcast together so hard, it's gonna be scary for all of you at home.
Two podcasters together, now that's dangerous.
So buckle your seatbelt. Amanda has written three books.
One of them is about to come out. It's called The Age of Magical Overthinking.
Obviously, we're all going to be reading it when it comes out, but today I want to zoom in on one of our many common interests.
She wrote a book called Cultish. She wrote an entire book about cults the language used in cults, cult-like behavior.
I'm excited to talk to her about cults as a whole.
But more than anything... discuss how we participate in cult-like behavior on a day-to-day basis. without even realizing it.
And she's really investigated... the line between what is a cult and what is just cult-like behavior, what makes it healthy and what makes it dangerous.
And this is something I... I'm curious to explore because I think it's a little bit more relevant than... we even realize.
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Things people love. What got you interested in cults?
Like when did that become a fascination for you?
The seed was really planted by my dad. My dad spent his teenage years against his will in... a cult called Synanon.
It was an extremely exploitative cult classic 70s cult.
And it was stationed in the Bay Area. when my dad was there in the late 60s and early 70s.
It started out as an alternative drug rehabilitation center.
That grew to accommodate so-called lifestylers or people who were just interested in the countercultural movement of the era.
And my dad's dad was one of those people who was kind of bored of nuclear family life. and wanted in on this experimental lifestyle.
He forced my dad, who was 14 at the time, to move to this compound where children lived separately from their parents in these dismal barracks and people weren't allowed to work or go to school on the outside, although my dad did lay low and hitched a ride into San Francisco every day so he could go to a normal school.
Wow. And yeah, so it was really oppressive.
Everybody wore similar clothes, but The life in Synanon was defined by this one core activity, which was a mandatory nightly... ritual called The Game, which was framed as a form of group therapy, but really it was a means of social control where Everyone was divided into groups.
They would gather in a circle and be subjected to hours of vicious interpersonal criticism.
So they would call some out and say, Emma...
By the way, you can. I'm not a sensitive person.
I can fucking tell. Actually, I am so sensitive, but I can take it.
Oh, my God. I don't know if I would be good at the Synanon game.
I would like to try it. I would be terrible.
Yeah. I'd be like, you're super... You're really gorgeous.
You're really too gorgeous. You're giving...
Hot. Yes. And so sweet. Like, yeah, I don't think either of us would be good at this.
I don't think I would be. Yeah. So that was sort of the centerpiece of life in Synanon.
So my dad escaped as soon as he could at the age of 17, went on to become a research scientist.
My mom's a scientist, too. And I grew up on these stories of Synanon.
And as I came of age, I couldn't help but notice that the techniques of influence that my dad described on the compound. uh showed up in everyday life like my high school theater program and Yes, yes.
And like the startup where I worked in my early 20s and certainly once I moved to L.A., the ways that... everyone would talk about fitness, SoulCycle, wellness, goop, you know, I was like, cultishness is everywhere.
And I studied linguistics in college. Language is my...
It's like the lens through which I'm sorry, Ernest?
Yes. But it's like the lens through which I see the world.
And so... I see cultishness, but more so I hear it.
And so the ways that we speak every day are really reflective of our various degrees of cult-ish influence.
Do you think growing up, around these heavier stories about Synanon was... helpful for you in some ways?
Like, do you feel like it made you more keen about the ways that you can be manipulated?
Like, do you feel like you were... less gullible because you were exposed to that at such a young age?
I would like to think so, you know? Interesting.
Okay, yes. Yeah. Well, when I set out to write Cultish, I...
I kind of felt a little smug about myself as a lot of us do.
You know, we watch cult documentaries and we hear these stories and we think, I'd never fall for a group like that.
Doomsday preppers, you know, the Heaven's Gate types.
How could they ever believe this? you know, poppycock.
Totally. So obviously I'm true or I would like to think I'm not so amenable to this type of group.
But indeed, I was humbled by the research process because I would speak to members of cult-ish groups along this wide spectrum.
And... I saw myself in them. Like, they were not the sort of desperate... intellectually deficient stereotype that tends to be portrayed by...
The media coverage of so many of these cult tragedies, they were, if nothing else... optimistic, extremely so.
I think of myself as a super optimistic person.
They were service oriented. They were really interested in actively finding their life purpose.
They were not interested in mainstream institutions. mainstream health care system, government, traditional religion.
They were sort of countercultural. And these groups tend to flourish during times of broader sociopolitical tumult like now, I really saw myself in a lot of them.
So it's been fascinating to take everything I believed about cults.
Like, Oh, I know, I know what a cult is.
You know it when you see it, you know, a, a, There are so many quotes that sort of reflect that prevailing wisdom, like a cult is a group. where the leader thinks he can talk to God.
A religion is a group where that leader is dead.
You know, there are all these things that put it into perspective of really like The word cult is so subjective.
It's so hard to define actually objectively.
It's so sensationalist. It's so alarmist.
And there's something about them that's not all bad.
That's why they're alluring. That's why people end up in them.
They are aesthetic. They do provide a sense of community and belonging and ritual and meaning, these things that we all want.
And up until a certain point, they're great. about what a cult was, and it was interesting because every result was a little bit different.
I think a misconception... I had about cults was that they're all religious.
Like, they're all... very, very spiritual and there's always a God.
That's what I assumed. That's actually not the definition.
The definition is more about there being a set of rules and a really strong leader and it usually ends badly.
Like that's kind of how I've seen it. Although, what's so wild is that there are plenty of cult-like groups that actually don't have one singular leader with a face.
I mean, QAnon. Who's the leader? Totally.
And that's part of the mystique and that's part of what makes it so insidious.
Yeah. Um, But I feel you because I grew up with these scientist parents.
You know, one of them was a cult survivor.
I was sort of conditioned to think cults must have some element of the metaphysical or the supernatural, but Synanon didn't.
It wasn't a religious group. So the whole experience of writing...
This book and seeing coldishness in everyday society has really... like invited me and I hope others too to look more at our own cultish affiliations and to have more empathy toward people Who it would be so easy to say, like, oh, they're in a cult.
They're brainwashed. Yep. being somebody who has a way with words, you know, What is your definition of a cult in your head?
I wish I had something super succinct, like a soundbite to deliver in every interview.
Genuinely, there is such a continuum of this type of influence.
Whenever I'm talking about these groups, I tend to either get really, really specific with my language.
And if I'm talking about a 90s era millenarian doomsday sect.
That's what I'll say. But that's a mouthful.
Yeah. So... What I will often opt to say instead is a sort of hedge.
I'll say, well, that group is cult-ish, which doesn't necessarily have to be super destructive.
Honestly, the, the bounds separating cult from religion, from culture, from celebrity worship.
A cult leader can be a politician meets business leader meets celebrity.
Like these, boundaries are so blurry. And I think we're all you know, we're all a member of a group like that but we might not all be comfortable describing it as a full-blown cult so We can at the very least say, okay, yeah, the group is cult-ish. sometimes I'll be cheeky about it but like I I go line dancing every week Oh, that's so cute.
Have you heard about the line dancing in L.A.?
No. I feel I don't even like want to shout it out because I. because it's what I call it.
I'm gatekeeping the line dancing. Is it so fun?
We'll offline about it. I need something like that.
Something pure and real. It is. It's pure and real.
That's gorgeous. It's, It's delish. And I mean, listen, it comes with a language, a culture, an aesthetic. rituals and I am all in.
It does have a leader. I would do anything for anything.
That's how I feel about my hot Pilates instructor.
Yep. This guy is like, to me... Like, he is totally... He kind of has a culty following.
Yeah. And I'm totally... buying it and I but I it's so positive for me yeah like I think we're both right now talking about you know, a part of our weekly routines that has a cult-like feeling to it,
But that's actually kind of healthy. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. So maybe let me articulate it this way.
Something could be cult-ish, but net positive when it fulfills our inherent... inherently human cravings for ritual because we have that.
We like to engage and sort of these like traditional practices that signal something important is happening.
They satisfy our cravings for meaning. They give us an identity template.
It's like we're living in the 21st century.
There are... nearly infinite options for directions that our life can go in, or at least the illusion of those infinite options.
We see them online every day. And a cult or a cult-ish group, even a positive one, shows you like, this is what someone in this group does.
This is how they dress. Honestly, I don't buy clothes anymore that I can't wear to line dancing.
I'm obsessed with you and your line dancing.
This is amazing. If there's not Western trim, get out of my face.
No, it's not. It's not being added to cart.
Literally. Like, don't even think about it.
Straight up. Not on the main board. So it gives you that very comforting identity template and it infuses your life with purpose and meaning.
Those things are good. But it's when a group becomes too dogmatic about them, it doesn't make any room for questioning.
It doesn't give you any dignified exit strategy.
That's when it starts to cross the line.
That's an interesting... distinction that I've never thought of prior to now.
Cultish behavior is one thing. Things can be cultish without being a cult.
The line is so blurred, it's unbelievable.
It's unbelievable how blurred the line is. it's hard to navigate when you know, like, We all know cults are bad, right?
Or we think cults are bad. Yeah. We think it, we think culture, but are they not necessarily?
Yeah. We'll see. We'll get into that. But it's, it's, I think it's so... This is why we're all...
None of us are safe because there is no manual to... navigating... None of us are safe.
None of us are safe, okay? Any of us could...
Like fully like we could avoid a behavior that feels cultish because we're like. oh, you know, this is unhealthy.
I shouldn't be doing something like this.
But meanwhile, that's actually a really healthy... human behavior.
Totally. Yeah. It's very hard to navigate.
It's funny that you say that because... I was concerned when I set out to write this book that becoming so high hyper aware of how cultishness manifests in the way that I speak, in the way that others speak. would turn me into, like, a cynical misanthrope, you know?
And... By contrast, it actually made me appreciate our inherent communalism and dreaminess as a species even more.
And it made me want to teeter up closer to that very blurry line.
I talk about it differently and we're talking about it in a way that can seem really paranoid, like nobody's safe.
But genuinely, like, my message is not... necessarily to like defect from any group or behavior that could be considered cultish.
It's more to lean into that critical thinking and to always have that skeptical twinkle in your eye that Suggests that there's always some amount of make-believe here and...
Our identities are more complex than any one given group group. guru or glossary.
So maybe the answer is to become a member of multiple different So, like, diversify your socio-spiritual portfolio, if you will.
But also... The awareness, like I think it comes down to awareness in a way.
You just don't want to lose control. It's when you lose control that things get a little spooky.
You don't want to lose too much control.
And that's the wild thing, right? Yeah. I think part of why people love SoulCycle, and maybe you feel this way.
I was a SoulCycle. Total cult member. Were you?
Absolutely. And I'm still, I'm the workout class cult member.
To a T. I'm always addicted to one or the other.
Funny. Well, actually, like... I mean, I came across studies that the Harvard Divinity School did.
This is a top institution that was you know, finding that people were saying Protestantism is out, church is out, SoulCycle, CrossFit, this is my new religion.
People are saying CrossFit is my religion.
And, you know, when you compare the groups, it's like there is a charismatic leader who has... these incredible oratory stylings.
But speaking of the sort of like losing control, When I'm at line dancing... I love this.
This is like my reference point, but... I'm sure everyone has one that they can think of from their own life, but I do appreciate... a certain feeling of surrender that I feel during that four hour period, four hours,
Listen to me. Sometimes it's even longer.
That's amazing. Okay, I'm loving this. We have to talk about line dancing.
We'll get into it. Next episode's all about line dancing.
I need to know everything. Oh, God. But yeah, but a certain amount of surrender actually feels really good.
But I... I like what this one scholar named Gary Eberle said.
He, he, defined something as ritual time.
There needs to be a period when you engage in these cultish behaviors.
And maybe there's a ritual to signify that that period has begun.
And then there needs to be a ritual to signify that that ritual time has ended, whether it's taking off your cowboy boots or blowing out a candle or taking off your shoes or whatever it is.
The word sacred literally means to set aside.
And so I think that some of these words more transcendent surrendering experiences need to be set aside from our more complex nuanced life in order to protect ourselves Maybe that is the difference between a healthy situation and an unhealthy situation.
When your entire life becomes about this.
Does it follow you off the line dancing floor?
Yes. Does it follow you off? The answer is clearly yes. but also like but can you like is there do you have a life outside of it And I think you do with line dancing.
And I think I do with my hot Pilates class.
You know what I mean? Like, I think... We have...
It's honestly boundaries. Does it come down to boundaries?
Maybe that's it. It's like having... a healthy space where it's like you can surrender in, like, a safe environment.
Yeah. You can surrender and, you know... sort of lose control and let somebody else guide you in a way for a little while.
Knowing that you will be going back to you at some point that day.
So here's the trouble. And there's always like a counter perspective to like everything.
We're like, oh, maybe it's this. Maybe it's that.
Yeah, maybe. But listen to this. So, like, a lot of cultish groups are really... effective at making you feel like this is a safe space and making you feel like there's room to push back.
But actually you and your gut know that there's something amiss, even though they're saying all the right things.
And this is why this book is about cult language, because I genuinely believe that That is a cult leader's most powerful tool because it's invisible, it's seemingly commitment-free, But every clue that this group is maybe too cultish for comfort. can be heard in the way that they use language and the way that they encourage their followers too.
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Mentos gum. Yes to fresh. dig into how cult leaders in general use language to... draw people in?
Like, what does that look like? At its most benign and across the board.
All cultish groups will have a vocabulary of specialized buzzwords that will carry like some amount of emotional charge.
We all have this sort of in-group mentality that can be constructed with language and in certain corporate environments it might. involve using language like we need to get aligned on those holistic organic initiatives you know it's like this sort of it's like what does that in me.
Like it doesn't really mean anything or not anything that can't be said in plain English or maybe truly nothing at all.
But it does signal that you're a part of this in-group.
And when you use it, you... are filled with a sort of a sense of superiority.
It's like I'm on the inside of this group that knows how to use these buzzwords and just using them alone is a signal that I'm in.
And there's an us versus them dichotomy that may or may not be super destructive.
But when it starts to become a little bit more of a red flag You hear techniques like the thought terminating cliche.
This is like my favorite element of cultish language to discuss because once you know what it is, you won't be able to unhear it.
It's a sort of stock expression that's easily memorized, easily repeated and aimed at shutting down independent thinking or questioning.
Every cult leader needs a roster of thought-terminating cliches in their arsenal.
So a thought terminating cliche might sound like something along the lines of, you know, in...
A new age group, well, that's just a limiting belief.
Or in a pyramid scheme environment, they might say, well, if you're not making... you know, the money that you were promised, well, that's a victim mindset.
Yeah. And then you can just repeat victim mindset, victim mindset.
I can't have a victim mindset. I can't have those limiting beliefs.
And thought terminating cliches also show up in our everyday lives in the form of phrases like, well, boys will be boys.
Or it's all in God's plan. Everything happens for a reason.
Mm-hmm. And they're really effective because they put your cognitive dissonance to bed.
When you feel that sickening internal skirmish where you're like, this group that I've invested in for so long, you know, should be great and I want it to be everything it was promised to be.
But actually, I have this intuition that something is hypocritical or something is amiss, a thought terminating cliche can be delivered to you to put that cognitive dissonance right to bed.
And that will allow those in power to remain in power for a little bit longer.
It's eerie how a lot of us, I think, even use that type of terminology because we've you know, heard it from probably somebody who was without even probably realizing it at times.
Trying to sort of control your beliefs in a way.
Yeah. And I think a lot of us have adopted... that mindset to a point where now we're spreading that we're using those tactics thinking that we're doing the right thing, but we're, we're actually adding to something that's really, really unhealthy.
Yeah. So like the most destructive version of a thought terminating cliche might be, I don't know if there are any like tried and true cult girlies watching.
You'll know like Warren Jeffs, the former and now imprisoned abusive leader of the fundamentalist Latter-day Saints, he had this phrase, keep sweet.
He was all about perfection and obedience.
The fundamentalist Mormons were like this... very contained, physically isolated group on the border of Utah and Arizona.
Took many wives. He had like 80 wives. Some of them were underage.
And they were all instructed at every turn to keep sweet. which was this very haunting, spooky, almost like nursery rhyme sounding phrase that meant like, you cannot question me.
You need to abide by our standards of... and subservience and deference.
And if you don't, There will be terrifying consequences.
You could be excommunicated. You could be punished in various ways. but it was all under the guise of this catchy tagline, Keep Sweet.
Ew. Ew is right. Yeah. Can this language ever be used in a way that's Like, I'm not... You think so?
Yeah. No, I think this language... can be positive because there's nothing inherently sinister about feeling a part of something about. rallying around a collective mission.
My best friend works for a nonprofit and I hear cultish language in this nonprofit.
Yeah. Nonprofits can be insidiously culty, but, you know, ultimately, this is a nonprofit that I also. that I support and think that they're doing amazing work.
And it can be hard to, like, drum up the motivation to... continue to fundraise and support a cause where a lot is working against you.
And so to have these sort of like rah-rah phrases, mantras, if you will, that everyone can... lean on for inspiration like I think that can be beautiful there there is something actually like physiologically transcendent that happens when we engage in a group mantra or a group dance.
Like it really bonds us. And that can be a beautiful thing.
But it's when we're in that state of vulnerability that someone... uses that to come in and influence us in an insidious way that it's a double-edged sword.
Do you think that any cult-like behavior is rooted in vulnerability?
Yeah, I would say vulnerability plus seeking, right?
Because like, if you don't have any hope that there is something that can fill that void or that can satisfy that need for belonging and connection, then you're probably not going to seek it out and you're not going to fall into a cult, a good one or a bad one.
So it needs to be like a little bit more active.
Sometimes I joke that like Being super, super skeptical could sure prevent you from the allure of a destructive group, but you'll die alone.
Yeah, totally. Totally. It's like that because the whole point of life is is other people.
Totally. So it's like, you're kind of, you're bound to fall into something.
Yeah. And you can't, Whether it's like bad or good.
Yeah. It's kind of an inevitable thing.
Yeah. If you're doing it right, you know, like... who show me someone who's gone their whole life without joining something cultish and I'll probably see someone pretty lonely, you know?
So lonely. Yeah. Such a good point. Like my dad is so happy and he's a surfer.
He is, listen. No, that is a cult. That's a cult.
That is a full cult. My dad would be the first guy to say, he'd be like, No, 100%.
You kidding me? He's like, he's obsessed.
And he's like, and there is, there's the mantras, there's the, you know, there's the mindset, there's the people, there's the...
There's the word... There's all the different words.
There's the territorialism. There's the, like... you know, there's earning this and earning that.
Totally. It is so, he is going to LOL. when he hears me bringing that up.
Oh, but here it is. It's like we were just joking just now.
We were being like, it's totally a cult.
Oh, my God. Yeah. And I'm like blowharding about how like I only. hedge my language.
But here's the thing too, is that we as conversationalists are so inherently good. at being able to pick up on the intentions and the context and the stakes of whatever we're discussing in a conversation like this. that you kind of can use the word cult In this lighthearted of a capacity.
And we all know that we're not actually talking about the stakes of Heaven's Gate.
I had this sort of epiphany recently about religion, like traditional religion.
It's not the backbone of society that it used to be.
It is especially in the United States. Right.
It, The numbers are going down. A lot of people who even are religious are starting to... branch off and form their own individual spiritual whatever.
And so I love to analyze these things in my free time.
I'm laying in bed and I'm like, What's going to happen with this?
Because for so long, Traditional religion was the backbone of society.
It's how everybody got through challenging times.
It's how... Everyone, you know, decided to structure their lives.
It was So key. Yeah. And we're losing that.
And on top of that, we're in a very... unsettling moment where we're There's just this lack of structure, I think.
And I don't necessarily think that that's... bad because I think that that just means we're evolving and we're, you know...
We're making changes based on our new circumstances.
So we have to do this, right? I have had this hunch that There's going to be this resurgence of the 60s and 70s where there's all these cults.
Because history... mirrors itself sometimes.
It does. And are we going to have a rerun of the 60s and 70s or...
Are we already experiencing the modern cult?
It's just different. And it's just not religious.
I think the latter. Me too. And here's what's interesting.
Yeah, because as tricky as it is to define the word cult, It's actually even trickier, and religious studies scholars have been arguing for even longer about how to define a religion.
Does it need to involve God? Maybe not necessarily.
But you are correct and spot on and a living example of it.
Gen Z women are actually the population who is rejecting religion faster than anyone else.
True for a long time, Pew Research data reflected for a very long time that women were actually more religious than anyone else.
And very recent Pew data has reflected that fully.
I think 49% of Gen Z women identify as religious nuns. not identifying with any religious community whatsoever.
But our desire for... all of these things, you know, connection and something to believe in doesn't go away.
Like we as humans have always been Like lovers of fiction.
We don't know why we're fucking here. Yeah.
We don't know what the point of all of this is.
So we have to make it up. And like... Even if we are obsessed with food. physics and empirical facts, it still doesn't fulfill this sort of emotional, psychological need. to answer the question of why.
Why? How do we spend our time meaningfully?
How do we experience awe? How do we... connect with others most effectively and meaningfully.
It's a confounding existence. That, I think you're right, in a way is only becoming more confounding as we become more globalized. as we at the same time become lonelier and more disconnected, but there's the illusion of connectedness through social media.
We compare despair when we look online. And we've lost touch a little bit with that sense of tight-knit tribalism that... our species was built on.
So yeah, there's a lot going on. But at the same time, our cultishness is going to look different than it did in the 60s and 70s, despite being motivated by similar things. because our culture looks different and the language is going to sound different.
But yeah, in the 60s and 70s, we think of that as a peak cult moment because... you know, we had the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement and the Kennedy assassinations, there were like so many things that caused the average person to lose trust in the church. and in the government and healthcare system like now.
And that's when we saw so many sort of like a cultic movements start, you know, the sort of like Midsommar-esque vibe.
The Mansons and such. And now cults are largely online.
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It's interesting because I'm realizing now, like analyzing the time that we're in, it's very clear that we are in a moment that breeds cult-like behavior.
We are in that moment. But because we are in it, To me, I'm like, but where really is it?
Like at first when I was thinking about this I was like, I don't really... It's not really happening yet.
Because I was imagining... an exact replica of what was happening in the 60s and 70s because...
I guess I don't know any different. It's almost like we don't know... what our cult era of now really is.
Yet. We're too close to it. We're too close to it.
And we're going to find out later. Yeah.
Like, to me... the online forums, because there are so many.
And that's a huge thing that I sort of turn a blind eye to, if that makes sense, because it makes me uncomfortable.
And there's so many. Like, it's on Reddit.
It's everywhere. But it's in corners of the internet that I'm not in.
So I choose to turn a blind eye to that.
Me turning a blind eye to that is completely ignoring what might be our cult of today you're not a discord girly i'm not a my god no That is not my thing.
My cult behavior shows up in other areas.
You're like, I'm a traditionalist. I bow down to my Pilates instructor.
And he is... Well, I mean that man, he has never not spoken truth to me.
I'll tell you that. But anyway. So if he started a discord, you would not be joining.
I would not be joining because that's a little bit too much internet for me.
Yes, understood. You know what I mean? I already know...
In 50 years, when we look back at right now...
We're going to be like, that was the cult era.
Yes. But it's so fascinating to be in it.
We're in it and we're like... Where is it?
What really is it? And we don't feel like it's as big and bad as like when we look back at the 60s and 70s.
I'm just I'm so excited in a sick and twisted way to look back.
Yeah. You know, hindsight is 20-20. I just can't wait to see it.
I also think beyond, you know, online forums and things like that, there's, we have to touch on the cult of public figures.
Do you think that Public figures are unintentional cult leaders.
Because I don't think a lot of public figures go into becoming a public figure.
Yeah. for power and control. A lot of people... there's a creative element.
There's an art element. There's a story that they want to tell and it's about helping society, right?
Ideally. But do you think public figures are coal leaders in a way?
They certainly can be. So you think they can be.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's just so weird when you're, a creative person, your success and how well you're known are so intrinsically linked.
When I think of some of the most insidious cult leaders in our culture today, secular cult leaders. they're not visible.
They're like the politicians and tech CEOs of whose faces we don't recognize.
Yeah. But yes, I think we also live in this very strange world time of personal branding and extreme individualism that creates a scenario where like I am my own cult leader at this point.
It's like... I'm not like a novelist, right?
Like I write nonfiction and I talk about nonfiction in public.
And this person that I'm not to be like totally navel gazing, but for argument's sake, like This person talking to you right now is a version of me.
And yet it's not wholly me. Of course. It's the version of me that's talking about cults, but...
This is the version that people see and want to see.
So I lean into that more. Mm hmm. And so you sort of like disconnect from a sense of self.
And so then you're like following your own personal branding journey. journey you're like chasing that yeah and so in a sense like yeah because of of this culture of extreme individualism and micro-leverities and such.
I sometimes feel like I am... cult following this version of me.
I completely... I've never thought of this before, but it's so true.
You can almost become... your own cult leader as a public figure because you're imprisoned by this identity that you didn't even create because in a weird way, at times it can feel like your audience is your cult leader because they're like, where's that version of you?
Yes. Which is like, By the way, when you're a public figure, you have to have a thick skin.
Yeah, you can't. listen to that but if you do then you kind of fall into this place where like You're stuck.
You feel stuck. It's interesting because it's like fame... in general, gives the illusion that someone is almost godlike.
Yes. When we look at our favorite celebrities, we look at them as almost gods.
Like they're, Deities to us. We sometimes worship them.
We sometimes see them as non-human. Yeah.
It's just interesting that it seems like on both sides, there's a very culty element.
Definitely. For the celebrity, for the public figure and for the audience.
Yeah. Do you think that the celebrity-fan parasocial relationship can ever be healthy because there is a really... culty situation happening.
And as we know now, that can be positive or negative.
Do you think it can be healthy? Because I...
I have like an existential crisis about this all the time because I am a public figure myself.
And I'm like, am I... contributing to something that is actually unhealthy for society?
I don't know. And that's a moral dilemma I face constantly.
You know, this is the very subject that I... also took away from Cultish as the most fascinating and something that I wasn't really, really able to address in that book.
This is something I've been thinking about nonstop.
There is a cognitive bias called the halo effect. that I think is underlying a lot of celebrity worship in addition to all these societal factors.
There's something intrinsic in us that causes us to worship role models that maybe were once our parents or our you know community leaders and now that it's hard to tell who even is in our social circle anymore.
Like, is it celebrities? Is it my coworkers? celebrities, these larger-than-life godlike figures, can become the new subjects of our worship. our new role models and that bias is deep within us and it can be a double-edged sword and very destructive in this time in society because to deify someone is to dehumanize them.
And I think that's why we see such extreme cycles of Celebrity worship and dethronement because the halo effect causes us to think that because we like one thing. in a person because we like their music or we like their fashion sense. then they must be perfect overall.
And when they don't live up to that standard, we punish them.
That halo is doused in ice water. I think communities surrounding certain celebrities can be really beautiful and offer... solace and, you know, again, all those like positive cultish things.
Totally. you know, marginalized communities as well.
It's like female pop stars often serve as like a mouthpiece for queer community and that can be like a really beautiful thing.
But... There is copious research demonstrating that a certain extreme amount of like, deleterious, parasocial, delusional worship has... serious mental health repercussions, including narcissistic tendencies. a propensity for suicidal thoughts, excessive self-focus. severe body image issues.
And so I've been thinking about it a lot because, yeah, certain celebrity communities Celebrity stand dynamics, I should say, are are more extreme now and growing more extreme than I've ever seen before. it's interesting because I'm thinking about it now too.
It's not particularly new to use celebrities as gods almost.
Yeah. I feel like that... I don't know when that started, but I can imagine...
The second that we had the technology to have celebrities.
Yeah. this started. I think so. But I think that's...
Yeah. Like, that's actually somewhat new.
And like, it's only getting... Deeper, for sure.
There's a reporter, a New York Times op-ed writer named Jessica Gross, who wrote a really interesting piece. a few years ago titled something like I'm going to botch it, but it's like, when did celebrities start to matter?
I mean, in modern history, we can look at Beatlemania, right?
That was like... incredibly fanatical religious worship like people thought Paul McCartney was their husband.
And God. God and husband. Yeah. And so that was an era that felt similar, like a predecessor to what we're seeing now.
But what Jessica Gross wrote about was how...
In the Reagan era, that's when we started to perceive celebrities as...
Not just entertainers, but spiritual guides, people we should look to for.
Interesting. politics because Reagan was an actor who then became the president.
Interesting. So it was like, okay, now the lines are really starting to blur.
Celebrities aren't just, you know, famous celebrities singers and actors.
There are people we should look to for moral guidance.
There are people that we should quote unquote worship.
And ever since then, and that coincides, I mean, the Reagan era came on the heels of the cult era of the 60s and 70s. there's a historical cultural path that you can follow and it makes sense.
So it will be interesting in 20 years to see.
Makes sense of this. Yeah, like it's... Because it's...
Oh my God, it's so interesting. And it's really scary because I think if you're someone who... is aware enough to know that we're all capable of all the things that we deem to be bad.
We can all be evil. We can all be gullible.
You know what I mean? Yeah, we can all do things that violate what we think is our like chorus chorus sense of self well you have to like I've seen this so many times written in various places just about how important it is to know that you are no different from other humans. every, like, we're all capable of anything.
Good, bad. So like, don't think that you're different.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Everybody has to keep their eyes peeled, my love.
We all have to keep it. We just have to be like aware of the fact that it...
We could fall into some shit. Yeah. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Especially during a time like right now where...
We're all very vulnerable. And a lot of us are very...
And a lot of us are lacking that. foundation because there's no foundation to just be handed to us right now.
Totally. Like there was in the past. Yeah.
We feel like existentially unmoored. Yeah.
Yeah. So... Yeah. I think, you know, beyond, like, celebrities...
I've noticed that there's a lot of cultiness around Like, skincare.
Plastic surgery. Uh... you know, what else did I write down on my clipboard?
It's workout classes. It's diet culture.
It's There's a cultiness around appearance, too.
Yes. Like, that's a huge... Yeah. section of this.
Yeah, I think, well, obviously, like, social media has exacerbated this.
We're sort of all... expected to present ourselves like celebrities in a way and our standards. for perfection have increased as the technology to attain those standards has increased.
But I actually think that those... phenomena, you know, our obsession with skincare and plastic surgery and such. and working out is still connected to... the religious origin story of the United States because this is fundamentally like a protestant capitalist nation you know and um We have these standards of perfection and obedience and self-improvement. baked into who we are as a society.
And wherever the culture is at any given moment will determine... what the aesthetic looks like.
You know, at a certain time it was, you know, going to church and doing the rituals of Protestantism.
And now the new Protestantism in a way is working out, having a perfect body, having a perfect face. still achieving those deep rooted standards of perfection and obedience and self-improvement and ambition, all these things that define the American dream. but in the aesthetic of the sort of like extremely individualist image centric social media era.
Cults are everywhere. Yeah. There's like cult-like behaviors.
There's cult-like... I just think being aware of it is so healthy because it allows you to to use it in a way that's positive.
Totally. Whether it's not involving yourself in something that's unhealthy.
Mm-hmm. Or it's involving yourself in something that's really communal and special.
Yeah. You know, I think the more aware we are of it, the better we can navigate our own lives and sort of deal with that inevitable piece of being human yeah it's all we can do because again it's like what so we're supposed to avoid anything vaguely culty boring yeah we can't we literally can't we can't we have to go to Pilates and we have to go to line dancing.
It's obvious. And you know what? If we end up going and doing a retreat for three weeks with a group that has kind of like you know seems like they have good intentions and Maybe we do that too.
Yeah. I think my concluding question is Do you think that there's any way a religious cult can be healthy?
And this is an opinion question. This is not, you don't have to know the answers to the universe.
I'm just curious about your perspective. with careful words, a group that has qualities that could be considered cultish, like ritual and us versus them attitudes and such. and also metaphysical and spiritual beliefs. can be healthy as long as there is room for pushback a dignified exit strategy, a way to say, this might not be for me anymore.
Or actually, I would like to keep just one foot out the door.
And there needs to be room for... you to confer with outsiders, right?
Because we consult with our loved ones and our friends and who don't belong to every single group that... we are a part of or don't have a relationship with everyone that we do. to get their perspective.
Yeah. And if... these boxes are checked off like yeah no you you actually have to fully invest in this group and you know, the further you're in, the harder it's going to be to get out and you're, friends and family on the outside don't like it actually come to think of it you don't have any friends and family on the outside yeah Those are some of the characteristics that signal too cultish for comfort.
That's the perfect place to end it. Too cultish for comfort.
Thank you for coming on. It was my honor.
It was phenomenal.
