This is the Business English Podcast, Episode 6, Business, Body Language, and Trust with communication expert, Mark Bowden.
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Hey, Marg, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on today.
How are you? Oh, I'm good. Thanks, Lindsay.
Listen, thanks for having me. It's a great pleasure and privilege to be able to speak with you and all your listeners out there.
Hi there. No, we are thrilled to have you here because body language is something that we don't talk about enough on this show.
We talk a lot about learning English and learning languages, but a big part of communication is the way we move our bodies and the way we hold ourselves.
So Mark, could you start by telling us about your kind of core philosophy, this idea of the primitive brain and how it ties in with body language?
Yeah, perfect. My core ideas and philosophy come from evolutionary behavioral psychology which means that there's this premise that there's a part of our brain which in evolutionary terms is about 500 million years old and it goes right right back to reptiles and before that fish and we've inherited that small tiny but incredibly powerful part of the brain in that it runs our whole behavioral system.
That part of the brain makes judgments about our environment and decides whether we should move into it because there's a benefit or away from it because there's a risk.
And of course, human beings are part of our environment.
So every time we communicate, and every time we're being communicated to, our primitive brain, it isn't listening to the language because it just doesn't do language.
Part of the brain called the Broccoceria does that, which is pretty new.
It's about 200,000 years old. Okay. They're pretty new.
But this part of the brain called the brain stem or the primitive brain, it's judging others' behavior.
And that means it's judging their body language.
And based on their body language, it's deciding, is this a good person for me or a bad person for me?
Is this person a benefit or a risk? And then based on this snap judgment, this really quick assessment, It then decides the kind of thing you might be saying or what you might be meaning.
So it's really interesting in terms of language because no matter what you say, we'll have already made a judgment about what you mean.
By what you say. Does that make sense? Oh, that is huge.
I mean, this tells us that body language in many ways is more important.
The way we move, the way we move our bodies, our gestures are truly more important than what we say because that person, as you've just told us, has already made a decision as to what kind of person we are and whether or not they're going to trust us.
Well, this is exactly it. Trust is the key.
And I don't want to downplay language, as I'm sure you don't either, because language is important.
Without language, here's the key to language.
Without language, we're not able to communicate about the past, and we're not able to communicate about the future.
And we're not able to communicate about groups anymore.
But body language communicates our feeling and intention now.
So if you start talking to me about the future, if you've got body language that makes me feel like you're, I don't know, angry with me, which could be true or not.
I might just have mistaken the body language.
But if your body language makes me feel that you're angry with me, I get a sense that the future with you will be a negative one or I'll be at risk.
So regardless of the words that you say that you're happy to be with me and you're looking forward to us working together, I don't feel that.
And therefore, I start to what we call distort and delete what you've said.
Does that make sense? Interesting. Right.
So our minds are selective, right? Based on what we've already decided this person is, we then select based on what they say.
That's exactly it. Oh, interesting. So what does this mean for our listeners?
Because our listeners are all over the world.
They're from China, Japan, Latin America, and they are trying to learn English to be able to do business in the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, different English-speaking countries.
But they come from different cultures, and we know that to some extent body language does vary across cultures.
So what does this mean for our listeners when they're trying to learn English and communicate in the Western world?
Well, I'm happy they're trying to learn English because as you can probably hear from my accent, I actually come from England originally.
It's a beautiful, beautiful language and a great, great language.
Of course, often seen as that international language of business.
Now, there are cultural differences in body language.
The thumbs up signal doesn't mean the same all over the world.
In some parts of the world, it means that's good, that's great, go ahead.
And in some parts of the world, it's very, very rude and offensive.
Right. We have to be careful there. But here's what I want to tell you. is that in terms of the emotions that people want to portray and in terms of trust body language is the same across the world look you know lindsay i'm hearing from your accent that you maybe come from originally come from a different part of the world but that i come from okay right but the interesting thing is is our genetic makeup is more similar than it'll ever be any different And our bodies are more similar than they'll ever be any different.
And that means in certain circumstances we'll behave very similarly and our body language is very, very similar.
So here's the great thing I think for anybody out there learning English is you don't need to learn a new body language.
To go with it, okay. What you need to understand, and we can talk about this, what you need to understand is what's our primal body language?
What is the body language that is the same for every human being on the planet?
What is it that you would do and I would do that would mean somebody in China or somebody in India or somebody in Japan or somebody in France would know exactly what we mean when we do that gesture?
Does that make sense? I think so. See, absolutely.
So there's an underlying layer there that is really the same across cultures because we all have, as you've said, that primitive brain, or I've heard it being called the lizard brain as well, right?
I think Seth Godin called it the lizard brain.
And you must work with executives really around the world, and you're teaching the same core concepts, right?
So this really is a universal issue here.
Oh, yeah. Look, I work with executives across the planet, and I work with them at all kinds of levels. and everybody's learning the same content, okay?
There isn't anything that's advanced, and there isn't anything that is basic around this.
It's all fundamental. Fundamental to human beings.
And super important to know. And then on that note, let's jump into maybe you might have, I thought you might have three core tips that our listeners could actually start to use today to kind of build more trust in the next business situation that they're in when they're speaking English or really any other language, but essentially we're learning English here.
So what could they do as some simple, easy things to build that trust?
In terms of body language. Let me just give you the first one here for you.
And it's really simple, but so many people don't do it.
And that's smile. Okay. Interesting enough, the smile is the same across the planet.
It doesn't matter where you've come from.
It doesn't matter where your parents came from.
It doesn't matter whether you were born at the top of a mountain or down by a lake.
Everybody on the planet smiles the same.
Here's what happens is the cheek muscles bunch up to pull the sides of the mouth up slightly okay and not necessarily showing the teeth at all okay it's just that slight rise of the sides of the mouth and the eyes narrow and this is really important that sparkliness in the eyes that people perceive it's actually the combination of the eyes narrowing and the cheeks bunching up and that's all and it's the same signal across the planet okay and this signal means it's good now Oh, it's good now.
So a sense of peace, essentially, that someone is peaceful, they're not going to harm us, or what do you mean by it's good now?
Well, we don't know what the smile will reference, okay?
Because often eye contact would show us the reference.
So if I look at you and I smile, the indication is it's good between you and me now.
Our relationship is a good one. And you might perceive from that it will continue to be a good one or it has been a good one.
But actually, body language doesn't talk about past and future.
It only talks about now. And then we generate an idea about past and future from our body language.
So there's there's the smile. OK, that's what I'd like people to do is as much as they practice their English, I'd like them to practice their smile.
Excellent. I love that. No, I love that, Mark.
Thank you for that because, you know, a lot of times our listeners, you know, it's easy to get stressed out when we're speaking another language, but not only does that smile really build that trust, but it also helps your own body and mind to relax, right?
We know that we probably release certain chemicals and we're able to relax the mind.
So having that smile as the go-to option really is such an important thing to remember.
Oh, I love that. And I wonder whether when people are practicing their English skills, Can they practice their smile at the same time?
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Exclusions apply. See details online. I love that.
I love that. So let me give you another idea around body language.
Yeah, please do. Thank you. That will engender trust is doing open body language.
Okay, what does that mean? Well, let me give you a simple open gesture.
It's to gesture with open palms, not closed hands, but open hands.
This is a universal signal that says I don't have any tools or weapons.
I've got nothing in my hands. And it engenders trust.
And it especially engenders trust if you're open with your hands at exactly navel height, exactly belly button height, stomach height.
Oh, wow. Interesting. This is one I hadn't heard before.
That's really interesting. So it reminds me of the handshake a little bit, but you're talking about something a little bit different, like opening your hands, showing that there's nothing in there, having them up and towards the person.
Right, exactly. So it's almost a gesture of your – imagine you're holding a tray.
And it's at exactly belly height. Now take the tray away.
And now you've got an open hand gesture at exactly kind of the plane of navel height.
And this across the planet is the most simple way and clearest way that somebody else will recognize that you can be trusted. interesting I love it and this is one I wouldn't have thought of that's fantastic so until I started publishing in this area and working in this area this gesture was a little bit of a secret I mean everybody does it at some point but very few people knew that they did it and very few people knew that you could do it on purpose yeah in order to produce the body of somebody who will be trusted instantly because it stimulates the primitive brain and into seeing that you are not a predator.
You're a friend. You're a benefit. Because predators, they'll protect that stomach area and they won't show you that there's nothing in their hands.
They won't display their vulnerability. Right, right, because they're likely to attack.
Okay, interesting. And at that point, when we have our hands out and we've established that level of trust, then the person is going to actually listen to what we're going to say.
Yeah, not only are they going to listen to what we're going to say, but also they're going to be primed to skew what we're saying towards a very positive judgment of it.
Yeah, this really is an interesting way to kind of hack an interaction here.
I love it. I love it. Do you have one more thing that our listeners could do in terms of gestures?
Yeah, I do. And again, it's really simple.
It's you keep your body language consistent.
You don't keep changing. So if I decide to smile, I need to smile for quite a long time and decide, okay, for the 20 minutes I might be talking to you, I'm going to smile as much as possible.
I'm going to be a smiling person. I'm going to keep my hands at belly height, navel height when I talk.
Because the more you change your body language, the more difficult it is for the brain to decode and the more it jumps to a negative. because it's confusing.
The brain hates confusion and therefore it dislikes anybody who creates a confusing environment.
So it automatically puts you in that negative category and will start to skew your words in the negative direction.
Exactly. So regardless of what you're saying, regardless of your command of the English language and how you might have worked out what you're going to say in this business interaction, if your body language is inconsistent and confusing, I think you and your project or idea or what you might be able to be selling me or what you might be proposing to me I find it confusing.
Yet your English was fantastic. I come away going, I can't understand what they're saying.
Oh, fantastic. No, this is so important, Mark, because a lot of this I think is so unconscious, right?
It's below the surface. We do it or we don't do it and we don't realize it.
But if our listeners can just add these little tips to their repertoires, in addition to their growing language skills, right?
More nuanced language skills, they will have kind of the full package to really get that trust going in their business situations or in their life, right?
In those everyday situations. For Sure, it works for business.
It works for life. It works in all kinds of situations.
And just as you say, you can do it or not do it.
There's no practice required for this. There's smile or don't smile.
There's be open or don't be open. There's be consistent or don't be consistent.
You can choose. You have command of it. It's your choice.
Yeah, we have more control than we realize, right?
Absolutely. Let me just sum up what you've told us.
So the three things that we can do as our go-to nonverbal kind of moves is we can smile, right?
The one that we forget often when we get nervous when we're learning a new language.
We can use open body language by holding our hands out, as you said, at navel level to show that we don't have essentially any weapons as the primitive brain would interpret it, right?
And then we can stay consistent. If we're going to smile in an interaction, we should continue smiling as much as we can throughout that whole interaction to not confuse people.
Okay. Very cool, Mark. Thank you for letting us know these tips.
This is really interesting and it's really important for our listeners.
Could you tell us where to find you online and what you're doing if our listeners want to know a little bit more about how to maybe work with you or check out your courses?
Where can we find you? Yes, I'd love people to go to truthplane.com.
So that's T-R-U-T-H-P-L-A-N-E, truthplane.com.
Yeah, head there. And you'll find books that I've written, videos that I've made.
There's a training course called Presentation Genius.
And in fact, you can go to presentationgenius.com as well.
And you can watch some videos there for free as well.
There's lots of free video content around body language and presenting and speaking on my website.
Go and take advantage of that. Buy some books if you like.
Do whatever you like. But take advantage of all that free video content, please.
Oh, interesting. I saw one video that you had where you talked about why you might not want to use a lectern, right, a podium.
And so we want to encourage our listeners to go on over there and find out why it might not be a good idea to use a lectern.
Awesome, awesome. So guys, go on over to Mark's website and check out what he's got going there to really build your communication skills.
It's not just about the vocabulary and the grammar.
It's really about this body language as well.
Well, Mark, I want to say thank you so much for your time, for coming on today.
You know, you've added a lot to our show and we really appreciate it.
Oh, it's been great. It's been great speaking to you guys and great being able to have the opportunity to get my message across to everybody out there in the world.
Thanks very much, everybody, for listening.
Yeah, thank you. Keep doing great work out there.
Thanks a lot, Mark. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening to Business English, a podcast just for you, the high achieving global professional.
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