The 4th Ministerial Meeting of the China Community of London American and Caribbean States Forum has just taken place in Beijing.
Speaking at the opening of the event, Chinese President Xi Jinping urged countries to stand together to promote global peace and stability in the face of unilateralism and protectionism.
He called for expanded cooperation in emerging areas, including clean energy, 5G, digital economy and artificial intelligence.
Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, Chilean President Gabriel Barric and Colombian president Gustavo Pedro were among those in attendance.
Meanwhile, Colombia has formally agreed to join the Belt and Road Initiative.
What is driving the closer ties between China and the Latin America and Caribbean nations?
And what does this mean for the unity of the global South?
For more, we are joined by Cao Ting, Director of Center for Latin American Studies at Fudan University, Pedro Steenhagen, PhD candidate in International Politics at Fudan University and consultant at the China desk of Brazil's Daniel Law, Fernando Munoz, founder of Media Without Means, a platform aimed at combating misinformation by giving local voices a chance to share their stories.
Welcome to you all.
And Perol, I'd like to start with you.
Let's begin with the big picture.
What do you think is fundamentally driving China and Latin America, Caribbean nations closer together?
Thank you, Christ, for your question, it's a pleasure to be here.
First of all, I think it's trade and investment definitely.
I think China has a lot to offer in these areas.
We see that China sees investment in infrastructure, specifically as a major path towards development.
It has modernized itself throughout the last decades, which is quite impressive, in a quite impressive way.
and I believe that Latin American countries see China as a development example coming from a global South nation.
We know that throughout the last century we saw that many developed nations tried to impose in some way a certain model of development while China sees development as something unique to each country, something that each country must find its own way and I I think that's very interesting and very a palliative for developing nations from the global South.
So I think they look at China's example, they look at China's achievements throughout the last especially 40, 50 years.
And I believe one bridge that they see to connect with China is exactly trade and investment.
I think we have a lot of complementarity in our economies.
We have Latin America is one of the the key places where infrastructure has a large gap in terms of investments many governments such as Brazilian one doesn't have, in terms of the public sector, a huge capacity to invest and China can bring in not only the money itself not only the investments through its banks through its companies but also it can also bring the expertise in in terms of infrastructure given it's so, so well -known for this, both domestically and internationally.
So first trade and investments for sure, that's one thing that are helping to connect China and Latin America.
And now more recently, we have seen an increasing interest also in terms of people -to -people exchange in terms of cultural contacts.
We see that many delegations from China have been visiting Brazil and other Latin American countries.
We see that the opposite is also true.
Right now, we had, for example, the visit from Lula with a huge delegation from Brazil, coming from businessmen, from government representatives, from the Congress, from the Senate, from the ministries in Brazil.
So I think these exchanges are also helping to connect China and Latin America.
And finally, I think one key aspect that is also connected of course with trade investment and people -to -people exchange, is not only in the cultural sphere but also in the terms of the technical aspects of these exchanges.
We see that of course K -dramas, music, movies, even games.
We saw that with Black Myth Wukong most recently being released in major gaming platforms. We see that there has been an increasing strength in terms of cultural exports from China towards Latin America, we see that people are increasingly interested in getting to know not only the traditional Chinese culture, but also how China is, has modernized, how China looks today.
And besides this cultural aspect of the exchanges, we also see an increasing cooperation in terms of technical aspects, so academia, inside academia More...
we see more scholars visiting Brazil and Latin America.
We see more scholars from the region visiting China.
We see that there have been a lot of exchanges in terms of health, in terms of space cooperation.
We have been seeing this, particularly in the case of Brazil.
We have been seeing a lot of interactions also in the cultural industry.
So, I think there are many areas that are increasingly connecting China and Latin America.
The relationship has been gaining more and more in terms of complexity.
What began was extremely focused in investments in trade, is now expanding towards new areas and this is very much welcome, I think, by both sides.
Right. Okay. So Professor Cao, to what extent do you think this closeness is a result of the U .S. factor?
Because if you listen to this speech to the foreign president, she said, there are no winners in tariff wars or trade wars.
And he said, bullying or hegemonism only leads to self -isolation, which sounded like a direct message to Washington.
So to to understand is this growing partnership a response to U .S. policies versus a broader shift in how the global South sees its future.
Yes, we know that the U .S. has historically treated Latin America as its backyard, and the relationship between the U .S. and Latin America has been asymmetric.
So we can see that the Chinese government always upholds the five principles of peaceful coexistence without any political strength to trade investment or loans.
So adherence to equality and mutual benefit has earned China the trust of Latin American countries.
And many Latin American leaders increasingly frame China's partnership as a way to diversify their alliances and reduce dependence on the US.
And Latin American countries are playing more and more important role in protecting multilateralism in the world, so China was considered by Latin American countries as a reliable partner in their pursuit of true independence and development.
Yeah, so Phil and I, from the perspective of Latin America and Caribbean nations, what strategic motivations do you think might be fueling this deeper engagement with China?
Well, if you think about it, we are actively witnessing the end of globalization as it has existed for a few decades.
The tariffs that were imposed on the world and obviously Latin American countries are making sure that we need to look at trade in a very different way.
It's important to remember that globalization was great for China, but it was not so good for Latin America.
We basically were assigned and I'm speaking primarily about Colombia as oil exporters and coal exporters, even though we didn't have enough reserves of oil and that was not what we needed.
We actually were not able to develop our manufacturing because we simply did not have the infrastructure to bring whatever we manufactured out to the world.
So we were pegged into this very basic extraction roles.
We were also become very dependent on foreign welfare, basically disguised under the War on Drugs.
All these funds ended up in the pockets of elites that want to perpetuate this dependency of the country.
This is basically what we are dealing with now.
We have a country that is whipping us into compliance, and we have a president that wants to break free from this.
Obviously, having joined the Belt and Road Initiative is going to come at a cost for us, political, economical in terms of trade.
And that is the risk that our president is taking.
But to make a very long story short, we are kind of tired of getting told what to do, what not to do, who to do it, what not to do it with, and who we can trade with and who we cannot trade with very simply.
And we're looking now at other opportunities.
We want our sovereignty to be respected.
Now we are joining the belt on road initiative and I'm reading some communique from the bureau of Western Hemisphere from the US suggesting that all the funds from the BID, – the Banco Interamericano de Sarrojo, the Inter -American Development Bank – should be withheld and should not go to any projects that are run by Chinese government or Chinese entities in the country.
Just when our president, Gustavo Pedro, requested that our illegals were sent back home without being in handcuffs or shackles.
There was a tweet saying that we were going to be removed from the Swift. I mean, there are so many tools that the American government has to bring us into compliance, and this is what we need to break free.
We see the media reports today saying, Oh, finally, President Petro nailed before China.
We've been kneeling before United States for decades.
This is not kneeling before China, this is just finding an alternative way to develop which is our entire right of sovereignty.
We can deal with whoever we want and it is very asphyxiating.
This is why I think we are leaning now towards pacts and agreements and trade and development with the help of China.
This is basically in in my opinion, what is driving us, the fact that the United States is behaving like it's always behaved but exacerbated by the President of the United States and his mentality of breaking the shop and then rewarding himself, saying that he fixed it.
Yeah, well, Pedro, just now, Fernando mentioned sovereignty, which I mean, China has actually emphasized mutual respect for sovereignty and independence in its relations with Latin America.
How do you think this message resonates in a region which is historically viewed as a backyard by Western powers?
It resonates very strongly.
I think that's a key point in which Latin American countries agree with China.
As Fernando has mentioned, we are quite tired as Latin American nations to have to be submissive to certain policies or avoid relating ourselves with certain countries.
We actually want to expand our relations with everyone.
Talking about Brazilian foreign policy, for example, this more universal approach has been a key point in our foreign policy since the 60s, if we strengthen relations with China it does not mean that we will have bad relations with the United States or with Europe.
That's not the point in Brazilian diplomacy for example and I believe it's the case for most of Latin American nations if not all of them.
The point is to have our sovereignty respected so we can relate, we can have relations with whichever country we want, according to our national interests, according to what's best for our development.
And right now, China brings us a lot of benefits for our relations.
China brings a lot of options.
It expands our options, not only of relations, but also of what we can achieve in terms of development, what we can achieve in terms of exchanges.
So this approach towards mutual respect, towards win -win cooperation, towards the notion that each country must find its own development path, towards this idea of respect of sovereignty, of avoiding interference in internal affairs, I think that's very attractive for Latin American nations.
We suffered throughout our history especially in the 20th century for example.
We have seen multiple approaches towards interference in internal affairs in our countries, so we know many ways that this can happen and I think when China talks about this respect for sovereignty, when China brings a new approach towards relations with us which is closer to South -South cooperation that respects ownership, that sees the other, the other country as a partner not necessarily as a country that only receives benefits but a country with which China can indeed exchange.
So both sides can be at the same level.
I think that's very attractive for Latin American countries.
We never liked this idea of being the backyard of no one.
And I think that's a, well that's something that both China and Latin American can agree on.
And that's why, that's one of the reasons why we are coming closer and closer together.
I think we have many approaches in the international stage with which we can agree on.
Be it in terms of having more independence in how we relate with each other.
be it with the aspect of reform of global governance and walking towards a more democratic international society.
We see that China and Latin American countries talk a lot about the democratization of the international system, and I think this also touches upon this aspect of the relations, so I think that's a key point in this message and in these exchanges between China and Latin America.
Yeah, so Professor Cao, as our two Latin American guests mentioned, this region has historically been a backyard of those Western powers.
Its resources and labor have contributed to the development of first Europe and the United States, and it has been described as a region of open veins.
But, I mean, how is China's approach different?
And we know that over 20 LEC countries have now joined the Belt and Road Initiative.
How have these growing ties with China reshaped the development in Latin America and the Caribbean?
China and Latin American countries have actively collaborated across various fields, including politics, economic, economy, culture and technology.
For example, China has been the second largest trading partner of Latin America.
and the largest trading partner of Brazil, Chile and Peru.
And we are going to sign more FTI with more countries in this region.
So many Latin American countries can sell their products to China.
It's a good news for Latin American countries.
And we can see the transportation infrastructure cooperation has also been a very important aspect of this relationship and has created opportunities for the economic development of Latin America.
As we know, physical connectivity can reduce the transaction costs.
So, after the Changkai port became operational, the time from South America goods to reach China was reduced from 35 or 40 days to only 23 days.
And another example is Bell Grano Railway renovation project.
This project was spearheaded by China Machinery Engineering Corporation, and this project has enhanced the efficiency of freight transport in Argentina.
Yes, but Professor Cao, there are some concerns around environmental impact or on equal benefits from these projects.
How are these concerns being addressed?
Yes, actually, most Chinese companies are increasingly emphasizing corporate social responsibility by conducting environmental assessments before project construction and also implementing multiple measures to protect local ecosystems during and after construction.
For example, China Costco Shipping Corporation adhered to the concept of green development when constructing the Chiang Kai port in Peru and the project team focused on marine and wetland ecological protection, striving to integrate green development principles throughout the project phases.
And COSCO has also collaborated with local governments and environmental experts to form a specialized environmental protection team and established an animal rescue office to to ensure ongoing marine and wetland ecological protection.
Okay. Well, Fernando, we know that Colombia has long been one of Washington's closest partners in the region.
What do you think is behind the decision to join the Belt and Road Initiative?
Well, for decades we've had elites and government leaders who have been bought and paid for by USAID.
Now, we have elected a president that is left leaning, that has a narrative of anti -imperialism.
And he wants, with all his character, faults and flaws, he wants to stick it up to the USA, so to speak.
It's basically important to remember that Gustavo Pedro came to Beijing with the intention of signing the BRI in 2023.
Yet he didn't. He was very fresh from taking the role as president and the fear of US retaliation was quite high.
The other thing was, he kept some hopes of being able to negotiate with America, deal with America in a more friendly manner, regardless of his position against the hegemony of the United States.
At that time in 2023, there were a few memorandas of understandings that were signed.
They signed some details about the execution of the metro, the subway in both of which is now 50 % completed, thanks to China.
But it was not seen as an official joining of the BRI in 23.
So here comes 2025.
We see the tariffs that have been imposed by Trump to the world.
We are on pause for 90 days.
Who knows what's going to happen, right?
But basically this is an opportunity for Latin American countries, Colombia included, to denounce a lot of the free trade agreements that Latin America has with the United States.
There are six free trade agreements with 11 countries that they focus mainly on what the United States needed, IP and investment protection.
So if we are going to see these tariffs imposed, China, sorry, Latin America, can easily denounce these ones and seek different agreements with different partners.
and this is one of the things that triggered this need to re -approach and come close to China in terms of our trade.
And the more you look at it for not only Colombia, but the rest of Latin America, we are now faced with a critical choice between two very distinct global visions.
one is an extractive model that is centered in Washington across politics, economics, science, culture, versus a model that is proposed by Beijing, which as we all know, emphasizes basically sheer prosperity and mutual benefit and everything we hear during these meetings of CELAC members and China these days here in China is that we are ready to work with you.
We are ready to help you.
It's the time for us, Latin America and Colombia, to tell China exactly what we need from China.
We need investment.
We need jobs, and we need infrastructure to be competitive.
we need infrastructure to be the partner that China needs us to be.
China wants to buy from us but if we don't have the highways, if we don't have the railways, we don't have the ports to supply what China wants to buy from us in a timely fashion, in an orderly fashion, then we're going nowhere.
So what What we are trying to do right now is catch up with our development, so we can become competitive and enjoy a bit of globalization that we never got to enjoy.
This is why I think Colombia is looking at partnering with China to become a more global partner for the world.
Thank you. We've been talking to FedNanoMunials, founder of Media Without Means, a platform aimed at combating misinformation by giving local voices a chance to share their stories.
Cao Ting, Director of Center for Latin American Studies at Fudan University, Pedro Steindhagen, Ph .D. candidate in international politics at Fudan University, and consultant at the China desk of Brazil's Daniel Law.
And remind our listeners, if you want to hear this episode again or to catch up on previous episodes just download our podcast by searching world today and you can also follow us on x at cjtm radio let's take a short break here coming back will continue our discussion please stay tuned Welcome back.
You're listening to World Today.
I'm Zhao Ying, joined by Cao Qing, director of Center for Latin American Studies at Fudan University, Harold Steenhagen, PhD candidate in international politics at Fudan University and consultant at the China desk of Brazil's Daniel Law.
Fernando Munoz, founder of Media Without Means, a platform aimed at combating misinformation by giving local voices a chance to share their stories.
While President Xi called for cooperation in emerging areas like clean energy, 5G, digital economy, artificial intelligence, How do you think Latin American countries can ensure that these investments align with their own long -term development goals?
I think these are key areas for most of the major economies nowadays.
Latin America is not different, so Latin America has a lot of potential in terms of development, sustainable development, in terms of promoting clean energy.
Brazil, for example, has been a major country in this regard. We have had for many years, uh, almost forty percent or around forty percent of our electricity matrix as a clean one.
Uh, and uh, the whole of Latin America has a lot of, a lot of sustainable potential in this regard. The 5G, uh, we have, we still have a lot of digital exclusion in Latin America.
So I think, uh, in this regard, China can also help to promote more inclusion in the digital world for our populations and our citizens.
In terms of digital economy, I also think we have to address a lot of infrastructure matters so we can deal with a better digital economy.
I see that here in China, we have a lot of services that work perfectly in the digital environment.
We can see sellers in major apps, from all across China, delivering also across the whole country.
In Brazil, this is, and Latin America as a whole, this is something that we see less, and I think it could really help to pump up the smaller and medium sized merchants and companies.
And in terms of artificial intelligence, I think it can be applied on numerous sectors.
For example, I saw that President Xi called on China and Latin America to deepen cooperation in all of these areas.
And I think our AI will be a major emerging field for our cooperation.
It can be applied in many areas such as energy, such as agriculture, and of course, education.
And in this regard, I think it's an important remark that I think that digitalization, AI, 5G, and also, of course, clean energy, they can all help to promote a better education in both China and Latin America.
We can increase our exchanges in this area.
We can help to improve the issue of digital exclusion that we see, especially in Latin America.
We can try to reduce the inequalities in terms of education and in terms of access to digital platforms that we see across regions.
And this is a very complex and difficult reality in Latin America.
I think all of these areas can really be very fruitful for our cooperation between China and Latin America.
and I think this can come not only through public investments but also through private investments for example from companies from China and also companies in Latin America and of course through partnerships between the public and the private sectors that's something we also see happening in Latin America in some regard. I think one of the key aspects also that we should look at is the importance of promoting more and more joint ventures between China and Latin America.
This is an important aspect for, especially for Latin American countries to try to guarantee that the transfer of technology will effectively happen, and that China can not only bring investment from its companies and from its banks, but also help to induce a bottom -up approach to the development of Latin American countries to the development of our societies also in these areas through joint ventures, I think we can learn a lot through these types of interactions.
Yeah, and Pedro, also, we know that historically, Latin American countries exported raw materials, which is kind of at the lower end of the value chain and that is partly why it has contributed to the prosperity of US and Europe, but it had remained in poverty itself.
So do you think that kind of situation is also going to change in the future?
I certainly hope so, and I think all the governments in Latin America also hope so.
I know that there are some critics towards the relations between Latin America and China that China is merely maintaining a type of relationship that happened before between the US and Europe and Latin America, that China buys commodities and also exports higher end products to Latin America, which is somewhat true.
In this regard, we see the trade balances that, for example, Latin American countries still export a lot of commodities and they import a lot of higher -end products now from China.
But although this is true in our panorama now, I think the matter of the approach is very different.
China, I think President Lula even addressed these matters during the China Select Forum now I attended the seminars and the forum in Beijing and he addressed this matter and I agree with him saying that well now it's on us.
China is open to change this trade pattern, China is open to invest more, to promote joint ventures, to help Latin American countries to develop including in terms of technologies so we can change this pattern in the coming future so we can begin to export more higher end products.
President Xi also mentioned this in his speech, that he's open to import more manufactured products from Latin American countries.
So now I think the ball is on our field as Latin American countries, we need to have better industrial policies.
We have to promote better integration among our countries.
We need to strategically invest in infrastructure.
we need to better connect ourselves, we need to promote reindustrialization.
I saw that last year, for example, one of the agreements that China made with Brazil was exactly one agreement that combines a lot of Brazilian initiatives, such as the Programme de Acceleración Cristiméao, the PAC, the Growth Acceleration Programme, the new Industry Brazil, with the Belt and Road Initiative, with an initiative for regional integration in South America.
So I think that the combination of these initiatives, the attention that our governments in Latin America should give to the matter of infrastructure and to the matter of education, to the matter of people -to -people exchanges, all of this will contribute for us to change the scenario of the trade and investment balance.
We also need to rethink, We constantly think what China can offer to Latin America.
So the change in mentality should also take place.
Okay, China can benefit a lot of Latin America, but what can we benefit also China?
What can we bring to the table to try to invest more, to try to make our relations more strategic, to make our relations more productive, and to make our products more available?
Okay, and even in the agribusiness sector, it's always good to remember also of course we want to diversify our trade balance but there there is a lot of technology involved also in the agribusiness it's not commodities per se.
In Brazil we have a lot of studies a lot of technologies that go into the meat that go into the soybeans so we must also So, while we want to change this pattern, while we want to become more technologically advanced, while we want to cooperate more in these fields, it's very important for us to change this historical pattern.
It's also important to note that these agribusiness products are important to help us to move towards this diversification, towards this change in the trade balance.
Well, Professor Tao, China announced a 66 billion yuan, that's 9 .2 billion US dollars credit line for Latin American and Caribbean countries.
How significant is this financing for regional development and where do you expect these funds to be focused?
This kind of financing is very important for the economic development of Latin America Because we know that now some Latin American countries are facing some financial difficulty and are out of fund.
They need funds to improve their infrastructure and promote the economic reforms and also the industrialization.
So with this fund, they can better promote their reform.
And I think this kind of fund maybe focused on some important infrastructure projects bring green and low -carbon projects between China and Latin America, such as solar power projects, wind power projects, and green agriculture.
And also, we know that there is a trans -continental, continental logistic corridor between Brazil and Peru.
And also some AI and 5G projects also have the chance to receive this box.
Yeah. And Professor Tao, compared to the 20 billion U .S. dollars offered at the first SILAC Forum in 2015, does this smaller figure signal a perhaps more cautious approach from China?
Yes, I agree with you because that we know some Latin American countries are facing economic difficulties such as Argentina, Ecuador and Venezuela and at the same time global economic uncertainty has increased.
So China also needs to pay more attention to the stability of the domestic economy and risk prevention and be more cautious in foreign laws.
On the other side, in the past, China's financial cooperation with Latin America countries mainly relied on loans from the China Development Bank and the Export -Import Bank of China.
In recent years, more diverse forms of financial cooperation have emerged, such as joint financing plans with Latin American development banks and loans provided by some major commercial banks in China.
Meanwhile, Chinese companies have increased their direct investment in Latin America and participated in local economic development through greenfield investment and mergers and acquisitions, which helps to reduce their dependence on policy -based bank loans.
And also, Professor Cao, this credit line will be issued in Chinese Yuan.
Is that part of a broader effort to promote the internationalization of Chinese currency?
Yes, I can, I agree with you.
I think this kind of effort can promote the internationalization of Chinese currency.
where other countries obtain renminbi loans, the loans can be directly used to import goods or services from China.
By doing so, these countries can reduce their dependence on third -party currencies, such as the US dollar, and promote the use of renminbi in trade settlement.
And loan funds may be used for local infrastructure, construction, energy development and other projects and construction operation of related projects.
Participants during the operation of these projects participants may need to use renminbi for pricing and settlement, further expanding the circulation scope of renminbi in cross -border investment.
Yeah and Phytan Anal, some frame the China SeaLag Forum as part of China's effort to rival US influence in the region.
What do you think China is ultimately seeking through its credit lines, its infrastructure building and other sorts of economic cooperation?
What are the risks of countries being caught in the so -called great power competition?
This is a great question and I've thought about this for a long time.
The way I like to present it to people is the BRI is kind of like the Poverty Alleviation Project of China, but gone global.
They want to help our countries in the global south to develop, to become competitive, to join the rest of the developed world in this century.
I could go as simply as noting that we in Colombia, in our capital, we need to ration our water.
We don't have enough water.
We have the north of Colombia that has no electricity.
How can we be global players in trade when we have such conditions of infrastructure?
So when China is reaching out to Colombia and Latin American countries, they're really lending a hand and helping us to develop so that we can join the rest of the world and participate in the development of trade and commerce and humanity.
That's basically in my opinion what they need.
Are they going to do it for free?
Why would they? I mean, why would you expect any other entity to do it for free?
Of course there's going to be loans, there's going to be monies that need to be repaid, there's going to be investments, they're going to be joint ventures, they're going to be interests.
But it is notable that the conditions of these loans and credits are always in better terms than with the pre -existing entities, the World Bank and the IMF, the terms are always better.
Now, you asked me also about the risk of joining and accepting this cooperation.
Well, the risk is that America is not going to, and I mean the United States of America is not going to like it, and is not going to allow us to trade with them freely.
We saw, for example, Mr. Caron, the special envoy for Latin America, saying that, oh, Petro coming to China and Colombia joining the Belt and Road initiative is a great opportunity for equatorial flowers and Central American coffee.
These red in the political circles of Colombia, like a direct threat to our free trade agreements, to our trade agreements and to the survival of our coffee growers and flower growers.
This is the kind of risk that is very real and that is presenting a very big dilemma to the current administration because there are forces in the country who are ready to pound on the government if things don't go well.
So it's kind of like a ticking bomb.
We're waiting for America to make us pay the price for what we're doing right now, but from the point of view of somebody like me who understands China and understands what China wants to do, we don't see any other way to get out of this situation.
We need China, we need the investment, we need the infrastructure or else it's going to be more and more decades of Just giving our natural resources to those who pay for it.
Yeah, it looks that the United States still has this Monroe doctrine that sees Latin America as part of its own power sphere.
But, Pedro, let me ask you, because Brazil's President Lula da Silva emphasized that Latin America's fate does not depend on anyone else.
It does not depend on China, the United States, or the European Union.
And he said, It depends solely and simply on whether we want to be great or continue to be small.
Can you help us understand that statement?
Yeah, of course. I think this speech from Lula, specifically this part acts almost like a manifest for Latin America autonomy, also for solidarity among global south nations, maybe specifically towards Latin American nations and also for the building of more equal world, a more democratic world.
I think this part of the speech is in great sync, by the way, with what President Xi and also the president of the new development bank Dilma Rousseff mentioned, as I think all of them made these types of citations that connect with a world that walks towards a better equality, that respects sovereignty, and that promotes more social justice.
Latin America and the Caribbean have suffered throughout history a lot of interventions, a lot of exploitation from great powers and from the developed world, from the West. This idea that depends solely and simply on whether we want to be great or continue to be small is almost a cry for a manifest for our autonomy in Latin America.
I think it's a critic and critical and autonomous view on the role that the region can play in the 21st century.
It's a key idea to try to go against the idea of external domination.
I think it also calls upon these Latin American countries to unite to try to build a shared world and this also connects with the idea of a community with a shared future that President Xi and China try to promote.
I think Lula has this this perception that SALAC is a great forum to discuss key matters regarding integration with China, and that these countries should integrate more and more, should promote better discussions and better debates about its relationship with China, that there is no way for their development if they do it alone, if they do it individually.
So the region's development, of course, nationally speaking, each country can have its own path, can have its own strategy.
But in terms of even the development of the region, which also impacts national development, these regions should act together, should come together to build a better strategy towards development and towards its relationship with China.
I think this statement from Lula also points to the fact that Latin America doesn't want – that's why he mentions United States and the European Union to – I think it points out to the fact that the region doesn't want to be a stage for hegemonical disputes, doesn't want to have to go through some kind of a new Cold War.
He mentioned this in his speech, too.
He wants a more multipolar world, which is something that China also aims to build alongside the global South, and I think Latin America is a major part of this strategy.
No Latin American country wants to have to choose between, for example, the United States, or Europe or China.
We see China as a fantastic partner for our goals, but we also have to pay close attention to the geopolitical risks that we have by having the United States in our continent.
I think this is a statement that we don't want to have to make this choice.
We don't want to have to pay attention to these disputes.
We want to have a stable, a positive relation with the United States as much as we want, but China is seen as a major partner, it's seen as a friend, it's seen as a necessary and an important and a fruitful partner for our development.
So we want to strengthen relationships with China, without having to go through any types of risks or any types of undermining from the United States and from Europe.
So I think this is somewhat what President Lula tried to promote with his idea that we can have a lot of prosperity in the short, medium and long term if we have balanced and symmetrical, more symmetrical relations with the players around the globe and to try to build this common, this shared prosperity, this shared world through inclusion, through mutual benefit, through dialogue.
Yeah, and Fernando, there are also concerns that Chinese lending and investment could create new forms of economic dependency.
So given the region's history with institutions like the IMF, What lessons do you think should be learned to ensure that this financing supports the sustainable growth of the region rather than pushing countries into a new cycle of debt and dependency?
I think that it's very important for us to emulate how a country like China has been able to establish boundaries for the IMF and the World Bank, these actions should give us a way forward so that we know exactly how to get these loans.
We also, unfortunately, have to deal with a very huge problem in Latin America and in Colombia in particular, which is corruption.
The way that China should deal with loans to the country would require great accountability.
This is one of the main issues that we have with our development.
As I mentioned at the beginning of our discussion when the funds reach the country, will they reach only the top level of society and everything else gets lost or we just don't know what happened or wasted.
So, if we want to have transparency, this is what China needs to ask of us as a country.
The economic dependency really depends on what we use these funds for.
If we're going to use them for profitable projects that are allowing us to bring on more income through trade or through development or through joint ventures, then it's worth taking these loans.
If it's going to be wasted in activities that are not necessarily fruitful, and I have to refer once again to one of the main issues that has us depending on welfare, which is the war on drugs.
The war on drugs has been fought for five, six decades.
Nobody has ever thought about fighting a war on addiction.
And this also relates a little bit to China, who's being punished and sanctioned and threatened because of fentanyl.
America is the only country that has that issue.
So what I'm trying to say is there are ways to use the money that we receive from our partners and our friends.
And we need to put that money to work in ways that are more productive than just what we you're told to use it in as is normally the case with loans from IMF and the World Bank.
Yeah, well, Professor Tao, we know that the money from China has no strings attached, which is the key difference from the loans provided by the IMF or other Western financial institutions.
But how is China going to make sure that these loans are being made best use Yes, actually, I quite agree with the professor from Colombia.
Because we have heard a lot about the theory of death trap or theory of Chinese threat in some newspapers, not only from the United States, but also in Latin America.
And also, many US officials talked about China during their visit in Latin America and said this kind of things that Chinese lending and investment could create new forms of economic dependency.
And I think the question is that if we do not invest in Latin America, these countries should also borrow money from other countries.
So the question, I think, is how to use the money to maximize the economic benefit, as a professor from Colombia has said.
And we know that infrastructure projects require substantial financial investments and long construction periods and also slow economic returns.
So this presents both opportunities and risks for the developing countries.
So I think these governments in Latin America should correctly identify infrastructure projects that can address development bottlenecks and make better planification in their programs. And on the other hand, I think Latin American governments need to maintain consistent policy, bridge partisan divides and formulate long -term national development strategies according to their specific conditions.
Because we know that Latin America has many political parties, left and right wings always compete for the presidency of their countries.
So frequent changes in government often lead to policy shifts, undermining investor confidence and long -term planning.
So I think like American countries also need to maintain their consistent policy.
Thank you. We've been talking to Cao Ting, Director of Center for Latin American Studies at Fudan University, Harold Steenhagen, PhD candidate in International Politics at Fudan University and consultant friends at the China desk of Brazil's Daniel Law and Fernando Muñoz, founder of Media Without Means, a platform aimed at combating misinformation by giving local voices a chance to share their stories.
And that's all the time we have for this edition of World Today.
To listen to this episode again or to catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today.
And for further discussion, you can follow us on EXIT's CGTM video.
I'm Zhao Ying. Thank you so much for listening.
See you next time.
