Welcome to the Social Work Storiespodcast.
My name is Liz Murphy and I am sitting beside Lake Arrigan in a national park on the North Coast of New South Wales just soaking upnature, which is the theme of our episodetoday, Bush AdventureTherapy.
I'm really excited to be introducing this episode to you because I feel like nature is certainly my therapist at themoment.
Welcome to Social WorkStories, a podcast exploring social work practice through stories and criticalreflection.
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But fornow, on with theepisode.
Helloeveryone, welcome to the Social Work Storiespodcast.
I'mDr. Mim Fox and I am in the studio as opposed to my fabulous co-host Liz Murphy who you just heard was in thebush.
Butwait, I'mback. I've had my I've had my week of BushTherapy.
So, and I am arejuvenated, rejuvenated social workpodcaster.
I loveit. People can hear that in myvoice, I'msure.
I'm sure theycan. I'm sure they can and I'm sure everybody wasgoing, those birds doubts don't sound like Mim andLiz.
But that was just a moment that you captured while you wereaway, rightLiz?
Howfabulous. It was sobeautiful.
Yeah. The bird life wasunbelievable.
I even had a spim in theocean.
So, I thought it was in keeping with the theme of today'sepisode,Mim,that, youknow, here I am innature.
I'm experiencing rejuvenation and we get to talk about it now in a therapeuticmodel.
That'sright. That'sright.
So, this is a special episode Liz because we were able to have a conversation with Amanda Smith and Josh McLeanwho, Amanda's an academic at Griffith University and Josh is a practitioner working in the space of Bush AdventureTherapy.
And when they first brought the idea up tous, it was just really intriguing to meLiz.
I wasthinking, youknow, howdoes, how do weall, we've talked quite a bit on this podcast about the benefits that nature canprovide,right?
In the therapeuticspace.
But how do we actually see the bush as a therapy initself?
Is it possible for nature to be a co-therapist withus?
I,um, I mustadmit, when you told me that we were going to have an episode onthis, I was triggered because I had this image of me in year10, absailing down a rock on one of ourmany, youknow, Catholic school girlretreats.
And Ithought, I needed therapy after thoseretreats.
But it's anything but this is something that's reallyinteresting.
And like yousay,um, nature is the co-therapist in this space with the socialworker.
So, it's probably will make a lot more sense to our wonderful listeners if they listen to this storyfirst.
And then will we come back and then have a little bit of adiscussion?
I thinkso. I thinkso. Let's listen to Josh tell this fantastic practicestory.
And,uh, I think aslisteners,like, start to get a sense of what does bush adventure therapy actually looklike?
What does the therapeutic space look like when you're taking it outside of the clinicalroom?
And,uh, it changes really everything that wedo, Ithink, lives all the way from assessment through to ourinterventions.
So,yeah, let's have a listen toJosh.
Hi, I'm JoshMcLean. I'm employed full-time with a small family operator known business that delivers outdooreducation, guidinginstruction, bush adventuretherapy, outdoorcounseling, disabilitysupport, and therapy dogadventures.
My role primarily is co-lead on the Bush Adventure Therapy program that we've been running for a few yearsnow.
But,honestly, I do one-to-onework.
However, I work also one-to-two and also facilitate group mental healthprograms.
I'm excited to share this practice that I will refer to as bush adventure therapy or bat forshort.
Essentially, social work in theoutdoors, so integrating the ecological domain explicitly into the biopsychosocial model ofhealth.
And, before we get stuck into a casestudy, I want to highlight to you that what I'm about to share is nothingnew.
And what I mean by that is that these practices of beingoutdoors, connecting tonature, have been a part of indigenous approaches to health and well-being on the planet formillennia, especially here inAustralia, on Stalinland, the way that we practice connecting to country would be the indigenousapproach.
And the Western approach is healthyparks, healthypeople, and getting outdoors for better health andwell-being.
So, on this particularday, I received a self-referral through word ofmouth.
This person completed an intake form with assistance from their permanentcareer, and they're 16 yearsold.
They reported having a diagnosis of ASD level 2ADHD, anxiety and depression with potential early childhood trauma with dailymedication.
So, first ofall, set up an intake interview overZoom.
This was the case as this person was unable to travelin.
I prefer doing face-to-faceintake, and that might be if they have another supportperson, whether that's a familymember, acareer, a service provider that can come in with them either to our office or an agreed safe place in a green space like a park in thearea.
So, after the intake and initial assessment overZoom, I was able to co-design the outdoor activities that this participant was interestedin, namely fishing andbush-walking.
Through NDISfunding, this participant was able to attend weekly bat sessions over an extended period oftime.
Activities rangedfrom, but weren't limited tobush-walking,bird-watching,fishing, mountainbiking,bush-cooking, rockclimbing, and eventually multi-dayexpeditions, which not only deepen theexperiences, but also provide respite to the participant and their family orsupport.
So, the initial reason for this referral was that this young person was increasingly disengaged fromschool, sociallyisolated, addicted to theirscreens, and challenging to be around for theirfamily, a pretty common presentation that we have come through tous.
So, utilizing a bat programplan, the participant and I were able to clearly map theirgoals, aligned to their NDISplan, as well as any additional goals that theyhad.
Some of the focus psychological strategies I use with this young person includedsolution-focused,strengths-based, narrativetherapy, acceptance and commitmenttherapy, and mindfulness integratedCBT.
Using acceptance and commitmenttherapy, or known asACT, we were able to identify their main values and use that as a compass to direct us toward meaningfulchange.
While we work together on the NDIS goals of increasedindependence, social and emotionalregulation, communityparticipation, such asschooling, and improved physicalfitness, it really became clear to this young person that hiding in their room house was only leading to moreanxiety,depression, and a sense of helplessness plus increased conflict with theirfamily, which was leading tocodependence.
After months of workingtogether, the participant andI, particularly thefamily, expressed thatthings, if things didn'tchange, that they felt that the behaviors of concern would become too unbearable and that this young person would have to start looking at moving out of the familyhome.
They werestuck. Giving up wasn't an option forthem.
Oneday, when we were out on anadventure, we discovered a family of 20 frogmouths.
The listener hasn't seen a 20 frogmouth.
Imagine a frog and an owl having ababy.
They're the most awkwardcreatures, but they have quite flecked feathers and blended really well to thetrees.
They're quite difficult tospot.
On thisoccasion, we found fledgling still roosting in the fork of a gumtree.
We watched the parents feed and care for these two fluff balls until one day they'd flownoff.
They weren't at the nestanymore.
With excitement andawe, we would visit this frog mouth family on a regular basis until this day that theyleft.
It was reflected by the participant that these fledgling had learned from their parents how tofly, catch their ownfood, and thrive in theworld.
Nature as metaphor is a powerful mechanism for change and in a revelation that I use in my practice and this had a profound impact in this instance on this youngperson.
So much so that in the comingweeks, we set goals for increased schoolattendance, applying for part-timework, which involved role-playing in some of these natural settings where the young person felt safe and regulated because with theirbackground, those windows of focus were so limited that in the natural spaces where the focus was heightened and that window of tolerance expanded were really able to work on some of these goals and joining some local social groups with common interests was also in there to extend those social connections outside of the familysystem.
And within a relatively shorttime, this person went from socially isolated and increasingly challenging tofamily, potential friends and even themselves to acquiring a part-timejob, consistent participation atschool, even picking up a volunteer position with a business of interests that could lead to career development and even a group of friends that they're able to catch up with and feel a sense of support and belonging outside of the familysystem, as Imentioned.
While there were certainly other services involved with thisperson, forexample,OT,GP,psych,etc.
Both the participant and the family felt that a Bush Adventure therapy program played a vital role in shifting the stuckness and helplessness as things had reached a critical point in their lifejourney.
Upon reflecting on this particularcase, I'm reminded of the rights of passage and indigenous approaches to health that explicitly assist people to shift into new and necessary stages of life to not only develop more responsibility forthemselves, but also for their family and their community in meaningful ways that can give them an optimal lifeor, youknow, living their truepotential.
However, thatlooks. Especially when life has dealt you a particularly difficulthand, having the additional resource of bringing the eco-domain into the biopsychosocial approach has proven itself here in this casestudy, but also many other examples I could provide from frontlineexperience, but also from other cultures both here in Australia andabroad.
And while adventure could bemisleading, the threshold for adventure is different for everyone and the strength in this work is that each adventure is individually tailored to the unique needs of the person and group and this is a philosophy that's held in many of the nature-based practices that activate nature for health and healing and that's some 30 plus practices that are continuing to grow as our disconnection in the developing world increases so too historically are the need for these practices that we are nature and our relationship to the natural world is vital for our health andwellbeing.
So, adventure is not just hanging off of a cliff climbing and for super fit able-bodied people where possibleI,we, theteam, break down barriers for all people to tap into the ecological domain for betterhealth, wellbeing andhealing.
SoLiz, like I have to just say this isn't my comfortzone,yeah?
Like you know that I am quite the urbangirl, I love the cityscape and if I run away to the bush it is for theweekend, it is for anevent, it is not my everyday.
That beingsaid, listening to this story of Josh actually engaged in a therapeutic intervention but in the bush setting really got me thinking about thepotential.
I agree but I must say I was excited by this because I do lovenature, people who know me know that I love being in thebush, love gardening and it actually is therapy just doing those things but to add the social worker in this is really interesting because for me me it felt like essentially the bush was a therapeutic space and all of the things that a good social worker does was takingplace.
There was you know a mindfulness in theassessment, there was certainly intent and careful planning around what was going to takeplace, there was that gorgeous use of metaphor with the 20 frogmouth and we know that metaphor can be so powerful for some of ourclients.
So in fact I kind of felt like it was very much a therapy session just in thebush.
I would agree withyou, I feel like let's go deeper particularly around that notion of theassessment.
So let'shear, I was really privileged to have a conversation with Amanda andJosh, so Amanda Smith from Griffith University and Josh McLean who you've just heard with the practicestory, I was really privileged to sit in a space with them and be able to really go a lot deeper into thepractice.
So let's hand the mic over to them to just take us that little step and we'll be back with you in asecond.
In Australia the Australian Association for Bush Adventure Therapy which is currently merging into a new name outdoor healthAustralia, the definition that brings people together is that it is a diverse field ofpractice, combining adventure and outdoor environments with the intentions to achieve therapeutic outcomes for thoseinvolved.
And when we use the wordadventure, it isvery, it's a very inclusiveterm.
So it's not about goingon, it could be but not necessarily about going on peak adventures like sailing adventures or kayaking or equine using equinetherapy.
It could very much be whatever adventure may be termed for theclient, it could be a simple as or actually not as simple as going to the local park with a client that might be experiencing a whole range of mental health or other kind of struggles in theirlife.
And outdoor environment also part of that definition is also veryinclusive, it could beoceans, it could be thepark, it could be by the window in a client's house and so it could include a whole lot aswell.
And I think particularly this being a social work focusconversation, it is always underpinning A-Bad has very clear ethical guidelines and I would certainly sign up to all of those ethical guidelines and they marry up really well with the ASW code of ethics aswell.
So the therapeutic outcome underpins all work involved in ethical professional bush adventuretherapy.
So that's a bit of adefinition, a bit of a little unpacking that comes to mymind.
Josh, does that sit comfortably for you or what else comes tomind?
No,no, that's a great detailed summarythere,Amanda.
I think that butyeah, if the listener hasn't heard of bush adventuretherapy,yeah, that explicit targeted therapeutic approach in theoutdoors, marrying sort of alliedhealth, whether it's socialwork, maybe it could beOT.
It's the marrying of that with the outdoor specialist training andskills.
So the person that's conducting bush adventure therapy and we can certainly go down the path of like what certificates andbackground, but certainly youknow, your firstaid, youknow, just did my life saving recoil if we're around bluespaces.
So in the very unlikelyevent, you have to goswimming.
It's youknow, but these are the types of considerations because nature is sodiverse.
It's also a very dynamic environment to work in and that's one of the big I guess strengths of the outdoor work is that you're co-facilitating withnature.
So sometimes there are things like the 20 frogmouth family that you can observe that youknow, I didn't book them in for a three o'clock on aThursday, youknow, that's something that you know will naturally happen if you will andsay.
I know for when I entered into merging these fieldstogether, love theoutdoors, but no way would I want to take a group of people outdoors and holdresponsibility.
And youknow, I also did a lot of that training at the beginning of my my my marriage of social work adventuretherapy, but it's also notrequired.
The best teams are multidisciplinary and what I'm a big advocate for is for social workers to better understand the options in terms oftraining.
And so there's some of the technical skills you might want to takeup, but there's a whole lot of other ethical inclusion of nature and celebration of nature that doesn't require a lot of the technicalskills, especially when you are working within a multidisciplinaryteam.
That's a question that I getasked, youknow, quite a bit from social workstudents, so I really want to just say that it is very broad aswell.
Yeah,absolutely, because I like to explain that it's sort of two jobs inone, like you're an outdoor guide andeducator, but you're also a therapist at the same time and that it does become a grayarea, but from a legalstandpoint, it's quite black andwhite, like in terms of your duty ofcare, but then sort of the best advice I hadis, youknow, if you were in court and you're explaining this is what wedid, and are you able to say that at all of thosepoints, youknow, wewere, youknow, I applied every tool possible to ensure that we were safe and effective in ourpractice.
So Amanda brought it upbefore, youknow, practicing safe and effective outdoor socialwork, youknow, is a realpassion, and I guess it needs to be front and center with how wepractice, and that sort of expands into that cultural safety aswell, and indigenous approaches are very much at theforefront, so cultural safety you often hear about practitioner acknowledging country when they're on asession, or onunderstanding, youknow, who the local owners are of theland, and so even from acult, like the cultural lens aswell, youknow, safety doesn't have to be riskaverse.
Bush adventure therapy is happening at every part along the stream from extreme early intervention to high intense crisis kind of interventions aswell, and also within every field ofpractice, whether it be working in childcare or in aged care or in drug and alcohol or in newspaces, I think in every one of those practice domains there is Bush adventure therapy happening to differentdegrees, and also if I could just highlight that the peak association outdoor health Australia has just launched a service directory in which if you're in an Northern territory or SouthAustralia, because people are wondering where can I accessthis, I'm sure Josh is asked all thetime, how do access isprogram, I livehere, where can I send mychild,etc.,etc.,too, so in response to that there is now a national service directory that has just beenlaunched, and is a great resource to see where it'shappening, how it'shappening, who's offeringit, so great work being done there aswell.
That'sgreat, that'samazing, so it sounds like actually coming to the doing of adventuretherapy, Bush adventuretherapy, that actually the assessment of what the person is bringing with them to this session or to thisrelationship, and which adventure is going to suit is actually that's going to be a core part of the assessment thathappens,right, because obviously in my understanding ofit, I mean not every adventure is going to suit every traumaticscenario, it would be good for you to talk a little bit about what people bring to these sessions and then how the therapeutic angle then works in with theadventure, that would be great to hear a little bitabout.
Yeah,yeah,absolutely,really,yeah, the philosophy with Bush adventure therapy is that not one size fitsall, and there's certainly no formula for what a right adventureis, but going back to the safe and effectivepractice, assuming that that's all linedup, then it really is choose your ownadventure, and the presentations of the people that we have come into my practice would be ranging from neurodiverse to early childhoodtrauma, working with veterans withPTSD, a wholerange, like we're talking a whole spectrum ofpresentations, and sort of the common theme is that they are looking for something that is active and activates nature as part of their therapeuticmilieu, like theirresponse, because conventional practices might be getting them sofar, but then they often reach a point where they want to try somethingnew, they hear aboutus, and then we have the conversation around clinicalapplication, but clinical application in theoutdoors.
And I think back to two examples in which I was doing half-day programs up to anature-based, well a mountain that's half an hour outside ofBrisbane.
Youknow, just a usual conversation around planning clients to go to have this kind of nature-basedexperience, and a womansaid, I can'tgo, I was sexually assaulted on thatmountain.
So, and youknow, there's a lotof, andagain, socialworkers, good social workers are really doing thoughtfulassessments, and I think about anothertime, a sailing program where thisyoung, young cisgender male was identifying that sailing stopped for me like to dothis, this would just take me out of my comfortzone, because Iwas, youknow, I had a caregiver that often left me unattended in thebath, and so there was some real activations around trauma responses to being on a large body ofwater, but hecame, but it was after a whole range of processes that led into making this feelokay, and for him to recreate stories aroundthat.
So,there's, Imean, there's so manyexamples,Josh, that I'm sure that youhave, but it'sadventure, it'snature, and how do we assess to make sure that where we're going and what we're doing is fullytransparent.
Everyone knows what we'redoing, and the power is kind of shared as much as possible when you are including the co-therapist ofnature.
It's a lot inthat.No,no, that's reallyexciting,Amanda, becauseyeah, you don't know what you don't knowuntil, youknow, and obviously reducing some of thatunknown, particularly in the trauma-informedspaces, really helpful for workingoutdoors.
So, I didn't mention it in the casestudy, but as part of the intakeprocess, we actuallyask, are there anyplaces,spaces, or anything that we need to be aware about in conducting and out ofdoors, therapeutic experience for exactly thereason, but ofcourse, youknow, thereare, I'm not going to go into exactexamples, but there are definitely timeswhere, youknow, you're in the publicdomain.
So, even though you're at a national park or regionalpark, youknow, the public has access toit, and if youwork, youknow, withina, youknow, a smaller city orplace, youknow, you are bound to crosspaths.
So, sometimes that's ablessing, sometimes that can involve a bit of risk management aroundthat, but certainly in the intakeprocess, theidea, I use the term co-design for the listeners that haven't heard that buzzword.
It's really about sitting down with the participant client-centeredapproach, which is really core to socialwork, and it's not a doingtoo.
It'snot,okay, I'm going to take you rockclimbing, because I think that's going to create a peak experience and boost your level of consciousness and transform thattrauma.
It's very much doing with and that way the co-designing process means that you are creating experiences in theoutdoors, and really as a practitioner in Bush-Eventure Therapy we often use the wordfacilitator, youknow,as, youknow,with, we're sort of on the sideline a bit of a conduit between nature and theparticipant, but we're all there having and sharing that experiencetogether.
So, I think the co-designing process is quite critical for exactly what Amandamentioned, because there are definitely spaces and experiences that could actually be anti-therapylic in an ecologicalapproach.
So... If I could just jumpin, I mean the first thing that comes to my mind and Josh and I've spoken about this is Bush-EventureTherapy, not foreveryone, not for every socialworker, not for everyeducated, not for everyclient, and when I entered into Bush-EventureTherapy, youknow, from socialwork, it waslike, doesn't speak tome, whatis, do I actually enjoy beingoutside?
What kind of spaces do youenjoy?
How have I recovered from burnout and compassion for Teague and a whole range of other personal struggles withnature?
So more things to talkabout.
Yeah, so Ithink,yeah, we're going deepernow, rightLiz?
Yeah, andlook, one of the things that I wanted to mention is that this isn't astandalone, like it's like a lot of what we do as socialwork,right?
Josh was able to talk to usabout, this is one element of a very holistic therapeutic plan that he had worked on with hisclient.
So we knew that there was anMDT, other members of the MDT wereinvolved, there was an occupationaltherapist, there was apsychologist, but it built to me like this shook it up in away, likeit, I think Josh even said he wasstuck, this young man was stuck and whatthis, it was one of those things that you and I talk aboutoften, sometimes you have to shake things up in a way that reallycauses, I don'tknow, maybe a little bit of dissonance in the relationship or within theperson, just changingit.
And for thisclient, the connection that he had with nature was just wonderful tosee, and you wouldn't have gotthat, I don't think if you just sat him down in your traditional therapeuticroom, I really think there wouldn't have been that use ofmetaphor, there wouldn't have been the intentionalwalking.
And we've seen thisbefore, especially with youngpeople, you and I have had heard stories before of using this approach with youngpeople, but I don't think it needs to be limited to youngpeople.
Like I wasthinking, wouldn't this beawesome, youknow, for someone who's in a rehabward, medicalrehab, learning how to work on earth as opposedto, youknow, some of our hospitalcorridors.
That'sright. And the research is out there about the impact of the greenprescription, or the blue prescription on mentalhealth,right?
I think forme, what I really loved about this was both Amanda and Josh's emphasis on decolonisedpractice, on that actually this is grounded in an indigenous understanding of country and of our holistic relationship that we have with ourenvironment.
And I thinkoften, particularly when we limit ourselves to that very strict clinicalspace, we kind of get bogged down in the very Western notions aroundboundaries, around personal and professional riskaround, youknow, where does my work stop and the otherperson, the clientstart?
Like, youknow, and I think all of those things actually get looked at through a different lens when you take an indigenous grounded perspective and you actuallysay,well, if I am a co-therapist with mysurroundings, then just as I impact my client every step of theway, sotoo, does the surroundings within which weare.
And I really appreciated that acknowledgement that this is nothingnew, that this is very much borrowing from indigenousAustralians.
AndI, it really highlighted the fact that it's aliving, it's like at the co-therapist isliving, the earth is living inthis, it'snot, it's not an inanimateobject.
Yes. And because ofthat, there is a stronger connection than like yousay,me, but they were sitting in a clinicalspace.
And for someone likeme, that would actually be soulnourishing.
And I would feel very muchconnected.
And I know when I've taken women away onretreats, being in nature is far more healingthan, youknow, if we'd gone to a say a hotel somewhere inSydney.
Yeah.Yeah.Yeah. Imean, the other thing I just wanted to mention though was really like all of the considerations that we have as a social worktherapist,right?
Like that issue of confidentialitythough, like ofcourse, we're always thinking aboutthat.
But that was really interesting that point that they both raised about being out in a public spacethough, you do have to be considering confidentiality in a slightly differentway.
Yes.Yes.Yeah. And I agree that'sright.
That's what I mean by throwing up our Western notions of theseideas.
It really does turn it on itshead.
But for all of this good stuff is if someone were to say tome,I'm,Mimmy, you've got to get out there into thebush.
I have to tell you that that would not be met incrediblywell.
Like I'dsay,yes, I'll go for a bush walk thetoday.
But if they were to say tome, youknow, really what you're going to need is to go and camp for however manydays, youknow, I would find that not to betherapeutic.
You'd be voting with yourfeet.
I'd be working away from from this as anoption.
And butagain, isn't that interesting that that was part of Josh's assessment process about discerning whether this was actually going to work with this particular youngman?
Yeah. That's exactlyright.
And that's what Imean. It really highlights our very basic crucial skills around assessing the circumstances and psychosocial situation of the person that we're workingwith.
Actually thinking through various options around what is the best way forward for the therapeutic intervention and working with the person every step of theway, no matter what it is that has been decidedupon,right?
Like forme, it was just a really a lesson around the transferability of our skillslist.
The final point that I appreciated in this was it wasn't just a head and heartspace.
It was actually moving body and I really for someone likeme, I really likedthat.
The idea of sitting down quietly in a room and not moving has noappeal.
I would much preferthis.
And the lack of eye contact too sometimes can be reallynice.
Yeah. That intense gaze at some times get with yourtherapist.
Walking side by side has a completely different dynamic for many ofthis.
And I have to say that's the work that people do a lot in communitygardens,right?
Where you're busy gardening with your hands and you're spenttalking, well that's happening and that sort of work I think is fantastic and I'm100% on board withthat.
One of the things I know that Amanda and Joshua doing a lot of work and advocacy around is actually training both practitioners and students in bush adventuretherapy.
And I think that's really important that actually this is one of the toolbox liars that we have at ourdisposal.
Right? It's one of the for the ways ofpractice.
And so if anyone is interested in getting on board and knowing more and we're going to link to Amanda and Josh in this episode in the show notes so that you can get in touch directly and have thoseconversations.
And if you're interested in being trained in this space you can actually find some avenues to dothat.
So if I could say to my 16 year old self dangling over that rock while Sister Maureen was down underneath with the strong whistle my friends laughing down the bottom it can actually be a therapeuticprocess.
You can actually engage in nature in a therapeuticway.
Don't worry by the time you're 60 you'll hear about this other way of working with nature that's actually soulnourishing.
So you know I'm so pleased that I got to hear about do we call it that bush adventuretherapy.
And I have to say this conversation is bringing back all my trauma memories from the outdoors aswell.
But no I think that's goodright?
Like I think you're right it's about the working through our relationship with nature as well as a base as a base starting point and before thinking about it as a therapeutic intervention that we can take onboard.
I really want to thank Amanda and Josh for engaging in thisconversation.
I know for me it was really eye opening and I encourage everyone to you know challenge your assumptions as I didLiz.
Well me too I certainly have been stretched one final thing even though I said one final34.
I am hearing more and more of social workers who are doing their supervision innature.
Ohfantastic. Especially around COVID times a lot of our social workers were doing that meeting in a park and doing walking supervision so it kind of whilst it's not bad it actually has some elements of it and taking it into the supervisoryspace.
So everybody get out there and do that and yeah let us know if this episode is inspired you at all to get out and try some newthings.
Awesome thanks so much everyone thanks Liz I hope you all take care of yourselves out there and we'll see yousoon.
We'll see you next month bye fornow.
Bye. Thanks for listening to the social work storiespodcast.
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