For many of us, our success is blocked, blocked by our beliefs and approaches.
If we remove these barriers, we can have more impact and add lasting value.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I'm really excited to have another conversation with Muriel Wilkins.
Muriel is an executive coach, author, and podcast host.
She hosts the HVR podcast Coaching Real Leaders and she has a new book out Leadership Unblocked Breakthrough the Beliefs that Limit Your Potential.
Well, welcome back, Muriel.
I really enjoyed our previous conversation in episode 102 and I look forward to learning from you again.
Likewise, Matt.
Thank you for having me back.
Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Absolutely.
Let's do it.
A lot of your work focuses on helping leaders be more effective.
In your experience, what are the most common beliefs that hold leaders back?
There are quite a few.
And I've spent some time looking at them.
But let me caveat that by saying, I think beliefs are very unique to the individual.
So while I have identified some common ones, the work is to identify which ones might be getting in your own way.
But to get us started and that might be a little bit of an appetizer to tease out some of the ones that might exist for any leader.
There are seven that I identified that are most common amongst the leaders that I've coached.
And so the first is I need to be involved.
The second is I need it done now.
The third is I know I'm right.
The fourth is I can't make a mistake.
The fifth is if I can do it, so can you.
The sixth is I can't say no.
And the last one is I don't belong here.
And what I have found is that, nine times out of 10, if there is frustration that you're feeling or something is getting in the way of you being able to lead effectively, many times they might end up being one of these beliefs that are completely in your subconscious, or another that has helped you in some form at some point in your life, but may not be helping you in the situation that you're in.
I always think it's useful to think through some of these barriers in beliefs and identify them, so that we can then become focused on trying to fix them.
In looking at your list, I'm like, oh boy, I've got a few of these going on.
Yeah Matt, I'll tell you, as I wrote this book and I worked through each of the beliefs, I was pretty sure I only had like maybe two of them.
And every time I would finish a chapter, I'd be like, oh my God, damn it, I have this one too.
Yeah.
You know, the one that rings really true for me is the can't say no.
And in fact, when you were last on the show, we talked about that and you gave me some good advice.
I've dialed that one down a bit, but it's still there.
And I do have a lot of being afraid of making mistakes.
And there's a lot of pressure, given what I do, to feel like I have to have a good, right answer for things.
Yeah, I mean, it can be because we associate, we identify with them so much, right?
Maybe it's been what's been the key to your success, right?
And so I think a part of it is.
You know, to what extent have you taken some time to potentially redefine what success might look like for you now?
And does that belief, that driving principle, still serve you in terms of the new definition of success?
Wow.
Already providing really useful information for me personally.
And I think everybody listening in that a lot of these beliefs are tied to how we envision success.
And if you change that vision of what success looks like, that can make a big difference.
I appreciate that.
Which leads me naturally to the next question.
You talked through three stages on how to get unblocked from your hidden beliefs.
Can you walk us through these?
We live in a very action-biased culture.
I myself is somebody who, for most of my life, have been very prone to take action as quickly as I can.
And what I found is that, while we can move to action to sort of change our approach, if we don't also take some time to think through what might be leading to that action, we'll come back right to where we started to begin with.
So The three-step process is to try to mitigate us having to return to that starting point over and over again.
The first step is to uncover.
The second step is to unpack.
And the third step is to unblock.
Let me take a little bit of a deep dive on each one of those.
So with uncover it's number one, understanding that there might be dissonance between the way that what you want to achieve and what you're actually achieving right.
So In your case, maybe when the I can't say no belief was driving you, maybe you were finding that hey, I'd really only like to have five things on my to-do list, but here I have 50 instead.
Right?
So there's something that's queuing you up that something is off, something doesn't feel right.
And you can then ask yourself well, what is the belief that is driving this potential situation that I'm in, or the behavior that I'm having, or whatever?
What I'm seeing manifests itself in front of me.
So you uncover the belief.
And what is a belief?
A belief is a story that you tell yourself.
It's not a bad or good.
It's not a wrong or right.
It just is.
It is the operating principle that is driving your behavior or the decisions that you make.
Once you can uncover that, then you can go to unpack.
And the unpack is to familiarize yourself with why you have that mindset to begin with.
In what way has it served you up until now?
As we just talked about, in what ways has it made you successful?
And then is it making you successful now?
Is it driving to the outcomes that you want to drive to?
And if it's not, then you can allow yourself to move into the third stage, which is unblock, which is what most people want to run to right away.
And in unblock, you reframe the belief, right?
So you reframe in your language, the communication that you're having with yourself, right?
And you reframe it to a message, to a mantra, to a narrative that actually is going to serve you in this moment.
And how do you know it's serving you?
It's more aligned with the outcomes that you want to achieve and increases the probability that you will get to those outcomes.
Once you've done that, you can then ask yourself okay, so if that is what I believe now, what actions can I take?
What actions does it open up for me?
What can I do that not only helps me get to those outcomes that I desire, but also reinforces that belief?
And then you have set the path to actually leading or behaving or communicating in a way that's more sustainable than if you just move to action right away.
The tendency I have and many people I work with is, hey, let's get to that unblock stage.
I really appreciate, though, you breaking down the uncover, the unpack and the unblock.
And it's really.
It boils down to the stories we tell ourselves, those beliefs, and then questioning that.
And then changing that narrative and that leads us to the new action that can help us mitigate change evolve, grow from those problems.
And I really appreciate that.
I just recently spent some time thinking through.
I did a values exercise to try to help me really understand what success looks like for me.
And from that, that led me to, I think, be better at unblocking.
And I'm putting this process I put myself through into your steps and I can see the values.
Even with values, we sometimes have to kick the can on them, right?
Where did those values come from?
Are they truly your values or are they the learned values that you adopted as a way of making you feel worthy, accepted and safe in your original tribe or the original community that you're a part of or early on in your career?
That may not be necessarily the values that you need.
Now you know, in the position that you're in or in the type of leadership role that you're in, that are going to help you get to again the success that you want.
It's a little spooky mural because what you just said is exactly of the process I went through.
It was where are the values coming from?
And a lot of it for me was my early career journey.
I had some mentors and some people I really admired and they inculcated in me some of these values.
And yet now being in a very different stage in my career, those values are different and needed to evolve and they hadn't.
You distinguish between both healthy and toxic productivity.
What is the difference and how can we focus on the healthy stuff?
Because I had never thought of toxic productivity, but I think I might be waiting in that.
You know, it's so interesting because sometimes we just talk about productivity, which is about getting things done.
And there is healthy productivity and toxic productivity.
Toxic productivity is getting things done at any cost, right?
And it is universally applied across anything that has the notion of needing to be completed.
The toxic productivity is really driven by a mindset of I need it done now.
There's a sense of urgency in everything and everything needs to be done.
While healthy productivity is more about doing things and focusing on things that matter.
So beyond that, you have to understand then what is it that matters, right?
There's a certain level of prioritization that needs to happen.
And the belief that will drive the healthy productivity is more around something like I'll do the best that I can with the time that I have.
So what I love about that is that it takes into account that we have constraints, whether we like it or not.
We have guardrails, and the guardrails are what is the best that I can do, meaning what is within my capabilities, or my team's capabilities or the organization's capabilities.
And what is the time limit that I have?
And then what's doable within that timeframe.
And there is a cost to both toxic and an opportunity with healthy.
That we can see happen within organizations but also on ourselves.
So most people don't really discern between the two.
They just think about being productive, rather than shifting their mindset so that they can have one type of productivity versus the other.
I really do need to distinguish that because I have that mentality of just get it done.
And the biggest thing that suffers is my sleep.
And I know I'm not at my best when I'm tired.
I have a new mantra.
I'm going to do the best that I can with the time that I have.
And it is the distinction that you make really reminds me of that distinction between urgency and what's urgent and what's important.
And and if you live in that world of urgency, that's that toxicity you're talking about where, while you might get things checked off your checklist, you put yourself at a disadvantage.
And I do, you know, I do appreciate you giving me that new mantra.
You know, there's also the other side of that formula, which is, if you regard everything as important, not everything is important.
You know, whether it had to do with prioritization.
Right.
And again, comes back to your values and your beliefs, which really are important.
Last time we talked, we discussed the importance of mindset.
I know you've spent even more time since we last talked thinking about and studying the impact of mindset on well-being and success.
Can you share the new thoughts that you have about mindset?
Absolutely.
And these thoughts aren't mine.
I just became more curious about mindset because I found that not only with myself and my own life experience and leadership experience, but also with my clients, that they were moving to action, but the actions weren't sustainable.
And so it got me curious around, well, why is that?
I'm a big fan of reverse engineering.
And when I reverse engineered, I'm like, well, let's start at the beginning.
And the story in the beginning is the story we tell ourselves about what we do.
One of the studies that really fascinated me was a study by believe.
Her first name is Aaliyah, last name Crum, and she's a social scientist.
So she did that study with the hotel attendants where they asked those hotel attendants.
Do you think that the work that you do is exercise?
And they were like, no.
And so they said well, what if you did your work and all you had to do was change the way you think about your work?
You think about it as exercise.
Four weeks later, with that small shift, they saw significant enough that improvement in the health and fitness of these individuals, just by the mindset change.
And that fascinated me in her conclusion, which is that it's not just about what we do, but it's about what we think about what we do.
That makes all the difference.
Literally was a game changer for me.
And I started taking that approach with my coaching clients in terms of really exploring the.
Well, how are you thinking, or what is it that you're thinking about the conversation you're having with your colleague?
What is it that you're thinking about that presentation that you're about to go make?
What is it that you're thinking about that report or that deck that you have to put together?
By shifting the way that you think about the thing not only may have a direct outcome on the thing itself, but even more importantly Matt, it changes your experience of doing the thing right.
And so in my world, I really just want leaders to be able to lead with a little more ease, right?
It doesn't have to be as difficult as we make it.
The challenges are challenging enough, but if we can approach them and respond to them with a little more ease boy, would that open up opportunities.
And I think the mindset, The way that you do the work or what you think about the work, is what can open up that possibility of leading with more ease.
I love Aaliyah's work.
And like you, I see a tremendous amount of power in it.
It's how we frame and reframe it.
I'll give an example from my life.
One of the things that has always been, or had been, difficult for me was the grading part of the job I do.
As a teacher, I have to give grades.
It was not something that I would get up in the morning excited to do.
But when I reframed grading as actually another form of teaching which I am very passionate about, it was like a game changer.
So reframing can really change the way in which you interact.
And I want to highlight something else for everybody.
The way you got to where you did on your perspective on on mindset and reframing, is by reverse engineering.
And I think that is such a powerful tool.
And I know you use it a lot to understand things in your own life and the lives of those that you coach.
Can you walk us through sort of how you think about reverse engineering?
Because for many people, that's not an intuitive thing to do.
My tendency is to be very results oriented, right?
Very outcomes driven.
A lot of the work on myself is to not be so attached to the outcome.
But when I look at the outcome either the outcome that has occurred or the outcome that I want or that I desire I can then look and say okay, this is what I desire.
This is what I want to achieve.
Let me work backwards, right?
What would I need to do to be able, so that's the action.
What would I need to do to be able to achieve that outcome?
All right.
If that's the action, how would I need to feel about that action right in order for it to increase the probability that I would actually do it or that we could make it happen?
And then from the feeling, I can work backwards and say, what would I need to think?
What would I need to believe in order to increase the probability that I could feel and also fulfill those actions?
And that's where the reverse engineering is.
Are those thoughts or what I need to believe?
Are they aligned with the way that I believe right now?
If it's yes, great.
If it's not, then here's an opportunity to reframe the belief, not lose the one that I've had.
Just put it to the side momentarily until it's useful again.
Right.
But there needs to be alignment between how I think, how I feel and how I act in order to achieve a particular outcome.
Start with the outcome and then work it backwards again to say okay, what would that alignment look for me?
When we feel frustration or we feel dissonance or we feel stuck, it's often because there's somewhere along the line there's some misalignment.
Thank you for walking us through that backward mapping.
You know I spend a lot of my time talking about how people should have a clear goal in their communication.
And I use this structure of no feel due.
And you've just applied no feel due in a very different way to help us with our internal communication to align ourselves to the beliefs we have and the beliefs we should have to achieve our goals.
I really appreciate that backward mapping process.
You are an expert coach.
I certainly have benefited in this conversation, but last time you were kind enough to coach me through a challenge i was having around setting boundaries.
Your advice was incredibly helpful and foundationally changed how i do some things and anybody wanting to hear that advice can go back to episode 102 to hear.
Would you be willing to coach me on another issue I'm having?
Of course.
Of course.
If you're willing, I'm down.
So one of the things that I struggle with is I get very emotionally invested in my work.
And as a result, often find myself exhausted and run down.
Any advice?
I don't want to lose my passion.
I think that's one of the strengths I bring to the things I do, but I also don't want to lose more sleep and energy.
So let me just ask you, when you say emotionally invested, what's the emotion and what's the investment?
I have a lot of curiosity and passion to help.
So in many of these situations, I see opportunities to learn, to help others learn, and to help.
The biggest emotions that drive me are those, curiosity and the desire to help.
And the investment is often time, not just time in conversation and work to accomplish that, but it's just mental time.
I am somebody who ruminates, who reflects.
And so even when I'm not doing the work, when I'm trying to vegetate sitting in front of the TV or I'm going for a walk, it occupies my time in my head.
So the investment is a lot and constant.
Yeah.
And so what would it look like for you to still be able to exercise that passion you have and the desire you have to help others, and not let it consume you as much as you feel it does or you've stated it does?
I actually don't know the answer to that question.
I do have some role models, some people that I really admire who seem to be able to do it.
So what I've noticed that they can do is they're able to compartmentalize.
They're able to say, okay, Just spent time doing that.
Going to put a bow on it.
Might come back to it later and I'm going to move on to something else.
The other thing I've noticed that people do is they have some kind of transitioning ritual.
It could be taking a walk.
It could be calling a friend.
It could be checking email.
I've noticed that I haven't been able to find a good transitioning ritual to get myself out of whatever I'm focused on.
What do you believe that gets in the way of you being able to compartmentalize?
When I reflect on what we've talked about just previously, I think there is an underlying belief that commitment to something I'm passionate about is full-on commitment.
And in some way I'm failing either myself or the other people involved if I'm not constantly working on it.
And that was an unlock for me from our earlier part of this conversation.
And perhaps I need to revisit that belief that failure is nothing less than 110% investment.
Yeah.
I mean, well, let's try it, right?
How would you redefine that belief now in a way that would allow you to both drive to your passion and get more sleep?
I think the first thing I have to do is ask other people.
I'm realizing I make the assumption of what success looks like for me, and perhaps those that I'm trying to serve in that moment, or with that project or whatever it is, might have a different version of success that is not as amped up and intense as the one that I have.
And so I think getting external for myself might be helpful.
And then perhaps setting some boundaries around investment like, while this is important, prioritize it relative to the other things that are important.
Yeah, yeah.
And so my advice to you would be to go back and redefine.
As we said earlier in the conversation, redefine success.
Because if success means I can do all the things and I need to do all the things in order for other people to be helped right, because it's grounded in helping redefining, that would be helpful to you.
And, as you said, maybe getting some outside measure of what that looks like, because what might be good enough for others might not be the way that you're defining good enough for you.
And so getting that outside metric to really help reformulate your definition of success, which is a belief in and of itself, and then let that drive how you're prioritizing, how you're creating boundaries and all of the other things that you just said.
You are so good at what you do.
I think an internal recalibration and an internal recalibration of what success is for me will really help in this circumstance.
You know that before we end, I always like to ask three questions.
One I create for you and the other two I've been asking people forever.
Are you up for that?
Absolutely.
So you had mentioned that when you were writing about the barriers that get in the way for some leaders, that you actually recognize some in yourself.
So I'm curious if you're willing to disclose what's one of the challenges that you have and how are you working on that.
Yeah.
I mean, to be honest, I ended up recognizing myself in all of them, which was kind of hard.
The longest standing one and that I have learned to befriend because it's not going away, nor do I need it to go away.
Is that I need to be involved?
And underlying that is this false belief that if I'm not involved, everything's going to fall apart.
And I understand where it comes from.
And by understanding where it comes from, I give myself a lot more grace, because I also recognize that where that belief was cultivated and formed is not the place that I'm in right now.
And so the work for me is constantly reminding myself that I am in the here and now and I'm not in the place where that belief was actually quite critical before to my success, and therefore I can let it go for a little bit or put it to the side and use a different one to help me get my work done and be more effective in the here and now.
I really appreciate you sharing that with us.
Thank you.
So you had an opportunity to give an answer to this question before.
I'm wondering if it has changed at all, but who is a communicator that you admire and why?
The one that's coming to mind for me today is Dr Gabor Mate, who does a lot of work around mental health and mindset.
And what I really appreciate about the way that he communicates is number one.
He's able to take what feels like complex ideas and break them down in very simple terms for anyone to really understand.
Number two, he is an amazing storyteller.
And by telling the story associated with the concepts, it allows it to be relatable and also memorable.
And number three, he just exudes authenticity, right?
Like he.
I don't know if you've ever heard him speak, but you literally feel like he's sitting right in front of you just having a conversation with you.
It's not him trying to be anyone else or it doesn't feel like that.
It doesn't feel performative.
It just feels like him, like that's who he would be, whether he is having a coffee chat with you or whether he's on, you know, on stage in front of thousands of people.
So he's someone I hugely admire, not just in terms of the work that he does, but also his communication approach.
The ability to make things accessible, but also be very authentic, very powerful skills.
So since you were last here, I'm wondering if your answer to our final question has changed as well.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
I think you have to start with the why.
So why are you communicating what you're communicating?
What's the purpose behind it?
Okay.
Because if there's not a purpose, you should be asking yourself whether you should be communicating it at all.
I think the second is the how.
What is the best way for me to communicate this?
And that is grounded again in this question of how do I want to experience myself as I communicate it.
How do I want others to experience me?
How do I want them to feel when they leave that communication?
And then the third is in what way do I need to reframe what I believe about what I'm communicating in order for me to be able to communicate it effectively?
So it still goes back to mindset, going back to what we talked about before.
It's not just about what you do, but what you think about what you do.
So what would you need to think about what you're communicating, why you're communicating and how to communicate it for it to optimize the communication that you're about to make?
Very clear.
Why, how and then how do I reframe it to make sense to not only to me, but to those I communicate with?
That's right.
Mural, this was a fantastic conversation as I knew it would be.
You opened up my mind and hopefully everybody's listening to how we can be more effective in our own lives and how leaders can lead better, how we can unblock ourselves from the things that get in the way.
Thank you for your time and best of luck with your new book, Leadership Unblocked.
Thank you so much, Matt.
Always a pleasure to talk to you.
Thank you.
