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What's up, fam?
It's sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl Sam Jay.
And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together.
We're breaking down the biggest headlines, the viral moments and the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports.
From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates and a few laughs along the way, because everyone watches women's sports.
Listen to.
Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Good morning.
This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a slightly longer one part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.
So today I am delighted to welcome Nicholas Epley to Before Breakfast.
Nick is a professor at the University of Chicago.
He is the author of the brand new book, A Little More Social.
So Nick, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me, Laura.
Yeah, excited to have you on.
Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
So I'm a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.
And I study mind reading for a living.
Mind reading.
I study how we make inferences about each other's thoughts and beliefs and attitudes.
And mostly I'm interested in how we screw that up and misunderstand each other in all kinds of ways.
That compromises our social relationships and our happiness.
All right.
Well, that leads directly into your new book, which is all about a misperception that people have about others.
Your new book is a little more social.
What are you trying to convince people to do with this book? to test their beliefs a little bit.
That is to recognize that social connection is a choice we make, but whether we reach out and engage with other people or hold back and avoid them, and before we make that choice to reach out or to hold back
We play out thoughts in our heads about how this interaction might go, whether this stranger really wants to talk to me or is scary.
Whether you want to go deeper in this conversation or not.
Whether you'll respond favorably if I reach out and express gratitude to you or pass along a compliment or or ask for help.
Social connection is just choice.
And what we find in our work is that often people's beliefs or their expectations about social interaction are overly pessimistic.
And I would like readers to test some of those beliefs, to see if, in fact, they might be overly pessimistic in their own lives, in ways that are choosing them to be less, making them less social than they might otherwise be.
So it's interesting, Nick.
When I heard about your book and when I came to it first, I thought it was going to be that you were going to convince me that I needed to make plans more often with my existing friends.
Like that I needed to get out of the house and go see them, like have the lunch date or whatever.
And we'll get to that in a minute.
I'm making time for that.
But your book is largely about talking to strangers.
There's a big chunk about it.
That's certainly the part that I think hits people the most, because that's where people are often the most pessimistic and anxious and nervous, or they think it's not going to be very meaningful or valuable.
And it's also the place where we're most consistently wrong.
I think about how well these interactions turn out.
Yeah, well, what do we get out of talking to strangers?
Like, I mean, I've been told as a child not to talk to strangers.
So why should I talk to strangers?
Yeah, well, you get two things.
One is you learn stuff.
So you sometimes be amazed by what you learn from other people.
I've been on a plane with one of only a handful of people who's been inside the North Korean nuclear arsenal, for instance.
I've been in a cab with a guy who grew up a few miles from where my two kids, who we adopted from Ethiopia, grew up.
You learn things when you have conversations with other people, so that's one.
But the other thing is that you create connections that just feel good in that moment, develop a brighter sense of what other people are like.
You learn that other people are mostly kind and decent and interesting.
And you make those moments.
You can make those moments that are otherwise dull and kind of boring better.
And it turns out your happiness is really a function of how you're spending your moments.
Are those moments relatively good or bad?
And so you get better days, better weeks, better months, better years when you choose to reach out and connect a little more often, even with strangers.
Even with strangers.
So that's true even if I don't see these people again.
Like, even if I have a conversation on the plane with this gentleman, never see him again, I'm still going to be happier.
You're happier in that moment and that matters right.
That's what happiness is, is to keep doing that kind of thing.
If you think about, psychologists have learned that happiness is really a function of the frequency of positive experiences.
You have, not the intensity of them.
And it's a little like exercise, right?
You kind of got to go every day, right?
Going one day isn't going to be enough to keep you fit for a long time.
Having a nice meal with a friend isn't going to keep you happy for a whole week or two.
You need to pay attention to those moments.
And when you do, it makes your days better than they'd otherwise be.
So what are the biases that keep us from talking to strangers?
You go into this sort of systematically in your book.
Yeah, so one is that we tend to think about ourselves in terms of our competency where other people care about our warmth.
That means that we underestimate how positively things will turn out when we just reach out to other people in warm friendly, kind ways.
That stranger you turn to with a smile and a hello and tell me a little bit about yourself.
They tend to react to that warmth and that makes that conversation go well.
But if we're focused on our competency, we'll underestimate how well this is going to go.
So that's one bias.
Another one is that we have a hard time imagining, um how social interactions will actually play out.
We're too focused, like on the, on the initial part, so we focus a lot on who are we talking to.
What are we talking about?
We're focused on kind of the core aspect of the action itself, Not so much on the reciprocal back and forth that happens in social interaction.
The reason why conversations, for instance, tend to be pleasant is because we go back and forth in conversation, and that's what creates connection.
But our expectations miss that, right?
The other bias that we have is that we don't learn from choices we avoid.
We don't learn when we avoid interactions.
And that means that if you're pessimistic up front, that belief can be self-fulfilling.
Because if I think talking to you is going to be unpleasant, I won't try it.
And I'll never find out I might be wrong.
Optimism gets calibrated because I try.
Pessimism doesn't.
It stays and is kind of pernicious that way.
So those are three biases that keep us, I think, overly pessimistic about how reaching out will go.
I wonder if there's any sort of way that, like public spaces, could be structured to encourage more sort of random conversations.
I know you mentioned in the, I mean, obviously I love my quiet cars, by the way.
I just don't want to hear people's cell phone conversations.
Yeah.
Nobody knows the half a log.
Yeah, the half a log.
I will talk to a stranger.
I don't want to hear half of their conversation.
But like having a bar car or something that's a chatty car like people sit in, that they want to talk to people.
I mean, what can you envision in public spaces?
The key for these public spaces that we find, at least and this is something that I've talked to architects about, that's easy to overlook is, When we think about public spaces, we often think about creating spaces where people can come together, right.
As if if you just create those spaces, it will happen.
What we find is that your willingness to reach out and engage with other people is really a function of your beliefs and your expectations about how interested other people are in engaging with you.
And if you don't overcome that part, that sense that other people are willing to engage with you, it's not going to be enough to make people connect.
So I mean, how many times have you been at a sporting event and you've never said anything to the people sitting around you?
You talk to the person you're with, but you don't talk to the people in front of you or behind you.
Imagine that a public service announcer asks you during the first halftime break or something, or during a timeout, asks you to stand up and greet your neighbor a little bit.
Right.
Or like you created a bar car where you go, where you understand that the norm is that we're going to engage with each other a little bit.
I was having dinner in Kansas City last night.
I was by myself.
I sat at the bar and there, you know, people who come up and sit next to you are kind of open to conversation because we're all kind of alone.
Right.
So it's overcoming those norms, believing that other people don't want to talk to you or engage with you.
That's also critical in these public spaces.
So having things that signal that is going to be important.
So you'll be happy to learn my church just reinstated the passing of the peace.
That is beautiful.
Yes, I grew up in a Lutheran church that did that as well.
It was my favorite moment of the whole service, right?
Yeah, we have some strong feelings about it.
We're Presbyterians, so, you know.
I see.
People aren't wild about it?
Maybe not, maybe not.
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Nick Epley.
If your service lights on, trust the techs with the training.
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What's up, fam?
I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl, Sam J, And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together, and I Heart Women's Sports.
Because let's be real.
Women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days.
The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline.
And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.
Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports.
We'll give you our takes, our debates, and probably a few disagreements.
We'll talk to athletes, celebrate big moments and get into what's happening on and off the field, court track and beyond.
Because we're not just interested in what happened.
We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
So if you're already a fan or you're just getting into the game, there's a seat for you right here.
Listen to.
Everyone watches women's sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Well, I am back talking with Nick Epley.
So we've been talking about talking with strangers in random places.
And I wonder some bit about the safety aspect of it.
You know, I certainly, like you said, as a child, don't talk to strangers.
Many years ago, when I was young and cute, I did not like sitting in bars randomly because of what would happen.
So I wonder if you could address that part of it.
Yeah.
So so our data suggests that, not not that reaching out to engage with other people always turns out well, or that it turns out the same way for everybody.
I'm a man.
You're a woman.
The ecologies that we live in are a little bit different.
Right.
Right.
And then our data also don't suggest that you should be reaching out all the time to engage with other people, right?
What our data suggests is that when you're in situations where you'd like to reach out and engage, But you're a little worried about whether the other person is interested in engaging with you,
Those are the cases where we're misplaced.
So we're not telling you to go out and talk to people in back alleyways or things where you feel somehow unsafe.
Although our data also suggests that, just like we have a lot of fears, like fears of sharks in the ocean and things like that, that are exaggerated,
I think a lot of these fears stranger danger was a wildly miscalibrated fear about what other people are like.
But our data suggests that you should reach out in places where you feel comfortable.
But you're just a little unsure whether somebody would like to talk to you.
So I talked when I was writing this book to people who talk to people a lot.
A lot of the women that I talked to said that they try to talk to other women mostly, and that's great.
So if you just do that right, just engage with other women more often where you feel a little more comfortable, that would improve the quality of your life.
That's.
I think what we're suggesting is to just test in the context where you do feel safe and comfortable, but you just think maybe now the time isn't right or that person doesn't seem interested.
Check it.
Check those beliefs in those contexts.
Gotcha.
So let's talk a little bit about in-person conversations versus the electronic communication that a lot of us rely on these days.
What is it about... conversation itself that is so inherently pleasant.
So this is one of the things that our expectations miss.
When we're interacting with people live, that tends to pull us together, in part because it essentially synchronizes our thinking and our behavior with one another.
So we often think of conversation, and linguists did too for a long time think of conversation as a back and forth, like a One person is speaking, then the other person responds, and it goes on that way.
When you actually look at what social interaction is like.
It's not that one person is engaging while the other person is sitting there totally dead.
The other person is also very actively engaged.
It's more like a band playing together right, one person's taking the lead, the other person's playing the background rhythm, and that background rhythm are things like um, back channeling, right.
So when i'm talking, somebody will be saying yeah uh-huh, right.
That's signaling to us that they are interested in us, that they are with us, that they are thinking of with us together right, and that synchrony is what pulls us together.
They're also giving us constant feedback when we're talking to them.
Sometimes we can see it, right?
Like you're nodding at me when I'm talking with you or you're smiling, right?
And it's that stuff that pulls us together.
Also in conversation, we go back and forth.
We're like cooperating with each other.
And we get connected to people when we're cooperating with them.
Social interaction has this reciprocal back and forth component to it, where not only is the way you reach back to me determined by how I reach out to you.
I reach out to you in a positive way.
You tend to reach back to me in a positive way.
But the fact that you are reaching back and we're going back and forth like that.
That's what pulls us together when we're connecting.
Typing to each other is dead almost in that particular way.
There are words there that we're communicating to each other and that matters, but it lacks the rhythm and therefore the synchrony that you get in live conversation and therefore doesn't connect us nearly the same way that connecting live with each other does.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
When I learned to interview people for podcasts, I had to learn to stop back channeling in an audio fashion.
Because if you have a ton of like me going, uh-huh, uh-huh, that's great, Nick.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
It's horrible to listen to.
But we can see each other.
Our audience is just listening to us, but we can see each other.
And so I am nodding my head to my guests all the time to encourage them in a sort of visual back channeling.
So podcasting has made you a worse conversationalist.
You have to turn that off when you're out in the real world.
You don't have to shut up anymore, Laura.
You can let them talk and you can go back and forth.
Although, you know, you mentioned, so when we reciprocate.
Going back and forth, I mean, joke about it.
This is sort of like the, oh, you've been in Cleveland.
I was once in Cleveland.
I mean, there's certainly an element.
You're trying to find common ground, but many of us are not that great at finding common ground.
You've developed a couple of questions that you found get people very engaged with their conversation partner.
I wonder if you can talk a few about those and how you came up with them.
So let me just say first about these questions.
Essentially, what we're doing is we're testing what happens when we have the kinds of conversations we'd actually like to be having.
When you ask people, how deep are the conversations you're typically having?
They say, not that deep.
How deep are the conversations you'd like to be having?
They typically say, notably deeper.
And the question is, why aren't you having those conversations, right?
I don't think it's actually because we don't know how to have them.
When we ask people to generate deeper questions, they can do it.
And when they then have a conversation about those deeper questions that they can generate, they have better conversations.
They enjoy them more than when they ask a typical one.
So I think much of it is we're not asking the questions we could be asking.
But in our experiments what we do is we pair people up randomly and tell them you're going to have a conversation with somebody in just a minute.
And we give them questions that are notably deeper and more meaningful than they would typically talk about, and these come from an experimental procedure developed by Art and Elaine Aron, known as the Fast Friends procedure, that psychologists use to pull people together.
They thought it took 36 questions, a ton of questions.
It doesn't.
You can get deep really, really quickly.
The questions we have people discuss are things like, what are you most grateful for in your life?
Please tell me about it.
If I was going to become a good friend of yours, what would be most important for me to know about you?
Can you tell me about one of the last times you cried in front of another person?
Going into these conversations, people are pretty nervous.
They're pretty anxious about how they're going to go.
They think it's going to be pretty awkward, right?
Jumping right into the deep end of the pool.
They think it's going to be kind of mediocre.
They're not going to have a whole lot in common with the person.
When they come out of these conversations they go way better than they Not nearly as awkward as they imagine.
And they feel much more connected.
They enjoy the other person a lot more than they expect and have more in common than they imagine, because we tend to talk about things that we have in common.
That's the way conversation works.
But I don't think the magic is in the questions.
My advice to folks to have the kinds of conversation you'd like to be having is to change your mindset a little bit when you're going into these conversations to actually allow yourself to think about and then ask these kinds of meaningful questions that you'd actually like to be discussing.
So the way to do that is to actually take an interest in getting to know other people a little bit.
Even if it's only for a moment, even if it's just a single serving friendship, right?
You're just on a plane, like I was this morning coming in from Kansas City, or I'm on a train ride home.
I can find out, you know, I can get deep pretty quickly.
I can ask people, you know, what is it you do for a living?
And then I can ask, do you love your job?
And right there on the second question, I've gotten to love, right?
If you can work love into your second question, you're on the right track, right?
Or one thing that I like to do when I'm taking interest in really getting to know somebody is I'll often just start.
You don't even need a second question.
You're just doing your first.
What's your story?
Lauren, tell me, what's your story?
How did you get here today?
And typically when you ask that question, people recognize that they're not talking about your commute into work or whatever.
You're talking about kind of just tell me about your life and how you got to where you are today, right?
And when you take an interest in other people, then meaningful questions about who they are, what they care about, what they hope for in their future that stuff, I think, often comes spontaneously to mind and more willing to ask for it when you've thought about these questions.
So what is an illuminator?
Because I imagine that people who are illuminators have good entries into conversation.
Yeah, so this is David Brooks's term, which I rather like.
He wrote a book called How to Know a Person.
That was based to some extent on a lot of research that I talked about in my first book, Mindwise.
And David talks about – I don't think you want to think about this as a personality trait.
This is something that we can all do in any given conversation, which is to –
Engage with people in ways that kind of light them up that allow you to see another person for who they are, ask meaningful questions that they care about.
That kind of shine a light on who they are, rather than just talking about superficial things that actually don't allow you to know or understand somebody.
That's an illuminator.
And you can adopt that approach, that illuminating approach in conversation.
When you ask people about you know What do you love to do.
What are your hopes for your future?
Tell me about one of the most interesting things you've done in your life.
I'd love to hear about it.
I know you've got a story to tell me.
That's what being an illuminator looks like.
Excellent.
All right, well, we're going to take a quick ad break and we'll be back with more from Nick Epley.
If your service lights on, trust the techs with the training 270 hours with zero complaining.
They train under the hood, they train down in the pit.
270 hours means their training's legit.
It's the smart choice for smart folk who care for their steed.
So trust the instant oil change that starts with valvoline.
Valvoline, instant oil change change.
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What's up, fam?
I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl, Sam J, And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together and iHeart Women's Sports.
Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days.
The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline.
And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.
Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports.
We'll give you our takes, our debates, and probably a few disagreements.
We'll talk to athletes, celebrate big moments and get into what's happening on and off the field, court track and beyond.
Because we're not just interested in what happened.
We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
So if you're already a fan or you're just getting into the game, there's a seat for you right here.
Listen to.
Everyone watches women's sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Well, I'm back talking with Nick Epley, who is a professor at the University of Chicago, the author of the brand new book A Little More Social.
So I want to get to the topic of spending more time with friends which, of course, is where I initially thought that the book called A Little More Social was going to tell me I should go, rather than talking with random people on the A train.
So.
Do you have any thoughts on spending more time with your actual friends?
And I know that you are also a busy dad.
You have five kids.
I also have five kids.
That's something we have in common.
So what do you think about finding time for that?
So...
Often we think too narrowly about what our situations involve, like what we're doing in any given moment.
Like I'm going down to get my coffee down in the faculty lounge here in my office today.
I think about that as going down to get my coffee, or I'm driving home at the end of the day and that's driving home at the end of the day.
There are often opportunities in our lives where we can add other people to it, right?
So I've now taken most times when I'm in the car, I'll call up one of the kids, right?
Who's not home.
Some of our kids are a little older.
I'll call them up.
I'll add a FaceTime moment, like when I'm traveling.
I'm getting ready in the morning to do something.
I'll FaceTime my daughter Lindsay and just keep her there on the nightstand while we're talking with each other a little bit, when it works out for her schedule.
If you're watching a game, so the World Cup is going on as we're talking right now.
If you're watching a sporting event, lots of people will sit in their homes and watch it alone.
You can invite a friend over to watch it with you, right?
So I think that's the way to think about how to add a little bit of what psychologists sometimes refer to as vitamin S.
This is social connection.
Two moments you're already having.
You're going to walk the dog.
See if a neighbor can join you.
You're sitting alone at a bar.
See if you can bring other people in and have a conversation with them.
You can often add a little social element to things you're already doing in ways that don't change it.
Sometimes these can be little things.
Like I've developed a habit of practicing the 10-5 rule, particularly when I'm in the office.
The 10-5 rule comes from the world of hospitality.
When you're 10 feet away from somebody, you smile at them.
When you're five feet away, you say hello to them, right?
I'm walking around anyway.
I might as well light people up, be an illuminator, right?
You'll get a lot more hellos back and smiles back in your life.
If you do this, you get to know people a little bit better without adding any extra time to what you're doing.
So I think those are the opportunities to look for.
When can I take something that I'm currently doing that's not social and without any additional effort to speak of make it a little more social than it would be otherwise?
We are big fans of efficiency around here.
So we'll note that tip for sure.
We're also big fans of morning routines around here, obviously with a show called Before Breakfast.
So what does your morning routine look like these days?
We have a 10-year-old Lindsay who, if you read the book, you'll learn about Lindsay in the opening preface.
Lindsay likes to get up early in the morning.
She likes to get up around 5.30, but she's not actually supposed to get up until 6 or so.
So I have a baby monitor next to the bed.
I'll usually hear her talking a little bit earlier.
Lindsay has Down syndrome.
She's a adoptive daughter from China.
And so I hear her getting up in the morning.
She's often singing the Wicked soundtrack, which is pretty darn awesome.
Oh, I love that.
Defying gravity at 530.
That's a great way to wake up.
It turns out to be okay, right?
But usually I'm talking to her a little bit, asking her to wait until the green light comes on.
Then we can come.
Six o'clock, though, is when I get up with her usually.
Bring her downstairs.
She'll help me make coffee.
She loves two eggs, so I'll make four eggs.
I get two.
She gets two.
And then I'll eat breakfast with my daughter while my wife – gets a little bit of extra sleep in the morning and actually gets to get herself ready without being encumbered by the kids.
So that's my morning routine, spending it with Lindsay, with my daughter.
I love it.
That is a great way to spend your morning.
One question I ask all my guests and we've been talking a little bit about this but what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
So I've been traveling a lot.
I'll just tell you what I did yesterday.
Yesterday, I was in Kansas City speaking at a bookstore.
And that day, I would say, was going to be kind of mediocre.
When you're traveling...
It's not always so great.
So I was driving over from St.
Louis.
And what I did was I reached out to an old friend of mine.
Todd Jones is his name.
He lives just north of Kansas City a little bit.
I've known him since I was in kindergarten.
But we haven't spent a lot of time together in recent years.
But I reached out to him as an old friend.
And it turns out he's a few miles away from another longtime friend of ours that we've known since kindergarten.
I spent the afternoon having lunch with Todd and Marcy at Todd's house.
And that made that day awesome.
That is wonderful.
Anytime you can connect with people that you have a long history with.
I find you still have a lot to talk about.
I mean, even if it's been a while.
Yeah, you can.
I mean, you almost those old friends.
What's interesting in research is that people anticipate that reaching out and connecting to an old friend will go about as well, on average, as talking with a stranger.
But I think we're wildly wrong about that, too.
We haven't done research on this ourselves, but it is something we are starting to work on.
You instantly can get back to things that you have in common, even if it's not about old times, but even about current times.
There's a Ben Rector song that I love, called Old Friends, which I recommend some of your listeners can listen to before breakfast.
One of his lyrics is, you can't make old friends.
He's absolutely right about that.
That's true.
Only time can make old friends.
Only time can make old friends.
Well, I think it's good to put yourself in other people's shoes.
I mean, to have your own theory of mind here, obviously.
Would you be upset, annoyed, et cetera, if an old friend reached out to you?
Would you be like, what on earth were they thinking?
Like, what loser would do that?
Exactly.
Right.
Of course not.
No.
Never would you think that.
Right.
Absolutely.
But people, when we find in our work that when they think about what's on the mind of another person, they're often not doing that.
They're just imagining another person's mind without imagining how they would feel if they were in the person's shoes.
And in this case, yes, just flip it around.
Would you mind if a friend who you knew since kindergarten reached out to you, said they were going to be in town and would love to come by and say hi.
You'd be delighted.
We had a wonderful day yesterday because of that.
It was awesome.
Yeah, you took a day from great to awesome.
Well, Nick, where can people find you?
So my website is NicholasEppley.com.
You can find a little more social anywhere you buy books, including the audio book.
I did the narration.
If you like the sound of my voice, you can get eight hours of it.
And then I have a TED Talk.
You can look for that.
It's 14 minutes.
And I'm also on LinkedIn as well.
Awesome.
Well, Nick, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening.
If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura, at lauravandercamcom.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeart Media.
For more podcasts from iHeart Media, please visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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It's sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl Sam Jay.
And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together.
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From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates and a few laughs along the way.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
Listen to.
Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Joy is essential and it's also elusive.
But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence.
Joy 101.
It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotb.
If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on-air chats.
Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS.
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Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Guaranteed human.
