I say, actually, you're greater because of failure.
The more you try, the more you fail.
The more also you succeed because you try.
Imagine if you try only one, two times, you may win one, two times.
But if I try 10 times, I fail five times, I win five times.
Who's the winner?
I'm winner.
I win more than you.
So it's like this.
Hey, guys, how you doing?
Hope you're having a good week so far.
My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee.
And this is my podcast. feel better, live more.
It's so easy to be inspired by success, but the real lessons often lie in what it took to get there.
After all, true strength is not just physical.
It's found in how we deal with change, manage adversity and embrace the unknown.
This week, I sit down with one of the most extraordinary athletes of our time, Safan Hassan.
Born in Ethiopia and raised in the Netherlands as a refugee, she has gone on to become a two-time world champion, an Olympic medalist and the holder of multiple European championship titles.
Her journey from refugee to Olympic and world champion has captivated the world.
And I would say that Stefan is celebrated not only for her versatility and achievements, but also for her spirit and and the inspiring way in which she approaches life.
In our conversation, we explore how growing up in Ethiopia and later seeking asylum in the Netherlands shaped her inner strength and outlook, the role that running has played in navigating life in a new country, and how it offered her focus, purpose and belonging.
Why failure, fear and self-doubt have been central to her journey and how she's learned to embrace them as essential parts of growth and performance.
How she continues to find joy in running despite the pressures of elite sports.
Why staying curious matters more to her than winning.
Why she sees rest, sleep and routine as forms of discipline that keep her grounded, and and how she has managed to let go of perfection and find peace with who she is.
You simply do not need to be an athlete to connect with Stefan's story.
It's a story of courage, faith, and relentless curiosity.
And her outlook on life is a beautiful example of what it means to stay rooted in who we are, even when life takes us far from where we began.
You're someone who has taken the running world by storm over the past few years.
And you must have experienced that there is a real outpouring of love for you all over the world.
Why do you think that is?
I think because everybody have seen people do just the same things.
For me when I'm running a kind of mix, I go up and down, sometimes around 50 100 metre marathon and people think they always thought oh, when athlete move to the marathon it is harder to back to the track.
They have never done.
But I'm just very curious.
I was like okay, what if I did this?
What if I do so?
I think maybe because I run marathon and go back to track.
And then I go run marathon and go back to the track the first times, I think when the people shocked in London marathon 2023, when I stopped straight and I won the race, then I did after two months, I did some track And there was a oh, that's possible.
Then I did world championship after three months.
Then I get a silver, I think silver 1500 meter or something.
And then after six weeks, I did Chicago Marathon.
And then I get around the fastest second time ever.
And maybe that's why people think it's like, this is something crazy.
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things people really like about you.
Certainly speaking from my own experience, you run with a real carefree joy, right?
You smile a lot and it's just a beautiful smile from the inside of you that I think people are not used to seeing when athletes compete.
So I think that's one reason, this curiosity, this joy.
I think also this idea that you constantly move out of your comfort zone, you're not afraid to fail at something, you're not afraid to say yeah, you know what.
I know most athletes don't do this, but i'm going to go from the 5k to the marathon i think that's also something that people really admire and respect about you.
Where do you think that comes from?
It could be experience, you know.
So i think this could be something also inside.
Just because i was, i i come As a young lady to Netherlands and that's also just kind of out of comfort zone.
And then I was like, I think around age 20 something, I have to take step.
My life, big picture, I was taught in 2016, the years of Rio, I get injured before the race.
Like I thought I'm not even going to go to Rio.
And after that, I was really depressed.
I was so angry and I even hated running.
I used to lock the door and not talk to anyone.
I thought, you know, this is not healthy.
And And I'm also Muslim.
And according to us, like when something happened to you, you should be grateful.
You should say, oh, I'm healthy.
I have felt this, this.
You always look the people down to you.
You can't complain too much about life.
So I thought, oh, this is also against my religion.
That's not good.
I say to myself, oh, I'm going to stop running.
I think I was like, I don't know, I was like 24 or something.
I decided to go on holiday by myself like for a month.
I go Morocco, I go somewhere else.
And after that, oh, I want to run.
But when I want to run, I really want to change myself.
Whether what has happened, I just have fun.
I just want to see it.
I decided to also go to America.
I already built a friendship in the Netherlands.
I have a good friend.
I have already a home, family, everything there.
And I decided, oh, I'm going to go to America.
So I talked to everybody.
Many people say actually look Sifa, you are already in Diamond Link top number one or number two.
Every race, even 800, 1500, 500 kilometers, whatever you race, you are top three.
If you go more from this coach, what if you don't succeed?
So I have to decide, I have to think, oh, if this thing, this is success, I'm going to have filler.
So I look at myself.
Okay, when I go like later, when I'm 55 years, Do I go back and look at it and this thing is not good to do, or I should have done this.
I look at it like, okay, what if I don't get success?
But still my brain wants to try that, you know, when I don't regret it later.
Still, it doesn't matter.
I did everything.
So the hardest moment when I'm already your success, you think, oh, this is the way.
I'm always number three, number two, sometimes winning.
But I just thought, okay, even if I don't win, I will take it. some step to go to US.
Yeah, this is so interesting because many people play it safe in life, don't they?
They get a, let's say, a degree of success.
I'm not talking about athletics and running now, about anything.
They get to a degree of success and then they stay locked where they are.
They don't want to push themselves beyond that.
What if they lose what they've got?
Yeah, you get it, Martin.
Yeah, and that's the thing I you know.
When I listen to you talk and hear your words, it very much comes across that you're someone who, as you said you, don't want regrets.
You'd rather take a risk and fail than not having taken the risk at all, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
You get my point.
So that is I think.
Even I was thinking.
Some half of my brain thought I'm going to lose and no, never win or never be number three, or don't even make it to the Olympics.
But still my brain, no, just tried it.
And you, when you get older, you say oh, I did everything you know to be the best runner, to improve myself.
So when I make that decision, I can't tell you I become better.
Totally different, because that's the most hardest.
You're already having something.
You have a good contract with a shoe company.
I could provide for myself.
I would run world championships.
I'm already in a safe place, but I have to move out of discomfort and push myself.
No one was helping me.
Many people were like, no, that's not a good idea.
How is it possible you're going to do that?
Yeah, people say this a lot, don't they?
They unintentionally put us down and keep us where we are, right?
Oh, it's not a good idea.
It's really interesting.
There's a lot of non-runners who listen to this podcast.
And just to put it in context for people who are not familiar with running in 2023, you ran the London Marathon, one of the premier marathon races on the planet.
That was your very first marathon and you ended up winning it.
Okay, so I don't know if that has ever been done before, someone in their first race.
What was also incredible is during that race, you were written off by the experts on many occasions.
I don't know if you've seen a rerun and heard what the commentators were saying.
Because you stopped at various times, right?
To stretch.
And I've watched a rerun and some of these very, very experienced commentators actually said somebody should take her off the course.
She's going to damage herself.
Yet you came from nowhere.
To not only catch up with the lead pack, you then went and won the race, right.
So talk us through that race.
Did you think about pulling out?
When you were pulling up at the side and stretching your hamstring and the leaders are getting further ahead.
What went through your mind?
So as a pro athlete, when you want to run marathon, you don't go to major marathon, big marathon.
Like London, you don't even think it.
Oh, you warm up in other races first?
Yeah, other races, you always do the safe part.
You go some just a small marathon and you just see how good you are, then you're good.
But to me I immediately, when I say I'm going to run a marathon, I was like I'm going to do London.
They was like, oh, London is too risky because they're going to a lot of big people.
Like it's better you run some small.
I say, no, I want to do London.
Then after, when you go home, you're like smart idea.
No, your brain is like I think that's stupid.
So I had really for three months, just just even the night.
Oh, that's not good idea.
It's better listen, you know, listen to the people around you.
You're like again no, I want to do it.
So when the race happened and I just say see oh, my god, everybody telling me I didn't listen, this is gonna happen I was like even asking God, I just want to go something like 25k, 28k.
So I just say, oh, I have experience.
Hold on.
So when you were stretching and it looked to everyone that you were injured in your head, you were saying I knew this would happen.
Everyone told me not to race.
So how did you go from that to winning?
I kind of stretched like, just let me run just 2k, 3k more.
And I was like, the pain, it didn't increase.
It did not increase.
It did increase.
Then I started running.
It was a shock.
Then I was like, the pain was like, staying there.
I thought, okay.
I was like, actually, okay, I'm going to do.
When I was 38, like around 28 or something, I was already grateful.
I said, I don't care what happened.
Even if I stop also, I have experience.
I was like, I have experience.
So when you were at 28K and the race, for people who don't know, was 42K.
Mm-hmm.
You're just going, okay, this is good.
I've got the experience.
I've run 28K at a major marathon.
Doesn't matter what happens.
I'm still learning about this new discipline.
Yeah.
Okay, then what happens?
Then I was like, I was really already happy.
Like, this is the experience.
Next time I'm going to be better.
I was running.
Then I think I was happy.
I didn't know how to drink because I have Ramadan hormones.
I didn't drink.
I didn't practice.
I almost get hit by a bus when I grab the drink.
When I saw the athlete is taking the drink.
And I was like, okay, how much I have to drink?
So you're watching the other top athletes.
Okay, they're taking two sips.
Exactly.
And at 35, I don't know, for some reason, I cut the group.
I was already celebrating.
People say, oh, she's going to win.
I didn't care.
I was celebrating.
I was like, I'm so happy.
I was with this elite athlete who's the greatest marathon runner ever.
I was so grateful.
I think one thing in our life also, being grateful is actually what makes you lead to success.
I was so grateful and I was cheering.
And my energy actually increased by just you know somebody.
When you win, you already have for a couple hour high energy.
I was already celebrating, you know, celebrating.
So that was at 38K.
So you're feeling grateful.
The gratitude is giving you more energy.
You're with some of the top runners of all time.
So there's 4K left.
What goes on between 38 and 42.
That means you end up getting the gold.
So i was running with them.
I was just happy with our number four, number three.
I didn't fail.
I was like the end.
I was like i know i have kick, but the kick become really.
I was so powerful.
I was sprinting like crazy.
I was like couldn't believe.
I like how is i never imagine i will go to london marathon as my first marathon and i'm gonna win?
I was like.
I was like I won.
London Marathon.
The marathon I watched on the TV.
I was like, really, I couldn't believe I was a sprinter.
I was like, I win.
I win in London Marathon.
But you know, it's funny when you were sprinting.
And I think this goes back to what people love about you.
There was a playfulness with your sprint.
Okay. it certainly to me, and I'm not a running coach, it wasn't an intense focus, right?
I practice this, now I've got to run, I've got 100 meters to go.
It was almost this disbelief, this kind of happiness, this I don't know.
There was a real freedom I felt watching you.
And I don't know.
It keeps going back to the same point, which is how many of us listen to the voices around us that maybe our parents, maybe our work colleagues, maybe our boss, maybe our friends they're not trying to keep us down.
They're trying to help us.
Yeah, people were trying to help you say, hey, don't go to the London Marathon.
It's risky.
But Savannah, even that word risky is interesting to me.
I don't know what your take is, but it's only risky, I guess, if the goal is winning.
If the goal is just to get experience, well, it's not risky, right?
Yeah.
So it depends what your definition of success is.
So what do you say is right?
So 2019, I become the best 50 hundred meter, 5K and 10,000 meter runner.
So you, people around you or your coach always choose the same.
I was in three events so I have to cancel one because 50 hundred meter, 5000 meter, just 13 minutes apart.
So they have 5,000 meters and the 10,000 meters runner, the same athlete.
So if you win 10000 meters because you're going to compete with the same athlete, you're going to You don't know what happened, but you're going to guarantee by almost 99, you're going to win 5000 meters or so.
So I told my coach.
He's like okay, I'm so grateful you win 10000 meters, so you're going to do 5000 meters.
Because the people you're going to race, the same people you're already easy.
Win, you're going to win.
You're going to become like Mo Farah.
I told him, no, I want to do 1,500 meters.
He's like...
I argued with him almost two days.
Suddenly, I was like, this is risky, 1,500 meters, a fresh athlete.
You already run 10,000 meters.
Your leg is tired.
In 1,500 meters, also tactic.
You could end up becoming number five.
It's tactic race.
I told him, it's life all about gold.
He's like, no.
I said to him, let me do that.
That's what I love.
I just want to do experience.
When you said, is life just about gold, my whole body lit up, that went straight to my heart.
I promise you, because this is something I think about all the time.
You know, how are we defining success, right?
You know, the people around you is like, yeah, we want you to win.
So the best chance of winning is to do 10,000 and 5,000.
If you do 1,500, you may not win.
But what if winning isn't the goal?
Exactly.
What if experience is the goal?
You know, life is not just about gold.
Yeah.
I remember he couldn't answer that.
He let me do.
And luckily I get awarded.
I won.
But that thing really helped me because that's the first thing.
Then I come to Tokyo years.
I was the best chef of my life.
So I choose the two, three events.
And then that's the crazy thing.
And then from 2019, I was thinking I'm going to do three events.
I'm training with myself.
But in my brain, that's crazy.
What if you lose everything?
So then COVID come, cancel.
Imagine I have to carry that thing, train for 2021.
When 2021 come, I told I'm going to do three events.
I can't tell you how many people told me, you're going to go empty-handed.
Even the people who's like really close to me, no, she's not going to do this.
She's not going to win this.
She's not going to win this, but she's going to win this.
Even the person I tell as a secretary, like, I don't think so she's going to get in TV.
I don't think she's going to get this.
And even the one called me, no, you're going to go empty-handed.
That's crazy.
That's stupid.
That's whatever.
Do you feel any pressure?
What I mean by that is... you're a professional athlete, okay?
So maybe your sponsors, right?
Presumably they're wanting you to be getting medals and being photographed with the gold medal or the silver or the bronze, whatever.
When everyone around you is saying no, does that make you even more determined to follow your heart?
Or like, is that there anyway?
Or when the people are saying no around you, Are you quite stubborn?
Where you go right, you're saying no.
I'm going to show you by saying yes.
It's what my heart wants.
Even if you tell me it's this or that.
But still, I can be also flexible.
I can say, oh, that's maybe not smart.
But it's like always something inside of me.
Like, no, do, do, do.
I want to experience.
I want to see what is possible.
This is actually take action, a power over me what, what inside me, i want.
I'm very determined when i want it, when i want it, not when the people tell me you can't do it.
Sometimes they say okay whoever, whatever you say, i don't care and i just walk away.
But if i believe it, i don't care how many voice shout.
Were you always like that, even as a little girl growing up in Ethiopia?
I was very curious.
I was very hard for my mom.
And luckily, I think it is good.
I was grow up in Ethiopia, because in Ethiopia the difference I see, in Ethiopia and in Netherlands the children are different.
In Ethiopia, you have baby, the baby's two, three years, the baby do her own things, you know.
But in Netherlands, they do every time for children.
In Ethiopia, you're already more independent.
As a child, you do your own things.
But it's also come because I have in my life as a younger girl I have a lot of experience around the world.
I have lived in Africa as a young girl.
I lived in Netherlands and I go to America.
So I become more open-minded.
Before, I was scared.
My curiosity, I keep it to myself.
I let my curiosity go outside.
Yeah.
You mentioned the word gratitude a lot in this conversation.
You mentioned in the 2023 London Marathon, your first marathon that you ended up winning when you were back on the track after stretching your legs.
You just felt grateful that you were able to continue and still be in this incredible race.
You also said before that though, that I think in 2016 you were feeling quite angry and frustrated with performances, right.
And you had to remind yourself that your religion teaches you that it's important to be grateful.
So I'm interested what happened?
Because it sounds like there's been quite a profound shift in your psychology with how you approach these things.
In 2016 anger and frustration.
2023 2024, 2025 a lot more relaxed and grateful for what you get to do.
Tell me about that change.
So when I want to.
I grew up.
I told you when I was a child.
My family is Muslim, but they really don't know that much about religion.
So when I decided to go to America, I was like, actually, why I'm Muslim?
I have to learn about it, you know?
I started deep reading it and I learned a lot.
And that's when I was like, Actually, to me, the Islam become the way of life.
Not only just a religion, the way of life.
Because I come as a younger girl, even in the Netherlands.
I don't know how to handle when I'm happy.
I don't know how to live life when I'm sad.
I was coming... to Netherlands by myself.
So I have to learn from something.
So that teach me, okay, this is the way you live.
This is the way you handle when you're angry.
I learned a lot from the religion of Muslim.
I'm also, you know, how I'm curious.
I'm like in Netherlands, free, you can do drug.
And I had a lot of also bad friends.
So I could ended up doing bad things, but luckily, because of the religion, I ended up actually with drugs.
So for you, it sounds like your religion gave you a framework for how to live.
Thank you.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Be grateful, right?
Be appreciative for what you have, you know, do this, don't do that or whatever it might be.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Can you?
I mean, I don't know how much you're prepared to share, but you were born in Ethiopia, right?
Yeah.
You know, how was your early childhood in Ethiopia?
It was really beautiful.
So you grow up, you don't have car, you just...
Work for yourself and you run to the school.
It's just like playing around.
For me, it is just one... As a child, that's one of your dreams.
When you're a child, you don't care about gold house, gold car, gold thing.
It's like, oh, you play, you do barefoot.
I grew up running barefoot to there and to here.
It is just a beautiful... As a child, I really enjoy my life.
But as you grow up, some of Africa country, it is very...
A lot of problems.
Just my nature, I'm very why this, why that.
In Africa, sometimes you can't say why this, why that.
As a girl or as a human being?
As a human being, it's very hard, actually.
Especially with politics back then, you have to just start to live the way it is.
But as a human being, even as a kid, I ask everything.
And actually, Dutch fit me because in the Netherlands, they ask everything.
They ask everything.
And they're very direct also.
Okay, so you had a happy childhood, running around barefoot running, asking questions until you weren't able to.
You went to school there.
And when you left Ethiopia for the Netherlands at the age of 15, was it just you by yourself?
I left somebody, but it's like I don't really have.
You know, as a young, you really need your mom, your dad, who guide you to how to live life.
I didn't have that one.
But actually I have a lot of mentor in Netherlands, but it is just the culture.
The life is totally different.
It's totally opposite.
Did you choose the Netherlands or was that just one of the options?
No, it just happened.
Really?
For many of us who have grown up and live in the West, we possibly can't even fathom what it is like, at the age of 14 or 15, to have to leave our family and our country to go thousands of miles away and live in a different country with a different culture.
Are you happy sharing why you left in the end?
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It is just all the politics.
Like, I can't go forever.
I think it takes a long time.
But it's just like... So back then in Ethiopia, many people was... I think it was almost...
It could be like from one president to other president.
Some president ruled for 30 years, some people for five years.
So it's almost gone, gone.
It starts from my grandpa, my grandfather, my father, and just always the politics.
I think now it's getting better, but still, I think some...
They have also three years ago, they have a war, they have to leave.
So every time just go around, one group leave, the other group leave.
This is just freaking politics in Africa.
And so when you left, you arrive in the Netherlands.
What were those first few days like?
In Ethiopia, every door is open.
Every door is open.
Every people like, there's a lot of community.
The children play together.
And so the door is closed.
I'm like, why the door is closed here?
Like for me also, this is the hardest things.
Like that's the hardest thing.
And I'm also a very outdoor person.
So most of the time you stay inside, you know, watching movies or whatever.
I was like, why?
That's the hardest thing.
I really, I think for two years, I really don't want to stay in the Netherlands.
I just know my things.
But luckily I become...
I have to think about my life.
I was becoming a student.
I was focused.
I was like, I'm fine.
And I think I adapted the culture also after that very fast.
Because they are very direct and very open-minded.
That's what I am very fitted in.
Yeah.
I've read that you call yourself a very proud Dutch citizen.
Yes.
Yes.
How do you think about nationality?
You grew up in Ethiopia.
Your family are Ethiopian, yet you now reside in the Netherlands and Holland.
It's interesting to me.
And the reason I ask also is because I'm, you know, not in the same way as you at all.
But, you know, my parents were immigrants from India to the UK in the 1960s and 1970s.
So growing up, I have an Indian background at home.
And then in the day I'm at school.
So there's kind of Indian values at home, Western values at school.
So I've thought a lot about Who am I?
Am I British?
Am I Indian?
You know, why does it even matter?
Which is what I think these days.
But how do you think about nationality?
I think to me also, if I'm young enough to say I'm Netherland, I know about Ethiopia also.
So I was also very confused.
Because when I go back to home a couple of years ago, when they talk about Netherland, I get infestive, I get angry.
When somebody also say about Utopia, I'll get whatever.
So suddenly I become like, okay, I'm just both.
Even because now I feel even, so I go to America, so I even feel, oh, I know American people.
I lived seven years almost, no, six years.
So I think if people go, can you change us?
Like back then to 10 years, I say 10 years ago, I was like, I don't want that.
But now if I go back, that's the amazing thing happened to me.
So it's good things that change.
People know about one place and then come to another place and come to that place.
So now it is for me, it's like, what matters?
Why do I have to be Ethiopian?
What matters?
Why do I have to be Native?
I'm very proud to be African.
I'm very proud to be European.
It's just deep inside.
I think you know that.
Yeah, I love hearing that perspective because I think nationality is a thing that people get so attached to.
And I mean the more I think about these things.
I think the more attachments we have, the more trapped we become.
Exactly.
You know, we're all part of the human race.
Yes.
Right.
We're all trying to get on in the world, you know, achieve our goals, lift people up around us.
And I think these labels sometimes become really quite limiting for us.
And You know it's interesting, the London Marathon 2025 was probably just over 24 hours ago when it finished.
And the London Marathon Instagram page and your page posted a beautiful video of you having finished.
And I think one of your Dutch counterparts was still coming in and you were so excited and you were smiling, you were cheering.
And it was really nice to see that sort of camaraderie.
Yeah, like I will tell you the secret I never tell anyone yet.
I had some breathing problem.
I just figured out because yesterday the highest polar, I have a whole polar allergy.
So I couldn't catch up.
My brain's like, you can't.
Oh, you were feeling the pollen yesterday?
Yeah, yesterday.
Wow.
So I didn't know that.
I just hear it was high pollen, but I couldn't breathe.
So the secret I want to tell you, I was already number three.
I know I don't catch, but in my brain, oh, you're not going to catch.
I said, Atlas, you're going to enjoy what is going to happen to the man.
Like immediately I finish, I'm like, oh, I have to watch the man.
So what's the ending of the men's race?
Well, I'm racing like five or six kilometres left.
I know I couldn't catch them, the number one, the leaders.
So I was telling my brothers, OK, at least you're going to know who's going to win at the Man.
You know, the Man, they have this year the strongest field ever.
I was even curious about how Abdi Nagui is going to race.
I know his training, he's really good here.
I was curious about Elliott.
I was curious about Kip Lemo.
So I was like, I was even telling Ade before, I wish I do a race.
I just sit down and watch my race.
Yeah.
It's fascinating hearing that.
Things that most marathon runners are practicing and they're getting dialed in completely.
And then you weren't taking a drink, right?
And then yesterday in the men's race, of course, at that I think that 35 kilometer drink station, that's when the whole race changed.
When the winner didn't take a drink, everyone else takes a drink, and he stretches this big gap.
That's what happened.
The lady did to me that too.
Really?
I take drink, they didn't take, they stretch me out.
Yeah, isn't that interesting?
It's very interesting.
Yeah, you need the fuel actually.
That's how we believe scientifically.
They say you have to have drink at the time.
Yeah, but again it's these.
Again, I'm not saying we don't need the fuel, but it's interesting that the guy who won the men's race yesterday didn't take the fuel, but instead he took the opportunity to create a psychological advantage.
And then I think, well, maybe in 2023, one of the reasons you ran is because maybe you didn't drink.
Maybe that's a good thing.
That's true.
But also, I think the biggest, whatever your brain believes, if you exercise, you will do it.
I think the guys just take, okay, I take this opportunity, I'm going to destroy them.
That's what I did, I think.
Can you explain to me because I'm not an elite athlete like you the importance of that psychology right?
So at a drink station...
Let's say you're all running together in a group, right?
And let's say someone does make a break and they get ahead.
What is that like for an athlete?
Like if suddenly someone you were running with suddenly you find is quite far ahead of you in just a few moments.
What does it do to you psychologically?
Because the commentators kept mentioning you, because you won London.
You were the Olympic gold medalist from last year's marathon.
And when they started to break away, your name kept coming up.
The commentators kept saying they're worried about Saffan's kick.
So they're going to keep checking to make sure they've got clear with Saffan.
They don't want to risk being with her at the end.
Now, again, that's the commentators.
I don't know if that's true from the athletes.
How much does that psychology play into when you're actually racing?
It really plays bigger.
So it's a big role?
Big one.
So because of what I did in London, I was in Paris and I was feeling so good at 20k.
20k?
Yeah, 20k.
So halfway through?
Yeah, halfway.
I was feeling good.
And I was like, I saw they are struggling going downhill.
I said, can I break them here?
And I tried to pass them.
And they speak the language Ethiopian and I hear the language, I understand.
They're like, what she's doing?
The other guy said, I think she's going to go.
And I was like, no, I'm not going to go.
I'll come back.
Oh, so you heard them talking about you.
Yeah, they were talking about me.
I was like, oh, okay.
These people are just focused on me.
So I saw all of them look at me like they are only racing with me.
So I told myself, no, go back.
I just go back.
Let me just be safe.
Let me play the safe part.
That's interesting.
So...
Do you think that's because you came from nowhere in 2020?
Not from nowhere, to be clear.
Obviously, you're an elite athlete.
But in terms of the marathon, because you hadn't done that before and you win your first race, Like everyone's thinking oh my God, we have to watch her.
I have seen a lot of amazing athletes who did amazing on the track and then the marathon.
It's totally because the energy system is totally different.
So I come from nowhere.
It's not only the way I win in London was unusual also.
So you can't say a person stretch, stop, walk and almost drink and then go win.
So that's give you oh this, even somebody come to me.
They was like oh, they want to beat, Like in Tokyo.
I raced before Paris.
They say, oh, they want to beat you.
But the coach say, we are mostly, we're not focused on Tokyo.
We are going to beat her in Paris.
So even the London one marathon, because the way I win is totally different.
It makes like I was the greatest marathon runner for many athletes in the head.
So when you heard them talking about you, so this is, I didn't know any of this.
This is interesting.
So you're in the 2024 Olympic marathon.
And again, just for the non-runners, you did something remarkable in that Olympics.
You competed in the 5K, the 10K, and then the marathon, right?
And I remember because I remember this so well.
I had just gone on a family holiday with my wife and children to Kenya for four weeks.
And we had just come back and and we were watching the Olympics on television and me, my son and my daughter watch your marathon race and we were talking about we just round the TV thinking she must be knackered today.
She must be exhausted because she's just done the 5K and the 10K.
Who's gonna do a marathon after already being tired?
And what was the time span between the 5K, the 10K and the marathon?
So the time is what was like the 5K was two day and then at the 10K, then between the 5K is two times, at least two times.
The heat.
Oh, the heat.
Yeah.
So two 5Ks.
Yeah, two 5Ks.
And then I raised the 10,000 and then I have 36.
36 hours before the marathon.
A day and a half.
Yeah.
But for me, it wasn't really 36 hours because it's less because I have doping control.
The mixed zone interview, it takes like two hours.
All the interviews afterwards.
And then I have doping control.
I have like 2 a.m. to my hotel.
Oh, so you get to your hotel at 2 a.m.
So you're already late.
You're not going to get enough sleep.
No way.
And I was lying down.
When you race as a little athlete, we have really high adrenaline.
Adrenaline, yeah.
You've just been racing, right?
Yeah, exactly.
You can't sleep.
So the things I had just a night before the marathon and I go early on 9pm to go sleep.
But my body doesn't want to sleep because I always come later for medallion ceremony, like I couldn't sleep until 1am or something and by 4am I have to wake up.
I mean, it just makes it even more remarkable that you got Olympic gold after all of this.
But again, going back to one of the themes earlier on, I think Saffan, this is one of the things people love about you.
There's this Like impossible doesn't seem to exist for you.
It's like, yeah, okay, I'm going to do it.
It doesn't matter.
You know, I think many of us in life, we allow excuses to get in our way.
We go, oh, you know what?
That's happened.
Of course I can't do this.
Like, as you said, there's more to life than winning gold.
Okay.
A great life lesson for all of us.
And it seems to be this can-do attitude.
It's like, yeah, okay, well, you know what?
The race finished.
I had interviews for two hours.
I had to do my doping control tests.
I'm knackered.
But hey-ho, why don't I do the marathon and see what happens?
Is that literally how you approach it?
Yeah, to me, I think, many people especially.
Well, number one how we destroy ourselves to have an excuse.
Like for London Marathon for yesterday.
If I make excuse, they're like oh, she's great because she have this problem.
But I'm also destroying myself.
The good thing is actually because we're scared.
You know why we don't do many things?
Why we don't try?
Because we're scared to fulfill it.
If we feel, then people are going to judge us.
For example, if everybody's like, oh, she's great, I want to be always called greater.
Because when they say it's great, I'm already in comfort zone because everybody thinks I'm great.
But if I try to out of that great comfort zone I will be maybe challenge, feel that people are going to talk about me.
I'm not good.
So we're scared of actually judging.
People judge us.
I think the great thing is just try it and don't care what they say.
You try, you know.
Don't think also to be like greatest.
Just do your best.
There is nobody great in everything.
There is also nobody have power bad in anything.
Everybody have something.
Just just try, you know, to.
So what i see is people just scared of trying, you know, because people somebody gonna judge them.
This is, i mean, such an important bit of wisdom.
You just shared that for people.
Um, it's really interesting that you race marathons, but that's really a metaphor for life, isn't it?
Life is a marathon.
Exactly.
In life, we have to endure.
Things are going to happen.
It's going to feel tough at times.
And somehow we have to find a way to get through.
And actually I was watching a video of yours this morning and it was really inspiring because you were saying, and to be clear for everyone, you are, You know, one of the world's best athletes.
You've got six Olympic medals, I believe.
You're the current Olympic marathon gold medalist.
Yet you still say that you have both parts of your mind.
Sometimes you're really scared before you do something.
You have fear.
You have nerves.
You're scared that you're not good enough, that you are not enough.
Yet you do it anyway.
And I thought wow, if someone with six Olympic medals is saying that, That should be inspiring for all of us, for those of us who let fear get in the way of us living our best lives.
I think I'm going to look.
For example, after I won a Paris Olympic, everybody think I'm great.
So I talk after Olympic four or five months off and I'm already gain also weight.
And especially six weeks ago, I was ready to run London Marathon.
So in my heart, because I did already out of comfort zone, I was scared.
But I know if I had an athlete, if they are not scared, Sure, they're going to win.
They don't come.
But to me, I already used to.
Because 21, I won gold, gold, and won silver.
22, I had bad years.
I didn't win any race.
So they were like, she's done.
Her life is over.
Believe me, we're all scared.
I'm scared.
I'm terrified sometimes.
But I just do it.
I just win over my fear.
So I'm going to tell everybody, wherever you look, try it.
Who cares?
Okay, done, done.
As long as it's not dangerous, as long as it doesn't kill you, just try it.
So this is interesting.
Okay.
So, having won gold at the London Marathon in 2023, having won gold at the Olympic Marathon in Paris in 2024, you came third in the London Marathon yesterday, okay.
Yeah.
Some people might look at that as a failure.
Right?
Yeah.
If someone's listening right now and they think yeah well, you won two golds and then you came third.
Well, that's not good.
That's not what you would be expecting of yourself.
Or whatever story they have about you, what would you say to them?
I say, actually, you're greater because of failure.
The more you try, the more you fail.
The more also you succeed because you try.
Imagine if you try only one, two times, you may win one, two times.
But if I try 10 times...
I fail five times.
I win five times.
Who's the winner?
I'm winner.
I win more than you.
So it's like this.
You could have a lot of failure, but you also have the chance to win.
Look, I tried six distance at the two Olympics.
I have three balloons.
I have three gold.
So and I also tried so many marathon and I'm already have.
But yeah, it's not even for me when I hear that.
It's not even just how many golds you've got right.
You could have played it safe and just stuck to your distances.
Then you never would have learned about the marathon, and that it's a different event, different energy systems.
How do you maintain that concentration for 42 kilometers, not just 5K or 10K?
And then, going beyond the gold medals, it's also about life, and what do we want our experience of life to be?
Because how many new life experiences have you experienced, have you experienced through challenging yourself?
So whether you got gold or not... Forget about it, yeah.
Of course it's important.
Great, I'm not diminishing it.
It's great that you've got the gold medals.
But even if you hadn't, you would have learned so much about yourself, which you wouldn't have learned had you played it safe.
Exactly.
That's also, for me, people think...
It is all about running, running.
No, it's not about running.
It is also where, after I go out of my running career, I can jump into any business or any things.
I will still figure out.
I will still work out to solve the problem.
I will still have the solution for the problem.
But that's where the confidence comes from, doesn't it?
The confidence that you now have, even beyond your running career, to solve problems, and problems are going to come up in life.
Of course.
The confidence comes... from taking risks, from going outside your comfort zone.
I mean some people.
These things sound like cliches, but they're cliches because they're true, right.
This is literally how you've learned.
Exactly.
It's normal to have up and down.
It's like, if we have perfect life, we don't even enjoy it.
We don't even enjoy life, I think.
Going back to the 2024 Olympic marathon, you were telling me how, halfway through, you were feeling good, despite having done the 5K and the 10K and not much sleep leading up to it.
You're feeling good halfway through and you were thinking about making a run, making a break right, and you heard some of your competitors talking in Ethiopian.
You could hear the language that they were worried or they were thinking about what you're going to do, right.
So you decided, okay, I'm not going to go.
Why did you hearing them focusing on you, why did that lead you to change your decision?
Instead of going, why did you hang back then?
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Because when I look at them, I'm like, oh, they worry about me.
And I look at the Kenyan, they also look at me.
I know they are hunting me.
They wasn't focused on the race, they are hunting me.
I was like, why you have to be just, stay there, do the best.
And I also tell myself, Before the race, I will do the best of my race.
Just try to compete with myself.
So that I go back and say, just, you know, just stay behind, race, just don't make any mistake.
Come back.
That's really saved me.
So it almost gave you an increased confidence.
Exactly.
Oh, they're talking about me.
I'm the hunted one now.
So fine.
I've got a bit more confidence, autonomy here.
I can make decisions here.
I don't need to push now.
Let me save it yes, in case i need it at the end, and you did need it at the end, of course.
It was quite a um how can i put it?
Quite a robust finish right, and do you remember that finish?
Do you remember what happened when it seemed to say you guys almost touched at one point?
Yeah exactly, i was like um, so i, I think like around 1K, I want to go to run next to her.
1K left.
So you nearly finished the race.
And I was like, try to go next to her.
I didn't know that she's blocking me actually.
So I was like, I was like, I see her again in front of me.
I try here, I see.
I thought, oh, she's so fast.
I can't match her cadence.
You can't match her.
I thought, I thought, yeah, I can't match her cadence.
I thought, I didn't know that she's trying to like block me.
So I just stayed behind her.
And at the time, the time passed, the we smash it.
I i feel like i can't tell.
I feel like somebody gave me like wake up call, like some crazy alarm or something.
I was like boom.
My head was like boom because you just exploded, just become like i shocked.
Actually, were you shocked by how quick you were able to run at the end?
No, i was shocked when, like she's smashing, when we smash each other, i would like really wake up and i was like try to sprint as hard as I can.
Oh, so you think that knock actually helped you?
I think that knock helped me a lot.
Wow.
It really helped me.
And a question I think a lot of us who are non-elite athletes think about is you know, you guys, of course at the top level, are competing with each other, right?
Yeah.
You know, because only one person can get gold, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Does that affect your relationship with these fellow athletes off the track?
Is it hard to be friends with people off the track when part of your job is to try and beat them on the track?
I i, to me it's most of the time actually, i don't really.
I have uh, in the track like we talk, and you know, because most of the time i think as an athlete, it's better you focus on yourself because you can only do a, You can only control about yourself.
But it's good also having competitive, you know, that make actually sport beautiful, you know.
When you make a record and then someone beats that record, how do you feel?
I don't really care.
It actually motivates me.
Like when fate break my mile record and everybody's sorry.
I was like no, it's good because I know I can go harder.
What was your mile record?
It was 412.
Four minutes and 12 seconds.
Yes, she broke, I think, like four, seven.
And now I believe I tried.
Actually, when I tried before, like before I jumped to the marathon, I was like oh, I can break that record.
Now, actually, fate make it easy.
It's like, I know that's possible.
Like the record I break was 20, 70 years old record.
So you broke a 20 year old record and after you broke it.
And two years or three, he broke it.
But we see this, don't we?
We saw this with Roger Bannister and the four minute mile.
He breaks it after, well, he becomes the first human being to run under four minutes.
And I think eight people break it in the next two years.
A minute later, exactly.
Because the mentality has changed.
And I think she has just announced that she wants to try and break the four-minute mile barrier later this year, I think.
Did you hear that?
Yeah, I heard that.
It is very good.
Like it's actually.
I'm very starting proud of many athletes because they're always stuck in one place.
Now they try to, they are taking challenge.
You know, that's what I want.
Like, especially to me.
Actually, when they broke this, when they broke that, I really wanted to break now.
So I know it is possible.
It's like I'm sure, when athletes now they want to do trade event and go to track and go back to marathon, it is easy because i have done.
But if you never see somebody that it is very hard because you you are taking risk.
But they know that i have done, it is easy for them but i'm so happy like athlete now starting taking challenge.
You know they don't have to.
Why?
Why we have to wait to somebody try.
We don't tell ourselves i know it's very important to you to inspire women, isn't it?
In fact, I read a quote from you which was females will always have challenges, but the challenge is like practicing.
It helps you get stronger to become a warrior.
You know why is this important?
I want to actually inspire everybody.
To me, it is because females are a generation.
If the female is strong, if it's a strong mother, if your wife or your mother, somebody stronger, the child she produce, the child she feed, is going to be stronger.
That is a matter of like when female is strong, the man is also strong.
It's not I was focused on the female is strong as man.
No, we're different.
I'm different.
Even every man is different.
So I don't have to be strong as man.
I'm strong in a different way.
He's strong in a different way.
He's born differently.
I'm born differently.
But I'm equal as human being.
I believe that.
I believe in equality.
But I don't believe really that I'm strong as this.
No, I'm not strong.
But to me, I want to motivate human because I want to motivate all human being.
Because female are really generation.
If the mother is weak, the child will be weak.
Whether a boy or a girl.
That one.
Like if the mother is exercising, the child will exercise.
If the mother is good in her head, the child will be good inside.
Yeah, I love that message.
I think my wife would love it even more, that message.
Yeah, exactly.
I think she would very much be agreeing and going, yes, you're absolutely right.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Again, I can't speak for Ethiopia or for the Netherlands, but one thing that we see in the UK and I think in many other Western countries certainly the US, I know is the same I don't know in the Netherlands that once girls get to their teenage years, their physical activity starts to decline.
So we know that we have a generation of young girls teenagers women, who are not moving their bodies as much as would be good from a health perspective.
Now, there's many reasons for that.
One thing that I know some women feel and men for that reason, but let's just keep this on women for a minute is that they often feel self-conscious about their bodies.
They don't like the way that they look and therefore that sort of shame or embarrassment stops them from, let's say, going for a run or going to the gym.
If there is a lady, or even a teenage girl listening to us talk right now, who feels a bit embarrassed to go out there and go for a run.
She's worried that people are looking at her, she doesn't like the shape of her body or whatever it might be.
What would you say to her?
So I say to her that you know, the confidence that she does have is because she's not when people notice that they become physical body, become weaker.
When you are weaker, it doesn't matter how beautiful you are.
You can't have confidence.
Just start exercising.
When she becomes strong, her confidence builds.
Even just being healthy and strong is actually what builds confidence.
And look at yourself and you say I'm strong.
If your body is strong, you don't even.
You don't see that you're not beautiful, you're not looking good.
You think you are looking good, you are better, because something connects you.
You know your neuro, your brain is connected.
Oh, you're strong.
That's why female and male are so different.
Like male is because they're born that way, they think, oh, I think that's what I'm going to say.
They have to exercise. especially like just don't sit behind the computer.
They have to exercise.
They have to move to have the confidence back.
In the 2024 medal ceremony.
You wore your headscarf to the ceremony and it seemed to cause quite a lot of noise on the internet.
Was she making a statement?
Was she trying to say something and send a message to the world?
From your perspective, what actually happened?
To me, to me it's like, look, okay, I'm no hijabi girl, to be honest.
Like a Muslim, according to religion, you have to cover whole body.
But I do the hijabi to also send the message, because I have learned from in the Muslim people who wear hijab they don't have confidence.
They think the man is telling them to wear.
They think they don't have... They are not smart and they are so weak.
So I just wanted the word.
No, they have...
They are very smart people.
They are very independent.
They are very strong.
I just want to say, see, you could be Muslim and be strong and say whatever you want to be.
Be like in the good manner.
Be just with a good morality.
You could be Muslim, female and have great education, be sported, be stronger.
So that I want to see.
Muslim is actually, they choose to be Muslim.
I choose to be Muslim.
Nobody forces me.
It sounds like you want it to almost you know, break down barriers and judgment and go hey look, I'm a gold medalist.
I just kicked ass in the Olympic marathon and won an incredible sprint out.
And I'm also someone who wears a headscarf to sort of break down that judgment which, of course, there's a lot of judgment and discrimination in the world's Very empowering message you were trying to put out there.
Yes, yes.
Did you get much pushback and much negativity?
Or do you not even take take any attention of that kind of stuff?
I rarely get any attention.
Because to me, both of them, I don't take attention.
Because if you also search for positive, one day they're going to crush you.
If you also search for negative, both of them, it's not necessary.
It's good that people say it's great, but it's good.
If you want to be greatest, don't search for anything.
Don't search for the bad.
Don't search for good also.
You will be greater because you just...
Feel you just do what is right, what is good for you.
Either way, it's like the gun in your head, people will decide for your life.
It's good to also talk to people you know.
Choose what is good and talk.
Be open-minded, also flexible.
But it's just, it's not necessary to search for both attention.
Like I'm going to say, especially the children, don't search for anything.
To be greater.
I completely agree.
If you let the good go to your head, the negativity is going to bring you down as well.
The one who put you up is going to put you also down.
But you said before, without sad, there's no happy.
Right?
It's the balance of life.
Success, there is no failure.
Failure, there is no success also.
Yeah.
So that is what I say.
And then, yeah, exactly.
This is what I just want to show in the world.
They deserve it.
You seem to have a lot of... mature life wisdom, right?
That often we don't associate with people until they get quite a bit older.
And I'm interested to know do you think that comes largely from your upbringing, the fact that you've had to move countries and get used to different cultures and different ways of living?
Or do you think it's come through your athletic journey and running?
Or is it everything?
No, I think to me it's like, Believe me, you will be intelligent if you travel around.
I wasn't born that way.
I cannot tell you genetically I'm this.
Now it comes, I don't also tell you from athlete background because I know many athletes.
Yesterday somebody asked me, you try every tune to be good.
Where it come from?
Because I didn't see many Ethiopian do that in running.
I say because I travel around.
As a young, move to this country, move to that.
It just open up your mind.
You get actually free school.
Like we have to go to school as child.
This is a great school, actually.
It just, I think, just great school, great university.
You can call it great university.
Yeah.
I think travel is amazing.
It's amazing.
Because it shakes you out of your belief system.
Yeah.
You think the world is a certain way and you travel.
You're like, oh.
Oh, there's another way to operate in the world.
There's another belief system.
There's other ways that people live in harmony with completely different beliefs to me.
And I really do believe that, of course, not everyone can travel, but more travel.
I think would really make the world a lot happier and there'd be less discrimination.
Yeah, exactly.
Because you see, like now, when I talk to people, I know when I talk to Ethiopian people, Netherlands and America, I have totally different opinion than the person.
Because I see differently, because I live in Netherlands, I live in Ethiopia.
This time, you know, I went to Kenya. for three months.
It made me actually.
I want to learn in Kenya.
I want to learn about Kenya culture in university or something.
It looked like, I feel actually part of Africa, like my home, they think this way, this is the way.
It's that curiosity that sort of seems to permeate everything you do.
Exactly.
Right?
That curiosity, what's possible?
What can I learn here?
What's the language you grew up speaking in Ethiopia?
I speak, they're called Oromo language.
One of, I think, maybe half done.
People speak, 15% of people, they speak the language.
In Kenya, also because in the border many people are, even they are Kenya, they speak the Oromo language.
Did you also grow up speaking English?
No, I just learned.
Okay, that's interesting.
So you, sorry, the language is called Oromo?
Yes.
So you grew up speaking that language.
Yes.
Then you are a refugee to the Netherlands.
Yes.
And you didn't speak Dutch at the time.
So you had to learn Dutch.
I have to learn Dutch.
I really don't speak that much English.
I just know from school because you just have one language, one subject.
So when I come to Netherlands I immediately, like in three weeks I was in the Netherlands.
Everybody speak English.
I learn quicker English than Netherlands.
You learn English in Netherlands?
Yeah, because Netherlands language is very tough.
So what they did actually did help me.
I was become lazy to learn the Dutch because I was already uncomfortable.
So I have to suffer with this language when I'm speaking English.
But then you did learn Dutch.
I did learn it.
And then suddenly after a couple, I think after three years, I moved to Dutch coach.
I started learning Dutch.
I was also 10 months old.
No, this is really bad when I speak in the TV.
And what I like also about Dutch, they like when you speak their language.
So I was like, okay, I have to become better.
Yeah.
Just before we came into record, I had the pleasure of meeting your coach, Tim.
Yeah.
And I've been reading quite a lot about your coach recently.
And one of the things I came across was on your way to the 2023 London Marathon again, this marathon that you'd never done before.
He basically shared in an interview that I think you said it as well that Quite soon before the marathon you were thinking of even pulling out.
But I think your team had said, look, London have just announced it.
It won't be good for their marketing.
So you didn't want to let down the marketing of the event.
So you go, oh, I'm going to do it.
Even in the coach, I think on the way to the start line, you were thinking about pulling out.
Should I really be doing this?
And he mentioned that you guys made a bet that I think he proposed to you, that if you win I'll give up sugar until the end of the year.
But you came back with a higher bet, didn't you?
Yeah, exactly.
I thought we were joking because he's very addicted to sugar before.
And now it's like a joke.
Okay, if I win, you're not going to eat until Paris Olympics.
That was one year and a couple more, I think.
He's like, okay, okay, deal.
And we just make us a joke.
And suddenly I thought, you know, I never thought I'm going to win.
I ended up winning.
Timo's really struggling.
He really gave up.
He gave up sugar for 14 months.
He really, really gave up.
Very few of us in life can succeed by ourselves.
How important is your relationship with your coach, Tim?
It is very good.
Tim is actually, he's also very curious.
I used to...
Tim is actually, when I say, when I come up with something, he never say it's impossible.
He's very curious.
So he's like, he's also a risk taker.
He think, yeah, it's possible.
Every time he say, yeah, why not?
You know, that make really easy for me.
That is also when I come out with three event.
He's actually the one of I announced like a month before I'm going to do three events.
He's the one of really supportive that I think you need as an athlete.
You coach have to be one of the greatest support.
Like you're going to be as a coach, like you are actually coaching athlete.
It's a big team.
Like it's one, two brain work as one.
I feel like your coaches doesn't really support you.
Whatever you decide to make, you are down.
It's like that.
So I say when athletes are being curious, they have to choose that their coach is the one who supports them.
I heard an interview with your coach Tim, with a friend of mine Floris, from the Extra Mile List podcast.
And I think Floris asked him about advice for coaches.
And he said many things.
But one of the things he said I really, really loved.
He said never, ever joke negatively with your athletes.
And I don't really like that.
I thought it is.
Yes, it's important for athletes, but even in a marriage, in a relationship with your children like never joke about something negative.
And I thought that was a really insightful piece of advice.
Yeah, I think he's very smart, by the way.
Because it's true.
Because the athlete and coach are so close.
Even our brain has a lot of.
To myself, I have a lot of negative things coming to when I make decisions.
Then that comes to the athlete also make, yeah, maybe true.
Maybe she's or he's better.
Maybe I can't do, you know.
That you know this value.
It is very important also to know.
Yeah, I think it also resonated with me because I was chatting to my kids recently about this.
This is before I heard that interview with Tim.
And one of them made a joke, just a stupid joke.
But I said, hey, listen, even if your sibling believes 1% of that, right, even though you meant it as a joke. that can have implications for that person later on it's true right do not joke negatively it's true you know find something else to joke about but not about someone's weakness or what you perceive as a weakness and that's no and then it just hearing that made me think god he really must be a wonderful coach no it doesn't he's really this is great now it is really true also because like Especially with the children, the parents are rule model.
If you joke about it, they really take serious.
They may say they're laughing, but in their head when they come, like, maybe that's true.
You know, when the time, the difficulty time, they don't search for solution.
They say, maybe I'm stupid.
Like, if you have a child, a girl child, if you talk about how strong female is, how the success is, they will want to become like that success.
If you always tell about other history, how amazing, she did amazing thing.
Because I know as a child, I hear like my mom was talk when some female did amazing thing.
She always said, wow, this what amazing thing she did.
I was like, oh, I want to become, I want to be like that person.
So people can't say also.
That's what as a child, you just want to, you don't know anything.
You just take it.
So Van, you've experienced. many different challenges in your life up to this point.
What would you say is the hardest thing you've ever done?
The hardest thing I have done is, it was hard when I moved from the Netherlands to the U.S.
Like when I was like I already know, I'm safe, I have success, I get to survive, I have enough money, but I may lose everything.
And I have to go back to school, educate and have again a job.
So that's the hardest thing.
You know, right now I'm in a good position.
If I could keep this going, keep for five, six years, I could own something.
I could survive.
But I say, oh, I'm going to choose to go to that.
And it could be ended up.
Things go a different way.
And I was like, okay, I just, I choose, okay, if thing doesn't work, I do try three, four years.
I go to school and go back to school, have my diploma or degree, and then I go to work.
That's the hardest thing.
The other hardest thing is when I decide Tokyo Olympics to do event when I wasn't have any Olympic medal.
Wow.
And each of those hard things that you, did or put yourself forward for, for you has paid dividends.
But for some people, they don't always.
Sometimes they try and do something hard and it doesn't pay off.
Yeah, it doesn't pay off.
I had also really hard years in 2022.
It didn't pay off.
I was really struggling.
But it's not always.
But keep working, never give up.
Yeah.
Many people who listen to this show Stefan, really enjoy something called park run, which is a weekly 5k run every saturday morning that people do in community and in groups.
Okay, you are an elite athlete, one of the world's best female runners.
Um, i've got two running questions for you, okay.
Um, for someone who is not a runner but wants to build up to running 5k, what is your advice for them?
And for someone who already runs a 5k regularly but wants to get a pb, a personal best in 2025, what advice would you have for them?
So the first advice that I give is not only for every runner.
Many runners, they run, they don't do gym.
They have to.
Gym is one of important for your life.
They have to lift.
They have to do heavy lift.
Even the people who's older, when they become 60, 50, 65, whatever, they have to do lift.
That's very important.
Don't only run.
Because number one, you're going to avoid the injury.
Number two, your bone density is going to be stronger.
Number three, what I say for the younger girl, you're going to become stronger and confident.
If you're going to improve your PB, you're going to look after yourself.
If you feel strong, you're going to run also the fastest.
So then don't forget your core.
Don't forget the gym, the heavy lift, everything.
I do a lot of lifts.
They think, why are you doing big, big?
Because you cannot get bigger.
You...
Your body adapts to what you more do.
If you're at the gym every day five hours, yes, you're going to be.
If you do two times gym, one hour heavy lift, you're not going to be.
You just become stronger, and you also have more growth hormone.
That means you are actually more fit.
Number two, also don't avoid speed.
When you do speed, you make your right, right, and left...
Ventricles and your heart.
You make one stronger.
When you do longer distance, I think you make your right, your left vertebra stronger.
So it is good for your heart also to do longer, also to do sprint.
And also when you did like.
That's the way.
If you do like long run, I don't know.
Some people do 20 minute long run, some people do 45, some people do 90 minute and do that.
The other also don't only run, do sometimes biking, go to pool.
That's how you're going to run PB because our brain love to play.
They don't like to do one thing.
They get bored.
Maybe they're going to go good at it, but you're not going to improve.
But if you do something, number one, they're going to enjoy sport.
The other also, they're just going to improve also.
So whatever, if you run, but also editing.
If you have pull, you pull also.
Either way, I don't know, do core or gym, and then you're going to run PB.
Love it.
You're someone who smiles a lot, even when you're taking on a really difficult challenge.
Mm-hmm.
What does the word happiness mean to you?
Number one, why I smile, I learn.
I learn after this sadness, it's going to be something great coming.
Like what I learned, it's not going to stay there.
The depressed, yesterday I was like, okay, I'm sad, I didn't win, you know?
But I know the day will come when I win, actually going to have more happiness.
So that I'm thinking like okay actually, you know, most of my goals had made it when I lost, not when I win.
When i lost i make a really great goal, a crazy goal, i don't know why.
Wow, i know i'm not gonna be always happy.
I was sometimes depressed, sometimes angry, sometimes sad.
Yeah, the full breadth of experience, like um, long slow runs and short fast runs happiness sadness anger, calm.
You know it's good to experience everything, right?
Yeah yeah, it's uh, It's incredible.
You know, talking to you is just so inspiring.
I can see why so many people around the world truly love you, right?
And feel connected to you and feel that when they watch you run or speak, that they feel that they can do better things in their own life right.
I guess your directness as well.
You know, you don't sort of hide your words.
You tell it as you see it, which I find, and I think many people find really, really inspiring.
There's a lot of people around the world who feel as though they're in a dark place.
Okay.
They can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.
You're someone who has also been in those dark places before.
To finish off this conversation, For that person who's watching right now, who does feel that their life is not going in the way that they want it to go, and that they cannot see light at the end of the tunnel.
What would your final words for them be?
If you look at me, the people who, even if the person who watch, who knows Stephen, or maybe he never said now he's Googling, look at it.
He said, oh, wow, what she done is great.
Believe me, whatever you feel inside you, I feel the same.
Even now, I think the things is not going the way I want.
I'm angry.
I'm sad.
I'm happy.
So even the girl you think, the woman you think is success, feeling the same as you feel.
Maybe the people, the success people, they don't say.
They're actually the one who fail more.
Because when there's success also, you want more success, more success.
The thing doesn't go the way they want.
Maybe, maybe a couple things.
They try, they try, they try.
Maybe three, four things go the way they want.
Maybe 20 things doesn't go the way they want.
You only see the one success thing.
So think it, wherever you think about it, wherever you have it, I have it, I experience.
Even now.
I want to win yesterday, I didn't win.
Because I already have great names.
They say she's winner, she's hero, she's that.
I want to do that, but it didn't happen.
You think I'm angry?
I'm angry.
I was angry at myself when I went to sleep.
But that's human being.
We are the same.
Believe me, nobody is special.
It's just a matter of experience.
Matter of trying.
Just keep going.
So believe in that.
That's what I say.
Stefan, you're an incredible human being.
You're inspiring millions of people around the world.
Thank you for making some time to come on my show.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Really hope you enjoyed that conversation.
Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life.
And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else.
Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information.
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