Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
If your relationship with food, eating and your body image feels like a constant fight which is all of us, by the way This episode is gonna change how you think about food, your body and your health.
Today, you and I are sitting down with Dr Rachel Goldman, a renowned clinical psychologist and professor at NYU, who's worked with thousands of patients dealing with emotional eating stress, obesity and body image.
And, in my opinion, Dr Goldman's insights are the missing piece in the conversation about weight and wellness.
And she's going to change the way you think about your body, your cravings and your ability to feel good again.
This episode is chock full of aha moments and specific takeaways, things that you can do.
You're going to walk away with tools to stop emotional eating, break the binge restrict cycle, Rebuild trust with your body using science-backed strategies that actually work so you can finally stop punishing yourself and start feeling good again.
Dr. Goldman isn't just talking about behavior.
She's breaking down the biology of what's really going on in your body, and then she's going to teach you how to heal.
So if you're tired of criticizing yourself, if you're tired of feeling helpless, confused or stuck, if you're tired of wondering what healthy even means anymore, this episode is for you or for someone you love who needs to rebuild trust with their body and make peace with food.
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
I am so excited that you're here.
I'm excited for our conversation.
It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you.
And if you're a new listener or you're here because someone shared this with you, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
I cannot wait for you to meet today's guest, Dr. Rachel Goldman.
Dr. Goldman is here to offer you a mind-body reset.
Dr. Goldman is a nationally recognized psychologist who specializes in the mind-body connection.
And for the past 12 years she's been a clinical professor of psychiatry at NYU, training the next generation of doctors.
She also runs a private practice in New York City where she works with thousands of patients on stress, emotional eating, disordered eating, obesity and behavior change.
She is also on the leadership board of the Obesity Society and the American Society of Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery.
Today, Dr Goldman is here to show you exactly how to rebuild trust with your body and make peace with food.
And before we start, real quick, I just wanna say something.
In this conversation today, we're gonna be talking about emotional eating, body image and the way that food can become a coping mechanism for you or for someone that you love.
And I just wanna say this upfront, even though you already know this.
If right now is not the time to listen to this, hit pause.
You can come back to this when you're ready.
I mean, zero pressure because you're probably already putting so much pressure on yourself.
But even if you're not going to listen, if there's someone in your life that you think that this could be an amazing resource for just take a moment and share it with them.
And whenever you're ready to come back and listen, I'll be here with Dr. Goldman waiting for you.
All right.
Without further ado, please help me welcome Dr. Rachel Goldman to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here with you today.
I am so excited to unpack all that you are going to teach us today.
And I want to start by asking you, how is my life going to change for the better?
If I take everything to heart that you are about to share with us and teach us, and all the very tactical things you're going to give us as resources and we use it in our life, how is my life going to change?
So actually, I want to give you kind of a glimpse of what that's going to feel like.
So let's just take a moment and take a breath right here, right now.
Just pausing is what many of us need.
We just have to pause and tune in.
So I always like to start by just taking a breath to like ground ourselves and reset.
Okay.
So can we do that together?
Absolutely.
Because I have a feeling that this is going to come full circle by the end of this.
And it has a huge connection to our relationship to our bodies and eating and our health and resetting.
Okay.
I'm in.
Okay.
Let's do it.
Okay.
What do I do?
So let's take a breath in through our nose.
Okay.
And out through our mouth.
Let's do another one.
Breath in and out.
Before I ask you how you feel, I want you now to repeat three things.
Okay.
I am in control.
I am confident.
I can do this.
And now how does that feel?
I feel present in the moment.
I felt my shoulders drop.
I feel oddly calm.
Amazing.
It feels really good.
And it makes, it feels so good in fact.
And I would imagine, if you're driving your car or you're on a walk, as you're with us right now, and you did that, In fact why don't you walk us through that one more time?
Because if you just listened and you didn't do it, I want to make sure you do it.
And don't just listen.
This is a doing podcast.
Okay, so walk us through it again.
So let's, if you're driving, keep your feet where they are.
Don't close your eyes.
Yes, exactly.
And if you're walking, obviously also keep your feet where they are.
But if you're seated, actually, let's put both feet flat on the floor.
Okay.
Let's really get into this.
Okay.
And now what we're going to do is we're going to take a breath in through our nose, but not yet.
When we do it, I want you to imagine a balloon in your stomach expanding.
We're going to, this is called diaphragmatic breathing.
Diaphragmatic breathing.
Okay.
So it's belly breathing.
Okay.
Yeah.
So we're going to take a breath in through our nose.
Okay.
As your belly expands.
And now breathe out through our mouth.
As we're breathing out, like we're blowing out through a straw and your belly goes back in.
We're going to do that again.
Let's take a breath in and out.
And now let's repeat again.
I am confident.
I am confident.
I am in control.
I am in control.
I can do this.
I can do this.
Correct.
And the power of breath work is that we can come back to it whenever we need to, whenever we want to.
My hope is that you will come away from this episode with a toolbox full of tools that you are able to pull from whenever you need to, if that be related to your relationship with food, eating your body, yourself or others.
Huh.
I can't wait to hear how this is connected to the weird relationships so many of us have with eating and our bodies.
Why, Dr. Goldman, do so many of us feel uncomfortable in our bodies?
Well, thanks to diet, culture and the society we live in, we have all been told messages telling us that we should should in quotes should be thin, or that we are striving for thinness, or we shouldn't be hungry, or we shouldn't be eating this or that.
And because of that we have all internalized those messages and we have learned to tie our worth to our body shape size, food behaviors, eating behaviors, et cetera.
Now, is this something that affects men and women like both?
Absolutely.
It affects everybody, but men just don't talk about it as much.
So I actually feel that a lot of men are struggling in silence when it comes to body image, eating behaviors, food-related things.
Does everybody have a weird relationship with their body and food and eating?
So I think it's complicated.
And I think everybody at some point in their life has a different relationship or a complicated relationship with their body, eating and food.
Okay.
Like.
I think, if we all think back to different times in our life, there was probably a time that we struggled with how we felt in our body or thinking about food in a different way.
Well, let's talk about the mind-body connection.
Why is it so important to understand the mind-body connection when it comes to weight gain, when it comes to eating habits and when it comes to your overall health.
So it's all related.
It is?
Absolutely.
I thought it was just you're hungry or you stress eat or like it's all related?
Everything is related.
So if we think about it like our sleep, like if you slept well last night, you are probably listening right now with a completely different mindset than if you didn't sleep well.
That's true.
Yeah.
And if you slept well, you may have chosen to eat something more nourishing in the morning, as opposed to maybe grabbing the quick thing or even skipping breakfast, right?
So sleeping, eating, mood, stress or stress management, movement, it is all related.
Sleeping, eating, mood, stress management, and movement.
Those five things are all related.
All related.
Well, it makes a lot of sense because I think about when you said if you get a bad night's sleep, it changes everything.
And now imagine waking up with the thought, oh my God, I didn't sleep well.
What am I going to do?
How am I going to get through the day?
I can't do it.
Yes.
So now we're going to put the mindset into it.
So now you woke up with a thought and that thought is gonna impact how you feel.
That emotion then impacts what you do.
So you wake up, oh my God, what am I gonna do?
I can't do this.
I might be like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, I don't feel good.
I'm gonna lay back in bed and I'm not gonna get up today.
And it now becomes this cycle of our thoughts, emotions, and behaviors are all linked.
Thoughts, emotion, and behaviors are all linked.
All linked.
And that brings me to this topic that I cannot wait to talk to you about, which is emotional eating.
Yeah.
Because it seems like that's what a lot of us are struggling with.
It feels like the core issue is that our emotions are really driving our eating patterns and our health habits.
Right.
Our emotions drive a lot.
So can you unpack that connection for us?
Yeah.
So first, I want to actually tie it back to the beginning for a moment.
Okay.
About that breath.
Because really what that breath was taking a pause.
That pause is going to allow us to respond and not react out of emotion.
Just pausing is allowing us to respond.
So when people participate in emotional eating, which I also want to clarify.
Emotional eating, first of all, is so common.
What is it?
So it is simply eating out of any emotion. not just sadness, not just feeling down.
It could be anything.
It could be boredom.
It could be happy.
It could be sad, stressed, any emotion, anger.
It is turning to food as a way to soothe yourself when you are having an emotion.
So there's a difference between physiological hunger and emotional eating.
So as a psychologist, what is the difference between hunger versus emotional eating?
Yeah, so hunger is something we all have.
We all need to eat to survive.
The physiological hunger is it is time to eat.
I need to nourish my body.
I can't survive without food.
Emotional eating is I'm feeling something.
I become impulsive.
I grab food and I eat it.
It's serving a purpose.
So food, like anything in life, serves a purpose, right?
When we're hungry, it's serving the purpose of physiologically feeding us.
When we're emotional, it's emotionally feeding us.
It's filling something.
In the moment, it feels good.
Yes.
In a way, it's a distraction, but not a solution.
Can you give me some examples and give some examples for the person who's with us right now of what that means in terms of what are the sorts of emotional needs you're filling with food?
Yeah.
Like when I grab the potato chips while I'm watching television, when I'm mindlessly shoving the MMs in my mouth, like what's happening here.
Yeah, so a few different things.
For one it could be, and again, very common it could be you're watching TV and you're eating potato chips mindlessly.
It could be just an association that now became a habit, right?
Lots of people sit on the couch, especially in the evenings, watching TV, watching a movie, and they're used to.
Their brain is now used to the automatic of I'm going to eat, I'm going to do something with my hands, right?
But the first time that happened, it was not automatic.
Right.
There was a reason that you turned to those potato chips.
Got it.
So what you're basically saying is for me, it's popcorn.
There's a particular popcorn I really like that's made locally by me.
And when I am about to watch TV, I now have a habit of going to the snack drawer, pulling it open, grabbing the bag.
They're in these small little bags.
So I feel like I can just Tunnel right through.
I feel more in control.
Yes.
I then go to the couch and I sit down and you're right.
It's become a habit.
I don't really feel anything, but I would imagine I probably did it the first time I was home alone.
Yes.
You're nodding like, of course you did, Mel.
Yeah, I've heard this.
Yeah, it's so common.
Yeah, you were probably either home alone, feeling lonely, or you had a really tough day.
And I hear this often from moms also, like, the kids are asleep.
Like, I'm finally able to have a moment to myself.
And that moment becomes enjoying some kind of food. but we're not really enjoying it.
We're mindlessly eating it.
Like I joke sometimes I could give you cardboard like halfway through eating it.
I could swap it out and you probably wouldn't know.
But the first time it started, it was for a reason.
It served a purpose.
And now what purpose is it serving?
That's the question.
Is it bringing joy?
Great.
If it's bringing joy and you feel good and you feel in control, we don't have to change it.
But if it's causing distress...
If you're feeling bad about it, if you feel guilt or shame, that's a problem.
And again, that comes back to the thoughts.
So what I often say is it's not the behavior itself that matters.
It's the thought that follows the behavior.
So give me an example.
Yeah.
So you eat your popcorn.
Yes.
Great.
You're going to go into it like, I got my popcorn.
I'm going to sit down.
I'm going to enjoy it.
I'm going to feel good.
The thought following eating, it's probably like, wow, that was really good.
Or you don't even think about it.
Like it happened, you're done.
Well, you know, if I'm being honest, because I'm now really clinging on every word that I love the taste of this.
It's like super, super salty and amazing and local.
I might have to get some later.
But I don't need to eat the whole bag.
Right.
And I could easily treat myself to a handful and then be done.
And the thought that always happens for me, as there's about 11 kernels left in the bottom of the clear plastic bag, is why did I eat that whole thing?
Like I wasn't even hungry.
Like I could have just, like why did I eat the whole thing?
Right.
And then what do you do with that thought usually?
The next thing is, well, I'm a problem solver.
So the next thing is, well, I'm not gonna do this tomorrow night.
I'm going to be good tomorrow.
I got to be good tomorrow.
Right.
Yes.
So the thought that followed the behavior.
Yes.
So it's not about the popcorn.
The popcorn did nothing wrong, right?
It's not about the popcorn.
The thought that followed you eating the popcorn is where we can tell if this is problematic or not.
So if you're beating yourself up or judging yourself.
Then it's not worth it.
Like why eat the popcorn then?
Or eat less of the popcorn.
So what do you hear from people in your practice?
What are some common things that people say to themselves, so that the person who's with us can really start to realize how subtle but destructive this is?
So very similar to what you said.
It's kind of like, why did I eat the whole thing?
What's wrong with me?
I felt so out of control.
I'm not going to do this again tomorrow.
Beating themselves up, feeling guilty, feeling shame or like I'm never going to be able to do this.
I failed.
I'm never going to lose weight if that's their goal.
What's wrong with me?
So first of all, nothing's wrong with you.
This is so common.
Nothing is wrong with you.
And the first step is awareness.
So identifying that like, wow, this doesn't feel good.
I actually beat myself up over it.
And then it impacts what I eat the next day, right?
And then it becomes that vicious cycle again.
And then maybe you restrict, then maybe you overeat, then maybe you skip a meal, then maybe you binge.
It keeps going until we can find, let's pause.
What's really happening right now?
What do you think the biggest misconception people have about emotional eating?
What is it?
I think one is that something's wrong with you if you participate in it, which again, so many people like I would be shocked.
If there was somebody listening that was like I don't know anything she's talking about.
Like I've never done that.
I've done it.
We've all done it.
So I think that's probably the number one is that something is wrong with you if you do this.
Nothing is wrong with you.
It's about identifying that if this is a problem to you, if it doesn't feel good, what's going on?
Like, why did I turn to this food at this time?
So something I often tell people is if you find yourself in the kitchen opening and closing cabinets or opening and closing the refrigerator, You mean like every night after dinner.
Yes.
Well, it's telling us we're searching for something specific.
So...
What I would tell people to do is pause and say, what's going on right now?
And then I would ask, did I just eat?
When is the last time I ate?
What did I eat?
Sometimes you may have just had dinner, but it wasn't satisfying enough because you were restricting.
So maybe you didn't add enough substance to your food to feel not just physiologically full, but like emotionally satisfied.
Right.
And then you can also ask if you're like, no, I just ate.
It was satisfying this and that.
Okay, what's going on?
Oh, did I?
Oh, I had a really tough day at work.
Oh, I'm feeling stressed.
Oh, I had this stressful phone call.
I'm sad.
I'm lonely.
And then to kind of dig deeper and be curious about yourself and what you're feeling right now.
I want to make sure that you heard those three questions.
So let me just repeat them back to you.
So you're in the kitchen, you're opening up the drawers, you're looking for something.
You hit the pause.
Which is hard.
Which is hard.
Yes.
But this is what you're teaching us.
The first thing you ask yourself is, when's the last time I ate?
Right.
And then you ask yourself, was it satisfying?
And then the third thing that you ask yourself is, what's going on right now?
Exactly.
And what am I actually looking for?
Right.
And that makes you go a little deeper, because what is going on and what you're looking for is likely not in the fridge or the cabinets or the freezer.
Exactly.
And if you're physiologically hungry, you want to be opening and closing.
You would open the refrigerator, see the bowl of fruit, you eat the fruit.
Okay, wait.
Right.
So I just want to, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm starting to get this.
When you are truly hungry, meaning physiologically you need fuel.
You're going to eat whatever's there.
You're right.
I don't, I don't, I like open, grab in mouth.
Yeah.
Like you're running out the door, but I know I need food.
I'm just going to grab what I see and I'm going to go.
You don't think too much about it.
Yeah, so that's a big way to differentiate it.
So also physiological hunger comes on more gradually.
Like, oh, it's almost lunchtime.
Oh, I can wait 10 more minutes to eat.
Emotional hunger is like, I am hungry and I need something right now to satisfy me.
But I may mistake it for actual hunger.
Exactly.
Okay, so one of the big differences that you see, as a psychologist, between physical hunger and emotional hunger is that physical hunger comes on more gradually.
Right.
We're as emotional as like, I need it now.
Like right now.
Like I just had a really stressful call and oh my God, I'm craving something.
And it's usually high fat sweets, comfort foods.
Okay.
Again, as opposed to, oh, lunch is soon.
No big deal.
I can wait 15 minutes.
It's so true.
Big difference.
It's so true.
Yeah.
How does stress... affect how, when, and what you eat?
Yeah.
So back to the mind-body connection, right?
Stress.
If we think about stress, it's our body's natural way of responding to some kind of threat or something that seems threatening to us.
So now stress though, I'm sure people have heard of the fight or flight response.
That is the way that our body, what our body does in response to stress.
So we can all like relate to it.
You know, maybe sweaty palms, maybe our mind racing, our heart beating really fast.
Again, mind-body connection.
I think something is stressful.
I'm interpreting it as stressful.
My body is gonna automatically go into this auto drive and help me get through this really stressful time.
Now, when that happens, The stress hormone cortisol, among other ones, is released when we're really stressed, in the moment.
A lot of times our appetite is suppressed.
For some people, it's the complete opposite, right?
But like right, when it happens, the appetite's suppressed and we're like oh, I can get through the day.
I don't need to eat.
I'm forgetting to eat because I'm so busy.
I'm stressed.
But then when it kind of dies off and it starts like us returning to a homeostasis, back to our baseline, it could be like, oh my God, I'm so hungry.
Right.
So that's why, when people go through really stressful times, you hear people either say like oh my God, I ate so much.
I can't stop eating emotional eating.
Right.
Or like, oh, my God, I forgot to eat.
That makes a lot of sense.
It can go either way.
So what are three ways to address emotions and stress when your default mode is to start emotionally eating?
So back to the pause.
Okay.
Right.
So because of this conversation, hopefully people are a little bit more aware.
And then we can say pause and let's check in with ourself.
What is going on right now?
Let's also not forget to be kind to ourselves, right?
Like we all participate in this.
We all get stressed.
Life happens.
So let's just remind ourselves that this is okay.
And then what can I do about it?
And I always love talking about what I call your coping toolbox.
Great.
Like let's pull from that coping toolbox.
Give me a tool.
Yes.
One is something internal.
You don't need anybody else for it.
You don't need anything else for it.
That's like the breathing exercise.
Could also be a different type of relaxation exercise like imagery or meditation, things like that.
Then at least two others.
And the reason I want more than one is because if my go-to coping tool was to go on a run, for instance, I can't just leave right here and go running in the middle of a stressful moment.
So we need to have a few options, because not only is not all of the coping tools always readily available to us, but they may also not work for every stressful situation.
Okay.
So the first tool is we have the breathing exercise.
In through the nose, blow out the straw, the belly breathing.
We got that.
The three of those.
Yes.
Okay.
What's the next one?
So I don't like to tell you what should be in your toolbox.
Okay.
Because if you're not a runner, that's not going to be helpful.
I'm definitely not going for a run.
Right.
I would.
No, definitely not.
So it's not going to be helpful for me to tell you to put running in your toolbox.
That's true.
Right?
So we have to take a moment and think okay, when I am stressed, what do I see myself actually doing?
Taking a walk.
A 10-minute walk.
Yes.
Great reset for me.
And I love that you said that because my running slash my walking is that.
It's getting outside, getting fresh air, moving my body.
What's another one we could add in your toolbox?
So I don't emotionally eat.
Yeah.
Put a lock on the fridge?
I don't know.
Like, how do I, what do I do?
The key is escape.
Like, get out of the kitchen.
Got it.
So what's, like, maybe get into a book, right?
What is a good distraction?
That's not eating unless you're physiologically hungry.
Right.
That's going to get you out of the kitchen for a few minutes because usually it's about 10 minutes.
Do something else for 10 minutes.
And when I tell people, if you really are still thinking about the food, go for it.
There's nothing wrong with eating the popcorn or the ice cream or the chocolate, but it's how you eat it.
Taking the pause and mindfully eating your popcorn and enjoying it is very different than I'm stressed and I'm just gonna eat and watch TV, right.
It's so different.
It's about how you eat it.
And if you take the 10 minute walk, come back and you're like, I really want my popcorn.
You're probably going to eat the popcorn slower.
I might pour it into a cup.
Exactly.
Instead of just sticking my hands in the bag.
Right.
You're going to enjoy it.
And you're probably not.
I can't guarantee, but you're probably not going to beat yourself up over it afterwards, because it wasn't an automatic, impulsive act.
You broke the automatic right there.
So this is like a 10-minute rule for emotional eating.
If you can give yourself a 10-minute buffer- It could be less.
Maybe less for people that are a little stronger than Mel Robbins, like it could be less.
But like if I, I can see how this would work though.
Because some of the things that you've already taught us is that emotional eating you're reacting.
You need it now.
It's often mindless.
And then there's the cycle where you beat yourself up.
But if I can either take a couple deep breaths or go out for a walk or walk away- and come back in 10 minutes.
Now I'm responding intentionally.
Right.
You're telling yourself like, I want this and that's okay.
Yes.
I do it all the time.
Like all my clients know I have ice cream almost every night.
You do?
I do.
Almost every night.
Okay.
What flavor?
I love it.
It depends on what we have in the house that night, but I love it.
And I know that I'm going to eat it and I'm going to enjoy it.
And it's amazing.
And I don't care.
The thought doesn't come up that I'm beating myself up over it.
Because you're choosing to do it because you like it, versus mindlessly standing there because you had a terrible day at work.
Yes.
I also wait to have it until the kids are asleep.
I can enjoy it without chaos.
Because again, it could be the TV.
It could be something.
We're like, oh my God, did I even eat that?
I didn't enjoy it.
Let me go get more.
But if we can sit down and enjoy it and eat it slowly...
It's like giving your body what it needs at that time and that's okay.
So emotional eating when you struggle with it.
I think a lot of us make the mistake of thinking it's about willpower.
It's not at all.
What is this about?
It's about tuning inward and actually taking that pause.
And emotional eating is, I like to actually relate it to children.
When a child has a tantrum, that's their impulsive reaction.
Yep.
They, I mean, most of us might say we need a timeout, right?
For a kid.
What's a timeout really do?
It's the pause.
That's all it is.
So we need an adult timeout.
Kids are reacting out of their emotion.
We are also reacting out of our emotion, but just in different ways.
I want to pivot a little bit and now go a layer deeper.
And let's talk about disordered eating.
As a psychologist, how would you describe what is disordered eating and how is it different than just emotional eating?
Yeah.
So there's disordered eating, disordered eating behaviors, disordered eating thoughts.
Okay.
And then there's eating disorders.
What's the difference?
Two different categories.
Yeah.
So eating disorders are things like anorexia, bulimia, binge eating disorder.
Okay.
Which are disorders in the DSM, which is the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is we joke, it's our Bible in psychology.
Okay.
So they have a specific set of criteria that you have to meet in order to be diagnosed with this disorder.
Disordered eating, I think, is much more common.
And I think most people struggle with some sort of disordered eating, disordered eating thoughts, disordered eating behaviors or their relationship with food.
That could be things like emotional eating.
It's not in the DSM as a full diagnosed eating disorder.
It could also be grazing.
So grazing behaviors is like just picking on food all day.
It's different than like three meals and two little snacks.
That's very different.
That's planned.
Grazing is like, I'm going to get up and have a little bit of this.
A few minutes later, I get up a little bit of that.
That's a little disordered.
It's not the way that we graze. quote, should be eating regularly throughout the day, right?
Also restrictive eating, not necessarily meeting criteria for anorexia, let's say could be disordered, right.
Like.
If somebody skips meals often, then that can become problematic because it might lead to overeating or binge eating later.
Right,
There's a lot of disordered eating around, food thoughts, behaviors that again, I think is much more common than we think.
What are some examples of disordered thoughts about eating?
So one of them would be labeling foods good and bad, right?
I actually really like to help people get away from that.
Okay.
Food is food.
Yes, some have more nutrients than others.
Some are going to satisfy us differently than others.
But there is nothing wrong with this food versus this food.
All or nothing thinking related to food, I tend to say is that's kind of a dieter's mentality.
It's like, I eat a cookie, I might as well eat the whole box.
I'm bad now because I eat the cookie, right?
You're not bad because you eat the cookie.
You wanted the cookie, you eat the cookie.
So we have to actually get away from that all or nothing thinking and introduce more of a flexible thinking or flexible mindset.
I would love to kind of take some of the big ones that you mentioned and go kind of line by line.
And I'm interested in this because I definitely see this as a pattern in myself in terms of the emotional eating.
Both of our daughters have struggled with this and are very open about it.
And I think this is incredibly common.
So let's start with restricting.
What are the three biggest warning signs that you're crossing a line that you think it's important that we're aware of?
So the first one I would say is preoccupation with eating, food, body shape or size.
What do you mean?
Being consumed too much in terms of your thoughts and your feelings related to food, body shape or size, like preoccupation with that.
It is consuming your day, right?
So like you wake up and it's the first thing you think about, right?
You're looking in the mirror, a lot things like that, like very much- consuming your brain and your diet.
It's taking over your diet is the first thing I would be like, wait a minute, what's going on here?
And so if you're somebody who all day long, you pass a mirror and you're like, I hate how I look.
I'm fat.
This.
You're noticing how your pants are like tight.
You're this.
You see how everybody else is smaller than you.
And that's what you're talking about?
Yes, exactly.
Okay.
So that's warning sign number one. rigid rules around food.
Like I can only eat at this time.
You know, I often hear this like, well, it's not 10 o'clock in the morning.
I can't eat until 10 o'clock.
Or, you know, I have to eat this way or I can only eat organic or gluten-free, things like that.
Like very rigid rules.
Again getting away from that all or nothing thinking.
We're now thinking more all or nothing, right.
Like I have to eat this way, I can't go out to eat, right?
Things like that.
Which brings me to the third one is it starts impacting your daily functioning.
It's causing you distress and maybe you're now isolating.
Maybe you're late to work because of it.
Maybe you're skipping meetings that have food involved, things like that.
I would say those are the three things I would first be on the lookout for.
And if anybody listening is struggling with any of that, I think, just let this be a sign that there's nothing wrong with you.
But maybe it's time to seek professional help or speak to somebody.
Aren't a lot of people scared to seek help because you don't want to gain weight or you feel like you can't get control of this and there's a lot of shame in it?
And I'm saying this from hearing the thousands of clients that I've worked with that people are afraid to seek help because they are afraid of gaining weight.
And what does that mean?
And what people often miss is that eating regularly throughout the day doesn't mean you're gonna gain weight.
You might gain energy, you might gain nourishment, you might gain clarity, and it comes down to trust though, and trusting that your body knows what it needs, and to give back that trust.
Because I think the diet world, diets have told us not to trust.
Our bodies, have told us that you can't eat at this time or you can't eat this.
And a lot of people have now lost trust in their own bodies.
And we have to take that step back and be kind to ourselves and be like okay, maybe this is what I need, right.
Our bodies are always communicating to us.
Again, back to the mind-body connection.
Our bodies are always sending us signals, but we live in a go, go go world that we just ignore them or we miss them.
So for somebody that's struggling to lose weight, I think the knee-jerk assumption is okay.
I got to get a trainer.
I got to get a nutritionist.
As a psychologist, what's the piece that's missing that you may not have considered in terms of resetting your health and feeling more in control?
So getting a trainer or a nutritionist are great.
And I think a big part of it is people just assume they have to eat less.
And that's not the answer.
No.
Oftentimes eating less restricting, for instance, then leads to overeating later.
Oh.
And when you end up eating under what your body needs, it ends up holding on to its fat cells.
It's like in survival mode back to now, it's all related back to the stress response.
Your body is going to hold on to whatever it has because you're starving it.
So it's not going to lose weight.
It's actually in survival mode.
So are you saying, as a psychologist, that you've had patients come in who are struggling with losing weight and they are overweight and they are very unhappy and that the stress and the restricting of calories is actually keeping them overweight?
It could be.
Okay.
I mean, there's the biology.
It's part of the piece of it?
Yes, it's part of the biology.
Absolutely.
Wow.
Yes.
Oftentimes people say, I don't understand why I can't lose weight.
I don't eat or I don't eat it.
You know, I barely eat, but that's actually the problem. are part of the problem.
And why is that part of the problem?
Because if you're not eating it could be leading to later.
You're so hungry that you eat the first thing.
You see kind of emotional eating impulsive reactive, or you overeat.
And then the stress response in the cortisol is then keeping you in this survival mode, because I have to survive.
What do you do When you are concerned about somebody in your life because you are seeing the restrictive behavior or you are seeing the thoughts that are disordered and very judgmental?
What do you do if this is somebody you deeply care about?
Yeah, so I think it depends on the relationship you have with them.
But the first thing you could do is talk to them about it, but not about it.
How do you do that?
Like ask, like, how have you been lately?
I've noticed you're.
Maybe they have lower energy or maybe they're missing meetings or missing appointments or canceling on you.
Like find something like that and make it, like use I statements though.
Like I'm concerned about you.
I noticed.
So taking that judgment away, taking the assumptions away.
I notice you've been missing meetings or you've been canceling on our dinner parties, whatever it is.
Like, I'm concerned.
Is everything okay?
Open-ended questions and I statements.
Okay.
But if you're going to ask a question, be prepared to listen.
Most people listen, but don't really hear, right?
So like really genuinely listen to what they have to say and be open-minded.
What if you get just like nothing?
So you could then let it go for now and you could try again at another time.
But it also depends on the circumstance.
So, like you don't want to bring up a sensitive topic like this when you're in a crowded place, when you or the other person are already emotional, right?
Like you want a neutral place.
Ideally, I would actually say like on a walk.
Okay.
Right.
Like as you're moving your bodies, it's easier to come up and like share emotional things.
But you could, again, just kind of check in on somebody.
And if you needed to, you could be.
You know, I've noticed whenever we go out, you're just picking on your food.
Like, you know, is everything okay?
Right.
You don't want to assume there could be a medical situation going on also.
Right.
We don't want to assume that what's going on is an eating disorder necessarily.
Right.
Wow, if you're anything like me right now, you're probably already thinking about someone you love who really needs to hear everything that Dr Goldman is sharing.
Maybe it's your friend who's constantly on and off a diet.
Maybe it's your mom who you would love it if she could make peace with food and with her body.
Or maybe it's your adult daughter who's quietly struggling, second guessing everything they eat, criticizing how they look.
I mean, you've done everything you can to try and help.
Dr. Rachel Goldman might just be the exact person she will listen to.
So thank you for sharing this.
Thank you for trusting yourself.
Thank you for giving this resource to people that you care about.
While Dr Goldman and I take a quick break.
Thank you for sharing it with the people that you care about, while you listen to these amazing sponsors and don't go anywhere.
There's so much more we're going to dig into when we return.
So stay with me.
Welcome back, it's your buddy Mel Robbins.
Today, the amazing Dr Goldman is here to remind you that you can rebuild trust with your body and change your relationship with food.
So Dr. Goldman, let's keep going.
You know.
One thing I wanted to ask is, as a psychologist, what do you believe the line is between being health conscious whether it's like counting macros exercising, avoiding processed food, like all that stuff versus slipping into disordered behavior?
What's the line there?
So, you know, there's actually a term, orthorexia.
O-R-T-H-O-R-E-X-I-A.
Okay.
Orthorexia.
Okay.
It was actually first introduced in 1996, okay?
We've only started hearing about it in media in the past 10-ish, 15 years.
And I think it has almost skyrocketed because of the things we're talking about.
So what orthorexia is is when something healthy becomes an obsession, but related to food and eating and body shape size.
So, with all the gluten sensitivities and the allergies or somebody wanting to go organic sounds like oh, that could be healthy for you.
Sure.
Yes.
You want to be a little more health conscious?
Sure.
Go for it.
Right.
But now it becomes an obsession and now it becomes this rigid thinking and rigid lifestyle.
Right.
And I think the reason that we're seeing more of this is because of social media.
I've said that before.
I will say it again.
The comparison, the what I ate in a day, like really, did you really just only eat that today?
Right?
All of that.
Or somebody decided to go gluten-free and now you're looking at their body and you're looking at their skin and they're like well, like it worked for them.
It must work for me.
I'll do it.
Right.
But nobody should be going gluten-free unless they have a legit gluten sensitivity and spoke to a doctor about it.
Why?
Well, we all need the same reason like we shouldn't be cutting carbs completely.
We all need all of these nutrients and all of these food categories in order to have a balanced diet.
Can you limit a little?
Can you minimize a little?
Sure, we all can.
Should we have more protein than carbs?
Of course we should.
But in completely eliminating any one food group, I think it's a sign that you have too rigid thinking related to your food.
Unless you've had a doctor say that there's a sensitivity.
So for you as a psychologist, when you talk about orthorexia and how this disordered eating has skyrocketed in the last decade.
What is the line between very positive, healthy changes, being conscientious planning, you know, like really being careful about what you eat but still allowing yourself to enjoy yourself, versus it slipping into something like orthorexia, what you just described at being able to enjoy yourself?
It's about the mindset.
Am I nourishing my body and finding joy and it feels good?
Or am I rigid and restricting because I feel like I have to?
Like I can't eat.
This is very different than I don't want to eat this, because I'm choosing to not have a glass of wine with dinner, because I really want the dessert later.
Like that's a healthy balance, let's say, right?
Versus I can't have this.
Because I ate it yesterday, or I can't have this because I'm going to feel like I'm gaining weight or I feel a certain way afterwards.
Right,
Again, the thought that follows the behavior, but what's the purpose?
Am I eating because we're at lunch and we're enjoying food, or am I not eating because I'm restricting and have rigid thinking about food?
Got it.
Got it.
So it does come back to the thing you've said at the very beginning the thought, the emotion, the behavior.
Absolutely.
Because one of the things that I care deeply about is that people do feel better in their lives, that they do prioritize their health.
And there's a lot of incredible content out there.
I particularly love the stuff that is now educating women around resistance training and eating breakfast and getting protein.
And for so long, the message was the opposite, that you're going to get big if you go to the gym.
You're going to get big if you eat three solid meals a day.
And what I'm also recognizing as we're talking is all of those harmful messages around restricting and create real hunger, and it screws up your body in terms of your metabolism and your body's designed to be fueled consistently and in a certain way.
That's how it works.
And when you stop putting fuel in the tank, the car doesn't drive the way it's supposed to.
And then when you overfill it.
So it makes a lot of sense.
But I think so many of us have been conditioned by the media, by examples around us, by culture that we're supposed to look a certain way.
And when we don't, we torture ourselves.
Right.
Right?
Like something's wrong with you.
Yes.
Or like you don't have willpower.
Yes.
Like, oh my gosh, I had breakfast.
What's wrong with me?
Like, no, you need to eat.
You need to have breakfast.
What would be the warning sign for you that you've gone from somebody who's doing like really good health conscious things to take care of yourself?
What are the warning signs that this is now slipping into orthorexia?
Yeah.
So one of the key criterias of any diagnosable disorder, which orthorexic is not in the DSM.
Do you think it should be?
Yes.
So it falls under the category of other specified eating disorders, which it's like a catch-all for anything that kind of like doesn't meet full criteria yet.
Okay.
So, but because it's not there yet, I still believe this.
Anything that is causing you distress, it's now crossed over.
If it is impacting in your daily functioning or it is causing you distress, it is probably crossed over.
And by distress, what do you mean?
So for instance, well, you know what?
We'll use the example of somebody going to the gym every day and all of a sudden they have to miss a day because of a work event.
And all day they're like, oh my God, I miss the gym.
I miss the gym.
Like it becomes an obsessive thought.
Yes.
Like, oh my gosh, what's wrong with me?
And like, you can't get out of that cycle.
Gotcha.
Right?
Or you like isolate yourself, right?
Like, I'm not going to go to this meeting.
I'm not going to go to this birthday dinner because I can't eat what's there.
I'm nervous about what is going to be...
What about weighing your food?
Right.
So yes, also weighing your food, weighing yourself too much, right?
So I think there's a happy medium and I don't think there's an answer in terms of how often you should for any of this.
I think weighing your food once every once in a while to like get an idea of oh, what really is six ounces of this, could be helpful.
But now you know, you don't need to do it again, right?
Same with your weight.
Like you weighed yourself once today, or even once this week, you don't need to weigh yourself five minutes later, 10 minutes later, after you ate today tomorrow, every day.
So it's all about, you know, it's so tricky because there's the gray area.
Right.
But I think it's important to talk about, and here's why.
It happens quickly.
Yes.
That somebody slides through the gray area into something that is now way more dangerous.
Right.
And-
You want to, I think, catch it in yourself or catch it in the people that you love, before you're now talking about an inpatient or outpatient program.
Absolutely.
And one thing we can all do to help minimize this, not just within ourselves, but with others, is not comment on body shape and size, or what people are eating.
Like right there, you gave the example before, like, oh, you look so good.
You've lost weight.
Right.
Well, we don't know what they're doing to lose weight.
Right.
Like, did they restrict?
Are they purging?
We don't know what they're doing.
But what we did was we just reinforced that behavior.
Whatever you're doing, silently we're saying keep doing it.
So, in other words, compliment people on something other than what their body looks like and what their appearance looks like.
Right.
Like, I love your glasses.
Well, thank you.
I love your maroon suit.
Thank you so much.
I almost said it looks fantastic on you, but now I'm like, I can't do that.
No, you can say that.
Because it's about the suit.
It's not you.
Right.
What do you do at family dinner if you've got somebody in your family that has an issue?
So it depends where they are on this.
Like, is it an open?
Let's take it in, like, if it's like, it's start, like, in the beginning.
Like you haven't spoken about it yet.
Yeah, well, talk to us through the three phases.
Right.
So you haven't spoken about it yet.
It's not like a known thing that's an issue.
Okay.
But you think it might be an issue.
Yes.
You want to model good, healthy eating behaviors and things around food and eating.
Okay.
So like, for instance, I would if it was me.
I'd be like wow, this is so good.
Whatever it is, I'm eating.
Wow, you want to try it?
You want to have some of mine?
You want to share?
Yeah.
So just kind of like encourage and open the door for like, wow, this is good.
Or wow, I feel so good when I eat this.
Oh, I was, you know, I really felt like I needed something to nourish my body.
So make it a little bit about you, but they're listening.
Okay.
Right.
Also, depending on the age of the child, because it depends on that too you could offer more options, right?
Like, oh, you don't want to eat that.
Can I make this for you?
Right?
So kind of offer more options.
You can also include them in the kitchen.
This is a fun way to get younger kids or any age a little bit more involved, right?
Oh, you know what?
You didn't like what I made for dinner last night.
Let's go to the supermarket together.
Let's find something that's going to be really good for you, right?
Or that's going to make you feel good.
I also think when kids are picky, because we hear this a lot now, picky eaters.
Yep.
If they're eating something, just go with it for now.
Okay.
What if the person at the table is overeating, emotional eating?
So it's funny because I tend to look at all of this through a different lens now that I'm a mom.
Yes.
Because the tendency is like, are you sure you want a second helping?
Right.
You really need dessert?
Like you say these things you don't mean to say these things you're trying to say.
So we have to pause.
Okay.
And think, would I want someone to say that to me?
No, I wouldn't.
Right?
Yeah.
So what I say to my son, for instance, is, let's just pause.
Let's check in.
So like he'll also have his little ice cream every night.
Before he finishes the first cup, he's ready for the second cup.
He's like, all right, mom, I'm ready for seconds.
And I'm like, let's just pause.
Mm-hmm. let's just take a few minutes.
So it actually takes time for our brain and our stomach again mind-body connection to connect, to send the signal that we're full.
So when we're mindlessly eating and we get up for seconds and we overeat oftentimes not everyone, but oftentimes it's like oh oh, my God, I eat so much.
But you were so hungry in the moment, but it's because you didn't give time for your body to to enjoy the food, react and be like.
I think I'm full.
I think I'm good.
How much time does it take?
About 20 minutes, people say, but like 10 to 20 minutes, let's say.
Do you have a recommendation for how much we should be chewing our food to slow ourselves down?
Yes.
Oh, I love that question because I do.
So I always recommend if this was your utensil, you take a bite.
This is hard to do, I have to admit.
You take a bite, you put it down, you don't touch it.
Chew, chew, chew your food until there's nothing left in your mouth.
Like chew it like- Like there's nothing left.
Like chew it, not like- I don't even know if I've ever done that.
Wait, you chew it till it's gone?
Yes, I know.
Does it just slide down the back as you're chewing?
I've always chewed it to swallow it.
I know.
Chew it until it becomes a liquid?
Kind of.
I mean, but chew it, chew it, chew it.
Imagine a raisin.
How long does it take you to eat dinner?
I'm usually the slowest because I do this, but you can enjoy your food and then you're like oh, I kind of am a little hungry still.
Or you know what?
I think I'm good.
One more bite or whatever it is.
So you're allowing your body to digest the food and actually feel that.
That would completely change.
Yeah.
How I eat.
I'm gonna try that at lunch today.
I can predict what's gonna happen.
What is gonna happen?
You're gonna eat less and feel satisfied sooner and realize, wow, I could save the rest for later.
Or I don't need to finish it all.
I'm feeling okay right now.
Or let me wait a few minutes and then I'll see if I want another bite.
And you're gonna enjoy the food.
So there's actually, with mindful eating, there's an exercise called the reason exercise.
It's quite amazing.
You take one reason, or one almond, or one piece of chocolate and you go through this whole exercise, but you put in your mouth.
You don't chew it yet.
You just put in your mouth.
You enjoy like what it feels like, the texture, and then you chew it.
And I joke that, like you just enjoyed a raisin, as opposed to, like most of us, just a box of raisins and you swallow.
So you will enjoy food and the flavor in a whole different way if you actually mindfully eat and slow down.
I love that as a tool.
What did you call that thing?
The raisin?
It's the raisin exercise.
So the raisin exercise is a way to mindfully eat?
It's like an exercise to teach yourself how to participate in mindful eating.
Well, I could see how simply doing the fork rule of putting down the fork and chewing your food until it's liquid.
I don't even know how to do it.
I'm going to try that at lunch today.
Yeah.
And doing the raisin exercise, of just eating one raisin at a time, would completely change your relationship to eating and to food.
Well, for you, it's with popcorn.
Let's try that tonight.
Wow, okay, I will.
I am learning so much from you.
I wish I knew this decades ago.
I'm sure you're thinking the same thing.
And here's what I want to do.
I want to take a quick second.
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And if what Dr Goldman is sharing has been resonating with you, I guarantee you it's going to resonate with people that you care about too.
Your sister, your partner, maybe a parent, or maybe this is something you can share to somebody that you're dating or a friend of yours to help explain what you're going through.
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Welcome back.
It's your buddy Mel Robbins.
And where are we going next?
This is where it all starts to click.
Now that we've unpacked the emotional side of eating the guilt, the stress, the shame it's time to talk about the cycle so many of us are stuck in with NYU's Dr Rachel Goldman.
Let's talk about the binge restricting cycle and how those things can be related, because for a lot of our listeners, restriction can be the beginning, but it then escalates into what you've been talking about, which is binging and purging or just overeating and then getting mad at yourself and then restricting.
So why don't you unpack that for us?
What causes the restrict then binge cycle and how can you break it?
So it could have started for many different reasons, right?
The restricting.
It could be a comment that you heard.
It could be you looking in the mirror that day and feel like you look a certain way and like oh, now I can't eat.
That misconception of let's just eat less, right?
Not the answer.
So it could start that way.
And then you go hours without eating.
And then you realize, wow, I'm hungry, but now it's impulsive.
It's reactive.
It's emotional.
You might overeat because you're so hungry.
You can't get it in fast enough almost.
And then like, oh my gosh, I just overate.
Oh, I have to skip my meal or I'm going to purge.
So it becomes this vicious cycle and we have to break the cycle somewhere.
And it's hard.
How do you do it?
Yeah, it's hard.
You actually have to eat.
If you're binging, you have to eat?
Not then.
But for instance, let's give an example of somebody binged in the evening, right?
This is common.
People will participate in like night eating, right?
Which there's night eating syndrome or night eating disorder, which is that you're consuming most of your calories, say in the later evening hours, after dinner, right.
And or you're waking up in the middle of the night and eating, but aware of it.
Okay.
Because that's different from there's a sleep disorder that's also related to eating.
Okay.
So a lot of people that overeat or binge eat, it happens in the later evening.
Why?
You're busy all day.
You're working.
You're skipping meals.
You're not really realizing you're hungry.
And now all of a sudden your body is relaxing.
Okay.
You have that space and you're listening to your body.
You're like, oh my God, I'm hungry, right?
And, or there's the shame that some people have.
Some people, yes, correct.
So say you binge eat in the evening or overeat, and there is a difference.
But say- What's the difference between binging and overeating?
Yeah, so overeating, I like to use the example of it's Thanksgiving.
It's a holiday meal.
We really enjoy the food that's there.
You want seconds, you overeat a little.
That's okay, right?
We've all done it.
Like at your favorite restaurant, you're like, oh, it's so good.
I want to eat more.
That's overeating.
Happens every once in a while.
You're not beating yourself up over it.
Not a big deal.
It happens occasionally.
Binge eating has that shame and guilt tied to it, right?
So you are overeating in a way that is also feels uncontrollable.
So the binge eating piece is there's a loss of control.
Got it.
Okay.
So let's go back to now you're binging in the evening.
Now you're going to wake up actually not hungry, most likely, right?
You are still full.
Your body did not have time to digest.
I know I said before like 20-ish minutes to make the connection, but you just ate.
You're laying down.
It doesn't feel good.
You might have reflux.
You might feel bloated, all those yucky feelings that you might have.
But then you wake up feeling that way and you're like, oh, I can't eat.
I'm not hungry.
Or I can't eat because I just ate so much last night.
I need to restrict, right?
The key is to actually eat something.
It doesn't have to be a lot.
It could be something small, but start that, break that cycle right now.
Get rid of the restricting.
So it could be a few bites of something.
It could even be like if you really feel like you can't put something in.
It could be like a few sips of a smoothie or a protein shake.
Okay.
But something.
What does that do if you, instead of restricting, you have just a little something instead?
So you're breaking that cycle.
You're nourishing your body.
And it's actually a form of self-care.
Like eating is a form of self-care.
We are taking time out of our day to nourish ourselves.
And what I'm gathering is the more that you are in this cycle of I was bad yesterday so I got to be good, and good means restricting the more you stay in that cycle, because then you're going to be bad again because you were trying to be good by restricting.
Absolutely.
And so it's the restricting that is the direct cause of this cycle of then getting out of control.
Right.
That's fascinating.
Right.
And the restricting makes us think about food all the time, which is like that term food noise that we keep hearing about.
Yep.
So restricting is now going to make your brain think about food all the time, because it's what it wants.
So you're thinking, when can I eat?
When can I eat?
What can I eat?
What did I eat?
Did I eat too little?
Did I eat too much?
And now it's consuming your day.
So you're restricting the behavior of eating.
But now your brain is like all food.
It is all you're thinking about.
That's so true.
Yeah.
That when you restrict, you actually expand the amount of thoughts that you have about food.
Right.
All day.
Until you can get home tonight privately and say binge or overeat.
You know, one way I see this play out, especially for women, is that we skip breakfast.
And then we're chugging a coffee, and then we exercise on an empty stomach and then we try to be good.
And then we end up like just the wheels come off at night.
Right.
Can you, as a psychologist who specializes in this, talk about how skipping breakfast can lead to emotional eating?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So first, coffee isn't breakfast, but I hear it all the time.
So breakfast- Even if you put whole milk in it.
It's not breakfast.
Okay.
Right?
I mean, yes.
Could it be filling?
Of course.
Sometimes, is it okay?
Of course.
I always say it's what we do on most days.
On most days, are you skipping breakfast?
That could be a problem.
Okay.
Every once in a while, sure.
No big deal.
But how does skipping breakfast lead to emotional eating?
So like the restricting-
The skipping breakfast could lead to overeating later.
But before we even get there, say you had a really stressful phone call or something stressful happened or you're just emotional, for whatever reason it is.
And now you are craving, searching for that food.
So you are more likely to not be able to pause and do the things we said if you're also physiologically hungry on top of the emotional hunger.
That's true.
Yes.
So eating regularly throughout the day is going to kind of give you this baseline.
So now, when stress happens, it's like all right, I can pause.
But emotional hunger, physiological hunger, it's not impossible, but it is so hard because your body needs something and it's craving something on top of that.
So the key is to eat regularly throughout the day, nourish your body.
So, as a psychologist who specializes in the mind-body connection, what do you recommend that women should eat, in the morning in particular?
So you might not like my answer, but it's what are you likely to eat?
Let's go back to the basics.
Okay.
Right?
I could tell you to eat eggs and avocado and whole wheat toast.
I mean, that sounds delicious to me right now.
But if you're not going to eat that, it's the same thing as putting running in your toolbox.
It is not going to help you.
So we can just start with the basics.
If you're like, the only thing I will eat is a muffin...
Eat your muffin but know that an hour later you might still be hungry because there was no protein, right?
I'm not a dietician, but that is a fact.
Well, why do you say protein?
Like what is it about having protein in the morning that helps you be in a healthier relationship with food?
So I think we should have protein with all of our meals.
Okay.
But some people say breakfast is the most important meal of the day.
What do you think as a psychologist?
Right.
So it's the most important meal of the day in a way that it's setting you up for success for the day.
It's not about the breakfast.
It's about starting your day participating in this self-care behavior of I'm going to sit down, take time out of my day to nourish my body.
So you're setting up that positive cycle for yourself.
They're all important.
Food is important.
So it doesn't matter if it's breakfast, lunch, dinner.
I think they're all important.
I get your point though about breakfast because it's a lot like having a good morning routine.
It sets you, how you wake up is how the day ends up.
Absolutely.
And if you're running on an empty stomach and caffeine and you have a stressful day, your entire day is just gonna get worse.
Right.
But if you take the conscious moment and that act of self-care, and you have a breakfast, and you're even saying, not a nutritionist, but as a psychologist, having something that is more satiating, that has protein in it, it just sets you up differently.
Exactly, because of the mind-body connection.
And how does having something with protein or that's more satiating impact the mind-body connection?
So when you feel satisfied and you're not hungry, you're not thinking about food.
All the time you're able to focus, you're able to concentrate.
You'll be able to feel energy.
Now, maybe you're going to have more energy in that workout class, right?
You're going to be able to focus at work and you're not distracted by food food food, food here until it's like, probably about time to have lunch.
It's so true.
I'm just sitting here thinking that we had this huge thing that we're doing this week here at work.
And so a bunch of us were here working on something until like 1030 at night last night.
The old me a decade ago would have just gone to bed probably been stressed and not gone to bed till after midnight.
I would have then woken up late and raced over here with a cup of coffee and just dove right into it.
And instead I went to bed And I got up and exercised.
I ate something before I exercised.
That's a trick that I learned from another expert here.
Amazing.
And then I had a full breakfast eggs avocado, bacon like the whole deal before I came here because I knew I had a huge day today at work and probably another late night.
Right.
And I feel different.
I haven't thought about food since, and we've been talking for a long time, two hours.
Yeah.
Because you eat. this morning and nourished your body and brain with what it needed.
Wow.
Well, this is new, I think, for a lot of women because of just the social conditioning to skip breakfast exercise on an empty stomach because the world is telling you you're supposed to be skinny.
I wish I had known this 40 years ago.
And a lot of people are like, yay, I have willpower.
I was able to get through the day without eating, but instead let's reverse that.
Yay, I took the time for myself and I had breakfast.
Yes.
Yay, I feel great.
Yes.
So one of the things that you've also specialized in is the treatment of obesity.
And I would love to have you talk a little bit about the GLP-1s that are available now.
And what is your take on how to be body positive and not shame yourself and use the tools like GLP-1 for weight loss?
Yeah, this is a hot topic.
So I think a lot of people think if you're body positive, you can't be doing something.
To quote change your body.
And I say quote because we're not really changing our body.
Our bodies are what they are.
But GLP-1s are medications that are indicated for two diseases, diabetes and or obesity.
Those are medical conditions.
They are diseases and they are available to treat them.
So you can be body positive and love your body and accept your body and know that you need a treatment to become healthier.
It's about health.
We need to get away from this idea that it is a weight loss medication.
Like I don't like that term for it.
GLP-1s are not weight loss medications.
They are anti-obesity, anti-diabetes medications or treatments available for these conditions.
And if we stop calling them weight loss medications, I think we're also able to start breaking that stigma and shame that some people have for going on them.
But you can be on this journey.
I like to think of it as a journey.
We are all on a journey of body acceptance because of the world we live in.
We are on a journey of body acceptance.
We can accept our body and know that there's things I can do that's going to help me become healthier.
One of them is like eating breakfast.
Right.
One of them can be taking or being on a GLP-1, right?
Yeah.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Are they a good tool for emotional eating or disordered eating?
Like, how can they help somebody or do they help somebody if you're not dealing with the disease of obesity?
You're dealing with disordered eating, disordered thoughts, being in a cycle.
Yeah.
So I think it depends on each individual and their history with their relationship with eating, if they had an eating disorder, things like that.
But GLP-1s work by limiting the amount of food that people eat.
So they get full faster, But it also allows people, so this term food noise becomes quieter.
What does the term food noise mean?
So food noise is the constant excessive obsessive thoughts related to food and eating.
So kind of like what we were talking about before, right?
It's this constant chatter all day of what am I eating?
What am I eating?
Did I eat enough?
When's my next meal?
Some people have that all the time.
Wow, that would blow.
It's hard.
Yeah.
When people are on GLP-1s.
For the most part most of my clients say the food noise is not completely gone, but it has quieted.
That's amazing.
It's like a volume being turned on.
It's incredible.
It absolutely is incredible.
It allows space. for other things.
So when you ask the question about GLP-1s for emotional eating, I think so.
GLP-1s can quiet the food noise, which helps control the emotional eating.
It helps take back some of that control.
But GLP-1s are not working on the mindset.
It's working on the brain in a way in terms of the reward center, because that's like decreasing those cravings.
But it's not changing the mindset.
It's not changing your habits.
Is that why when people go off them, they gain the weight back?
Well, for many reasons, yeah.
I mean GLP-1, if it's a treatment for obesity.
Obesity is a recurring complex, chronic disease that has to be treated and managed for the rest of your life.
Okay.
So if you have obesity and you're on the medication, you need to be doing something to be managing that obesity regardless.
So if you come off the medicine... which most people probably won't.
Yep.
It's like hypertension.
If they have the disease of obesity.
Exactly.
I've heard you say that GLP-1s are not a diet.
What do you mean by that?
Right.
So GLP-1s for people that have the disease of obesity are not a diet, is a treatment option that is available for people with diabetes or obesity.
Absolutely.
It is a great tool, like absolutely great.
My clients.
I think people have found hope that have lost hope, because it really puts them on an even playing field.
So, if you choose to make healthy choices with your food and you choose to go to the gym, The person who was struggling with obesity maybe was doing the same thing, but their weight wasn't moving.
Yeah, their body wasn't responding.
Biologically, correct.
Which is why the GLP-1 works, because it's got a biological intervention for a disease that is affecting your biology.
Exactly.
But when do you, as a psychologist that has specialized in working with people struggling with the disease of obesity, when are you going?
You're using a GLP-1 as a diet.
Right.
So the person that wants to lose five or 10 pounds is going on the medication like pre-wedding right.
Like before a wedding, you go on some crash diet, you lose weight.
To me, that's a diet.
It's not sustainable.
So it's short-lived.
Maybe it's a band-aid, maybe it's temporary for you, but it's not making lasting changes.
So, and that's also why with GLP-1s, Also, the lifestyle changes are very important.
The mindset work is very important.
Working with a dietician and like somebody like myself, a psychologist or a behavioral health expert, is very important to learn about what is healthy, how to nourish your body, and to also work on the mindset and those habits and those automatic behaviors we were talking about.
You're the first person I've ever heard say that there's a lot of people using GLP-1s as a crash diet.
Yeah.
And it makes perfect sense because back in the day People would starve themselves before a wedding to try to get into the dress.
And then as soon as the wedding is over, your habits are back.
And that's what you're seeing with people that are doing the mail order and microdosing this stuff.
They lose some weight and then they get off it.
And then it comes right back because, to your point as a psychologist specializing this, it's just another crash diet.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Whoa.
It's temporary for something.
You're going to lose the weight.
You're going to get off of it.
But nothing really changed.
Because you didn't change the habits related to the mind-body connection.
Exactly.
That are part of the eating cycle that's not working for your body.
Right.
You don't work on the thoughts, right?
That relationship with food and your body is still the same.
You still are beating yourself up over eating breakfast, for instance.
That didn't change.
You just took something that made you eat less, so you lost weight.
Wow.
That makes so much sense.
What are the do's and don'ts?
If there's somebody in your life and you're worried about them, whether it's because they're carrying too much weight or you're starting to see some of the signs of disordered eating Yeah,
So, similar to what we were talking about before with children, we want to be mindful and very sensitive to this.
It is a sensitive topic.
We can't judge.
We can't assume.
So like I said that I'm curious as a provider, we want to be curious.
We want to ask open-ended questions.
We want to say I'm concerned, right?
And try to gain that trust to open the door is the first thing.
Okay.
And validate their feelings.
So many people gained weight during the pandemic, for instance.
Let's normalize it.
This is tough.
And people gain weight during stressful times.
So it's about how we present it.
So language is powerful, not just the words we use, but also the way we present it, the tone.
Are we being curious and mindful and compassionate?
Or are we accusing somebody of something?
But I also want to say, don't be afraid to have the conversation if you're really concerned.
Sometimes we have to have hard conversations and that's okay.
But again, be prepared for it.
Actually listen.
Maybe be ready with some advice, right?
Or with some solutions to help provide solutions together.
Don't come with the answers though.
For instance what I would do.
I would almost have like some therapist's names and info in my pocket.
Like, oh, actually I looked into this.
Like, can I help you get a therapist?
I heard about this doctor.
Can I help connect you?
But they have to be ready.
And I have a feeling that this conversation is going to be one that a lot of people send to people in their life who they're concerned about.
Yeah.
And so could you speak directly to a person who's listening, that has been struggling with either their weight or they've recognizing that, their relationship to food, or the disordered thoughts or the cycle of purging and binging and good and bad, and just beating themselves up.
Can you talk to that person about what's possible?
Yeah.
So I want to say it's not your fault. and you're not alone.
So many people struggle, and it's okay.
This awareness, this aha moment is going to make you pause and think, what can I do differently?
And help is available.
There are people out there friends supports resources, doctors that want to help you, and it's not your fault.
Is it really possible to rebuild trust in yourself and with your body after years or, in a lot of cases, decades of shame and dieting and just feeling out of control?
It is.
It is possible.
But the key is not to think it's going to happen like a drastic change overnight.
Nothing like that's a diet right.
The big drastic change is a diet.
It's the small steps.
So I actually talk about this a lot in my book, that it's tweaks.
I like to use the word tweak instead of change.
Change is overwhelming.
Nobody wants to change anything, but we can all make a tweak.
So if we make small tweaks and actually start doing them, they add up.
Like I love it when my clients say to me like I feel like I didn't change anything, but wow, I'm sleeping better.
I have more energy.
That's when we do it.
If it is too hard, we aren't going to do it.
So if I told you I want you to start eating three meals a day today, two snacks, go to the gym, do this, do that.
I already forgot the first one.
I was just going to say, I lost, like, I already lost you.
I know.
So if the person makes one tweak today out of everything that you have shared, what is the most important tweak that you want someone to make?
I want you to pause and give yourself credit for where you are and remind yourself that you aren't broken and nothing's wrong with you.
Because if you're able to do that, you're then going to be able to take the next step And be kind to yourself and know that you deserve help, if you need help or you matter.
So many people put themselves on the back burner.
I don't matter.
It doesn't matter.
It's fine.
It's fine.
I have kids, whatever.
But no, if you are not taking care of yourself, we can't show up to be the best us.
So that pause and that reminder that you matter is everything.
Well, what's also great about the pause being the one tweak you take is that it's where you have to start, because your entire process book what you do with patients and have been doing for decades.
The thing you began our conversation with is teaching yourself how to stop reacting emotionally to everything and to stop reacting to the destructive thoughts that you have.
Right.
And take a breath in through the nose, out through the mouth.
And that little boundary of between you and your emotions and you and the world and you and your stress is where you will find a different response.
Right.
It all starts with that pause.
Yeah.
Dr. Rachel Goldman, what are your parting words?
It's scary when we feel like we lost control, but we can hit the reset button right here, right now.
We don't have to wait till Monday.
We don't have to wait for the new year.
Right now, there's no reason to wait.
We can all make a small tweak.
We can all pause right now.
Well, I just want to say thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for the work that you do.
Thank you for being here with us in our Boston studios.
Thank you for filling the toolbox with a lot of tools that we can reach for.
And I know it's going to make a huge difference.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for everything doing what you're doing and for allowing me to be here with you to share all of this.
Well, of course, glad you came.
And I'm glad you came too.
Thank you for making the time to listen to or watch this.
And I know that this is gonna be an incredible resource for people that you care about, that you maybe haven't been able to talk to.
You don't know how to bring it up.
Let Dr. Goldman talk to them.
That's what this conversation could be for you.
So thank you for listening.
Thank you for learning.
Thank you for sharing this with people that you care about.
And, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life.
And if you just take that one tweak of the pause, that one small change and making that a habit is going to help you create a better life, because you're going to feel more in control of how you respond to it.
Alrighty, I will see you in the very next episode.
I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
I'll see you there.
All right.
I love this.
We're going to kill this.
Okay.
Obesity and body image.
Sorry.
Lots of water in my mouth today.
Here we go.
Hold on.
Sorry.
That was the chicken salad.
Sorry about that.
And here I am burping in the middle of an eating episode.
Okay.
Well, I look at my notes all the time.
I don't know why we think we should go through life without notes.
Yeah.
Okay, you did dynamite.
Walking out and like, that was so sweet.
So amazing.
But that was just like, I don't know, that was a moment.
Oh, and one more thing.
And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language.
You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
I'm just your friend.
I am not a licensed therapist.
And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.
Got it?
Good.
I'll see you in the next episode.
