You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Steve today with Feifei and Yushan.
Coming up, Yushan, you must be excited because you have a new segment on the show and it's called...
China finds.
China finds.
I gave a little teaser when we started the show today, but it's all about uncovering the history of China and it's going to be a whole lot of fun.
We've got that.
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And now... Think history is behind us?
Think again.
Timeless discoveries.
Modern Meanings.
This is China Finds.
It is the first edition of China Finds, and this is going to be when it pops up on our weekly schedule, a segment that belongs to Yushan, and Yushan alone.
So tell us a little bit about the segment before we get into what you have for us today.
Wow, I'm so excited.
After a few months of preparation, this final, et voila, here it goes.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the first edition of China Finds.
So this is where we travel a little bit across time back in the history of China to understand China better through archaeological studies and our history, the culture here, and also the stories that new discoveries are still bringing up front until these days.
So today, let me start with a quick quiz question for both of you.
Imagine you're standing in ancient China.
I mean 3000 years ago, on this land that we call China now, and you hear birds chirping and something large moves and lurking behind the woods behind you.
And we're talking about wild animals from over 3000 years ago here in China.
So here's the question.
What do you think you'll expect to see first?
A, a deer.
B, a tiger.
C, a crane.
Or D, all of the above.
Or hopefully E, none of the above.
I think a crane sounds nice.
That's the safest.
No, deer is harmless too.
I'm going to say tiger first.
Oh, that's my answer as well.
Something large.
Scary.
Yeah.
Actually, the answer is D.
All the above because you've just walked into what's deemed to be China's oldest zoo.
And yes, this zoo existed 33000 years before your first story.
Well, school trip to the zoo in your hometown.
So here's the news.
At the beginning of this year, archaeologists in central china announced something extraordinary they may have uncovered the earliest known complex of captive wild animals in chinese history.
So the concept of a zoo existed even 3 000 years ago.
I don't think they called it a zoo back then, but yes, that's the idea, sure.
So this discovery happened in Anyang, Henan province in central China, at a very famous archaeological site called Yinxu or the Yin Ruins.
It's the last capital of the Shang Dynasty back in 3000 years ago, which ruled from around 1600 to 1046 BC.
That's the second dynasty in the Chinese history, right?
After Xia.
So the dynasty of Shang.
So it can be a very big city, maybe where the royals live.
Yeah, the royals live and also industry is already very, very famous.
And for all the archaeological discoveries, including oracle bones where ancient Chinese people used to tell fortune, and also bronze artifacts the earliest bronze carving and artifacts that represent the really steady, growing bronze culture at that time.
So this is a place that's already been known for archaeological finds.
Correct.
But just between 2023 and 2024, archaeologists, they dug deeper.
That's about 1240 square meters deeper, and uncovered 19 sacrificial pits filled with animal remains.
So that's relatively a A new discovery, even though what we found is like thousands of years ago back in Chinese history.
So what types of animals did they find there?
It's not just usual farm animals we're talking about.
We're seeing deer, wolves, tigers, leopards, foxes, cirrus, and wild boars, as well as birds, including swans, cranes, and geese.
So a huge variety of different types of animal, and also the archaeologists also noticed something unusual even to them, that let's hear this is Li Xiaomeng, assistant researcher at the Institute of Archaeology Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
So far, we have discovered several rows of animal sacrificial pits between two surrounding trenches in the Royal mausoleum area of the yin ruins.
Here you can see the fairly well-preserved remains of two sacred water buffalo.
We found bronze bells hanging from the necks of the buffalo.
In fact, this entire row consists of pits containing rare and exotic animals, and bronze bells were unearthed from the necks of most of them.
This indicates that these animals were not obtained through temporary or opportunistic hunting, but were rare creatures specially raised by the Shang king.
That's pretty cool.
Water buffalo, I didn't know that.
If they had just found the bones.
Well, that probably wouldn't have been.
It would have been a cool find, but it wouldn't have been that surprising, maybe.
But to find the bells around the necks of the animals' bones.
That's a clue that these animals meant something different.
Exactly.
This is where the story gets really interesting because, as mentioned by the archaeologist in the clip, some of these animals, they wear these bronze bells.
And well, to be exact, that's 29 of them.
And these bells make perfect sense if They were kept alive and appreciated and managed and monitored, instead of just being out there and, you know, being hunted.
Just out there in nature somewhere.
That leads to my second quiz question for today.
Why do you think were these animals kept in captivity 3,000 years ago?
A. They were the Shang Dynasty's vision of a VIP petting zoo for royal guests.
B.
They were part of an elaborate ritual, but also carefully raised and managed, not just for hunting.
C, they were early attempts of domestication, part of trying to control and reshape nature.
D, they were being trained as ancient security guards were wartime rides to protect the royal court.
Can you train a water buffalo?
Before wartime?
I don't know.
I think legends had it that back in like many thousand years ago one tribe leader used to ride a panda.
Oh.
His name is Chiyo.
Yes, that's... But that's, like, prehistorical.
Yeah, but for me, based on my very limited archaeology knowledge, I would guess A they're as the version royal version of the VIP petting zoo.
Really?
Why'd you guess that one?
Because I don't think back to 3000 years ago, they were trying to control or reshape nature.
Because back then I think there's still this spiritual belief about nature is the, you know, ruling power of our time.
And also, I don't think you can train a water buffalo or crane during wartime.
I'm not really sure.
Yeah.
And I don't, you know, a crane as a soldier.
Yeah.
Probably not your best choice.
Water buffalo, sure.
In Kung Fu Panda only, I guess.
That's true.
What was the crane's name in Kung Fu Panda, by the way?
Isn't it the master?
I forgot.
No, no.
One of the proteges.
But anyway.
All right.
So I'm not... Yeah, I'm going to say no to security guards.
I'm going to say no to reshaping nature.
But I'm also going to say no to petting zoo because...
I feel like the animals would have had a deeper meaning to the royal court at that time.
So I will say they were part of elaborate rituals, because we know that in China's ancient history there were a lot of gods, right.
The god of this, the god of that, the god of that.
So I'm thinking that maybe the animals were sacrificed as a... an offering to the gods.
You were getting really close, but let's get the answer from Niu Shishan, researcher at the Institute of Archaeology Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
We found that these wild animals were all juveniles and not yet fully grown.
This suggests that people at the time were attempting to domesticate these animals, engaging in some of the earliest efforts to transform and conquer nature.
So the answer is actually C. They were trying to make pets out of them.
Yeah well, the fact that archaeologists found that many of these animals were actually young when captivated suggests that people at that time were really attempting to domesticate them, raise them.
Fair point.
They were smaller.
They were juvenile.
They weren't fully grown adults yet.
I guess also back 3000 years ago, people were also looking at different options of farm animals rather than just sheep or other types.
I think at different parts of China, different local cultures use different animals too.
But the reason why I mentioned Steve you were sort of right, almost right is also because back then animals in the Shang Dynasty were symbols of power, prestige and this whole cosmic order too.
So many were used in elaborate sacrificial rituals.
That's meant to communicate with the ancestors and the gods that the ancient people believed in.
But here's the really the surprising part where the system behind this zoo that was excavated recently.
That's really incredibly sophisticated, as it shows because archaeologists found standardized handling, diverse species from different regions and signs of organized acquisition and care through their excavation, meaning that a state-level network capable of transporting already exists back in 3000 years ago here in China.
It's amazing that they can know all of that simply from... finding these remains in the ground.
Yeah.
And also another amazing part is about transporting a water buffalo to the central of China.
I'm not sure.
Maybe water buffalo wasn't a native species 3000 years ago, but imagine the power, the resources you need to pour in to capture it and then to transport it I don't know hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Yeah, you're not putting that on the high-speed train in the Shang Dynasty.
You've got to convince that water buffalo to move on its own.
But still, kind of, I mean, not a zoo, but yet kind of a zoo at that time, in a way, I suppose.
Yeah, but the thing is they discover these animal bones but it's not really on.
The animal part of things is also on analyzing what kind of ecological impact it had on the society back then.
So it's not really just on these animal bones, but rather this ancient idea of zoo is actually helping modern scientists to understand the history and environment and also the hierarchy of power back in the Shang Dynasty.
So what happened in the Shang Dynasty also had an influence on today's uh animal care?
Yes and no, because that's a symbol that we're trying to interpret from back in history if we fast forward to today.
Nowadays, animals are no longer reserved for kings, that's for one, because take the beijing zoo, for example.
I think all beijingers had visited in some part of in their life, just like i do i was.
It was founded in 1906, which makes it china's oldest public zoo.
That's covering more than 80 hectares of a space housing over 5 000 animals across around 400 species.
I have not been where is it in the city?
In central beijing, a little bit to the northwestern but still within the central area, is very close to xizhimen station um, In the second ring.
Yeah, it's famous, like also a must-go-to place in Beijing as well.
Been there since 1906.
You visited before?
Yeah, yeah.
I visited multiple times because there were panda.
I think there was also a star panda in that zoo.
Wait a minute, there's a panda in Beijing?
Yeah.
I've been trying to plan a trip to Chengdu for like a year and a half, thinking that's the only place I can go.
I can just take the subway for a few stops in Chengdu you're gonna see the babies, but in Beijing we have several stars here.
That's like kind of the the main tourism spot inside the zoo too.
But it's very nice that you mentioned Chengdu, because now we think about Chengdu in southwest China, Sichuan province.
That's where we align the idea of panda and the local panda culture with the city, because basically Chengdu is already the world's panda capital and the panda being cultivated so well, protected so well it's like loved by all around the world on social media nowadays.
Yeah, and it's an international symbol of China, right?
It's something that everybody knows about.
I have friends who have traveled to China specifically to see the pandas.
Yeah, they visited Chengdu as a matter of fact, and they absolutely loved the experience there.
Yeah, and now you know, modern day zoos are very different obviously, than the way they used to be.
And that place, the place in Chengdu with the pandas, would be the most famous place in China for zoos in general, because the Beijing one might be the oldest right.
1906.
Would the Chengdu one be the most famous, would you say?
I'll say it's the most iconic one regarding animal preservation and specifically when it comes to panda.
Now we have this whole umbrella system that's not only protecting the 1340 wild giant pandas living in the I think there's Chengdu National Park, Giant Panda National Park right there in Chengdu.
So this is not only about these pandas anymore, but the whole system that now protects over 8000 of other rare species, including golden snub-nosed monkey and snow leopard and all the other animals falling into local biodiversity as well.
Even better is that local communities are part of the story of making this work for them.
Like they adapt their houses into ecotourism, attracting people from all across the world to come to Chengdu and have a good time with the pandas.
Cool.
Yeah, not every zoo in China, though, is huge and grand, right?
Some of them are on the smaller side.
Yeah, there is one that I really wanted to visit in southwest China's Guizhou last year when I was there, but really didn't get a chance to.
It's called Kaili.
Also, the zoo is called the humblest zoo in history, the Kaili Zoo.
It's relatively smaller, not really on a national scale.
There are more than 20 species of national protected animals.
But the highlight is that its director is a 70-year-old retired school principal who really spent all of his personal pension on taking care of all the animals there.
Oh, wow.
So it's his own personal zoo?
In a way, he's taking care of it in the name of his brother.
But yeah, he is the curator, the director, and also the caretaker of those animals.
There's one line that he said that's really touching.
I can't starve, but I will never starve these animals that I'm taking care of.
And that really rings a bell to a lot of animal lovers across China paying for the only 21 ticket just to have a visit in his private little zoo.
Hmm.
I think people lined up for it right now to visit this zoo, even though it's not the grandest or have the rarest animals.
It got really famous on social media.
Yes, yes.
But I think there is another zoo that's really becoming sort of online sensation at some point in China as well.
It's telling us about a new path of development when it comes to zoos.
I think you're mentioning the so-called Disneyland of Nanjing, right?
It's the Nanjing Hongshan Forest Zoo that really captured young people on social media nowadays.
It's in the heart of Nanjing, in the Hongshan Forest Zoo, and it's becoming a massive cultural phenomenon, attracting approximately 8 million visitors back in 2024.
But unlike the traditional idea of zoo, the Hongshan operates on the core principle that the animals are the real hosts.
And you guys are just visitors.
You guys, we are equal.
You're visiting the animal's home.
And the zoo director, Shen Zhijun, aims to gradually change the public traditional perception of what a zoo should be.
And here is what he once said in an interview.
My idea of Idea Zoo is a joyful home for wildlife.
It should do everything possible to recreate natural habitats so animals can live more freely and comfortably.
Beyond seeing lively animals behaving naturally, we also hope visitors develop an understanding of living in harmony with nature and coexisting sustainably.
Every life is equal, and a visit to the zoo should be a chance for us to reflect on our relationship with the natural world.
The idea of Hongshan Zoo is really capturing a lot of people because they bring what traditional zoo will usually put in the backstage in front of you the whole total transparency.
You see veterinary care, like koalas receiving medical care, Elephants getting their nails shaped, and you know those, those kind of pedicure care or something like.
Everything is just in front of you.
And they give this whole checkup on their animals, and also zookeepers maintain a bulletin board featuring news on animals.
What are the newborns that we have this year?
Volunteering events, how you can participate in our activities, and even obituaries for animals that pass away to really encourage everyone.
From offline and online to remember them like family.
These types of zoos usually do a really great job at recreating an environment that allows the animals to use their natural instincts.
Right.
And I think that's probably what they do here too.
Yeah.
And also to build tunnels for tigers to walk around above you, right above your head, and visit their neighbors.
Hopefully not eating their co-workers as they say it.
No eating of co-workers and neighbors, guys.
But yeah, they are free to move around.
And visually, you can just tell they enjoy their lives in the Hongshan Forest Zoo.
And also, I think, that zoo.
I tried to get into that zoo when I visited Nanjing at one point, but it was just so popular.
It's difficult to get into.
It's so hard to get into.
But I think also another thing that's very attractive to visitors is that they're recreating nature within the very limited space of zoos, like different species living together, instead of compared to traditional zoos, like if we're seeing monkeys, we're only seeing monkeys in that section and only snakes in this section, but they are having like different species, when they can, to coexist, to co-live with one another.
So, from the archaeological discovery to modern day zoos yushan, why does this story matter to you so much?
Because we see the fact that animals reflect who we are.
And really today, it increasingly means to care on the ethics part and also on protection part.
And it reminds us continuously that what's really changed in our attitude over time, and maybe that's the most important discovery of all, that we are just part of this ecosystem after all.
Well said.
And with that, we will finish up today's roundtable.
Thank you so much for spending your time with us today.
I'm Steve for you, Sean and Feifei.
We thank you for this episode and ask you to come back to the next one too.
Bye-bye.
