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The professor in the very first communication class I ever took started by saying, communication is very simple.
You just need to get what's in your brain into the brain of someone else.
And Wally was right that brains are definitely involved.
There is nothing simple about it.
Today we'll hear from a world -renowned neuroscientist who will provide insights into how our brains help us communicate with each other.
Hello, I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am so thrilled to chat with David Eagleman.
David is a neuroscientist and an adjunct professor in psychiatry at Stanford.
His research includes sensory substitution, time perception, vision and synesthesia.
He is the author of eight books, including his latest, Live Wired.
David wrote and hosted The Brain, an Emmy -nominated television series on both PBS and BBC.
And if that isn't enough, he has launched several neuroscience companies based on his research.
Welcome, David. Thanks for being here.
Great, Matt. Thanks.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Great. Let's get started.
I'm sure neuroscience has something to say about how do we gain people's attention and how do we sustain that attention?
Yeah, I mean, really at the heart of this is storytelling.
There's a sense in which storytelling over the centuries has perfected structures to do this, to to make people feel like, OK, there's something going on.
There's something that needs to be solved.
There's an unresolved cord here that needs to be resolved.
We are suckers for it.
It's you know, there's a great book by Jonathan Gottschalk called The Storytelling Animal.
And he uses the analogy that if you remember at the end of Star Wars, when Luke has to try to get this bomb into the Death Star and he finds this little porthole and if he can just drop the bomb right into that little hole, it blows up the whole Death Star.
And essentially, that's what storytelling is to our brains.
It is the porthole that completely can sway us, can make us feel like, oh, you know, yeah, make us laugh, make us cry, make us understand someone else's point of view or at least push us in that direction.
So that's you know, that is really at the heart of of what neuroscience tells us about how to how we communicate and how we engage people.
So it's safe to say our brains are wired to receive stories.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Or a different way of saying is that stories are crafted to plug into what matters to the brain.
I want to jump into a point that you mentioned about stories, that stories seize our attention and engage us.
Are there certain elements of storytelling that really capture the brains?
For example, is it is it being very vivid or using emotion?
Are there things that neuroscience points to that really locks our brain into story and communication?
You know what's funny?
So I teach the brain and literature at Stanford and one of the things that has really I've been chewing on a lot lately is that everybody is very different on the inside.
And some people just as one example are very vivid visualizers.
You know, if I say imagine an ant crawling on a red and white tablecloth to a jar of purple jelly.
Some people see that like a movie at the other end of the spectrum.
Some people just have a conceptual understanding of it, but there's no picture there at all and everywhere in between.
And so it turns out that I think there's no single answer to the question you asked in terms of if a thing is vivid, for example, what I've been hypothesizing lately, and this is nothing but my own idiotic hypothesis on this, is that writers like James Fenimore Cooper or Thomas Hardy probably had extremely
good visualization.
And so they assumed that everyone else, their readers would like that, too.
Whereas somebody like Ernest Hemingway, I assume, had terrible visualization and he assumed that his readers would appreciate not having all those details.
And so there's no single answer to how vivid to make something because some people like Hardy and Cooper and other people like Hemingway.
Interesting. So it seems to me that the advice that would come from that is twofold.
One, remind yourself that your worldview is not the same of others.
And second, try to appeal to a variety of different ways of seeing the world to catch a bigger audience.
Are those two fair takeaways?
Yeah, those are those are very fair takeaways.
And I should mention something because you also asked about the emotional piece.
Now, that's something we all have in common.
Now, people people have different levels of emotion.
If you're a psychopath, you really don't care about someone's emotion.
Other people are hyper empathic and so on.
But that is actually a big important part of dropping the bomb into the Death Star, is making sure that you are finding ways to capture people's emotions because fundamentally people they don't necessarily care about whatever the topic is you're talking about, whether that's physics or gardening or genealogy
or whatever, what they if you're speaking to a broad audience, you need to figure out what the piece is that connects to them, that makes them, you know, feel something in particular, that's the important bit.
Yes. So you are echoing what we've heard many times on this podcast that really understanding your audience and what's relevant to them is critical to helping make for effective communication.
And, and you're layering on that how understanding that relevance and tying it to some emotion and some story can really drive home what it is you're trying to do in terms of connection and get your point across for sure.
So I'd like to ask you, you are involved in so many fascinating research projects and ventures.
Perhaps the most intriguing is your effort to create new senses.
Can you tell us about this work and then discuss how new senses might impact our connection and communication with others?
I've always been really interested in this idea of can we pass information to the brain via unusual channels.
So I mentioned you got our eyes and our ears and our fingertips and our nose.
And we're very used to this.
And we sort of think these are fundamental.
But of course, this is just what we've inherited from a long road of evolution.
But it turns that you can push information in the brain in other ways.
And so in my lab we developed originally it was a vest that was covered with vibratory motors.
We've now shrunk this down to a wristband with a number of vibratory motors on it.
And we can pass very detailed information and through patterns of vibration on the skin.
So I spun this out of my lab.
It's a company called Neo Sensory.
We're now on wrists all over the world.
I'll give you just one quick example, which is for people who are deaf.
We capture sound on the wristband and it turns it into patterns of vibration on the skin.
And people who are deaf can come to hear the world, can have to understand what's going on around them.
Now, we actually have 70 different projects going on.
We're passing in new senses for people either who are missing a sense or who just want something extra like infrared vision or picking up on the stock market or whatever.
So anyway, we've got all these experiments.
But in answer to your question about how that can impact our communication and connection with others, one of the things that we're trying, you know, we have tried is many smart watches can measure all kinds of things like your heart rate, heart rate, variability, your galvanic skin response, all these
different things. So what we do is we pull that off the smartwatch.
We push that through the Internet and then to the wristband so that you are feeling, let's say, let's imagine you're wearing the smartwatch on one hand and you're feeling you're wearing the wristband on the other hand and you're feeling all these states of your body that are normally invisible to you,
like your galvanic skin response, so on.
OK, but that's not the interesting thing.
The interesting thing is your spouse wears the watch and you wear the wristband.
So you're feeling her physiology and you can be because it's through the Internet, you can be on the other side of the globe and you could, you know, call up and say, hey, you seem like you're stressed out or having a bad day.
Is everything OK? That kind of thing.
Now, I have no idea if this is going to be good for marriages or bad for marriages.
Yeah, I was just thinking that.
Yeah, yeah. It's probably a terrible idea.
But I'm very interested in all the experiments that we and others will be able to do with this in the near future.
Like what if you're wearing it at work?
What if your colleagues, you know, everyone's feeling each other's physiology now again, probably a terrible idea.
But I think there's many interesting things about connection and communication to be tried here over the coming years.
I find this, David, so fascinating and a use case for you to consider is, as all of us have become much more familiar with virtual communication through a variety of different tools, wouldn't it be fascinating if we could get some insight into our audiences in the way you're talking about haptically
through these sensations while we're in the midst of communicating?
Because all the feedback that we get, there are all these tools that will tell you talk time and how intense your voice is.
But it distracts you.
You have to look somewhere else.
You have to be distracted from it.
And yet, if I had something on my wrist just vibrating to give me that information in real time, I could make adjustments in a non -distracted way.
Yeah, you know, we've actually done a version of that.
That would only work for really, really big speakers.
But we have done this version where we can scrape Twitter in real time for any hashtag and then do an automated sentiment analysis, which is, say, are people tweeting negative or positive things about this with this hashtag?
And on the fly, you can feel what thousands of people are experiencing.
So this would probably only work for, like, a president or somebody who's giving a big live talk.
But during the talk, with a few seconds delay anyway, you could start feeling how the whole Twitter sphere is responding to you.
Oh my goodness. I don't know.
We have to be careful with that.
But fascinating, fascinating, you know, perhaps more than anyone I've interviewed before, you communicate in so many different ways.
Writing, television, lectures, and to so many different levels, academic peers, students, the general public.
Would you be willing to share a bit about your process for creating targeted, insightful communication?
Hmm. Yeah. You know, when I started in grad school, you know, I was I tried to write my papers in in such a way that the readers of the scientific papers would have some reason to care.
You know, I tried to avoid passive voice news, active verbs, and I chose beautiful words when the situation called for it and so on.
Even though this was an unusual choice for a science publication.
And my mentors really worked to beat that out of me.
They thought that it was ridiculous that I was writing in that way.
But but I kept at it and I still write my science papers in a way that I think people can digest more easily.
The science is exactly as rigorous, but I try to make it so that people care and they get analogies and they understand what's going on.
And so I think I would say generally my writing has a lot in common across all these different audiences, which is to say, you can't assume that anyone's going to care about your particular neuroscience study or whatever unless you do the work to give them a reason to care.
This highlights, you know, for the reader, this highlights something about your life or your favorite actor or the way to raise your kids or illuminate something about a historical event that you thought you understood, but there's a new layer to it or whatever.
But it can't just be, hey, I ran this experiment.
Here was the result.
And this is equally true across writing television and lectures.
It's equally true across academics and community communication to the general public.
Well, I have I have read many of your books and watched many of your lectures and shows.
And you you have an ability not only to make things that for me seem out of reach reachable, but you make them interesting.
And I think it's through what you're talking about, understanding your audience, making it relevant and connecting for sure.
I want to hit on one issue that you'd mentioned just briefly, but you've demonstrated today, and that is the use of analogies.
You use them a lot.
In fact, today, you talked about Star Wars.
And I'm curious to learn more about it.
In fact, in your latest book, the title Lived Wired is is actually a an analogy, too.
I'm curious if you can shed any insight not only to your use of analogies, but is there something in neuroscience that talks about the power of analogies?
You know, this is OK, great.
So this is generally one of the special ways in which human brains function very differently from computers.
So a computer, whatever you put into it, that just comes right back out.
It keeps one file separate from another.
But with human brains, you know, Romeo can say Juliet is like the sun.
And we understand that he means she's bright and beautiful.
Right. Transforms darkness to daylight and so on.
All the things that the sun does brains, human brains are particularly good at understanding the structure of things and then understanding, OK, this is like this.
So it's a very powerful way to get information in there because it's taking a path that people already understand and say, hey, look, this is how the new thing works as well.
You already understand this thing.
You already understand what it is to load a dishwasher or, you know, to see your friend's face or to drive to work or what else.
Something people get and then, hey, this thing is just like that.
This very complicated physics concept that you thought you would never understand.
Just think of it like this.
Bang. And then that is the way to get that bomb into the porthole.
Nice. A nice way of coming back to that analogy.
Yeah, I learned actually from one of my students how you can take analogies a little too far, but I totally agree that they're very helpful in communication.
We here in the US use a lot of sports analogies to explain things, especially in business.
It's a slam dunk, push it across the goal line, hit it out of the park.
But if you don't know those sports, you're in trouble.
And I had a student in the middle of a speech he was giving, give an analogy to cricket.
And you literally could hear crickets in the room because nobody knew how the sport was played.
And he stopped and looked at all of us and said, that's how I feel when you talk about American football.
And it was very powerful.
So analogies, I agree, are wonderful, but you just have to make sure that everybody has that pathway already that you're talking about.
So thank you for that and keep using the analogies.
They help me so much to learn what you're saying.
Before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me on this podcast.
Are you up for that?
Yep, let's do it. All right, question number one.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?
Leverage storytelling and don't use jargon.
Ah, nice. So we've talked a fair amount about storytelling.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the problems with jargon?
Yeah, I mean, this is what you see in grad school all the time is that, you know, a kid comes in, they feel intimidated by all their super smart professors and the people are sitting on their committee and they figure, okay, if I use all these jargony words, everyone's gonna think I'm so smart and I'm
so impressed, but it loses an audience for every jargony word you use, you lose half them.
So jargon can obfuscate the meaning.
See, like what I did there, I used a big jargony word.
It can get in the way of you really understanding what's being said.
And that's so true.
And I guess the challenge for many people is because we use some of those jargony terms all the time in what we do, we have to remember that not everybody else is part of that lexicon and we have to back off from using it for sure.
Yeah. And by the way, that is critical.
And I can tell you how I solved that in my books and my television, which is, yeah, I'm always crystal clear on who my audience is.
My audience is me when I was much younger and didn't know that word and didn't know that piece of jargon.
Oh, I like that. That's who I'm talking to you.
I'm going to steal that.
That's great. So instead of imagining necessarily who this amorphous audience is, just see yourself at a different time in your life.
I like it. Exactly.
And if that young person would think, oh my God, that's the coolest thing I ever heard, no idea.
Then you're there. You hit the bullseye.
Great. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
You know, for me, it was Carl Sagan because he spoke so genuinely and passionately about the things that he loved.
And I grew up in the mountains of New Mexico.
And aside from my parents, I didn't have a single example of what a science communicator was like, of what big ideas could look like and why they were beautiful and why they weren't things to be intimidated by, but to be madly attracted to.
And so I would say Carl Sagan single -handedly changed my trajectory in life.
And I just, I regret that, you know, he passed away a long time ago and I never met him, but he's the one that I admire.
In fact, I named my son's middle name, I named Sagan.
Oh, cool. What a tribute.
Yes, I think you and I are of similar vintage and Carl Sagan certainly was an amazing communicator for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, just on that vintage thing, I'll just mention I pulled up Cosmos on YouTube, you know, the original Sagan Cosmos and had my kids watch it and they loved it too because his stuff doesn't age.
Excellent. That's a good idea.
I need to get my kids watching some of that too.
Believe me, it's much better than what some of the other stuff they watch.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
You know, this is a very specific tangential one, but I feel like don't put words on slides unless you really need them.
So somehow everyone does these bullet lists on PowerPoint, and that's the worst thing you could possibly do.
And the reason is it's just very difficult for an audience member to listen to you and try to read what's written there at the same time.
So it's very distracting.
So just don't use words on slides.
I am going to take that sound bite that you just said, and I'm going to play it over and over again.
I've been saying that for years, but having a renowned neuroscientist say bullets kill, don't kill your audience with bullet points, is phenomenal.
Thank you. Did you have other ingredients to add?
Well, yes, I think I've already said that.
But you know, don't try to show off how smart you are by using big words and make it matter to people through storytelling.
Right. So it's about story.
It's about using language that can connect to people.
And it's about images in emotion, not just lists.
So excellent. That's going to turn, that recipe is going to turn into a great dish for sure.
Well, David, thank you so much.
Your insights into neuroscience, into storytelling, into connecting with others is fantastic and incredibly helpful and actionable.
And I guess I should end by saying may the force be with you since you use Star Wars as a great analogy for us.
You too, man. I really appreciate being here.
Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Produced by Stanford University's Graduate School of Business.
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