Build Trust First — or Lose the Deal: The Real Way to Win Negotiations | Negotiate Anything

Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.

With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone, and in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

This episode is brought to you by Granola, Shopify, and Fabric by Gerber Life.

If meetings are eating up your day and you want clean, structured notes without the stress, try Granola AI totally free for three months at granolaaicom.

Ready to turn your what-ifs into a real business?

Sign up for your $1 per month trial with Shopify at shopify.com.

And finally, for the parents listening, protect your family's financial future in just minutes.

Apply for term life insurance today at meetfabric.com slash kwame.

Policies issued by Western Southern Life Insurance Company not available in certain states.

Prices subject to underwriting and health questions.

Keld, thanks for coming back, my friend.

Thank you for having me, Kwame.

Yeah, it is our pleasure.

So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Well, yes.

The good news is I don't have a job, Kwame.

I got a mission.

And that's what I'm always telling people.

And my mission is really to try and help everybody understand how important negotiation is for all of us.

I find in general that too many professionals are not acknowledging the importance of negotiation.

And I realized that all the way back in the 90s.

As I said, I don't have a job because I really love what I'm doing.

So my mission is really to help and change the mindset of how we think about collaborating and negotiating.

Incredible.

And we are brothers in that sense because we believe the same thing.

It's incredible work that you do.

And listeners, my friend Keldiz is very modest.

He is a global guru's top 30 negotiation guru leader in the in the field.

Twenty five books.

But now we have a twenty six that we're going to talk about and then an award winning negotiation program as well.

So listen, don't sell yourself short.

I'll hype you up.

So let's talk about this new book.

First of all, I think it would be cool to get into just your mindset behind releasing a 26th book after you've already contributed so much literature to the field.

Yeah well, a lot of people are asking me anything else you want to share and where is it coming from?

And, To be honest, I actually thought I was done two books ago because I was kind of fed up with just writing about tools and stuff about negotiation.

And there are so many good books out there already.

And I'm often asked the question by journalists, by the way, Kwame, why should people buy your book?

And I'm often asking in a very surprising way because I'm often saying, well, they shouldn't.

What I mean by that is they shouldn't only buy my books.

They should buy books from others.

And I think some people make the mistake of just buying one book reading that and then they think they know everything about negotiation.

And that is not the case.

They have to buy your book, my book, somebody else's book probably read eight or 10 different books, because we can't comprehend and we can't put everything about negotiation in one book, or even 10 books, because there's so many directions into negotiations.

It's so, so important that if you want to seriously study negotiation, that you hopefully want to read one of my books, but also a bunch of other great authors out there.

Pick their books and read them as well.

Back to a question for me.

Why did I do another one?

Well, first and foremost, I'm trying to be a little holistic about negotiation.

So not just delivering a toolbox, because there's so many books delivering tools to a toolbox about how you should negotiate.

So my previous book, the one that came out last year, Negotiation Essentials, is about Talking more about the mindset, how to change the mindset, what negotiation is and isn't based on my philosophy.

And that may not be the same as everybody else's.

The new book, 103 Elements, is actually based on research since I started my career in the 90s, where we have looked at 35000 and basically isolated what makes some of them more successful compared to others.

So back to what I just said, to contradict myself a little bit, that actually is really a tool book because it is 103 elements.

And we actually use the elements idea to cover it.

So we basically go through 103 important elements thoughts tools processes, philosophies on how you should improve your negotiation.

And you may ask me, Kwame, why 103?

Why not 105 or 102?

And I can say, well, that was all I could come up with.

You could probably find an additional eight.

Who knows?

So that was just where we ended.

So that was the reason it was 103.

Beautiful.

I love this.

And I think the fact that it's 103 makes it more memorable and it shows legitimacy too.

Because whenever somebody comes out to something where it's like a perfect number, I'm like what sacrifices or embellishments did you make?

I appreciate the specificity.

And I love the holistic nature of your thought leadership too, because you're right.

I mean, you can't just capture somebody's, the entirety of their thoughts in just one book.

And it's important to have that ability to understand different methodologies because maybe, even if you don't find yourself using one of the methodologies, it's important from a defensive perspective to understand what somebody might do to you in a negotiation.

And when you think about all of these different elements that you came up with, if you were to pick one that is the most practical or the one that is the most frequently utilized, which one would come to mind?

Oh, that's a great question.

I think one of the key things that I'm pretty sure would agree with me, what I find again and again and again with professional negotiating is they forget to ask questions and arguments.

That I know it sounds really basic and very simple, but it seems to be a thing repeating itself over and over again.

We forget to ask questions.

For instance, if you're a supplier to Mequam and you come and say you know what I can deliver in eight weeks, then I'll start arguing, saying but I need it in five.

And perhaps that's the case, but instead I should ask the question to you is it possible to do it in five?

And what would the consequence be of you delivering in five instead of eight weeks?

We often forget to show an interest, show empathy, ask questions to the counterpart and then obviously, listening.

We have a great colleague at Harvard, Dr Dan Sapiro, that I admire a lot and, together with you and a lot of other respected leaders in this area,

And Dr Sapiro came out recently and talked about that.

We got an issue as human beings, not only in negotiation, but as human beings that we are tribal people.

And we have a tendency to stay in a tribe and really only listening to somebody who agrees with us.

So if you and I negotiate in Kwame and we are not in agreement, I stop listening to you, because I'm basically just focused on what I'm saying.

So I'm not listening to what you're saying.

I'm basically just sitting there waiting for me to start arguing after you're done talking.

And, you know, I see that, oh, I know, again, in negotiation, we don't really listen.

And I'm often saying that we should replace the sound of the word with the sound of a cash register when a negotiator raise a topic.

Because if I say I have an interest in changing delivery time OK, that means you have a financial interest in doing that.

Otherwise, you don't you wouldn't raise that topic in a commercial negotiation.

So what you have to do as a negotiator is then ask the question so what's your value if we could change that delivery time?

So anyway, it was a long answer to a question Kwame, but what I'm really focused on and you just asked that question it's a good one and hard to just answer that one simple.

But I would say the ability to listen and ask questions is essential and really in my world separates the great negotiator from negotiators from the bad negotiator.

This is so incredible and incredibly validating too, Kel.

So I was chatting with Charles Duhigg yesterday.

He was on the podcast and he has a new book coming out and he showed some really interesting research.

He said the great communicators ask questions 10 to 20 times more questions than the novice communicators.

And it speaks directly to what you said.

The thing I told him is that I was getting uncomfortable with the podcast episodes talking about curiosity and asking questions because it came up so often.

But The reality is the reason why it came up so often is because number one, it is so fundamental.

And number two, even though it is so fundamental, people still don't do it.

We still need reminders.

And so I think it would be great to get into what is it that gets in the way of being curious in the middle of these conversations.

We talked about tribalism.

What are some other things that get in the way?

As you might know, one of my cornerstones in negotiation is trust.

I actually just finished a doctorate on negotiation and trust, where I spent almost three years just studying trust and trying to make trust a tangible asset, something that we can monetize.

Thank God I succeeded because otherwise I would have wasted three years.

So what I managed to prove is that high level of trust will decrease transaction cost and improve profit.

So what I'm basically saying is that if we manage to create a high level of trust, everybody negotiating, or everybody involved in that negotiation, will be financially more profitable.

And I think back to your question, why is it that we don't ask the question?

I think a lot of the time it's really because we are trying to defend ourselves.

We are trying to hide information.

We don't understand that transparency and trust is important.

So by asking questions, some people... feel that they're being a little bit too open.

They might show some engagement or interest in the counterpart.

And by showing an interest, some people perceive themselves as being the weak party.

So it's really down to, again, what I said earlier about the mindset and how to negotiate.

And what I'm telling all my students and clients, Kwame.

I know this may sound weird, but we have to negotiate on how to negotiate before we start negotiating.

And I want everybody to do that.

Everybody listening right now, I know some people are sitting out there thinking this guy is crazy.

You have to look at it this way.

We all perceive negotiation differently.

You may see negotiation like playing chess.

I may perceive negotiation like playing tennis.

So I'm walking into the conference room with a racket and sitting there and waving my racket in the air.

And you're sitting on the other side of the table moving the pieces on the chessboard around, right?

This sounds ridiculous, but that's the way a lot of people negotiate.

And then they waste the first three hours figuring out, are we going to play tennis or chess?

So what we have to negotiate, even before we start negotiating, is how are we going to negotiate today, Gord?

Are we going to be open, transparent, collaborative?

Are we going into a positional game where it's a zero sum and we're not exchanging values and costs?

And this is so essential.

And I see it work in reality.

And people say, So much time addressing that.

And on top of that, now I'm saying something else that could provoke people.

We also have to verbalize trust.

I always say we should put trust on the agenda.

And what I mean by that is we should agree Kwame.

What happens if you and I are negotiating and trust is declining?

Are we allowed to raise that topic?

Saying Kwame, if you feel you have less trust in me an hour from now, please tell me.

And please tell me why you're allowed to do that.

And hopefully I'm allowed to do the same because we have to remember one thing.

It's never organizations negotiating with each other.

It's Kwame and Kel negotiating, all businesses, people, right?

So the relationship, the trust, the mindset, how the personal chemistry is working out, is fundamental for us to succeed really in negotiation.

I'm sorry, that was a very long answer to your question.

Don't stop.

Keep going.

I'm loving this answer.

It's incredible because you're 100% right.

And the fact that you actually spend a lot of time studying trust is very important, because trust is a word that we throw around very frequently.

But one of my favorite things to do is ask people in a training, what is trust?

And it's fascinating to see them struggle with it.

And if we can get a better understanding of it, then we can quantify it.

We can do something about it.

But if we just feel it but don't fully understand it, then we're just kind of leaving trust up to chance.

And I love the idea of putting this on the agenda because something that is just as important as any of the other tangible things that we're negotiating.

But there seems to be sometimes discomfort and reluctance with being vulnerable in that sense.

And we would rather avoid it.

And when you think about this approach like actually quantifying trust, putting it on the agenda, having a conversation about trust and having a conversation about negotiating, how we negotiate a lot of people they might think this is strange.

They might be taken aback or caught off guard or think that this is like a ploy of some sort.

So, as we're putting this into practice, what are some things we can do to help the other party feel more comfortable utilizing these techniques?

Yeah, that's a great question.

Again, I often recommend, especially if it's an important negotiation, that we basically have a pre-meeting before the actual negotiation, where the purpose is basically to brainstorm, sitting down, developing variables.

So variable, for those who don't know it, is something that is negotiable.

So that could be delivery time, pricing, warehouse, installation services, what have you.

We sit down and expand the number of variables.

And the reason we should do that, by the way, that's another fact for me is that most negotiation, commercial negotiations, negotiating on too few variables.

I had an example with a client recently within the energy sector.

They were doing projects in a size that could be three, four, five hundred million dollars.

And they were negotiating on nine commercial variables.

It could be installation, price, service, education, what have you.

We did a brainstorming session with them where we just facilitated so they did the work themselves.

But within one day they had created 76 variables and they implemented 12 of those And improve their profit by 4 just by expanding the number of variables.

So one question I would raise to all your listeners Kwame, is really take a look at how many variables you're actually negotiating on.

I was bored six, seven months ago.

So I was sitting at home thinking, how many variables do we actually have when we buy a car?

And I was just sitting there trying to list them.

And I'm probably having exhausted that list at all.

But we have price.

We have delivery time.

We have accessories.

We have service agreement.

We have the trading value of the old car.

Anyway, just to cut it down, I ended up with 64 variables.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not done.

Could you imagine Kwame, next time you go out there to buy a car, you go into this car sales rep and you pull out the list and say we have a few items we need to talk about.

You'll probably get a heart attack.

So anyway, the point of what I'm saying here is that I recommend we actually have a pre-meeting where we're not negotiating.

We're basically sitting down as a team the counterpart and us and the purpose is just figuring out how can we make this a mutual success?

One thing I'm pointing out in my notebook something I'm actually doing in real life, advising clients as well is if you believe in collaborative negotiation, you know some negotiation is somewhat different.

But if you believe in a collaborative negotiation, you should open up your negotiation by saying the following

I'm here to help you reduce your costs, your risk, and your liability.

And I'm here to help you improve your profit.

Would you be interested in me helping you doing that?

Now I can promise you, when you're trying that in real life, your counterpart will look suspicious, but they will say yes, because obviously everybody wants that.

When you have got that approval, then you move on by saying OK and, with due respect, I see your assignment here today is helping me reducing my cost, liabilities and risk and help me improve my profit.

Would you help me do that?

Because that is the assignment.

Our assignment, working together in a collaborative environment, is reducing the negative and improving the profit.

And that's really my take on negotiation, Kwame.

I see it as an exercise in creating and distributing value.

It's not a zero-sum game where I should win 100 at your expense or you should win 100 at at my expense.

It's a collaborative effort where we create value.

And again, you know, I'm in commercial negotiations.

So the way I perceive negotiation.

As I just said, it's every single time two organizations negotiate with each other.

There's only one reason they're doing it to create and distribute value.

I say this all the time and I want to say it to you too.

The sign of a brilliant insight is that it seems obvious in hindsight.

And this seems obvious now.

But what's interesting to me is that I've never, in over 1200 episodes of the podcast, heard anybody articulate this

And if you were to ask any of these negotiation experts do you believe these things?

They would say yes.

But when it comes to intent, a lot of times we hold that intent close to our chest and we don't share our positive intent with the other side.

And going back to what you said about tribalism, if we are seeing them as the other side, then there's no reason for us to assume positive intent.

That would take actual intentional, emotional, and cognitive effort for us to overcome that bias.

But the best way to overcome that bias is by stating this explicitly and inviting them to do the same.

And will it always work?

Absolutely not.

Some people won't do it, don't see the benefit, don't have interest, and it won't always work.

But Imagine if it just worked in 40 or 50 of the cases.

You're going to be so much more profitable in your negotiation.

So it's not about everything should be turned into collaborative negotiation, because it won't and it shouldn't.

But in those cases where it makes sense, it should.

I'm working with the metrics.

You know that feeling when you're in back-to-back meetings all day?

You're nodding along, trying to contribute, but in the back of your mind you're secretly stressed because you're trying to remember exactly what was just said or who was supposed to follow up on what.

Meetings can be a mess, but Granola AI fixes that.

Granola is an AI powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet.

Here's how it works.

You take rough notes like you normally would.

And then in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting.

Then it turns everything into clean, structured and actually useful notes the moment the meeting ends.

The best part?

It works through your device's audio, so it integrates seamlessly into the tools that you already use.

No setup and no awkward tools.

It's just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.

I've found that it lets me actually listen instead of frantically typing.

So I walk away knowing exactly what was decided and what comes next.

Before Granola, our team would spend extra time cleaning up notes and double checking details.

Now we leave meetings aligned and clear.

It saved us time and helps us to operate at a much higher level.

If meetings are eating up your day.

Granolaai is a no brainer and you can try it totally free for three months.

Just head to granola.ai.com.

That's granola.ai.com to get your time back.

Get three months free at granola.ai.com.

Today, I want to talk about something that a lot of us put off, and that's life insurance.

Now I get it.

It sounds like it's a big undertaking.

But if you have family or loved ones who depend on your income, a term life policy is an important step that you can take today to protect their financial future.

Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance that you can get done today.

It's made for busy parents.

It's all online and on your schedule.

You could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required.

If you have kids, the time to lock in low rates is now.

Fabric has flexible, high-quality policies that fit your budget, like a million dollars in coverage for less than 1 per day.

And there's no risk because they offer a 30-day money-back guarantee and they are trusted by millions of families.

Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family.

Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com.

That's meetfabric.com slash kwame.

Use my link so they know that I sent you.

That's meetfabric.com slash kwame.

Policies issued by Western Southern Life Insurance Company, not available in certain states.

Price is subject to underwriting and health questions. for me, that's in the new book as well.

It's a very simple matrix where we basically have four quadrants and the horizontal line shows how important are we to the counterpart and the vertical line shows how important is the counterpart to us.

So if both parties are very important to each other, right, we end up in the top right corner.

And in the top right corner, everything should be collaboration, transparent, honest collaboration.

Not doing it if both parties are equally important to each other and I'm sorry to be very direct is unintelligent.

It really is.

On the other hand, if you are in a commodity market, so you're on the left side, on the horizontal line, at the bottom, on the vertical line, You're in a quadrant where you have no risk and lots of suppliers and lots and lots of clients.

Should you be in collaborative negotiation down there?

No, not always.

Perhaps it's a waste of time trying to be collaborative.

Perhaps you just go out there and do an auction or whatever you feel like, Because you're just buying something very simple, something stupid.

But you have to be conscious about when you choose positional negotiation or collaborative negotiation.

And what I find quite often unfortunately, is that negotiators just stumble into the conference room and accidentally end up in collaborative or zero-sum orientated negotiation.

They don't even know why they picked one of the other strategies.

It just happened because the counterpart was this way. or the other way, right?

But you have to be very conscious about that.

And I think that's a mistake a lot of negotiators and organizations, by the way, are doing as well.

I just want to add one more thing.

When I step into a new organization or work with students, the first thing I always ask them is could I please see your official negotiation strategy in your company?

And then everybody's quiet for about a long time, because and some of them may say something, but it's not a strategy

And what I'm just saying is the majority of organizations and governments around the world don't have an official negotiation strategy.

They have a research and development strategy.

They have a communication strategy.

They have a go-to-market strategy.

They have all the other strategies that business school teachers that we should have, right?

But a negotiation strategy, nada, nothing, sip, absolutely nothing.

And one of the studies that we found is that not having a negotiation strategy is a disaster.

It's the same thing as not having a communication strategy in the budget for the next 12 years or whatever other strategy we should have.

So my appeal and advice to everybody is you have to sit down as an organization and develop your negotiation strategy.

How do we want to negotiate?

And we have to remember that negotiation is I'm not just saying that because I'm living and breathing negotiation.

When we think about it on the value chain, when two organizations exchange, make or lose money, it is happening at the negotiation table.

That is where it's happening.

So there's a lot of stuff happening behind that, but the actual creation of value and exchanging of value is happening right there.

So it is so fundamental.

And what I'm seeing now, thank God, is that There's a strong movement among a lot of organizations, especially in North America, to create a center of excellence on negotiation.

I see that happening every week now.

So they're actually creating a unique expertise in a team of people that have no other purpose than just negotiating and supporting the organization in their negotiations.

And that is growing.

And you might have seen there was a McKinsey & Company study that came out last year where they interviewed Fortune 500 CEOs.

And 93% of the CEOs at Fortune 500 felt that negotiation was so important.

So within the next three years, they would appoint a chief negotiation officer in the organization.

And out of the 93%, 96% of them said, that they felt that negotiation was so crucial and essential.

So if they have qualified negotiator, they could increase their profit by at least their earnings by at least 5.

Now, let's assume those numbers are right.

We are talking billions and billions of dollars that are being left on the table because of incompetent negotiators.

This is incredible.

And again, the thing that I love about this is that it is well researched.

This is not just an opinion.

This is legit.

And it really calls into question a little bit of not just the strategy but the mentality behind it.

Because a lot of times in negotiation, even though it is vitally important, For some reason it is not top of mind for leadership in companies.

And I think one of the things I want to ask you about the going back to the book with the elements is when you did your research and we have these one hundred and three elements we talked about, curiosity being the one that came up the most frequently and probably the most practical.

But which one was the most surprising to you that you didn't expect to see?

Yeah, that's a very good one.

I think one of the surprising one is how irrational we are as human beings.

You know, that is just constantly surprising me because we love to be rational, all of us.

I like to tease people, Kwame.

I have a sense of humor, I hope.

And often when I talk to a C-suite or a vice president or what have you high-level individual, I love to tease them by saying how could you make so many irrational decisions?

And you know they get offended because it seems that in our world being irrational is a bad thing.

But listen, what if it's a fact that we basically are irrational?

The late Dr. Kahneman, Daniel Kahneman is one of my heroes.

He passed away just, what was that, a few months ago?

And he is the father of behavioral economics.

And behavioral economics.

For those who don't know about, it is the merger between traditional economics and psychology, and which is very important for the world of negotiation.

Dr Kahneman won the Nobel Prize, by the way, and I'm simplifying, but he basically won a Nobel Prize because he proved that we are irrational.

We decide with emotions and prove our decision with facts later on.

So we find the fact that proved our emotional decision was correct.

And what Dr Kahneman also claimed and I believe 100 is that he's saying we will always prefer to do business with somebody we like and trust that has the worst product at the highest price than we do business with somebody we don't like and don't trust that has the most competitive product at the lowest price.

So back to what I said, we have to acknowledge that we are irrational.

But still, through our research, I am still amazed on how irrational we are.

And probably even more maze that we won't admit it.

I mean, if it's a fact we are irrational, why just not admitting it?

We are emotional creatures.

We are human beings.

We make decisions on emotions.

I was sitting in Europe a few months ago with a governmental client and you know they have to follow tender regulation from Europe.

European Union, so you can't really negotiate so much.

You can have meetings with your suppliers and then, based on an equal measurement, you can decide who you want to purchase from.

We had four different suppliers and most expensive one.

When we had finished.

They all had two two hours meeting and it was 100 million dollar budget that they only allowed two hours meeting, which i thought hey, that's amazing.

We have to decide, based on two hours meeting and a written proposal, who we should buy, but anyway, that was the case.

So, after the meetings with all four suppliers over two days, the most expensive one, What's the one?

And hang on for me.

This is interesting.

What's the one they like the most?

So the committee, the committee from my client start discussing while I was sitting in the room.

We like this one the most.

This is the one we want to buy from.

However, she is the most expensive right now.

So we have to find an alibi. how we can buy from him regardless.

So they based the decision on a 100 million project only on whether they liked the supplier or not, which became way more important.

Then the price and the content, then the technology and everything else.

And you know what?

This is happening all the time.

We just don't admit it because we always want it to be very rational and very practical.

And look at the numbers and these ones can do this, and what have you?

But deep down, it's all a question about do we trust individuals?

Do we like them?

And if we like them and they're more expensive, we will try to find an excuse to prove that they were more competitive.

And then we find back to what Dr Kellerman said.

Then we find the fact to prove that our emotional decision was absolutely right.

And again, sorry, long answer, but you're just asking what was the most surprising.

That keeps surprising me all the time.

Yeah, I agree.

100%.

Every day we are confronted with that reality in one way or another.

Like, how is this possible?

And then we just have to accept this is just a fundamental part of human nature.

This is what humans tend to do.

Tell me what you think about this, because I think there are two ways of thinking about it.

And I think a lot of folks who are listening are saying, well, folks are irrational.

So what I need to do is break through that irrationality and figure out how to persuade them.

And that is one method.

And I think that method might be the path of most resistance.

I think what we can learn is that We are irrational, we are emotional, and we are biased creatures.

And so what we should do is ethically emphasis heavily on ethically try to get those positive emotions, positive biases and trust moving in our favor in a way that is beneficial to both parties.

And then we don't need to break through rationality or irrationality because they already favor us.

I agree.

Yeah, absolutely.

Spot on.

Yeah.

Oh, this is great.

Before you go, I want to give, and this is personally.

I'm curious on this one because your methodology is very unique.

We talked about that.

And I want to know how much your international background has contributed to your unique approach, because you know, I'm a child of immigrants but I haven't done any business in my parents' country, right?

You have lived, worked, played, and taught all around the world.

And so how much have an impact on your perspective on negotiation?

Oh, I think a lot.

I think there's, you are a child of your background, right?

You're learning from your background.

You are educated by your culture.

And I was fortunate to be born and raised in a country that is considered one of the happiest in the world and with the highest level of trust.

There was actually just an article coming out a few days ago about the secret of Denmark being trust, and the competitive edge of the wealth in Denmark is trust, because it's a very trusting society.

I think I brought a lot of that to the world.

Now, Danes are so trusting, and Scandinavia is sometimes so trusting, so they become almost naive.

So they have to find the middle road as well.

But it is lovely to see how trust really works.

I mean just to give you an example in Denmark one company could call another company for me and say hey, I love your service or your product.

Could you send me for $200,000 and just add an invoice?

And the other company will go, OK.

And they don't have a relationship.

They don't know each other.

But you automatically assume that of course you'll pay an invoice, because that's what you're supposed to do.

And you have faith in the legal system.

So if the buyer for some reason is not paying, you have faith and trust in the legal system that it will efficiently handle that for you.

So there's not an issue.

So back to what I said with Dr. Kahneman's example, right?

When trust is high, transaction cost is low.

And transaction cost in this case is that You don't have to spend thousands of hours on lawyers.

I don't want to offend you, Kwame, but you don't have to spend thousands of hours on lawyers.

You don't have to do a lot of contracts.

You don't have to put up bank guarantees.

You don't have to do a lot of stuff that I see in less trusting countries where it's so complicated doing business with each other because you basically don't trust that.

The the agreement.

You have to put all these measures to secure that you get paid and what have you.

Life in Scandinavia is so easy that way around because trust is there.

Now, I'm married to an American, and we got married here in the US, Guam.

What was interesting was my wife.

She's lovely, but marriage to her that was like you know Baba, I have to be pink.

And I just think, God, oh, God, this is so expensive.

But, you know, one of the things she wanted, she wants a coordinator.

She wanted a wedding coordinator.

And I didn't know why, but she wanted a coordinator.

So obviously, we got a coordinator.

That's the way it works in our negotiation at home.

And we interviewed several coordinators.

And this one coordinator that my wife wanted, so I've had to end up doing that negotiation with her.

She came with a contract.

And all she had to do was work four or five hours in coordinating stuff.

She came with a contract for 12 pages.

And as a Dane, I was sitting there going, oh, God, what was you like a contract?

You know, you all you have, you just coordinate what?

And she said, yes, I need a contract.

OK, so I was sitting down and I read the contract and there was a few items that I couldn't agree with.

I just felt they were not appropriate.

So I pointed it out and sent it back to her.

And then she said, oh, OK, now I have to go to my attorney and get his advice.

And the contract value, Kwame, of that contract was less than $1,000.

And I was just sitting there going, oh, my God, this is such a waste of time for you and for me.

And at the very end, we didn't hire at all because it just was way too complicated.

So in the end we hired another coordinator that had no contract, did the job perfectly and everything was fine.

So to me, again, that's just an example of that transaction cost that is so high.

Why do we have to make it so complicated, right?

So anyway, again, long answer, I apologize.

But I think that some of the things that I'm taking with me and obviously that has an impact in my life that I think that sorry.

Let me just give you a quick other example.

I started my career in Cirrus back in what feels like 1800s.

And I was in the sales department selling huge production printers that they were selling to insurance companies, banks and governments, and what have you?

And I'm not exaggerating my story.

Back then, this was in the 80s.

A contract, I was very young, very unexperienced, but a contract back then was four pages.

That was it.

That was a contract.

And we would sell one of these printers that had a value of $200,000.

And everybody was happy.

I visited Xerox two years ago in 2022.

They're still selling the same equipment, almost at the same price.

Obviously, from a technology point of view, they're more advanced today.

And I asked them, could I please see your contract today?

Kwame, are you ready?

They brought in the contract.

It was seven binders.

And I didn't know what to say.

I always start crying.

So the contract had expanding from four pages to seven binders during that period.

And I'm just thinking, what are we doing to ourselves?

I mean, are we waking up every morning thinking, how can I complicate life to Kwame?

I mean, is that really the purpose or should we try and simplify life?

That's why I believe in trust transparency collaboration, because it just makes life so much easier.

Amazing.

Keld, I really appreciate you.

I love chatting with you.

I'm glad I got to see you in person for, you know, all of 90 seconds.

You ran in and ran out.

I was late for the keynote.

I don't know.

We even got there on time.

The presentation didn't work.

You remember that?

Yes, I do.

Do you know what, Kwame?

I never praised you.

I could see we have a pro speaker up there because you handled it perfectly.

Technology was, as usual, not working for Kwame, just for everybody listening.

But Kwame, he just did it perfectly.

I mean, you were doing a great job.

I was sitting down there as a colleague applauding you, thinking you were doing great.

Thank you, man.

That means a lot because I was sitting in front of 300 lawyers on a presentation like a keynote, with no slides, no notes or anything.

I'd have to like tap dance for 15 minutes.

That was tough, man.

So that means a lot.

I appreciate you.

And again, I appreciate you for coming on.

And before you go, just let the listeners know again about this newest book and how they can work with you too.

Oh, yeah, sure.

Elements of Negotiation.

You can pre-order it on everywhere you buy your books right now.

Barnes & Noble, Amazon, where have you.

It's published by Wally.

Official launch date is August 27.

If you want a first edition, I would recommend you do it right now, because first edition is not that big.

Besides, if you have an interest in what I'm doing, Google me, look on YouTube, LinkedIn.

Happy to connect with everybody.

So yeah, lots of options.

Amazing.

Keld, thank you so much for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.

Let's dive in.

Joanne, thanks for joining us today.

It's my pleasure, Karmay.

Thank you for having me.

Hey, man, it's a pleasure to have you.

So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yes.

So I am an attorney here in Brooklyn, New York.

I've been an attorney for almost 10 years now.

My background is in business litigation, meaning I represent businesses, primarily smaller to medium sized businesses, in litigation matters like contract disputes.

If you have a business and you have people with another business over a contract, I can represent you.

If that matter potentially go to litigation, I can represent you at the before it goes to litigation to try to resolve it to some kind of negotiation.

And I can also represent you when the matter goes to court and you have to go in front of a judge and trial and all of that good stuff.

Another type of matter that I work on is representing partners in partnership disputes.

So if you have a business partner and, for some reason, the partnership has reached a point where it can only go forward because of disagreements and other partners not cooperating and ending things in an amicable way, you can come to me and I can represent you in trying to find ways to end the partnership, either amicably or through the courts, which is always the best option.

Try to resolve matters in an amicable way so that both parties can walk away as a few damage to both their mental states and property as possible.

But if we have to go to court, we also represent you, our lawsuit on your behalf or we can also represent you in that dispute.

And the last area that we focus on are shareholder disputes right.

So if you're a shareholder of business or a corporation and you feel that the board of the corporation is not acting in the corporation's best interest, you feel that the board is engaging in fraudulent behavior, that they're acting on their behalf as opposed to the interest of the shareholders, then you can come to us and we can try to interfere on your behalf by requesting that the board be transparent with its inner workings.

Requesting documents.

And if it's in fact proven that there's inappropriate behavior going on, we can take action on your behalf.

So those are the type of matters that we focus on.

Perfect.

And Joanne, let's start this episode off with a public safety announcement here.

Hypothetically, let's say I own a business.

When should I engage a lawyer?

That's a very good question.

Engage an attorney as soon as possible.

The sooner, the better.

So when you have the idea to start the business, that's when you should consult with an attorney, because the attorney will be able to into the process of making sure that you have all of the documents in place that you need to be registered in your particular state.

The attorney will make sure that you have all the agreements drafted that you need to protect yourself and in future activities.

If you have a partner that you're going into business with, your attorney will be able to draft a partnership agreement to make sure that your rights are protected and your partner's rights are protected as well.

The agreement will outline all your responsibilities, your duties, your rights so that later on, when things get to a point where it can get messy, the agreement will be there to protect both you and your partner.

We've all been there.

It's late at night and you finally find that one product that you've been waiting for.

But then you realize that your credit card is in the other room.

That's when that iconic shop pay button becomes your best friend.

It has all of your information saved, making checkout as simple as a tap of your screen.

Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US.

They help you to accelerate your efficiency with AI tools and give you world-class expertise in processing returns and managing inventory.

Because of features like Shop Pay, Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet, which means fewer abandoned carts and more sales for you.

See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales go through with Shopify and their Shop Pay button.

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash Kwame.

Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame.

That is Shopify.com slash Kwame.

We talk a lot on this show about the importance of learning and staying sharp.

But let's be honest between work and life.

Who actually has time to read every single book that can help you to get ahead?

And that is exactly why I use Blinkist.

It's an app that takes the world's best nonfiction books and breaks them down into 15 minute summaries that you can read or listen to.

They have over 9,000 titles.

So whether you're into leadership, psychology, or negotiation, they've got you covered.

Personally, I love to learn about a wide variety of topics, not just negotiation, but psychology, history and communication.

All of that knowledge works together to help me to be the negotiator that I am today.

If you've been meaning to dive into the frameworks we discuss here every week, Blinkist is the fastest way to get those core insights, while you're driving to work or at the gym.

It turns your extra time into a real advantage, helping you to show up to every difficult conversation with more clarity and courage.

If you want to start learning faster and showing up with more confidence, this is the tool for you.

Go to Blinkist.com slash Kwame to start your free trial.

That's Blinkistcom slash Kwame, the better.

The attorney will also help you develop strategies for your business right.

And put you in contact with people, assist you in your business.

Love it.

Yes.

Listen, so listeners, you know, I'm a lawyer too.

And I really wanted to start off there, because one of the biggest frustrations is when somebody comes to me.

They're way down the line in a business challenge and they're like hey, can you fix this problem?

I'm like, what do you, I'm not a magician.

How do you expect me to solve this problem efficiently at this point?

If you would have talked to me a few months, or maybe even a few years in advance, we could have avoided a lot of this.

So the simple rule to follow, if you ask yourself, do I need, should I talk to a lawyer?

The answer is yes. just to make sure you can get your ducks in a row.

So I wanted to make sure we started off there because a lot of people miss it.

And that could be one of the biggest strategic mistakes you make when it comes to the business negotiations and conflicts that you find yourself in.

Absolutely.

And I think lawyers, we have gotten a bad rap in popular culture, you know, to some extent.

And it is unfortunate because I think what we do is it's extremely important.

It saves people time, money and a lot of ways stress as well, because i worked for a long time in the courts as a court attorney to a judge and i got to see some business cases up close in litigation and oftentimes the parties involved were family members who were suing each other, whether it be like a father so the son or vice versa, or daughters and mother.

And when the case gets to that point, it gets very acrimonious and very personal and relationships are destroyed.

And a lot of times dispute could have been avoided had an attorney been consulted at the initial stage.

So, Kwame, I could really go with you.

The sooner you consult with an attorney, the better.

Yeah, love it.

Great.

Let's set the stage for the listeners here.

We're going to focus this episode on two different things.

First, we're going to talk about using negotiation and communication skills to build relationships.

And then we're going to talk about using negotiation and conflict resolution skills to resolve conflicts.

Once you get to that point in business,

And really this is going to be using your life Joanne, as kind of like a case study for how the holistic approach to communication that you have could be beneficial, not only when it comes to working with clients and having conversations and building trust and building relationships, but also on the flip side.

If we get to the point where we have to negotiate a business deal or negotiate a deal in litigation, then those skills still come to the fore.

So when we're talking about relationship building, as it relates to you more on the entrepreneurial side because you're a business owner, can you talk a little bit about your approach to building meaningful relationships for entrepreneurial purposes?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, as an entrepreneur, it's very important for me to reach out to other professionals and build relationships, for a number of reasons.

Number one is as a small law firm owner.

I have to get out there so other professionals can know about me and my firm, what I do.

And if they want to refer work to me at some point, they'll be able to refer work to me.

There's a saying that people refer work to people that they know and trust, right?

So if someone doesn't know you and trust you, they're not going to refer work to you.

So that's why it's important for me to get out there and meet people. so that they can know me.

Another purpose meeting people and building relationships is as an attorney.

I work with other attorneys.

I have cases against other attorneys.

And oftentimes when I'm negotiating in a matter, It always helps if I know the attorney on the other side, as opposed to not knowing the attorney.

When you know the attorney and you have a relationship with that attorney, you're able to potentially work out a resolution much faster than you would against an attorney that you don't know.

So it's very important to build those relationships.

And another area that it comes into play is with the judiciary, with judges.

I network a lot with judges, get to know them.

They get to know me so that when I'm in front of them in a court representing my client, I have instant credibility Because they know me, they know what I'm about, they know my professional character.

So that helps as well.

And for negotiation purposes.

It also helps when you know the judge, because the judge will be able to help you facilitate some kind of resolution of the matter with the other side much faster.

You, this is great.

This is a strong start.

So first, we have three purposes for the communication that you utilize to build relationships.

First we have referrals.

Next we have when you work with or against other attorneys, and then also we have when you find yourself in front of a judge, the judiciary.

It builds credibility.

So really, this is a little bit of foreshadowing here, but you, You can see how these negotiations, when you think about it philosophically, there's almost no beginning and no end.

So when you think about an attorney, you might meet at a networking event.

You meet them, you chat, you hit it off.

Okay, great.

Let's grab coffee.

Okay, great.

We might do that every year.

And then three years later, you find yourself negotiating against them in a case a lot smoother, because even though they're on the other side, you have that foundational relationship, and then you do the same thing with the judges.

We have to recognize that bias is bi-directional.

We think about it just in terms of oh, bias is bad, that's a negative thing.

Trust is nothing more than a positive bias.

And once you start to build that credibility and trust when you are in front of a decision maker like a judge, that goes a long way in making you a lot more persuasive and impactful As an advocate too.

So recognizing here that, Joanne, you're playing relationship chess.

You're using these meaningful and true, authentic and ethical relationships that you're building to put yourself in a better position professionally to build the business and then serve your clients at a higher level.

Absolutely.

As an attorney, and especially as a law firm owner, it's all about relationships.

You cannot operate business or a law firm, in my opinion, in a silo.

You have to have people around you that you can rely on, not only for referrals, but also to give out referrals right.

So when clients come to me and I resolve an issue for them, oftentimes they need other services.

They may need an insurance person.

They may need a financial advisor. assistance of the CPA.

When I have folks in my Rolodex that I have a relationship with, that I know what they're about and their professional standing.

I'm able to refer my clients to them with the knowledge that my clients will be taken care of right.

As opposed to just referring my clients to somebody that I don't know.

And they may end up being properly taken care of.

So having those relationships really is key.

I'm glad you brought that one up Joanne, because we don't often think about the value being the person who gives the referrals, not just receiving the referrals.

Because, like you said, if we have this trusting relationship and you build a great relationship with the client, then that person will trust you more, which means they'll be more vulnerable with you and they'll share more about their lives, their personal life and their professional life.

And if you have a really robust network now, you can make those connections because you've done the same thing when you're networking and building relationships with other lawyers and other professionals.

So you actually get to know what's beyond their LinkedIn page and beyond their website.

Is this person a good person?

Do I feel comfortable giving this person a referral?

And so by having all of these relationships, you gather enough information to be a good referral source to other people.

And then we take it to the next step, All right.

If I'm referring people to you, it triggers reciprocity, which makes it more likely for you to refer to me too.

And so again, we're seeing this flywheel effect starting to grow where, as you deepen your relationships and improve your communication skills in order to deepen your relationships, there are going to be surprising benefits that will reverberate throughout your career.

Absolutely.

And for me, when I go into relationships relationships, professional relationships or otherwise I go with the idea that givers gain right.

First and foremost in my mind is trying to figure out what I can do to make that person's life better or easier right,

I'm not looking to say anything from them.

I'm just looking to figure out exactly what I can do to make that person's business or life better.

That could be through a referral.

That could be through some advice that I give to them.

It could be through a connection that I make between them and another professional.

And then when you do that, when you put yourself out there and you go in with the giver's mentality, like you were saying Kwame, naturally that person is going to want to reciprocate that your efforts.

They're going to want to do things for you as well without you asking.

So I think that's absolutely correct.

Making those connections going there with the giver's game mentality, that selfish mentality that I'm just going to in there and try to figure out what I can gain from this person.

When you do that, the relationship becomes very impersonal.

It becomes fake, really, and it's not really something that can last.

But when you go in there and you invest time and you try to figure out what you can do to help people, I think those relationships last longer and they are more professionally and personally rewarding.

Bingo.

So right.

And let's focus on that mentality, too, because it's not just about the skill set.

It's about the mindset.

How do we go into these?

So you could listen to this whole episode with me and Joanne showing these skills, and you could say, all right, I'm going to do this.

I'm going to do that.

I'm going to do this.

And you can be very tactical with it and you'll get a modicum of success.

But it pales in comparison to the amount of success you'll get if you genuinely care about people and you're just focused on making their lives better.

I love how simple that is.

How can I make your life better?

So you're not saying, how can I get more money?

How can I extract more value from you?

How can I position my law firm?

That's not it at all.

How can I make your life better?

And we're broadening it.

It's not just life in terms of your business life.

You're saying life in general, because once you start to know somebody on a deeper level, these little things that might seem almost trivial to you could be life-changing for them.

So I have this personal problem.

Oh, well, I know this therapist.

Here's a referral, right?

Something little, but you have that network and you can be really generous.

And then eventually it comes back to you, but that is not the ultimate goal.

And that's what makes it work.

Yes.

And this idea of making people's life better is something that I also emphasize in my practice in regards to my relationship with my clients.

In my law firm we strive to give the client's three times the value of the fees that they pay to us.

So when a client comes to me, my mission is to make sure that the client is receiving value, that I'm making their life better.

Not only just solving their problem and calling it a day, but that I'm actually now solving the problem and giving them added value on top of that, because i think that's something that our clients are entitled to.

They're entitled to good service and they're entitled to an attorney who cares about them, not only within the context of the particular case and the fees that they're paying the attorney, but outside of that right And like you were saying Kwame, sometimes when a client comes to you with a legal issue, that client may also have a number of other issues that they're trying to resolve.

It is your job, as their counsel or as a professional working with them, to figure out exactly what those problems are and how you can assist them in those particular areas.

In my firm when we have a case because our cases tend to be the litigation cases it tends to have an end.

And at the end of that relationship, the client attorney relationship usually ends.

But for us, when that case ends, we have a call with our clients.

And we're trying to find out exactly how the litigation has impacted their lives along the cases going on.

And we're trying to figure out what other issues are they experiencing.

Are they buying a home?

Or the car needs to be repaired.

Do they need estate planning?

And when we find out what these issues are, we go into our Rolodex and we figure out exactly who's the best person to refer the client to resolve that issue.

Brilliant.

And I love that you're expanding your perspective on what that value is.

As lawyers, we might just get really focused on the legal side or the financial side.

How can I get you three times the value?

Okay, what are my fees?

How do I multiply that?

But when you think about it holistically, we are whole people.

So yeah, we're meant to serve on the legal side and it'll touch on the finances for sure.

But mental health is important.

Peace of mind is important.

When my clients work with them, I want them to feel safe when they work with me.

I want them to feel a peace of mind. that somebody has their back, right?

So once you start to think about what is valuable to them now, you can be a lot more creative about how you deliver that three X multiplier on those investments.

Absolutely.

It really goes to focusing on the person holistically, not just for the particular transaction between you at the moment, but on a more holistic level, to figure out exactly who they are, what's important to them, what they're focusing on, what their goals are, what they want to achieve.

One of the things that I do when I have a consultation with my clients is to ask them exactly what it is that they're trying to achieve in the case.

Because litigation, like I mentioned earlier, is not a process that people want to go through, because it's just not a fun process, because it's time consuming, it's costly.

And it could be emotionally training.

So, as someone, if you got to the point where you feel like you need to go to litigation, we have to figure out exactly what the goal is.

What do you want to achieve?

Are you trying to get repaid for litigation, the contract that was breached?

Are you trying to get that money back?

Are you trying to prevent the other party from doing something?

A lot of my cases are some of them are partnership disputes.

Sometimes one of the partners has locked out the other partner out of the account, stolen money from the business account, so we have to try to stop them from doing that.

So we have to figure out exactly what is it you want to do and when we know what your goals are, we were able to take the steps to make sure that we achieve those goals, and I counsel my clients that it's always important to try to find a resolution before going to court.

It's always important to try to find some kind of negotiated outcome where both sides can walk away and just move forward.

Sometimes, if necessary, maintain that business relationship, right?

Because if you can't maintain the relationship could be beneficial to both parties.

Whereas if you go through litigation and the matter gets very acrimonious when the case ends, that relationship also ends.

And sometimes it's not just a business relationship, it's also the personal relationship.

Like I mentioned before, I've seen families broken up over dispute over money, so what that outcome is something that i emphasize my clients to do.

I think this is a perfect time to transition into the second half of the episode, where we're talking about the negotiation skills that you utilize in litigation, And this is a great starting point, because you start off with the question what's the goal?

A lot of times as lawyers or people in general, we assume that we understand what the problem is.

A person presents with a problem.

It creates a set of assumptions in our mind.

And we say, either based on what I've seen before or based on what I would do or feel like in this situation, this is probably what they want to happen.

But there is a little bit of embedded arrogance when we just go on our assumptions and we don't check our assumptions too.

So I love the fact that we're starting off with that question.

What is your goal so we can advocate for them more effectively?

And let's take a little bit of a fun spin on this.

So, Jo-Am, can you describe a situation where a goal of a client that you had was surprising to you?

Yes, I definitely can.

So, as I mentioned before, I deal with a lot of businesses primarily small and medium-sized businesses and litigation issues.

And sometimes there are partnerships who have gotten to a point where the partnership is going to be dissolved.

And when a client comes to me who is a partner in the business, sometimes their goal can be surprising, because they're not just looking to get money or to prevent the other partner from doing something that's harming the business.

They're just looking to get some kind of revenge.

Or they're sticking to almost like they want to have their justice be rectified by the court system.

And a lot of times I have to counsel clients that if you're looking for revenge, you're not going to find that in justice system.

If you're looking for justice, you may find it, but you may not.

The court system sometimes is not really about who's right.

It's really about who can prove that whatever legal theory that they're asserting is the one that the judge should go with.

So I always counsel clients that if you're looking for those two things revenge and justice to be very mindful that you may not get them.

But if you're looking for money in a business dispute that I can almost certainly can help you with, if you're looking to get some kind of compensation for your rights that have been violated, that can help you with justice.

And for revenge those two things are rare in our system.

Yeah, i'm glad you said that, because for a number of reasons.

First, i need to know what it is that you want me to do, because if it's a situation where somebody wants revenge, They might push you to do things that we can talk about the ethics.

I think that's the obvious one, but also the strategy too, because you might say, as a lawyer, there's a more efficient and practical way to approach this, but they want to go about it in the most painful and embarrassing way.

That seems illogical and irrational until you realize that, based on their goal of hurting the other side, that is actually the most logical approach.

It's probably not the nice thing to do, but at least we understand where it's coming from.

And so it allows you to set firm boundaries up front.

Oh, since I know that it seems like you want to hurt this person, I want to let you know this is what a realistic expectation is going forward, because you might do a perfect job per what the law says, and make the right strategic legal decisions in the negotiation and during the litigation process.

But they might still feel dissatisfied because their goal was different than just solving their financial or legal problems.

And so by clarifying that and setting expectations and setting firm boundaries when appropriate now, it makes it more likely that you can be aligned going forward.

Or it might be a decision point where you say I might not be the lawyer for you, but I can get you in touch with somebody who could help.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's very important, like you said, to be clear on what you're trying to achieve.

And sometimes hurting the other party, and getting something, a result that is efficient and time saving, are not mutually exclusive right.

You can get a result that can achieve both, but you just have to make sure that you're going about it the right way.

So you have to be open to listening to your attorney, right, to getting counsel.

A lot of clients.

They come to me with this idea that they're the one that's going to solve the issue.

End up in a situation where I have to ask them, then why did you come to me, right?

If you didn't want to actually listen to my counsel and trying to work collaboratively to reach a solution, you didn't need to come to me right.

So that's very important.

I have experience.

I've been doing this for quite a while.

I worked in the courts.

I've seen the issues.

I know what arguments in a particular case are going to fly, what arguments are not going to fly.

Has seen different scenarios.

And so we know how to approach certain matters, but you have to be open to that advice.

And if you listen to us, sometimes you can get both the results you want in terms of monetary reward, but you can also, if you want to hurt the other person's purse, you can also achieve that as well.

Definitely.

And this outlines one of the most overlooked parts of these types of tough negotiations for lawyers, because from the outside, looking in, it seems like the tough negotiations are with opposing counsel.

And of course, we do have those tough negotiations with opposing counsel.

That's First, we have to negotiate with our client.

We have to figure out what their goals are, and then we might need to have that negotiation to persuade them to shift their perspective and perhaps adopt more realistic or practical goals.

And then when it comes to the strategy, we are the people who went to law school, passed the bar exam, have been practicing for years.

But at the end of the day, we work for them and we can't do anything without their authorization.

So, even though we might know specifically what their appropriate strategy might be, we still need to get the green light from the client.

And that's a tough conversation on its own.

It can be.

And that's why it's important for us, as attorneys, to establish that credibility with your client early on in the process, right.

To make sure that, to have a clear understanding where we're coming from, what our processes are, what we want to help them achieve in a particular case, so that we get to a point where we have to go to them and advocate a particular idea or position, they're more open to receiving that advice.

And I don't mean to go back to our first topic Of getting to know people, but that's kind of relates to negotiation as well, because the more that you get to know people, the more that you get to understand what makes a person do certain things, what makes them tick, what makes them happy.

It really helps you not only with opposing counsel, but with your client.

And also the more you invest in that relationship by making sure that you're trustworthy, by making sure that the client understands your character, By making sure that you present as being professional, the more credibility that you have for your client and the more you'll be able to help the negotiation move in a constructive way.

I love this because this is the sticking to the fundamentals of relationship building and why it's so critically important for the foundation of the negotiation.

We can make these difficult conversations easier just by laying a strong relationship foundation with the client.

Let's take two different scenarios.

So I say one thing to this client.

And I don't have that foundation of trust and credibility.

And then I say the exact same thing to the client, but I do.

It works in one situation, when I have the credibility and the relationship, and it doesn't with the other one because they don't trust me as much.

They're at a heightened emotional state.

They're more likely to be skeptical and critical.

But if they already trust you, then you could win this negotiation with your client months in advance just by treating them with respect and caring about them and taking the time to learn about them and establishing that relationship.

So this is a critical strategic element that we often overlook because we're so focused on just being good lawyers, knowing the law and negotiating well with opposing counsel.

Right.

And you can be a good lawyer and not have good people skills.

And I think, without the people skills, that can serve as a handicap, especially when it comes to your clients.

One of the things that I do when I first check my client, I make sure that I send them a client bill of rights which outlines the rights that they have in relation to their relationship with me.

It states clearly that I have to treat them with respect, just as you have to treat me with respect.

It states that I have to return their phone calls and emails in a timely manner.

It outlines what the relationship is going to be.

And I also give them a copy of my firm's policies that clearly outlines how my firm interacts with the client, what expectations are, so that they know what the boundaries of the relationship is.

And, like you were saying Kwame, that serves as the foundation that we can then build on.

Pull it on so that when we get to the hard stuff of negotiation of numbers, which money should be accepted, what offers should be made because I have that foundation of credibility, like you were saying, I'm able to work with the client in a more efficient way to potentially resolve the matter.

I love it.

I'm glad that we started at that point because it's so easy to overlook it.

And now, when you talk about the relationship that you have with opposing counsel, there's a really interesting tension, because there are going to be times where we don't know the other side at all.

And there are going to be times where we do know the other side.

We might be friends with it, with the other side.

And I think that can be almost jarring for our clients.

I'm going to war.

You're my soldier.

And now you are bro-hugging the soldier on the other side.

Whose side are you on?

So we understand that it's better to have a good relationship with the other side.

But at the same time we have to recognize that it might be hard for our clients to really appreciate that, especially when they're in a tough position.

And so how do you treat your client with respect while still having a strong relationship with the other side, striking that balance?

Yeah, absolutely.

So the bar in New York, and I'm sure it's for you as well in Ohio, the bar is quite small.

It's a small community.

And Because of the nature of legal practice, you end up going to a lot of events.

You may be involved with your local bar association.

And so attorneys run into each other.

They see each other.

And I was saying earlier, I do a lot of networking.

I'm involved in different organizations.

And so I meet a lot of attorneys.

I see them in court all the time.

If you go to court, you'll see the litigators constantly.

And so by nature, that you build a relationship with them and you get to know them.

Now respect your question about how do I treat our relationship with the attorneys in regards to respecting my client.

So I am bound by the rules of professional conduct to serve my clients and best interests.

That's something I'm bound to as an attorney.

So, when my clients retain me, my sole goal in the life of the case is to make sure that.

So, as I was saying, my sole goal is to make sure that I represent their best interests, regardless of what my relationship with opposing counsel may be.

I am bound by... professional rules of New York State to make sure that I do that.

So I try to do that regardless of that relationship with the other side.

Now, with the benefits of having a good relationship.

Where the attorney comes into play is when you're negotiating.

It's easier to negotiate with somebody that you don't know when you're trying to reach an outcome.

But if we get to where we cannot reach an outcome that's beneficial to both parties, then we're going to go to litigation and that's perfectly fine.

Once we get to that point, it's no longer my friend.

On the other side, it's opposing counsel, and that's what it's going to be.

And so I'm able to make that separation between the personal relationship and the professional relationship, which is governed by the rules of professional conduct of New York.

Definitely.

And I think it's really good to have that clarity both within yourself but also articulated to the client too.

So in your mind you know OK, I'm friends with this person that my relationship with opposing counsel doesn't change unless they do something unethical to change it in this process, of course,

But the relationship doesn't change.

But I also recognize that right now I'm ethically bound to do a job for my client.

And so now this I know when to put the friendship aside side and then focus on the job and then flex and go back and forth between the two.

And then what I've done in the past is I've explained that to the client and say hey listen, I work for you.

And so I'm always negotiating on your behalf.

You might see some warm interactions between me and opposing counsel, but I want you to know this is because I had a relationship with them in the past.

That actually makes it easier during the negotiation process, but I'm always focused on you and getting your goals accomplished.

And just articulating that helps to avoid any misunderstandings going forward.

But it also helps me because I can say to myself all right, I know which version of Kwame which are all authentic.

Kwame the lawyer, Kwame the negotiator, they're all the same.

It's all me, but it has a different focus and a different tone attached to it.

And that clarity can help.

And when you're thinking about your litigations.

Once you get to that point, I think this would be helpful to paint a picture to the audience.

What percentage of your cases end up settling before actually being completed in trial?

Yeah, that's a good question.

And that's something that the public doesn't know, right?

In litigation, in business litigation, around 98%, if not more, of the cases settle before trial.

So negotiation is built in then to that process because, like i was saying, go to a trial.

It's very costly, it's time consuming and it's not guaranteed that you're going to get an outcome that's in your favor.

And so that's why cases settle before we get to that point and judges are aware of that as well, because a lot of cases tried in front of a judge what's called a bench trial, as opposed to a trial by a jury, where you have a jury of your peers making a determination.

So those cases are usually tried by judges and the judges are trained to resolve matters.

They're trained to resolve matters and they are predisposed to trying to resolve dispute.

In business litigation cases it's often money that's involved, so it's a lot easier To resolve.

This matter is if the parties can agree on the number.

So the majority of the cases that I deal with settle before we go to trial.

Yeah, I think it could be really shocking to people.

And even for me, because I know this is still wild to think about.

Because, even though we call it litigation and there is that process of litigation and everything, it's always going alongside, in many cases, with the negotiation process as well.

And so you're constantly positioning yourself throughout the litigation process to achieve a better settlement in the majority of these situations.

So I think it's important for the clients to know that going in, but also for us as lawyers to make sure that we keep that in mind too.

We have to, as much as possible, maintain a solid working relationship with opposing counsel because, at the end of the day, if we do settle which statistically most likely we will some level of relationship foundation is going to make that process a lot more efficient.

Yes, absolutely.

And also having that relationship with opposing counsel is helpful in not only trying to resolve the matter, but also opposing counsel as an attorney sometimes serve as a referral source to you.

I've gotten cases from attorneys I've dealt with in the past and who are so appreciative about how fervently and how effectively I've represented my client that they themselves referred someone to me.

Because they knew that if that person retained me, I'd be able to effectively represent them.

So having those relationships and being professional and providing value to your client three times value to your client is something that helps you not only in the case at hand but also in the future, with not only the client referring cases to you, opposing counsel referring cases to you.

It works in tandem that way.

I love this.

This is great.

And listen before you go.

I want to wrap up with a quick conversation on leverage and the utilization of leverage in these types of litigation disputes.

And so first let's talk about how you would define or describe leverage in this context, and then how you go about using it in your negotiations too.

Yes.

So leverage is something that gives you a leg up, to use a common term.

It gives you a leg up in the negotiation because the party at the other side is concerned that whatever you have that gives you a leg up is going to work to their detriment.

And so that gives them an incentive to try to settle matter as opposed to not.

That's how I would define leverage. in my view and in litigation leverage can be a lot of different things a leverage can be filing a lawsuit most people don't want to have to answer a lawsuit because like i was saying because it's costly it's time consuming so the potential to file a lawsuit can be leverage Another thing could be filing some kind of restraining order to prevent the party to have access to certain things like bank accounts, have access to companies' email accounts or social media accounts, those things can serve as leverage.

Another thing that can serve as leverage, once you get into the litigation process, are what's called discovery.

It can serve as leverage.

Discovery means you get access to the other side's documents, including communications, any sensitive information that they have, any evidence of wrongdoing that they have.

You get access to that.

You can use it in the case.

And so that can serve as leverage as well.

And the prospect of going to trial.

That can serve as leverage on either party because trial could be a very difficult process because, just the nature of it, it's a very anxiety-inducing process having to go to trial.

So those things can serve as leverage.

This is great.

I really love this.

And I like your definition.

Leverage gives you a leg up in your negotiation.

Yeah, leverage is a force that you can use to compel the other side to give up concessions.

The more leverage you have, the more you can get.

The less you have, the less power you have, and the more you're going to have to give.

And so you want to always approach these negotiations and where you are maximizing leverage for yourself and minimizing leverage for the other side.

And sometimes that requires you to take action in these cases.

So filing a lawsuit, essentially we move from us trying to work things out to saying I'm going to have the court Help us to work things out.

Now you're going to have to deal with that.

You're going to have to respond.

That can give you leverage, especially if they don't want to go to trial.

Filing a restraining order, you're restricting them from engaging in certain behaviors.

By limiting the things they can do, you're giving yourself leverage and taking leverage away from them.

Discovery leverage can come from information.

The more information i get, the more leverage i have, because then i could use that information in either the negotiation but also the trial.

And the fear of me using that information in the trial is what gives me leverage during the negotiation.

And then the prospect of trial.

We cannot forget the power of fear.

And it's not that we're doing this because we are hurtful people who want to make people scared.

It's just recognizing that sometimes we have to take action, and then fear will be a byproduct of the action that we take in order to meet our needs and solve our problems.

And people don't like to litigate.

Some litigators don't even like to litigate.

And so listeners, think about your day.

Think about your week.

Think about your month.

I know you're probably thinking, I'm busy.

Imagine how busy you'll be if there is, like this, force coming at you and you have these dates on the calendar and you know you have no choice but to address it.

Like that fear of litigation, it's heavy.

That matters.

And the more comfortable somebody is in the process, the more leverage they have, because they're okay with staying in the process.

Whereas the person who is fearful of the process is going to be trying to find ways out.

And sometimes that's through giving up concessions in the negotiation.

So I love this recitation of leverage.

It's something that honestly, I think has fallen out of favor in negotiation discussions.

But just because it's fallen out of favor of people willing to talk about it doesn't mean that leverage has lost its efficacy.

And so we always have to keep this in mind as we go throughout our negotiations.

And i think that was good kind of rundown of what leverage is and it's very helpful and that's why most cases settle, because one party has more leverage than the other and the other party, if they have a good attorney, is going to advise them to settle.

Sometimes the other side doesn't have a good attorney and you end up going to trial and you end up losing that trial And you end up having to pay more money, not only to the other party but the attorney's fees.

So it's very important to have good, experienced attorneys on your side.

Like Carmi and myself been through different scenarios in these matters and kind of can advise you appropriately.

I love this.

Joanne, I appreciate this, my friend.

This was an awesome breakdown.

And before you go, I want to make sure that you can shout out your firm and what the best way to get in touch with you would be.

Absolutely.

And Kwame, thank you so much for having me today.

This is a really great podcast, great platform.

I really appreciate your time.

So my law firm is the List Me Law LLC.

We are based in Brooklyn, New York.

And what we do is we help small business owners fight for what's theirs in court.

And if you retain us, if you have a litigation matter, a business litigation matter, we'll advise you appropriately.

We'll try to reach a settlement like we've been discussing here today that's beneficial for you.

But if we can't settle, we are prepared to go to trial. to make sure that your rights are protected.

So again, Alyssa Villal LLC, based in Brooklyn, New York, and we'll help you fight for what's yours.

Thank you.

Appreciate it, brother.

Thank you.

All right, my man.

Thanks.

You too.

We'll see you next time. offering deeper insight and another lens to help you connect the dots.

Here's the third and final installment of this masterclass series.

Kasia, thanks for joining us again, my friend.

Kwame, nice to see you.

Always a pleasure.

Yes, likewise.

So, for those of you who might have missed your previous episodes, just give yourself a quick introduction and then we'll start chatting.

Yes.

My pleasure to be on the podcast with you, Kwame.

My name is Kasia Jagodzinska.

I'm an international negotiation expert, author of several books on the topic of negotiations, the latest one, The Financial Times Guide to High-Impact Negotiations.

I specialize in multi-party international negotiations, intercultural.

I'm a professor based in Switzerland and I'm also a trader and a business consultant, coaching and mentoring and training executives from all over the world.

Basically,

And negotiation.

Helping others, empowering them also from the psychological perspective, is my passion.

Yes, this is great.

So listeners, it's always a great opportunity when Kasia's here.

It's hard to find somebody with a resume as long as Kasia's is right now.

And then we'll put links to all of her books in the description, if you're interested in checking that out.

So today in our chat, this is going to be pretty open.

And for me, one of the beautiful things about the podcast is being able to talk to cool people and friends, and then we just happen to record it.

We're having these conversations all the time, so we might as well share it.

So today we're just going to talk about the future of negotiation and communication, what we can do to stay on top of it, to make sure that we're communicating effectively, but also anything we could do to prepare for any upcoming changes.

So Kasia, for you, when you think about the future of negotiation and communication, what are some of the things that come to mind for you?

I think that the first thing that comes to my mind is the myth of multitasking that teaches us Basically, the habit of losing focus and losing interest in the person that is in front of us.

I think that's becoming very dangerous.

When I watch people now at airports in public spaces students, MBA students, executives everyone is on their mobile device.

So no one is really paying attention to the people around them.

I think that lowers our social observation skills, our interpersonal skills.

I think that lowers also emotional intelligence.

I see it as a dangerous trend.

Now, don't get me wrong.

I think that technology is great.

I think that we can benefit from a lot of developments.

However, my personal opinion is that.

AI cannot compete with the human factor.

It can make certain processes perhaps more understandable, more speedy, more digestible, but I think it cannot replace the genuine process human interaction person.

And I always say two things about negotiations.

I've been repeating this so many times that it starts with you, your self-empowerment, how you feel.

And it's primarily a human to human interaction and human to human, our emotions, our feelings.

It's also psychology, its ability to communicate those feelings.

And what we need, our interests, our needs, our motives, and also to understand.

I think there's a deficit of understanding and trust that we're experiencing economically and politically as well.

Globally, unfortunately.

I agree with everything that you said.

And as I look at the notes of everything that you mentioned, I'm realizing wow, there's a lot that is competing for our attention and pulling down the level of communication that we're having just interpersonally.

And one of the things that you mentioned that I don't think is mentioned enough is the social observation skill that we are lacking.

So can you go a little bit deeper into that and just start off by what do you mean by social observation skills?

And then we can go into those examples.

I mean simply the ability to recognize the person and to realize that the negotiation position or what they're asking for.

I like to refer that to an iceberg.

It's what we see the tip of the iceberg above the water, basically.

But very often we fail to understand or we misinterpret certain signals in body language or Also, we're doing quite a lot of negotiations virtually now and we fail to understand some of the words, understand the context.

Also, in the translation, a lot of things are locked in the translation.

But this could be all facilitated if we cared to pay attention.

And that is not something that we can do on the spot.

It's something, it's a habit, I would say.

It's a habit of functioning in society that we are losing Because everyone is preoccupied basically, with a screen, a screen that is emotionless, a screen that does not provide a lot of feedback, does not provide any social cues as well, and does not really teach us how to interact with people.

And then when we interact, we be clumsy or uncomfortable or stressed and depressed.

It makes it difficult for people to connect.

That's my opinion.

Yeah, I think your opinion happens to be a fact as well.

You're spot on.

When you think about the term people skills, we're not talking about people talents.

We're talking about people skills, meaning that these are built over time.

And when you start to pull back from interacting with people, then you start to lose some of those skills.

And so, like you said, Human interaction, it's a habit.

But as we engage in the habit, we build our skills every single time.

And when we're focusing so much of our attention to technology and to screens and those type of things, when we're now in a situation where we're interacting with another human right in front of us, we're missing out on some really really vital skill.

Exactly.

And I'm trying not to miss out on what you're saying, but I'm also trying to take notes.

And because you said some very, very interesting things that got me thinking about how it used to be, how people used to gather around the table earlier around the fire.

Share stories, share the family history, share certain myths.

And that would create a sense of trust between people, a sense of bonding security that triggered safety as well, a feeling of community, a feeling of belonging.

And now we are losing.

We are losing a lot of those traditions.

We are losing also the ability to connect. generation to generation to learn from each other.

My mom always used to say, learn on my mistakes.

I'm not delusional.

It's not possible for anyone to learn on the other's mistakes.

But at least we can make some observations for ourselves going forward.

I think we have to experiment.

But in order to experiment, we have to dive in to that society as well too.

Behind the mask basically, or behind the screen in this sense, because I feel it's not just a mask that we are wearing in society now.

It's also the screen or the image on social media, for example, that create a false identity for a lot of people and then a lot of complexes for the ones that are observing and think this is the perfect reality.

And I have to function in that reality.

And if I don't, then I feel like an outsider and the cycle closes basically.

No, you're spot on.

And what's really interesting, too, is when we think about it, yes, this is the societal challenge.

We are missing out on social cues.

We're not connecting to each other in the exact same way.

But also, it provides us with an opportunity to really get ahead in the marketplace.

Because few people are really honing in on this skill and sharpening the sword as it relates to human interaction.

But when you talk to somebody who's actually a good conversationalist, who can ask empathetic questions and actually listens in a meaningful way and is focused on you as the speaker, it feels completely different.

And it's a really easy way to stand out when it comes to the relationships you're forming with other people.

Definitely.

And Kwame.

I'm not meaning to sugarcoat anything, but that's the reason that I keep coming back on your podcast, because I feel that, As one of the few people you actually are genuinely interested, it feels great connecting with you.

It feels great talking to you.

You give the gift of attention, which is becoming more and more rare in today's society, unfortunately.

And speaking of which...

Very often when I'm in executive courses high impact leadership courses, management courses and so on executive programs for talented individuals who start their career or want to take their career to the next level sitting there or, very often, training those people.

I have the impression that we've taught people all the strategies, all the tools, all the techniques, all the tactics.

And now what we need is to teach people back how to be people, how to function back in society.

It's like my dad always says, all these young guys who go pumping themselves up in the gym.

He says, my generation didn't do that.

We just went in the garden.

We'd cut some trees.

We'd mow the grass.

We'd cut some branches.

And that would be our fitness routine.

And now people need an artificial routine for everything that they're doing.

I'm not saying don't go to the gym as a takeaway from our podcast.

No.

I was saying, do not overcomplicate some things that should be natural that are not easy.

Natural does not mean that they're easy, but at least do not impede the progress that is the spirit or the fuel of the humankind.

Because a machine or technology can never replace us.

You're so right.

And I love the point that you made about the gym and working out, because back in the day, working out just happened as a result of existing as a person.

And now you're right.

We have to force ourselves to do it in order to stay in shape.

And really what I've recognized is that as we've developed in society and developed more technologies, essentially what we're trying to do.

I mean, we are animals.

Humans are animals.

We're social primates, right?

Every advancement we make, we're trying to make ourselves less that animal which has pros and cons, right.

Because I can get in my car and drive places.

In the past, I would walk.

That's very convenient.

But at the same time, it comes sometimes to a detriment to my health.

And when we think about the technology we've created to connect digitally, this is great.

I can connect with hundreds of thousands of people all around the world.

With me in Switzerland and you in the U.S.?

?

Exactly.

But at the same time, now a lot of times I'm opting.

I'm choosing to engage in people via text instead of getting up and meeting in person.

Sometimes Whitney and I might be in the next room and we'll text each other.

Instead of getting up and I'm just sitting there like don't I do podcasts about this problem all the time.

Right.

So we have to be mindful, just like we put our bodies in the gym.

We have to put our brains and our social skills in the gym as well, too.

So we have to be more mindful about creating these opportunities to engage with each other in a meaningful way, because if we don't, these skills will atrophy.

Definitely.

I think the point of our discussion is realization and bringing some things out into the light.

It's not to go to extremes to say that technology is bad or technology is great.

It's to reap the benefits, but also with the awareness of what we can lose by also exploiting some of the benefits.

I think that's the point of our conversation here.

Absolutely.

And one of the things that you mentioned was really interesting.

You were talking about artificial intelligence.

And I know there's a lot of concern out there when it comes to what does it mean for human society and what does our future look like, and things like that.

And I like the point that you made about that human to human connection still being irreplaceable.

Can you go a little bit deeper into that, too?

Yes, you said that humans, we are primarily very much connected to the animal world.

We are part of nature as well.

And we are a collective breed, I would say.

The humankind is primarily collective.

We function in society.

Isolation, as we've seen in the lockdown period, has not been easy on anyone, exactly because of this lack of social interaction.

A lot of people have become depressed in that time, which is proof we need that functioning.

We need that validation of our existence as part of nature, but also as part of the collective system.

And very often, if we refer only to technology or if we communicate via smiley faces or via acronyms, we cannot have, we narrow the expression of our emotions and our feelings.

And that becomes limiting, and that becomes a habit and that becomes, in the long run, something that can be detrimental as well.

I see this also, I'm not saying that I'm not doing this.

I see this also with a lot of my friends.

Sometimes Because of lack of time, we don't even write the full words.

We will write acronyms, or we will not even finish the sentence, or we'll just write three letters of the word, and then very, very easy.

And it becomes very mechanic very quickly.

And then, when we have a sit down or we have a dinner, All of a sudden you have to find new ways of communicating.

You have to find new words to relate.

Relate through words, relate through emotions, relate through communication.

The way we say things, what we say, the use of space and the gestures that we have.

A lot of those things will not function if they are limited only to the technology space.

This is really interesting.

That's something that I didn't consider.

The fact that, communicating with our smiley faces, our emojis and the short, brief messages that we're sending, we are, like you said, narrowing the expression of our emotions and feelings.

I think that's, first of all, really well articulated.

And second of all, a challenge that we might miss because we might still understand.

Yes.

That's exactly what I meant.

And that got me thinking about the book by Amy Cuddy, in which she mentions studies or research done on Botox which, by definition, Botox injections are done to make people more attractive, look younger, look more beautiful, and so on.

Turn back the time.

But very often what Botox does is it freezes the facial muscles.

So you cannot express your emotions or you cannot show those emotions.

And what that does is that the people who see you cannot relate to your emotions.

They cannot read you.

So it's a little bit like the technology when you cannot read.

And in the end, You do not become more attractive.

You become more beautiful, perhaps externally, but people are not attracted because they cannot see the path of life.

They cannot see the path or the story of your face, the story of your sadness happiness, of the experiences that you had.

And that's exactly the risk, as you said Kwame, just a moment ago, that we might think we are expressing ourselves, but to the other person it can be like a frozen Botox face that they cannot read the emotions behind those acronyms or emojis.

That's such a great point.

And I forgot about that Botox study.

It's really interesting because it shows how much those micro expressions we have, how much they really matter at a high level.

Because when you think about flashing of the eyebrows, your eyebrows going up, here's some people watching tips for the listeners.

So just watch people greet different people.

So you might hear somebody say, hey, how are you doing?

And then their eyebrows go up at the same time.

Okay, genuine like.

Then you might hear the exact same tone, but no eyebrow raise.

Hey, how are you doing?

Oh, the eyebrows didn't go up.

That one was fake.

They don't like that person as much.

Right.

But then, once you're able to see that, it can make you feel closer to the person because you understand them on a deeper level.

But the Botox freezes the face.

But now going back to the point that you're making about the emojis.

Okay, there's a smiley face emoji.

A million people use the same smiley face emoji.

But are we at the same level of happy?

Are we experiencing the exact same thing?

I mean, they're for the laughing a lot.

You have the cries, like the tears coming down the face to the side.

Okay, which version of happy?

Because I might use a different emoji and you might use a different one, but it carries different meanings and we don't recognize that distinction.

So that depth of connection is often lost because we feel obligated to communicate in very short messages and utilizing those emojis that mean different things to different people, but we don't explore what it really means to each other.

Definitely.

I fully agree with what you said about taking temperature or the lack of gradation of the smiley faces, for example.

But also you mentioned one very, very important factor, which is time, speed, you know, short.

Everything has to be instant.

It's an instant culture right now.

But it doesn't work like this.

To build trust between people, to build a bond, takes time.

There is no overstepping.

There is no amount of emojis that you can use to substitute the natural time lapse or the time flow that is needed for people to understand each other, to make mistakes, to argue, to engage in conflict.

I like to say that the mark of a good relationship is not how that people don't argue or that people do not have conflicts, but how they actually argue tells a lot about the state of the relationship, of their mutual respect or the communication, or how well they are able to understand each other, and so on.

So this shortness, which very often it's a benefit in business, or the speed, can also be an impediment when it comes to building a meaningful relationship.

Definitely.

And let's talk about that speed with the time that we have left too, because there might be instances where we recognize hey, Kasia said I should take some more time.

I should develop this relationship.

But then the other person...

They might say, no, no, no, this needs to be fast.

They're trying to be short.

How do you deepen the relationship if you're talking to somebody who hasn't listened to this podcast episode and they're trying to zip through all these conversations?

Zip through the conversations.

My interest would be why?

What is time for you?

What are you in a hurry for?

This is also an interesting conversation because, as I said before, where we both agreed that time is a gift,

So if you want to breeze through something very quickly, maybe it's not so important as well, or maybe the interests between the parties are misaligned.

It depends on cultures as well.

For example, In the Polish culture, the one who limits the time or makes you wait or manages the time is usually in a superior position.

That limitation of time or putting a mark on the time of availability is usually a sign of hierarchy of some level.

So my question would be why?

Why is speed such an important factor?

And I'm trying to think, I'm thinking of the deal making environment now more than the human interactions that very often, when deadlines are placed or people say this is the only time frame that we have,

The question is why?

Is it a tactic, or is it a bluff?

Or is it a power play, or is it something that exists objectively?

A limitation of the time.

So it's interesting to ask the question why, and to look at time closely as well.

Spoken like a true negotiator.

That one sounded pretty much like a manual negotiation manual.

I can go back to being a little bit more freestyle.

I think that comes across better.

Oh, no, it's a great response.

You're right, because whenever we're in a conversation and we notice something and we recognize it might be having an impact on the conversation, great negotiators go straight for it and get curious.

I noticed this.

Tell me what it is that I'm seeing.

And I think that's a really great question to ask, too, for a number of reasons.

Because if you just pause for a second and just say hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want to kind of move through this conversation quickly.

Is there some kind of...

Time crunch on your end.

It helps in a couple of ways because they might say, actually, yes, there is.

I have 15 minutes for this call and whatever it happens to be.

Right.

OK, great.

That's really good information for me to know.

So I'm not trying to ask them about their kids, as they're sweating bullets hoping that I get off subject.

Right.

So that's important.

But also it might provide them with a bit of a self-check too, because maybe they don't mean to rush through the conversation.

But then they stop and say, oh, well, Kwame is asking me if I'm in a rush.

I might be giving some vibes that show that this isn't very important.

Maybe I should slow it down.

So either way, it's still beneficial for the conversation and the relationship, I think.

And you know what else?

The third thing that it does it makes the person feel recognized, that you actually paid attention to them, that you're not just trying to push your point across, but you actually heard that there is something.

Sure, it can be a self-track.

I really like that perspective.

But in order to place a mirror, To look at the man in the mirror, as Michael Jackson said.

I like that song, by the way.

You have to feel comfortable and you have to feel secure enough to do that.

If you're in a defensive mode, if someone makes you feel unrecognized or threatened, you will not look in that mirror.

You will engage or channel your energy differently, toward being defensive and protective of your position, of your interests, but you will not be self-reflective in the same way.

This is really good.

And Kasia, you're showing off why you've been on the podcast now three times.

So thank you for this.

This is really insightful.

I know the listeners got a lot out of this.

And before you go, I want to give you an opportunity to shout out the books and how people can get in touch with you and work with you too.

Sure.

People can find me on LinkedIn.

And just type in my name, Kasia Jagodzinska.

And, as I mentioned before, the last book, The Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation is a great guide if you're looking for a reference to guide you through the whole process the strategy, the setup, the implementation, then the execution process, but also from a psychological perspective.

So not just the strategic part, but also the mindset.

What are some of the things that you should pay attention to?

What are the pitfalls?

It's equipped or it's made better by interviews with such names as Agent Gary Nessner and Jack Cambria and a lot of other experts Robert Cialdini and a lot of interviews with industry experts from all across the globe.

You can also check out my other books, Negotiation Booster or Negotiate Your Way to Success.

Love it.

Kasia, thanks again for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

It was a pleasure as always.

Thank you for the interesting insights, Kwame.

That's the power of a masterclass.

One topic, multiple lenses, and real-world application.

You've just heard three experts tackle the same issue in different ways, and now the question is what will you do with it?

Negotiation isn't theory.

It's practice.

It's self-awareness.

It's choosing courage over comfort.

So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation, because skill doesn't come from listening.

It comes from doing.

I'll catch you in the next one.

Hey, if you're still here, that means you really like this episode.

So why don't you leave us a review?

Five stars, please.

That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.

And now, I will catch you later.

[Mastering Negotiation: Insights from Global Experts]-[Build Trust First — or Lose the Deal: The Real Way to Win Negotiations]

📋 Summary

The Holistic Art of Negotiation: A Masterclass in Human Connection

The Shift from Tools to Mindset

The Legal and Strategic Foundation

Preserving Human Connection in a Digital Age

Key Takeaways for the Modern Negotiator

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Mastering Negotiation: Insights from Global Experts]-[Build Trust First — or Lose the Deal: The Real Way to Win Negotiations]

📋 Summary

The Holistic Art of Negotiation: A Masterclass in Human Connection

The Shift from Tools to Mindset

The Legal and Strategic Foundation

Preserving Human Connection in a Digital Age

Key Takeaways for the Modern Negotiator

Deep Learning with ListenLeap

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

ListenLeap Brings You Into Real Context Learning