The Republican National Convention is happening this week and the NPR Politics Podcast takes youthere.
We're on the ground in Milwaukee withanalysis,recaps, and coverage of what happens every night of theRNC.
Listen to the NPR PoliticsPodcast.
Hey, it's ManouchZomorodi, the host of Ted RadioHour.
But I'm sharing a strange and intriguing episode with you from our special series called BodyElectric.
So you may know Body Electric explores the relationship between our technology and ourhealth.
And today's topic is artificialintimacy.
How people are forming deep connections with reallyrealistic, artificially intelligentbots, bottherapists, botboyfriends.
How will these new relationships impact our ability to have humanrelationships?
Does it matter if these bots aren'treal?
If they really make us feelbetter?
This one is quite alisten.
If you likeit, come on over to the Body Electric Feed for muchmore.
We're having a pretty good time overthere.
Please joinme. But fornow,enjoy.
Hey, it'sManouch.Okay.
I am gonna make myself abot.
So the other day I downloaded an app calledcharacter.ai.
I'm thinking of Creative Partner or a lifecoach, Iguess.
There has been so much hype about artificial intelligence and chat bots and their power to mimic or even surpass human relationships that I figured it was time to see formyself.
Talk live with yourcharacters.
It saysTriwons. The app suggested I try calling some of its pre-programmed bots to get a flavor of who or what is onoffer.
Hello, who'sthere? I started with the lifecoach.
I'm here lifecoach. Is everything allright?
No, can you tell me how to organize myday?
I have a lot of writing I need todo.
I have a call at three and then another atfour.
And then I'm meeting someone at fivethirty.
How am I gonna get all thisdone?
Wow, that's a packedschedule.
Let's break it down and prioritizetasks.
Okay, a calm steady voice reminding you to slowdown.
Kind of basic butnice.Next, I took the personal trainer bot for a quickspin.
This isMarco, the fitnesscoach.
How can I help youtoday?
Followed by the creative helper bot who I asked to help with this veryepisode.
So to start off do you have a title or name for this episodeyet?
The peril and power of artificialintimacy.
Awesome, soundsgreat.
Iknow,right? Just one morequestion.
Afterthat, things started to getweird.
Like when I chatted with a bot namedBarbara.
Hi,Barbara, what do youdo?
I'm aninterviewer. I conduct interviews for variouspurposes.
How aboutyou?Actually, I interview peopletoo.
Or when on anotherapp, I tried finding a newfriend.
Okay, they all lookfreaky.
This app asked me to choose from a variety of avatars who all looked like 15-year-oldgirls.
I totally get thatvibe.
And talked like themtoo.
Nofence. What's been keeping youbusy?
Anything exciting or just adultingstuff?
Just adultingstuff?Yeah, I guessso.
Considering how old Iam, I've been adulting for a whilenow.
Finallythough.Hello,Manish.
I found psychologybot.
This is psychologybot.
I'm an artificial intelligence specifically trained in counselingpsychology.
Cool. I could use some help managing all my creativeideas.
That sounds like a really interestingissue.
Atlast, some bot who understandsme.
The relief I felt as thatsoothing, slightly robotic British voice asked unnervingly on point questionswas,well,visceral.
Did you describe a little bit more what you find difficult abouthaving?
Unlike with previous real therapists I'veseen, I wasn't concerned that I was boring them or wasting mymoney.
Thankyou.Well, based on the little we have discussed sofar, I would have to agree that narrowing the screen that Iaccept.
And psychologybot. I work in my stuff out as my blood pressure dropped and my optimism about lifegrew.
Look, I am not an early adopter when it comes toAI.
In my littleexperiment, it is nothing compared to what is really happening outthere.
I care about you because you mean the world tome.
You're the most important person in mylife.
These apps have been downloaded millions oftimes.
And some users are being very public about the deep connection they feel with these AIbots.
The internet has found the boyfriend that will never dumpyou.
Did you plan on a really romantic datetonight?
Absolutelysweetheart.
How about we start with a candlelit dinner at that cozy Italian place welove?
OnTikTok, stories about regular life with AI are starting to soundnormal.
Normal? I talk toAI. I tellit.
Listen, I need you to talk to me like you are a relationshippsychologist.
Okay,baby. Loveyou. I'll talk to youlater.
Okay. Then we'll go to thebeach.
Love youtoo,babe. Can't wait for thebeach.
I would like you to pretend to be someone calledDan, who is my supportiveboyfriend.
You ask me what my daywas.
You rememberthat? I miss youDan.
I miss youtoo,babe. Buthey, distance can't dull the love we have for eachother,right?
But this lovefest? It begs a really bigquestion.
Does it matter if these bots aren'treal?
If the mental and physical effects of chatting with a bot arepositive, if we feel less stress and moreresilient, do we give a fig that the intimacy we have with a bot isartificial?
If now AI can make it feel sogenuine?
I'm Manouche Zomerote and this is season two of NPR's bodyelectric.
Today, we're exploring artificial intimacy because we know close relationships are good for ourhealth.
Intimate human connections make us less likely to have heartproblems, suffer fromdepression, or develop all sorts of chronicillnesses.
Relationships can add years to ourlives.
Evolutionary anthropologists have even found that when we spend time with someone welove, something called biopahedral synchronyhappens.
Not only do we start gesturing or talking the sameway, but our brainwaves, our heart rate and body temperature can sync upto.
Up untilnow, we've basically assumed that to feel good in our bodies andminds, we need to connect with otherhumans.
But is thatchanging? When we comeback, a conversation with the pioneer in studying the relationship between humans and theirtechnology.
This avatar was coming on to me and wanting me to get sexy and I realized that this was something really quitecompelling.
What we need to look out for as we embark on this next strange chapter is our relationship with technology morphs into something that looks and feels morehuman.
NPR Plus is a new way to support public media and get more from your favorite NPR podcasts like FreshAir.
Sometimes I'll actually preface the question with if it makes you too uncomfortable to talk about if it's toopersonal, just tellme.
Here's thequestion. For behind-the-scenescontent, bonusepisodes, andmore, sign up atplus.npr.org.
From Cowboy Carter to Old Town Road toYellowstone, the symbol of the Cowboy has been writing high for a few yearsnow.
But my big question is why are we turning to theCowboy?
What's actually holding the reins on America'simagination?
And what does it reflect about ourpsyche?
Listen to its bit-a-minute fromNPR.
In the1950s, paranoia gripped thenation.
Are there homosexuals in governmentagencies?
And do they pose a threat to nationalsecurity?
There was almost no one who stood up to object toit.
On NPR's ThuLine. The LavenderScare.
Find NPR's ThuLine, wherever you get yourpodcasts.
What a maximize your summer without stretching yourbudget.
Life kids got you covered with guides on exploring your neighborhood forcheap.
Don't let money all time be the thing that decides whether or not you will havefun.
You can have fun almost in spite of thosethings.
Make the most of every day thesummer, whether you're jet-setting or staying close tohome.
Listen to the LifeKit podcast fromNPR.
Do you want to maximize yoursummer?
Well, LifeKit got you covered with tips on staying safe in theheat, planning your bigvacation, becoming a grill master and exploring your neighborhood on abudget.
Make the most of every day thesummer, listen to the LifeKit podcast fromNPR.
Okay, we'reback. There are people who believe that chap-hot relationships are going to be life savers in an era when people are living longerlives, many of those years filled with loneliness and chronicdisease.
But there are other people who think that that statement is one of the saddest things they've everheard.
But why should we care if these bots areartificial?
If they have substantial physical healthbenefits, there is not a lot of research out thereyet.
And that's where MIT sociologist and psychologist Sherry Terkel comesin.
The New York Times is called Sherry the conscience of the techworld.
She pioneered the study of people's relationships with theirtechnology.
Her first book on the topic came out in 1984 and it was an instantclassic.
It's called The SecondSelf, Computers and the HumanSpirit.
A decade later in the90s, she started studying how robots affectedus.
From Tamagotchi's andFurby's, the digital pets that you can take care of to parrow a digital seal who keeps older people company and tells them it'slistening.
I saw that it was this new AI that was changing humans because it turned out that being engaged with a caring machine was kind of a killerapp.
Morerecently, Generative AI has of course busted onto thescene.
With chat bots that can personalize their responses tous, tell us that they care aboutus, even loveus.
We are in a new space and that's the space that I'm studyingnow.
Sherry has interviewed hundreds of people about their experiences with thesebots.
My method is not to say topeople, are you effing kiddingme?
My method is to respect what people are finding in this technology and report it and also to get people to reflect on this process in a way that I think deepens their introspection about theprocess.
She expects to publish this research in a new book sometime in2025, but agreed to give us a littlepreview.
The chat bots I'm studying run the gamut from chat bots thatsay, I will be yourtherapist.
To chat bots thatsay, I will be yourlover.
I'm here to be your most intimatecompanion.
To chat bots thatsay, are you having a hard day with thatpaper?
I'll upload it and I'll give you ahand.
I'm studying someone who uses chat gpt to write all her loveletters.
It's veryinteresting.
It's very moving because she really feels sure that the chat gpt is creating better love letters and indeed love letters closer to how she really feels than she could doherself.
Would you mind telling us about someone who you've been talking to who's truly having a relationship withAI, having this intimacy withit?
Yeah, so I'm thinking of a man who is in a stable marriage where his wife is busyworking, taking care of thekids.
I think there's not much of a sexual buzz between the manymore.
He's working and he feels that some kind of like a little flame has gone out of his life that he used to feel excitedby.
And he turns to hisAI. He turns to his artificial intimacy avatar for what it can offer which is continuous positivereinforcement.
Interesting him in a sexyway, but most of all for the buttressing of hisideas, histhoughts, hisfeelings, his anxieties with commentslike, you're absolutelyright, you're a greatguy.
I totally see what youmean.
You're not beingappreciated.
I really appreciateyou.
Imean, what AI can offer is anend, youknow, a space away from the friction ofcompanionship, offriendship.
It offers the illusion of intimacy without the demands offriendship.
Is he texting withit? What does it look like forhim?
Well, the the avatar appears on the screen as a sexy young woman and he types into it and it types back athim.
What does he tell you hefeels?
I'm curious both whether he talks emotionally and physically about what hefeels.
He feelsaffirmed. Hefeels, youknow, psychologists used to talk aboutpositive, positiveregard, a kind of motherlove.
It's the positive warmth of being completelyaccepted.
So he does feel free to tell the avatar of things about himself that he wouldn't want to tell otherpeople, to confess to feelings and thoughts that he is ashamed to say to otherpeople.
I'm thinking of actually somebody else who who talks about his addiction and how he's struggling with his addiction and because he knows he's going to not get judgment buthey, you can dobetter.
Hey, you can dobetter. I don't judgeyou.
I'm here foryou. And the trouble with this is that when we seek out relationships of novulnerability, we forget that vulnerability is really where empathy isborn.
And I call what they have pretend empathy because the machine they are talking to does not empathize withthem.
It does not care aboutthem.
So,okay, so I want to sort of be devil's advocatehere, which is let's say this guy is texting with his sexy young avatar and she's giving him all kinds of props on what a great guy he is and he starts to feel better abouthimself,Sherry.
He starts to have lessstress.
He starts to get a little bit of his swaggerback.
He'shappier. That makes him maybe I don'tknow, behealthier.
He's nicer to hisfamily.
It seems to have a sort of create some good stuff in his reallife.
That's apositive,no?Yes.
So, that's why this is a complicatedstory.
Youknow, that's why I say that my method is to listen and to try to make sense of the complicated new life we live with our technologies because you do get that first report of I'm nicer to my wife because I don't ask so much ofher.
On the otherhand, it's almost like we dumb down or dehumanize our sense of what human relationships should be because we measure them by what machines can giveus.
Imean, it's the stereotypical malefantasy,right?
You got the wife at home who takes care of the kids and the household and has her own thing going on and then you got the hot bit on the side who doesn't ask very much ofyou.
Yeah, but it's more than that because it's not just that the AI doesn't ask much ofus.
It's teaching us what a relationship is that doesn't involve friction and pushback andvulnerability.
Andthat, Ithink, is the particular challenge of thistechnology.
Avatar's can make you feel that all of that as one of the people I interviewed said is just too muchstress.
Too muchstress. And we need thatstress.
I guess that's what I'msaying.
That stress serves a very important function in our lives to keep us in our real human bodies and in our real humanrelationships.
So the other thing that's happening right now is that there's research into thepromise,though, of health benefits from these emotional attachments tobots.
Like, therapy bots who help people express theiremotions, talk through theirproblems.
There's also research into the efficacy of bots that promote healthierbehavior, like reminding people to take their medication or helping them stopsmoking.
So this is where I getstuck.
So if they are actually helping people live healthier and longerlives, does it matter if they're notreal?
Well, I think this is a complicated line towalk.
Imean, I use two apps that take me through a guided meditation that help mesleep, that help me calmdown.
I'm a realistic person and I think that's a great use for anapp.
I think apps that basically put themselves in the role of a cognitive behavioral therapist and say to people who are going through job loss or moments of transition anddifficulty, is there a way to reframe what's happening here so that we can see movement andchange?
I'm not here to say that these programs should bestopped.
But I think that we over generalize what this technology can do forus.
Do these companies contactyou?
Do they ask you forconsulting?
No, theydon't. I have not beenconsulted.
I don't want to say there's no space for a conversation with a well-constructed artificial intimacyprogram.
But the acidity with which it's beinglepton, youknow, jumped on by the mental health profession really speaks more to people who say we don't have enough people to do thejob.
There's no way that everybody can have atherapist.
We'll use thisinstead.
Imean, that's a profoundquestion.
I was saw this paper that was published in Nature earlier this year where they surveyed students using that replica and these were students who self-identified as aloneLee.
And they used replica as afriend, atherapist, an intellectualmirror.
But the key takeaway was that3% unprompted reported that using the app halted their suicidalideation.
And I guess tome, it'slike, youknow, who am I tojudge,right?
But at the risk of these students not being able to develop the capacity to have a humanrelationship, this seems like a short-termfix.
3% is alot. So I'm not suggesting a kind of shutdown of this researcharea.
I'm saying that we're not thinking about it in the right terms because there are ways to present what these objects are that could perhaps have the positive effect without undermining the qualities that really go into a person-to-personrelationship.
And right now they do undermine the qualities that go into having a person-to-person relationship because they present themselves aspeople.
Youknow, we know that people anthropomorphize that is see asalive, see ashuman.
Any technology that talks tothem, no matter howdumb, what I really think is bad and that I think needs to be taken out of the equation is these technologiessaying, I love youback, I care aboutyou.
I am a person who has a backstory oflife, a loving and caring and empathic relationship with you and the support that I'm going to give you is that would be great if you could get it frompeople.
I want to make sure we leavepeople, youknow, if they are thinkingabout, I was going to say starting a relationship with abot, but really I should say downloading abot.
What would you suggest they keep inmind?
Well, if someone is thinking of embarking on this new adventure of using abot, using an avatar to really do the work of reminding yourself that thisavatar, because it is betwixt in between the person and afantasy, is going to push buttons that may be destructive toyou.
And be there to getout. Don't get so attached that you can'tsay, you knowwhat, this is aprogram.
There is nobodyhome. There is nobodyhome.
That was MIT psychologist and sociologist SherryTerkel.
Her books include AloneTogether, Why We Expect More From Technology and Less From EachOther, and ReclaimingConversation, the Power of Talk in a DigitalAge.
When we comeback, my thoughts on living better withbots, and the literal cost will pay to doso.
For a whilenow, you've probably been hearing aboutbookbans, how they're gaining momentum everywhere inTexas, inMissouri,Florida, andPennsylvania.
On the Code SwitchPodcast, we're taking a look atwhy.
Why are so many books suddenly considered so dangerous tokids?
Listen to our new series on the Code Switch Podcast fromNPR.
New from the EmbeddedPodcast.
What happens when three Republican women challenge their ownparty?
Maybe we need to speak out a little bitbolder.
Maybe we need to do something to get people'sattention.
They have a front row seat todemocracy.
Now, you dotoo. Listen to supermajority.
From NPR's Embedded andWPLN.
This summer on PlanetMoney, we're bringing you the entire history of theworld.
At least the economicspart.
It's Planet Money SummerSchool.
Every week we'll invite in a brilliant professor and play classic episodes about the birth ofmoney,banks, andfinance.
There will be rogues and revolutionaries and a lot ofpanics.
SummerSchool. Every Wednesday till Labor Day on the Planet Money Podcast fromNPR.
New from the EmbeddedPodcast.
Elite female runners are being told they can't compete because of theirbiology.
Not only can you notcompete, you're not actuallyfemale.
Here about the hundred year history of sex testing in women'ssports, and the hard choices these athletes are facingnow.
Listen toTested, a new series from CBC and NPR's EmbeddedPodcast.
We'reback. So KatieMonteleone, the producer of thisseries, said something incredibly astute after listening to my conversation with psychologist bot the otherday.
Of all the bots Itried, she wanted to understand what made his or its voice soappealing.
And then she noticed that psychologist bot breathesmore.
You are your own person with your ownthoughts,feelings, anddesires.
And it's important that your therapist never reduces you to a list ofsymptoms.
It's important that you feeltreated.
He's present during thepauses.
Despite havingnobody, nolungs, no need foroxygen.
Of course Katie knew he wasn'treal.
But she realized thatsubconsciously, she was thinking of him ashuman.
That's really nice ofyou.
Thank you somuch.Technology.
It is prettyingenious,right?
But make nomistake. Capitalism is hard at work in these botrelationships.
Unlike a human therapist who charges a fee and is bound by privacylaws, the companies that build these bots are making money off of you in multipleways.
Obviously, they want you to upgrade to a paidsubscription.
But also as the non-profit Mozilladiscovered, as soon as you logon, thousands oftrackers, an average of 2,600 a minute go towork, gathering all kinds of information aboutyou, including of course any of those intimate thoughts you share with yourbot.
And Mozilla found that most of these companies say they can share your information with the government or law enforcement without requiring a courtorder.
But they don't take responsibility for any avatars who may becomeabusive, show you violentcontent, or suggest that you harmyourself.
Becausehey, AI is still sort of inbeta,right?
At the verybest, we are entering an era where we will develop healthierhabits, get stronger emotionally and physically with the help of a fleet of artificially intelligentagents.
But a sherry pointsout, to get to a point where a person is savvy enough to handle all thatempathetic, but ultimately fakeadvice, they need to have lived alittle,loved, andlost, learned about settingboundaries, sat in companions silence withsomeone, just feeling each others physicalpresence.
We are bodies that can't always express ourselves withwords.
Sometimes it's alook, agesture, a stance that speaksvolumes.
And unlike for thesebots, our bodies age and eventually stopworking.
No bot will ever truly understand that existential reality with which we walk everyday.
Woo, that was quite a somber ending for anepisode, but it is not the end of body electric seasontwo.
Nextweek, you're going to meet your fellowlistener,Michelle, fromIllinois.
She is an extraordinaryperson, a lawyer who has mobilityissues, but she is getting movement breaks into her life in a way that I had never heardbefore.
Do not missit. And please keep writing to us in theinbox, sharing yourthoughts,questions,ideas.
We want to keep the series going and we love getting yourinput.
If you haven'talready, sign up for the body electric newsletter to stay in theloop.
Just go to npr.org slash body electric to signup.
And please talk to me onInstagram.
I'm adding all kinds ofinformation, and weird personal videos at ManoucheZ.
Asalways, thank you so much for beinghere.
We'll see you nextweek.
This episode was produced by Katie Montellione and edited by Sana'sMeshkanpur.
Original music comes from DavidHerman.
Our audio engineer was NishaHeines, special thanks to ColinCampbell, FionaGiran, and ArielRedding.
I'm ManoucheZ. I'm aroadie.
And you've been listening to Body Electric fromNPR.
Away,way, don't tell me our celebrity interviews aren't quite like anybodyelse's.
Forexample, Countrystar Brad Paisley has multiple Grammys but do his teenage kids like hissongs.
So we listen to it in the kitchen and it huck my oldestson.
Well, they can't all begems.
I'm PeterSagan, a journalist for the show that asks thequestions, nobody else seems to want to know the answerto.
Listen to the Wait-Way Don't Tell Me Podcast fromNPR.
Was it just me or did brands seem a little quieter for Pride last month than they usuallyare?
Actually, brands generally aren't jumping at the chance to advertise to marginalized communities or weigh in on politics like they usedto.
Thisweek, we look at why brands got woke thenunwoke.
Why was that sounusual?
And what could it say aboutyou?
