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This is Round Table.
Getting into graduate school, the dreams, the drama and the black list, we discuss why it's not always black and white in postgraduate admissions these days.
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It's always a win. Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Round Table.
I'm He Young. For today's program, I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Lai Meng.
Hello. Hey, pal. It's been a while since both of us are on the show together and I really appreciate it when you and Yohilin step up when I'm not around.
And it's great to have you back on the show.
The spring's back and such memories.
Good and bad and the ugly.
But you're the bad.
It's always fantastic to have you on the show.
And I'm curious to hear the chemistry we have today.
We've got some good topics to discuss for sure.
I believe so. And also just a little heads up, it seems like the flu germ has kind of decided to take a tour in the office and I'm on the mend myself and I believe you two might be as well.
And so if you hear a cough or two, don't worry.
We're still alive. And we're still at it.
And we're happy to deliver a fantastic show to all of our listeners.
First on today's show, picture this.
You've earned a place in one of the most prestigious graduate schools in China, a spot many dream of.
Then you decide to back out last minute, leaving the school scrambling to fill your seat and dashing someone else's chance.
This is exactly what happened at Fudan University's School of Management, where 10 students declined their early admission offers at the last moment.
In response, the school has blacklisted these students and publicly named them, sparking quite a debate.
Is it fair for the school to take such drastic measures?
Could there be a better way to ensure these coveted seats are not wasted?
Well, we'll unpack this issue and explore the deeper implications.
So Lai Ming, let's start with by exploring how undergraduate students in this country gain admission to graduate schools in China.
And there are usually two routes, right?
Right. The most common way is to sit the national postgraduate entrance examination.
And that's the majority of the people, last year in the year 2023, all together, 1 .14 million people were recruited as postgraduates in this country.
And about 12 % to 14 % of them went through, they bypassed the postgraduate entrance examination.
In another way, they took the second channel.
And that is, they did so well in undergraduate studies, they won the opportunity to be recommended as the star student.
So in option number two, that's for a smaller, much smaller group of people.
Right. And they don't have to take the postgraduate entrance exam.
I'm assuming this is because their test scores were exemplary, perhaps, you know, I don't know, other reasons that are considered.
But anyway, this is a smaller group of people, they don't have to take the entrance exam, they're, they're selected by universities and say, their own universities, okay, to be recommended to institutions of even higher learning.
Okay. And so then do they need to apply to their schools that they want to go to?
Or what's the process after that?
Well, for the postgraduate entrance examination, there usually isn't, like I said, there is a national level test, and you there are several subjects where you are tested, including your own discipline that you plan to study in postgraduate studies, and English politics and stuff.
But if you were lucky, if you've been a straight a student in throughout the four or five years of your undergraduate studies, your school would recommend you as a star student to try your luck at the school that you would like to go to and you apply, and you probably get a chance to face to face interviews
at the well in coming or the school that you would like to go.
Okay. And this is done without the, without the entrance exam.
Okay, got it. Yes. And each individual graduate school have their own sort of deadlines and interview times, etc.
So if you're a super, you're a well done student, straight eight students, like you guys mentioned, then let's say you have multiple choices, then you're kind of waiting for each school to give you a final say.
And well, I don't really want a second guess, but there's probably a lot going through the students mind as well, because you want the best choice for yourself, but you're kind of also subject to the system to wait and see, because nothing's guaranteed.
But if you're that good, you're guaranteed one seat from your alma mater to go to the graduate school.
And just to give you a little bit more further context in terms of numbers, Lymane did mention that, you know, it's like 10 % or sometimes they say could be up to 30 % of those who apply for the postgraduate well, this program who've already set the test, can get this early admissions, and we're talking
about maybe five, sorry, 400 ,000 people max.
And there are 4 .5 million people taking that postgraduate examination in a year last year.
So you can see this is very competitive.
This is a precious chance for anybody to not be to need to set the test and get this spot and then they just blow it.
So from the graduate school's side, they have a set group of positions that are available for students that have taken the postgraduate examination.
Let's say that there's 10, okay, so there's 10 available for that group, but then there's a special group and a few seats are available for that group.
Let's say five. These are just examples.
We're talking today in this particular story and we're about to get to the details about the smaller group of five who have not taken the exam, the STAR students who have applied to different universities, perhaps, to the postgraduate programs there.
And then I guess this is where we get into the story for today.
Right. And a little more side note to what we already touched upon, that is, these are straight A students we've been talking about and they're not only facing options of going to this or that institution of higher learning because they've been so good at what they do for the four years or five years
in school. They also have options, for instance, of going into and surviving the civil servant recruitment examination.
So they get a very attractive offers also outside of the schools as well.
So that affects their decision -making as well.
Understood. So what drives some of these students to behave in, as food and universities say, a dishonestly way in this high -stakes selection process?
We don't know exactly what went through, what triggered the school to make that decision because I think on the individual level there's got to be some very, very terrible behaviors on the part of the students being listed, but we don't know exactly the details.
And we also don't know the level of anger that they have triggered at the food and universities.
So we're not here to stand by anybody in this particular case.
But what we know is that the school of management of food and university released a list of 10 students for what they being dishonest.
And in other words, they turned on the offers that they received from the school.
That term dishonest, that's a direct translation from Chinese?
That's the word that was used in the media?
In Chinese, shi -sing, meaning losing one's credibility.
Okay. So this was the accusation that was made towards these students publicly.
Yeah. And shi -sing, right?
In other words, they received an offer to get admitted to the school, but they eventually said no.
So this is the issue then, right?
The fact that the students applied, the school accepted them, however that process went, there was an agreement between the students and the school that the student would take one of those seats, one of those limited seats and be attending their graduate school program.
Right. Then the student changed their mind, something happened.
Maybe they got an offer from a fortune 500 company, or the government post.
Yeah, exactly. Something happened and they changed their mind and they said, actually, I'm not going to do that.
That school of management at Fudan University, they published those students names, making their name public, saying they were dishonest because they told us they were going to come and take the seat and then they changed their mind and they're not going to do it.
And to be more specific, the school and the individual student signed something similar to a contract or a letter of agreement that this student promised on paper with a signature that yes, I'm coming to this school this coming fall, I'm going to continue my studies in my alma mater.
So it's not always the alma mater, is it?
Not necessarily. Not necessarily, sorry.
So the star student has agreed on paper that I would think then you kind of need to honor the contract if you signed that.
And also, apparently, there are multiple opportunities for you to say no before you actually sign the document, right?
I found something similar from Western universities where I think it's something to do with early application and early acceptance.
And if you pass and you get accepted, then you sign something as well.
And that's considered a binding agreement, but it's not a legally binding agreement from what I was able to read online, meaning there have been plenty of cases where students have done that and then changed their mind, perhaps even at the very last minute, to pursue a different goal.
Things like this happen in the scenario where people are looking for jobs.
We're not talking about enrollment into postgraduate studies, but in the scenario of students looking for jobs, when they graduate and when they've secured a job, then the school and the individual students and the upcoming company or the employer, the three parties will come and sign an agreement.
There have been cases where students or in most cases, the students, they decide not to go to the company at the end of the day.
And there have been cases of students trying and cancel the agreement.
I mean, that is the case.
So I don't see anything different from, in this case, with postgraduate studies, I mean, people have been known to change their ideas, to change their opinions.
As situations arises, maybe it's something that they can't do anything about, students falling sick, some family issues, anything could happen to cause somebody to make a decision.
Back to your point, Hyung, about the students were given multiple opportunities to change their mind or say no, they made a commitment.
And this is from an article from the LA times, like times, I'm guessing, the 2024 and 2025 related regulations of Fudan University clearly required that quote, candidates should be cautious, honest and trustworthy in filling in their preferences and accepting the notice to be admitted and shall not give
up once they have independently chosen and are determined to be admitted and quote.
So judging from that, it is made very, very clear to the students that if you accept this opportunity, then you are really accepting this opportunity.
Right. Well, there are a couple of things I like to sort of address here.
One thing, Lyman, you mentioned, you know, just comparing with getting a dream job in some big company and maybe this person decided not to go for some reason at the end of the day.
And well, I think that is kind of different from maybe this coveted post grad program study opportunity, because OK, with that company, it can just find anybody it wants.
It's not like once you pass this particular date, then you can't do so.
Then why do you think the company can find somebody else?
Well, just because there are mechanisms in place that allows them to quickly find a substitute.
Well, why can't enrollment to postgraduate students provide the same?
That's a very good question.
Why is it not in place?
Because at the moment, it seems like with the university, also one might argue about fairness, you know, and this is also taxpayers money, not always, but, you know, that goes into funding the university.
And then this is a really coveted space.
And if it just goes to waste, then hello, that's no good for public good.
There's sort of that argument there, too.
Yeah. I mean, you would think that there'd be some backup plan.
Yeah. Right. OK. Let's use me as an example.
So I've been working here for a good few months now.
But during the selection process, pardon me, I'm sure there must have been a backup plan for if I at the last minute said, oh, actually, I can't come from Korea.
Something happened in Canada.
I have to go back home to see my family.
I'm sure that the station wouldn't have said, oh, what are we going to do now?
I'm sure there was another person in place in case that happened.
The argument is against the universities.
Why can't that be the case as well?
Why isn't why isn't that the case?
If they have five seats available and they've selected five students, are you telling me there's not a sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth or 10th student that is on the waiting list should something go wrong?
I'm not a school admin.
But from my amateur standpoint, I think it's totally natural for them to, let's say, forgo this part of the quota.
Let's say they're recruiting five people through the recommendation channel.
How about when I have only four people coming in, I allocate the extra one slot to the part where I recruit people through examination?
I can totally select more from the competitive approach, essentially.
Yeah. There's a lot to look at here.
We're looking at it from the student's point of view, saying, okay, maybe they have the right to change their mind at the last second if they want to.
Things happen. But from the university's point of view, these are prestigious universities with limited spots available.
And they've offered these positions to the students, and they've said during the whole process, they've given them the opportunity.
You're doing this, right?
You're coming here, right?
You're going to be a student here, right?
Yup, yup. I'm coming.
Yup, yup. Okay. Well then it's done.
It's agreed. And then at the last second, isn't it a bit of a slap in the face to the university?
Oh, definitely. That's why the dishonesty, something so drastic, just for us outsiders to hear, whoa, this is really cranking it up a notch.
If you didn't turn up for your grad school post, your grad school program, and now your name is out there for anybody on the internet to check you out, and basically your name, your undergraduate school information is there, and for apparently the quote, unquote, real baddies, there's another line of information out
there as well made public by this university.
So one might argue, I mean, is this going a little bit too far?
Well, I think this is, well, again, I have to stress that we don't know exactly what went through, what exactly got the school so angry about these 10 students.
So we're not here to stand by any individual students here.
But I think in the school's perspective, I think they lost scores, in fact, in here, they've lost credibility.
On the one hand, they looked petty, just because a few students chose not to come, and you decide to disclose their personal information over the internet.
And I don't know, because we know that the internet stores everything and the internet always remembers, but the individuals who use the internet have very short term memory.
So this year, I've seen a few students, they seems to have acted dishonestly in their postgraduate entrance examination or enrollment.
But then in perhaps next year, or even next month, I forget all about it.
The effect is not that serious.
I was going to ask, what potential damage could this do to the students, you know, making their name public?
Could this have an adverse impact on their ability to apply for another school?
Could this potentially have an adverse impact on the school that they had selected to go to?
They turned down Fudan, but the other school might there be some sort of repercussions there?
Could this potentially follow them for two or three or four years?
You say the internet has a short term memory, but is this something that potential employers might see in the future?
And could this have a negative impact on them in any way because their name has been made public?
That is a very legitimate question.
I think it really depends on where they're going instead.
If they are going to a government organization that really stresses on credibility, then I think their reputation will take a dent.
And perhaps their future might take a dent.
They at least might have to answer a few questions about it.
Oh, definitely. And I could see potentially it becoming a bigger issue for them.
Right. But then in the student's defense, I mean, in the power dynamics between the students and the schools, it's the schools that are more powerful.
It's the schools that makes the decision as to whether they would like to recruit the student or not.
Whereas the students oftentimes they feel insecure.
They're not sure where they're going.
Even the straight A students in their early twenties, their entire future is yet to unfold in front of them.
They don't know what they want.
So the sense of insecurity is stronger and they're not in the advantaged position with regard to the power dynamics with the school.
So we tend to sympathize more with the students rather than with the school.
So I think that's going to be fine unless that, like I said earlier, they're into a trade where credibility is highly valued.
And well, these days and also in the future, most possibly an employer will go onto the internet and maybe even look up your social media existence.
You know, doing a background check is pretty common these days before hiring someone.
And just to speak a little bit further about the impact this has on all parties involved.
Well, for the student to do this, and especially if you end up on this list, some worry that maybe you're going to ruin your reputation for your undergraduate school, because now some universities might think, oh, that backlisted student came from that school.
So maybe not a good thing.
Also might ruin the chances of this grad school who is now left, you know, sort of hanging high and dry of getting quotas next year, getting sort of investment funding, et cetera, from the national level or whatever level might affect their funding next year.
I don't know if it'll go that far or not, but you know, this decision potentially affects different parties.
I would think it might negatively affect the school's reputation from the student's point of view.
If a student is thinking, oh, I might apply to this postgraduate program, but then they see that, oh my gosh, these 10 people, their names got published, they're being publicly shamed.
I don't even want to go try to apply because I might change my mind in the last minute.
Do you see what I mean?
I see what you mean, but also this is a super prestigious university.
It's like, does Harvard worry not getting enough students?
But what about in the West, if we may just quickly talk about this, because you mentioned, Steve, that this is not a new happening under the sun.
So how do the Western universities punish their students when they don't show up?
They don't. They don't, as far as I could find.
Here's the process.
First, you withdraw, then you contact admissions.
Do that as soon as possible, they say.
Speak with someone in admissions directly.
Let them know what's going on.
Let them know that you will not be attending and perhaps why you changed your mind as well.
Be prepared to forfeit your deposit if you put one down.
And if you want to defer rather than just withdraw altogether, which is essentially saying that you'll come back just not at this time, then go through that process as well.
That's what I was able to find.
Right. And how can this selection process we're talking about here in China be improved to avoid wasted spots while possibly ensuring fairness to both schools and students?
Perhaps better communication system in place.
I mean, for the college entrance examination, which is earning everybody's attention, I mean, entry to undergraduate studies.
I mean, there's a very complete system, mature system, allowing students to change their major or their application in the last minute.
Whereas I think for the recommendation channel for postgraduate studies, it simply is a very small part of the recruitment process.
As such, people haven't afforded it enough attention that such we are seeing such inconveniences.
Yeah. Certainly the setup of the system seems to need some improving.
But with the competitive examination, you know, which does select a lot of students, then, you know, I'd imagine, I think, that it wouldn't be that hard to fill the seats.
We'll see what happens next.
Ultimately, this is about creating a system that balances fairness and opportunity.
