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The protection of workers in new forms of employment, such as food delivery couriers, ride-hailing drivers and online sellers, has been under discussion in China for years.
This group makes up around 20% of the country's workforce.
That's more than 84 million people.
Now we may be seeing a turning point.
China has released a new set of guidelines promising stronger protection for the rights and interests of these workers.
So what will actually change?
How will these measures shape the day-to-day lives of flexible workers and their long-term prospects?
And what could this mean for China's broader labor market?
Hello and welcome to the panel discussion of World Today.
I'm Dou Hongyu in Beijing.
To delve into these questions, we're joined by Suhui Li, professor in organization studies with the University of Kent.
Mike Bastin, China Observer and Senior Lecturer at the University of Southampton, and Chen Jiahe, Chief Investment Officer at Novemar Kia Technologies.
Thank you for joining our program, dear panelists.
Now Chinese people are enjoying their beautiful Labor Day holiday, and I think it's a great time to talk about the welfare, the interests and rights.
I'd like to start with a very, very new job that recently appeared in China.
Let me introduce it to you before we kick off our discussion.
So this new job appeared in Shenzhen, China's southern metropolitan, and we call them building runners.
So what they do is related to food delivery.
They meet delivery drivers at the entrance of the buildings and they take the food from the delivery man right to the customers upstairs.
Before it were the delivery men who do this job.
They stop their motorcycle at the entrance of the building and then they took the food to the customers upstairs.
But the delivery men, they don't know about everything, every building in the city, right?
And some buildings are as complicated as a maze.
But the building runners are familiar with the buildings so it saves the delivery men from getting stuck in elevators and long corridors, so they can move on to the next order faster.
But at the beginning it was quite chaotic because the building runners had to compete to grab orders as the riders arrived.
Then they had to race against the clock to finish deliveries.
And the building runners are usually in their 40s or 50s, so it was very risky and dangerous.
But there was no injury insurance.
Now things have started to change, because local authorities have discovered them and they worked with the delivery platforms.
They signed an agreement that allowed building runners to get orders online.
And now they're also covered by injury insurance.
So let's start by discussing this new job and this story.
So let's start with Professor Bastian, please.
What do you think this new job tells us about the growing demand for gig workers and where the gig economy is heading overall in China?
I think it's a very clear indication that life is changing.
These numbers are increasing.
Obviously, COVID accelerated this a little bit.
The gig economy is becoming more and more dominant, certainly here in the UK and in the West, generally in Western Europe and Northern Europe, not just in China.
So it's a new way of consuming.
It's a new way of living.
So it's something that the Chinese government are now really trying to address and something we need to.
So it's a permanent change that we often overlook.
People are spending more time online.
People are spending more time at home. most definitely working at home is far more acceptable now.
So these building runners are not really a surprise, given China's population density and the need for efficiency and reliability.
So it's something to really start addressing.
And I think we, The Chinese government, are doing that now and other governments around the world are doing that too.
So it's a very, very different lifestyle that people are now really accepting.
And I don't think that's going to change.
And then Jia He.
What do you think the appearance of building runners in southern China reflect the gig economy in China?
Well, that sign tells us that China's economy has been developing.
Therefore, you see the jobs to become more and more specialized.
Previously, we thought, okay, we cook our own food.
I mean, 20 years ago, no one thought you ask a delivery guy to send you food.
And 10 years ago, people say, okay, I'm not cooking.
I'm just buying food from the online platforms and restaurants.
And now you have these workers who do a more specialized job.
They take a special part um, from the work of the delivery of the food.
So this is how an economy is actually working and you have more, you know you have job posts.
That is more and more specialized.
Everyone is just taking a part of the job and the society is becoming more and more sophisticated And this is the time that the government has to jump in.
When you said earlier in the program that they're not having enough social inferences, kind of things,
And that's why we have the government, and that's the job of the government to step in when these new jobs are coming out.
And Professor Lee.
What does this story of building runners reveal about the broader challenges and concerns facing flexible workers today?
I'm not sure this kind of arrangement the last 100 meter relay runners to optimize the delivery time can be applicable in other countries.
But given the current situation of China's youth unemployment, I think it eases the tension a little bit and creates menial but meaningful jobs for temporarily unemployed young people, especially in areas like Shenzhen.
So I think it's a good initiative, but overall I don't think this will be pervasive in the long term because of the quality of job, like last mile or last hundred meter relay uh, it's not really high quality, but i think this is not really the key point of the overall uh legislative uh change or legal change in terms of the protection of geek workers or platform workers in china.
So it's interesting phenomenon and certainly something that companies can think of, But in order to implement this kind of policy or program, I think you need to make arrangements with the buildings or offices and so on.
So there are different conditions of accessibility, and I think it would be more common to pick up deliveries from a pickup point of each building and so on, rather than actually using human relay deliverers to sort out the last mile efficiency as such.
And Professor Li, do you think that the problems and concerns that these building runners are facing, like their risks and their unstable payments before, are ubiquitous for all or most of the gig workers in China?
I think it depends.
I think it varies.
Even in China, the region depends on you know, the number of delivery workers available and so on.
For example, if the job market becomes more mobilized and then if the economy grows better, then less people will be available to work for delivery work.
In the near future.
I think it is quite reasonable to expect that this type of gig work will not shrink, given the capacity for creating jobs in other sectors.
And then Professor Basting.
Professor Li mentioned that the model of building runners may be difficult to be replicated in other areas in China.
Then how do you assess this story, especially the Shenzhen government's response to the problems these workers are facing?
And maybe what lessons can others draw from it?
Well, it remains to be seen.
I think it could be replicated.
I mean, such as China's population density in Shenzhen is not uniquely dense.
You know the density is there and and the difficulty in in reliability and efficiency is going to be there in other, in other cities and not just first cities across china.
So i'm skeptical.
I think it could be a real challenge and i think if demand's there and people really are willing to pay for this surface, these building runners, they value reliability, efficiency.
It's part of the gig economy, it's part of a new lifestyle, then I think it could be replicated.
The Shenzhen government have responded very, very well.
It's very new.
It's something that needs addressing.
It's a very, very different form of employment that needs protection.
They need employment rights.
And that's probably not there at the moment.
But that's the same elsewhere.
So I think it could be something that will grow.
I think this is the new lifestyle that people are living now.
And we have to accept that and the Shenzhen government have done that and they're responding very well, and that response needs to be listen to and learn from across mainland.
So it wouldn't surprise me if this is something that's going to spread across the rest of mainland, certainly first tier cities, coastal provinces and wealthier areas, relatively wealthier areas of China.
And then Jiahe.
What do you think other areas and other regional governments can learn from this story, especially the government's response to this appearance of the new job?
Yeah, that's a very important topic and a very important task for the local governments.
Is that because China's economy is evolving every year?
Every year.
I mean you have this huge amount of labor working.
I mean almost a billion people working here and you have all sorts of jobs coming out.
So it's quite a lot of things invented every year, and especially you have to consider the fact that China's economy is a growing economy.
I mean compared with, like Western Europe, where most things have been settled and you don't see a lot of changes in the economy.
But if you come over to China, you can see the market is changing, the businesses are changing, the jobs are changing, the labor contracts and labor welfare is changing.
You know, you see all these changes every, every month and every year.
So it's actually the job of the government.
It's a very important job for the government to make sure that these jobs are running smoothly that's, the labor is well protected and the welfare of working people is well supplied and the labor law has been obeyed.
It's a huge amount of work.
Because if we ask one local government of a city or even of a province to do everything perfectly, it's actually a bit too much for them.
So it's very important for the local governments to learn from each other, to share the information about the latest developments of the labor market.
It's a very important job for the governments.
And now something very big has happened in the group of gig workers and the overall gig economy, because China has issued this set of guidelines specific for this group of people, to strengthen protection for their rights and interests, including fair wages and stronger social security system.
But Professor Li, let's turn to you.
Some new jobs.
Although we call them new jobs, they have been in China for years, like the food deliverers and ride-hailing drivers.
But why do Chinese authorities introduce this plan now?
I think the overall policy of regulating platforms in China has been to let them play it out first and then, if there are problems arising, then sort out the problems after.
So more lax regulation wars in place.
But now this move, I think, signals that they want to sort out the problems in advance, if you like.
So the decision comes from a very high level in the Chinese Communist Party, the Central Committee.
So this really signals to the whole economy that the Chinese government is going to oversee and supervise the platform practices much more carefully.
And then they are really keen to protect labor rights and working conditions and wages as well in this sector.
In some ways, it's predictable, because The number of workers employed in this sector has been steadily growing and, as I mentioned, it's not going to reduce in the near future.
It really contributes to the labour market significantly.
So there is a need to regulate this sector for labour practice and protect the workers' rights and wages well.
And then, Professor Basting, how would you interpret the timing of the issuing of these guidelines?
I think it's very apposite.
I think the timing is really, as Professor Li said, that the numbers are growing.
We're talking about.
Obviously the population size is such in China the numbers are often increasing quite alarming outside China.
So we're talking about tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of people working in the gig economy.
And these building runners, the numbers, like I said, I think will increase.
So I think the timing is very, very relevant.
And that's something that really needs to be expedited.
These people need protection, employment rights, and that it's a very new form of employment, a new form of lifestyle that people are now experiencing and don't think that that's going to change.
I think it's.
It's a world that we need to embrace and learn how to adapt to.
So I think the timing is it's quite right.
It's very very, very good that um, that this is happening, because people generally work better when there is some form of protection, there's some employment rights.
Obviously, there are incentives, most definitely, but people need to be protected and these people almost certainly have families and probably children, and they need this.
Everybody has that right.
So I think the timing is quite right.
Yeah.
And let's see this.
I suspect other provincial governments, with the support of the central government, will follow suit very soon.
Jia He, let's turn to you.
This document is at a quite high level, as Professor Li mentioned.
It was issued by the CPC Central Committee and the State Council.
And it's the first time a document at this level has specifically targeted workers in these new forms of employment.
And Professor Li said, it means that China, the Chinese government, is doing something seriously about this sector.
What other kind of messages do you think that sends?
Well, i think this kind of new regulations are coming out.
You know, with the development of the economy you, you will gradually see these kinds of new regulations coming out and it tells us that the government is really caring about the labor market, about the private economy, about all these um, new forms of of economy.
Likely internet platform employs millions of people, millions of delivery workers.
You know, these are really new things because China's government has actually been paying a lot of attention to the protection of labor.
I mean, if you look at the labor law and all the related, You know, legal issues relating with it.
It's a huge amount of work.
I mean, if you are opening a company on today, you have to take it really seriously.
Otherwise, it could, you know, if you treat your staff.
And unlike what has been described in the labor law, you get into a lot of trouble.
But the thing is that because the economy has been developing, so the labor law and these kind of regulations set many years ago And when you apply them to the new forms of economy, new forms of businesses and industries, you find problems because sometimes the old regulations are not considering the new types of businesses.
And therefore when you're doing the application of these labor laws, I mean they certainly are principles, but when you talk about the applications, especially when you go to legal issues, when you go to the courts to have some suits, then you need more detailed regulations to make sure that every judgment is convincing.
So this is why we see all these things coming out from time to time.
I believe this is definitely not the last paper.
We will see more in the future.
And then let's take a look at the specific content of the guidelines.
We've mentioned a little like the timely and fair salaries and better social security system, better insurances and enhanced labor protection during extreme weathers.
These are all about the legitimate rights and interests of the gig workers.
Professor Li, if I were a food delivery rider or a ride-hailing driver, how would the new guidelines change my daily work and my life?
I think, although China has been relatively better than many other countries in terms of actually providing the framework for setting up contracts between delivery drivers and the platforms and so on, other countries find it very difficult to regard these workers as employees.
Whereas with this new guidelines, I think it makes it clearer the contractual terms between the delivery workers and the platforms, so their working conditions would certainly improve, because it basically prohibits excessive price competition and coupons and so on and so forth.
Therefore, also the delivery time And the allocation of deliveries and so forth.
So in the end, the working conditions of delivery workers and the fines they used to get will much more improve.
So they will have better condition and a lot of time for delivery in between different deliveries and so on.
So that will improve and clearly they will have medical or injury insurance covered, although it's at the moment a pilot program and definitely it will expand.
So under these guidelines, and even there's some consideration of housing fund provision as well.
So overall, the delivery workers' well-being will improve and they will be, in legal terms, treated as KwaZii employees, although they're not directly employed by platforms.
So the guidelines have specified areas where these rights and the benefits could improve.
So I think there will be significant improvement in terms of their benefits and well being.
Jia He, what do you think?
How will these guidelines change the work and life of individual gig workers?
Well, with all these latest requirements and regulations if I am a gig worker myself, you know I would just feel more protected.
That means that my work is well defined.
I don't have to go to the large labor law and assign that.
Okay, I might be fitting for this sentence because it's not very specifically defined, you know described.
But now we have our own regulation and that means it will be easier for laborers to protect their own rights.
And with this regulation, is actually the businesses, and especially the large platforms that we are talking about today, who employ.
You know, for one platform they can employ millions of people.
They will be more aware about their treatment to the gig workers.
They can't just say okay, I pay you for an hourly wage and I don't have to care about your welfare whatsoever.
But now, if they do that again, they will be breaking the regulations so that they will be more aware about this.
That means that the gig workers don't really have to go into a legal battle by themselves.
As long as the regulation is there, they will be protected.
Especially with the joint efforts of the government, local governments, who have been very effective in many cities, the protection of the rights will be even easier.
Professor Basting, we know that policies often lag behind the appearance of new jobs.
In the story of building workers, the policies came out a few months after the job really appeared.
So how can that gap be narrowed so that workers are effectively protected as new forms of labour appear in the future?
Well obviously, monitoring the developments in technology and the acceleration of change and lifestyles and employment habits and people working from home and the growth of the gig economy, which we all think is inevitable.
So it's trying to predict that.
It's quite difficult.
It's quite understandable that policy does lag behind, because you're never really sure until these jobs emerge and they become what appears to be a key feature of working life.
So I think that's understandable.
But trying to narrow that gap is a very, very important thing.
And predicting the.
The impact of the latest technology.
And let's not forget, these are people's livelihoods.
This isn't an option or extra.
So they deserve protection.
They deserve employment rights.
We have these, this term, zero hours contracts in these countries.
And they really are very, very fragile and don't guarantee anything.
And people deserve that.
And they'll work better.
There's a real strong economic argument here.
So predicting this and narrowing that gap is good for the overall economy.
These people work better if they work in safer conditions.
They have some guaranteed employment.
Uh, they can't just be hired and fired at will.
And again, legislation is is coming in the employment act in the uk soon to to um address that.
So these they have um greater powers in terms of um hiring and firing.
So predicting the race of digital technology, and that's not easy because that can happen very, very quickly.
But certainly narrowing that gap is a good thing.
And again, the Shenzhen government responded very, very well.
And it's all credit to them and the national government.
Okay, thank you all for your in-depth analysis.
Let's have a short break now.
Coming back, we'll continue our discussion.
Hello, my name is Alessandro Golombievski Teixeira.
I'm a professor of public policy management at Tsinghua University in Beijing.
I am a great listener of The Wall Today.
In my opinion, The Wall Today is one of the best China radio programs.
In the world today, we can get the best news and analysis in what is happening now in the world.
So please, come to join us.
Welcome back.
You're listening to the panel discussion of World Today with me, Dou Hongyu.
We've been unraveling China's plans to better protect workers of new forms of employment.
Let's continue our discussion.
China defines the gig work as the kind of work that appeared due to the internet and the digital economy.
So the work of these flexible laborers are not managed by people, but by algorithms.
The guidelines say these workers should have the right to know, to participate in and to make choices about how these algorithms affect them.
So Professor Li, why is it so important to protect these particular rights for them?
Because algorithms continuously seek optimization without considering specific contexts in which these workers are facing.
Say for example, the biggest problem with algorithmic control is the time limit for delivery.
Let's say if you set it for 25 minutes or 20 minutes for each delivery to be completed, right?
Many workers have to go through heavy traffic and you know the librant of the building, you know structure and so on, so they would often fail to complete the delivery on time.
Therefore they would get arbitrary fines from the company and so forth.
So human managers are not necessarily involved.
And then this is all settled within algorithmic control.
And it's very difficult for workers to appeal or protest against this kind of issues and so forth.
So in the very design of the algorithmic rules and the options or choices that workers can have, It is very important that they are consulted and so on on the ground, in real terms.
I think it's better that they understand how the algorithms are designed and how they are updated or changed as time goes, and then how that would affect their actual delivery conditions and their potential fines and wages per delivery.
So in that sense I think specifying More constraints on algorithmic control from the authorities' point of view would enhance the workers' rights better.
And Professor Basting.
We're very curious how can we make sure that the flexible workers will have the right to know, to participate in and to make choices about the algorithms?
What kinds of specific measures should be needed to make sure that these rights are actually enforced?
Well, that's the key thing.
Enforcement.
So legislation is one thing.
Enforcement is another.
And again, we're in a very, very new world.
So we certainly need constant dialogue with local government, national government and employers and people who are running these social media platforms.
And we need input from employers, for example, these building runners and others involved in the gig economy.
So I think dialogue, constant communication, and it's going to evolve.
What we don't want to see is simply legislation that is put out there publicized, but there's no involvement, there's no discussion.
And that's very, very necessary because again, we're in a new world.
So how this actually evolves remains to be seen, but certainly constant dialogue, constant communication, and it needs to be very clear to the employers that there's an economic benefit.
I think that's the key here.
They will gain if they give these workers more protection, more rights, um a better working life than they will perform better and competition will be taking place in terms of reliability efficiency, empathy.
Training these peoples is very people-intensive.
And that's where they will benefit.
So I think enforcement is really key and making it clear to the employers that there's an economic benefit.
Okay, there's a short term cost, but in the long term much, much greater benefit in terms of building their brand.
So constant dialogue, constant communication and publicising the benefits, the economic benefits of this legislation is key.
Constant communications.
And then, Jiahe, what do you think about this?
How can we make sure that the gig workers, their rights can be guaranteed, especially the rights about the algorithms that are closely related to their work?
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, you have regulation and requirements.
That's one thing and you have real applications of these regulations and requirements is another thing.
And sometimes you you know, we have seen in the social management and the legal works is that sometimes you have a complete setting of uh regulations, legislations and requirements uh, but you don't have applications of them, you don't have enforcement of them, so they become just the papers.
So that's a very, very good question that, when china is now having these latest regulations, which is clearly coming out after detailed research and studying of the latest development of labor market, especially the gig worker market, we have to make sure that these requirements are well conducted and well enforced.
So this requires a lot of work.
I mean the effective work of local government as well as the central government, is definitely the most important part.
I mean, if the government bodies and government staff are not enforcing these regulations, then it's definitely not working well.
I mean, nobody will enforce them.
And second is that these regulations shall be widespread to be understood by the public, especially the gig workers.
So they now know that Now we have these requirements.
And if they find something is breaking these requirements and regulations during their work, they can just make complaints to the government immediately.
And also the work of media is very important.
I mean, the media, newspapers, these kind of channels.
TV channels.
When they discover something improper and something is against the latest regulations, they have to step in.
They have to report these things so that people will know what's going on.
And finally, that's also the job of the companies, of these large internet platform companies.
They have to be aware about these latest regulations and we have to enforce them.
So it's actually a joint work of all parts of the society, I would say.
And talking about the platforms Jiahe, what changes do you think that the platform companies need to make following the release of the guidelines?
Well, clearly they have to adjust their algorithm in order to fit better for these new requirements.
They have to increase the welfare of their labor, especially their gig workers, which definitely mean a drawing down of their corporate profits.
And actually in the stock market we have seen many companies' profits start to drop because they are paying more welfare to the workers, especially the good workers.
But this is something definitely necessary for them to do.
I mean we can't put all the profit to the companies and let the laborers be having little amount of protection, be having little welfare.
That's not the reason that we are developing the economy.
I mean, these companies just have to, you know, get into this, you know, get the work done, otherwise they can get fined.
Then, Professor Li, what do you think?
How will the platform companies in China be affected by the release of the new guidelines?
Initially, they will have to embrace these changes and comply with new requirements.
But I don't think that is the key issue.
The key issue is the paradigm shift is taking place now.
We have to see the so-called new economy, not just new forms of employment in a different light.
And, as I mentioned, the top level announcement of these guidelines is the beginning of actually aligning the value of common prosperity with the digital platform economy.
So the large benefits of the digital platform economy was given to the investors and the managers of these platform companies and partly perhaps, the customers, but workers were relatively neglected for a long time.
So I think the company should begin to take more enlightened view of their business and strategy and move beyond the simple strategy of cost reduction and efficiency and maximum profitability on the basis of scientific management.
There are issues that you know, goes beyond this kind of, you know, efficiency and cost reduction.
So, as other panel members mentioned, that you know if you improve their working conditions and they will be more motivated and overall the long-term performance will improve as well.
So somewhat more human relations type approach rather than scientific management approach will be considered and If that happens and if the implementation works very well, as Mike mentioned, this kind of model with adjustment and some modifications can grow bigger and spread throughout China in the near future.
Thank you.
Thank you for that analysis.
We know that gig workers are also in many other parts of the world, and the issue of insufficient protection for them is something many countries are grappling with.
So Jia He.
What do you think are the distinctive features of China's methods in solving these problems?
Well, when we look at China's protection of labor, it's actually more detailed compared with many other economies around the world.
And China has been doing so many detailed investigations about how the gig workers are doing.
So this is actually thanks to the work of many of the local governments.
They have been well, they have been doing quite a lot of detailed work because you know when you are setting these regulations.
You can't just sit in the office and say okay, we are going to do this and that, so you have to go into the market, you have to talk to people and in many cases the, the effectiveness of local government is very important.
For example, I have heard that Shenzhen's local government has recently conducted an action is that if some workers, especially gig workers, are not getting paid from the companies and the companies are delaying the payment, what they can do is that they can sign a paper and transfer this, this right of collecting their money, to the local government, and the local government would just pay them right away.
And this debt is transferred from the gig worker, who is much weaker uh, with all these legal matters and legal issues, to the local governments, who would be much more professional with getting these legal work works done.
So this reduced the cost of the gig workers and many other laborers reduced their cost to get, you know, get caught in the legal issues.
They can just go back to their normal work.
And local government is taking a lot of responsibility in these matters.
So I think this is special about China.
I mean, the effectiveness of local governments is really important in these matters.
And then, Professor Basten, what's your observation, especially comparing China's approach to those of European countries?
Similar.
Obviously there are differences in terms of China and population density and urbanization, but similarities as well.
What we see here in the UK is employment law coming into effect very, very soon, with the current government protecting workers in this area where there wasn't protection.
So we're seeing, For example, unfair dismissal being allowed for workers who have only been employed for six months previously, I think, or currently it's two years.
The guarantee if there's a steady pattern of employment hours, so there's some sort of security there and not really work if there's there, and if there isn't, there's nothing, you don't get paid.
So I think there are similarities, but I think obviously the situation in China is slightly different.
The population densities and the population sizes are different and quite challenging.
And I know there's For a fact, I lived in China for many, many years and lived in Beijing.
And obviously, London is as close as we come here to the sort of cities.
But even London's population is dwarfed by cities like Shenzhen, obviously Guangzhou first cities and new emerging cities um first-year citizens as well.
So i think there are similarities but differences.
But the governments in the uk and the europe on the european level are responding quite quickly, i think.
One point just to make here as well the social media platforms have perhaps had it too easy for too long and they need to realize that Their consumers, their consumer base, is not necessarily that loyal.
So they haven't created that brand loyalty.
So they need to see this as a form of competitive advantage and move in very, very quickly.
I think that needs to be communicated very definitely.
Younger generations, the heavy consumers of social media and changes in lifestyles, are very, very much independent and they will switch and those barriers to entry are not that high.
So again, the economics needs to be communicated, but certainly similarities across the world.
But then again, urbanization and density in certain areas in China, particularly coastal provinces and first-tier cities, is quite different.
Professor Li, what's your observation about the comparison of China's approach to solving problems facing gig workers and those of other countries, both the similarities and differences?
I think China has taken extra measures for protecting these workers' rights and treating their work almost the same as a labor contract.
So these workers are treated as employees of platform companies to some extent and there are more provisions now, whereas In other digital economies these workers are largely still treated as self-employed, like freelance workers, so they do not enjoy the same level of employment benefits or protection.
So it's very difficult for other countries to legislate and move towards more full package protection because the powers this is making is divided and so on.
And there's very, very strong lobby from the platform companies.
Whereas in China, it's much more centralized system.
So I think it expediates the design and implementation of this type of change very quickly.
So i think this could be an example for other countries maybe not in full scale, but selectively pick up some of the elements of chinese guidelines and use it as a basis to justify more positive change or improvement in their regulation of platform.
China has a very clear vision and timeline for the implementation of these guidelines.
They have set a goal of standardizing labor practices across the platform economy by 2027, by next year.
But Jia He gig workers are a very diverse group because the delivery men, the ride-hailing drivers and live streamers have very different working patterns and very different income models and risks.
So how can these guidelines be implemented in a way that's fair across such different groups?
Well, that's a very good question, because you have the regulation and requirements as one thing, but how to apply them?
And when you find, especially when you are applying all these requirements, you will find that sometimes you meet obstacles and problems.
So it's it's actually a huge amount of work.
It's a lot of discussions and detailed analyses um the the government, especially the people who are working these labor departments.
They have to go into the the the front line of the labor market.
They have to talk to people, they have to check out how much money they're actually getting um so so it's a lot of discussions and um analysis has to be conducted and we have to make sure that the voices of the gig workers is heard by the people.
So that's also very important because these people are, you know, they don't really have a lot of voices in the media.
In many cases they work too much working hours so they don't they don't really post a lot of things on the internet so that you can understand them just by reading their social media account.
You have to do a lot of research into that.
So it's really a lot of detailed work in order to get these things properly conducted.
So the workers of new forms of employment need to be heard and need to be seen.
And then, Professor Basting, what kind of long term impact could the better and standardized flexible work protection have on China's economy as a whole?
Obviously, very, very positive.
I've made that point, that that needs to be highlighted on the supply side, the employer side, that there will be a bit of a sigh, a bit of a grudge.
This is going to cost and there's going to be guarantees that are going to sort of hurt their short term financial position within the long term.
It's a win win.
This is where mature economies really come to light and demonstrate that long term investment on the employee side, particularly in fragile and new forms of employment, can only benefit everybody.
And this will be seen as a legitimate form of employment and part of career lifestyles long term.
So the Chinese economy can only benefit from that.
Obviously again, there's going to be a short term hit on the employment side and enforcement is going to cost as well.
But this is where uh modern mature economies really can you know show that um you show the way lead the way and perhaps in europe if we've got one or two economies germany in particular where that has really demonstrated that this this will happen so i think it really is a very very positive thing Coming back to China's urbanization and density, obviously it differs across China.
So I think local government have to be very, very actively involved because there will be modifications and slight or maybe major differences according to the particular urbanization and density, which does vary.
But certainly this is a win-win and again another tick in the box for the further modernization and integration of the Chinese economy with the world economy and leading the way in many ways.
And then Professor Li, looking at the bigger picture of promoting the healthy development in new forms of employment in China.
What other suggestions would you offer to policymakers going forward?
Many governments have actually tried hard. to develop high-tech sector and high-tech employment.
And we can take a historical lesson from Europe.
European Union had something called Lisbon Strategy and they all agreed.
The European countries agreed that from now on we need to create high quality jobs in advanced technology industries and we will have to gradually reduce the low skilled, low wage jobs and then we can all move towards more advanced society.
And that was the kind of response strategy shared by many european countries.
But in fact these countries have suffered a very rapid hike of unemployment rates.
And they wondered why.
What happened?
Because they did not really think carefully about the job destruction or displacement effect of developing high-tech sectors and raising efficiency through automation.
So the famous Nobel laureate Christos Pissarides.
He recently visited China.
They had a study, Pissarides and his research fellow Nagai.
Pissarides and Nagai 2007.
They studied labor market of all European countries and concluded, in short, that these countries need to maintain low skill domestic services or care work or health care service work and so on.
You know these are relatively precarious, relatively low skilled and low wage work, but you cannot reduce a large number of people employed in these sectors and try and raise efficiency and productivity in the economy.
Then the knock-on effect will be higher unemployment and especially young people need jobs and therefore I think China also should take a closer look at service sector and care sector and try to create more jobs in the public sector providing services in these areas, including education, health and other services and so on.
So not only service sector in hospitality, restaurants and so on, but also various kinds of public services could accommodate more employment and so on.
We cannot rely solely on the growth of the new forms of employment or gig workers.
So the traditional service sector employment rate has to be maintained in order to accommodate new graduates.
Okay, thank you for that.
And then, Professor Basting, what do you think the platform companies can do together to make the overall development of new forms of employment better in China?
Well, certainly you mentioned the algorithms.
Certainly, they need to make it very clear that Short term profit maximization is not their goal and they're contributing to society with, as we've discussed, very new forms of employment.
So in many ways it's quite exciting and need to make it very clear that they're not just in it for economic gain, that there's a very important societal contribution.
And, as Professor Lee just said, they need to keep an open mind and things are quite new.
And how do we make sure that employment opportunities are there, particularly for younger people?
So the social media platforms need to speak up more.
They've received a very, very negative press, particularly in the West.
Social media platforms, you know, like Twitter changed its name.
Facebook have been seen to be very, very lacking in transparency and cooperation and have milked financial gains which are eye-watering.
So certainly much, much more publicly available, transparent and algorithms that make it very clear that they're they have a societal contribution and not just short-term economic gain, which has been huge in many, many cases.
So Hopefully we'll see that and again more dialogue with central and local government and accepting the fact that they really have to change.
Chinese consumers and younger consumers around the world are far more demanding, far more discerning and they will force change to a certain extent much more open, much more transparent and much more dialogue and community engagement on the supplier side.
The social media platform, supplier side, is needed very much so.
Okay.
And finally Jiahuo, what suggestions do you have for gig workers themselves or to people who are considering entering this line of work?
Well, I think for gift workers.
They have to look after their own welfare rather than just competing against each other in order to make the best financial return.
They have to care about their own welfare.
And if they find that their own welfare is not well paid or well protected by the companies, they shall be actively to make complaints to the governments and to the media or these places.
I mean, because it's a joint work of everyone.
I mean the governments, the platforms, the legal papermakers, the media, as well as the gig workers themselves, in order to raise the welfare of gig workers.
So gig workers have to be aware about the protection of their own rights.
They really have to be aware about this.
Thank you all for in-depth analysis.
That was Suhi Li, Professor in Organization Studies with the University of Kent, Mike Bastin, China Observer and Senior Lecturer at the University of Southampton.
And Chen Jiahe, Chief Investment Officer at Nova Marquee Technologies.
And that's all for this edition of World Today.
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