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Hello and welcome back to the show. I am Patrick.
I am here as always with Ben. We are joined by our friend, EC Sienkowski.
Hello, EC. Hello, Ben. How are you guys doing?
Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful. I will tell everybody because they weren't here because I didn't press record.
We just spent at least 15 minutes talking about pickleball.
So if you ever corner EC and or Ben at a party, I don't know that either of them go to parties anymore, but ask them about pickleball.
Their eyes light up, let me tell you. We've got some stories.
EC is a pickleball champion. Just throwing that out there.
I mean, I don't want to brag, but I have a medal.
There we go. I have a blue ribbon. I do.
All right. By the way, she is oddly proud of this.
Yes. It is appropriate for the person who created the 800 gram challenge that pickles have something to do with it.
Oh, look at that. Patrick, look at you making connections.
Vegetable related. Dot, dot. Connection.
I'm doing my best. All right, Izzy. You've been on the show a bunch.
You are the founder of Optimize Me Nutrition, created this thing called the 800 Gram Challenge.
You did just also come out with an app called the Three Pillars. method nutrition app.
Before we get into this episode, which we're gonna talk about questions and asking better questions.
What's the best place for folks or where should we send people if they want to learn more about you and about the Three Pillars Method app and all the other things?
Let's do that real quick. OptimizeMeNutrition.com and then Optimize Me Nutrition on Facebook and Instagram.
Cool. Awesome. And you also have a wonderful podcast called The Consistency Project Podcast.
I've never listened to it, but I hear it's good.
Yeah. Thank you. All right, so we are gonna talk about questions.
We're gonna talk about how asking better questions can lead to better results across our health spans.
And this was sparked actually by EEC by you. by an article that you put in the Morning Chalk Up, which is a wonderful newsletter inside the CrossFit space.
And the article is called The Mirror Method, A Better Way to Track Progress. than body fat testing.
And here's just a little bit of that article that made me think, oh, I want to have EC on.
I want to talk to her about questions. He wrote this, here's what I've learned after years in nutrition.
Most people ask the wrong question. Instead of what's the most accurate body fat test, ask yourself, what will this number actually do for me and i think this is something that you do really well you see you you're you're very good at bringing us back bringing our attention back to the right question and maybe not the easy question.
And so What we're going to do today is we're going to break down some of those easy questions and talk about how we can maybe transform them into better questions. as we pursue health, fitness, mindset, the things that we talk about all the time.
Before we do, I was doing a little reading in prep for this conversation.
I grabbed one of the books off of my shelf. called the big or the called the book of beautiful questions by Warren Burger.
He also wrote a book called A More Beautiful Question.
So you can kind of tell by the titles what he writes about.
And in the book, in the book of beautiful questions, he listed out the five enemies of questions.
And so I just want to list those out kind of as our introductory bit here.
And then as we get into our specific questions, I thought maybe if it made sense, we could try to bring ourselves back to one of these five enemies or these five enemies in general. to maybe identify where they might be showing up inside of these questions.
And so the five enemies of questions from Warren Burger, number one, fear, fear of showing up or Fear of showing that we don't know the answer, of opening ourselves to where the questions may lead, Enemy number two, knowledge, the trap of expertise and not knowing as much as we think we do.
Enemy number three is bias, the seen and unseen ways.
We are predisposed to thinking for hubris, the belief that our biases are correct or aren't in fact biases at all.
And then five, time or the supposed lack of it.
And he writes this, as our lives move faster and have become more complicated, little time is allotted for inquiry, contemplation, or critical thinking.
So again, I just kind of like those five enemies of questions.
What was there between three and four? One was humanism. but it was kind of like, is it unawareness of our biases?
Yes, exactly. Or a belief that we don't have biases or that our biases are correct.
So they're obviously linked and related as our fear and knowledge.
So again, fear, knowledge, bias, hubris, and time.
So let's just jump into these questions we've got here.
And the first one is going to be related to that bit that I read from the morning chalk up. the question, what will this number or metric actually do for me?
So instead of asking, what's the most accurate body fat test as you see put in the article.
A better question might be, what will this number actually do for me?
Or how will knowing this number change my behavior or mindset.
EC, let's throw it to you first and unpack this a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, obviously that's a common question in nutrition.
A lot of my clients, their main goal is improving body composition And so we're into measurement, we're going to be able to track progress.
And so then the next logical question is to ask about, OK, well, what's the best way to track body composition?
But all of these different measures have inherent error in them such that you could, for example, go get your body fat tested and see a 2% change, but it might be more a reflection of your hydration status than a true muscle mass change.
And I think people are really after some sort of number they've heard that this is a certain level of leanness or this is a certain level of health or this is where you start to show your abs or whatever so they're really chasing this percent number when in reality the reason that's chasing the numbers because they want to look a certain way in the mirror or maybe they want to get more pull ups or push ups.
And so once we start getting towards this number that we're just chasing a number, it doesn't actually transfer to the outcome we want.
And instead, it's like, well, if you're really interested in you know, looking a certain way, at some point it's better to look in the mirror to assess your progress than look at what's my body fat reading.
And then same thing if you're doing it for more fitness because you want more pull-ups, that's going to be the better indicator than, you know, your 10% body fat or 12% body fat or whatever it is.
So I love, progress markers and I love being able to track progress and having data, but we just have to check in with, to make sure that that marker that we're chasing is really what we're after.
And a lot of times there's, it's correlates, like weight's a good correlate too.
Like a lot of people want to lose weight because they want to look a certain way in the mirror, maybe improve their fitness.
But at some point there's probably a better marker for the outcome that we want.
I really love that there's a lot to like in that it's And I think that we could just really quickly extend this beyond just the body fat.
And that's kind of the punchline, right?
The body fat marker is a... is an example of where this shows up so much, especially now in today's world where everything is data driven.
Right. And data don't lie and all the rest.
But I see so many people and Patrick and I have talked about this that are You said it, Patrick, help me out with these words, but they are doing fitness, right?
But they're not actually acting in a way that's going to get them fitter, right?
So they are analyzing their sleep. They are looking at all of the data.
They're checking out all of the biomarkers in their HIV and all these things. but they're not actually taking the actions that are going to actually get them where they want to be.
These are the correlative numbers associated with they have a sense of where they want to get to.
And they're saying, if I was able to But nobody really cares if their resting heart rate is 48 or 58. what they care about is what they think that those numbers represent.
And it's the same thing as you're saying about the body fat thing. which is no one really cares if their body fat is 14 or 12%.
What they care about is what they look like in the mirror and or their performance.
And I really like that Major said, as I hear this, when I talk to people about body fat, because we do measure body fat here at the gym.
It's part of our intake. But we don't do it solely.
And that's, I think, a big part of it is we want the data, we want the metrics, we want it as holistically as we possibly can.
So we're getting their body fat. But we're also getting it as a amount of lean muscle towards body weight.
How close can we get to that 50% gold standard 50%?
So it's not about just losing weight and muscle mass.
If you do that, you'll lose a faster percentage of fat than you will muscle, but we want to make sure that we're preserving muscle.
But we also do it with like, and how many pull-ups can you do?
And what's your squat? What's your how mobile are you in a couch stretch and trying to get is stretching easy.
We just talked about that. So we're trying to get all those things.
And when we take those metrics, the body fat, I love how you just kind of threw this out there, but It could swing 2% based off of hydration.
We say don't look at anything inside of 2% changes.
Because what we're really trying to look for is are you 13% or are you 23%?
And people, that's what we're looking for.
And over time, are we seeing these kind of moves of 3%. each way.
So if you come in and one day you're 15.5% as a female, and the next day you come in and you're 14.5%, we don't throw a party.
There's nothing to be said about that. But if you come in and you are now 11%, that is statistically significant enough to tell ourselves a story out of that.
I think we get all caught up in every one of these metrics that we have about You know, people really kind of geek out about sort of like the threshold numbers, like sleeping seven hours.
If people sleep 6.57, they're like, I fucking failed.
If they sleep 7.02, they're like, win! It's like those five minutes are not that crucial.
No, I hear you. I've got the whole 800 gram challenge, so people eat that baby carrot to get them over the 800 grams.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's some really great stuff, the long-term trends for sure.
You know, to get maybe a little woo, and I know you like getting woo, so we're going to go there already. think stopping to really understand what your motivation is for this and what you're going to get out of that number.
And I think I actually heard Lane Norton say this first.
But it was just something like what's going to happen at the level that you want.
Like, let's say that you want this 15% body fat as a female, like what's actually is going to change in your life.
What does that number do for you? What is it representing?
Because I think you might try to be chasing this thing and you have this validation in this number.
We could be one at the... limits of the error of the test were just in the hydration level.
But also, like, what are you really chasing?
What kind of validation are you chasing?
Are you really doing this for your health?
Are you really doing this for performance?
Are you really doing this for how you fit in your clothes or whatever?
Or is this you're looking for some external motivation?
I think also pausing yourself and like, what am I really seeking out of this number?
And am I actually getting that from this number? number is also a good question to ask besides just what's the ideal body fat percentage.
And with that question about like, OK, I'm a female.
I do want to get to 15%. It's what's going to what sort of what will happen when I get there.
It's also the same thing in terms of my career and earning potential.
And it's also what are we willing to, this is the big punchline, right?
It's like, what are we willing to give up in the pursuit of that?
And that's probably the biggest question is, okay, if you are –
26% body fat right now and you want to get to this 15% because you believe that that represents and they're fill in the blank.
And all those are like, it's not to feed your ego.
And they're real reasons, right? If I get to that number, it means that I'll have the vitality to be able to show up and play with my kids.
Like, good reason. it means that I will probably have all my other health metrics fall in line with a top level healthy individual So I will live a longer, more vivacious life and be able to give more to the people around me than take.
Cool. Good reason. Okay. So if we have validated the reasons for it, not just because I'll be turning heads on the beach and they're legit.
Okay, the next question then, questions. what changes do I need to make to get there?
And am I willing to do those? Like every decision we make has an opportunity cost somewhere else in life.
So am I willing to give up my current social life?
Am I willing to give up how much hours I'm spending at work?
Am I willing to give up my Netflix? Am I willing to give up The social drinking, am I willing to give up the extra time that I used to spend that I'm now going to spend either in the gym sleeping or food prepping? nothing comes with is the ask better questions and what we're trying to do is like raise reality like that just kind of like put it on the table and go This is what it will look like.
This is what you will get from it. And this is what it's going to cost to get there.
Hmm. Yeah, I want to circle back to one of the things you said about the long-term trends with the body fat.
I think we are, as you also mentioned, that we're in this age of big tech, lots of data.
You can get no shortage of biomarkers on anything at any single time.
And I think this is where we can start getting distracted and start being trying to track all this stuff.
When in reality, we've got to see how this plays out in the long term.
And so I just kind of wanted to really hammer that idea, too, that we want to look for long-term trends. versus let me just collect the data today and see that I'm in a good range.
Like what's actually changing in a meaningful way to a clinically significant amount And not just in a week and not just overnight.
Did my HRV improve last night? Okay. How is that paying off in my health markers that have been validated fitness and weight?
And so, yeah, I just kind of wanted to re-hammer that, that I think we're distracted by the immediacy of all the little notifications.
No shortage of biomarkers when in reality we could pick probably a few to hang our hat on and then just like hammer it out over months and years.
Yeah. It's that doing versus being, right?
We're doing health versus being healthy.
And I think there's so many people with all of this is like, I'm going to try to work to optimize my HRV when, okay, but I can't.
Are you leaner? Can you run faster? Can you squat more?
Like that's actual like let's get those things and those things It takes a healthy lifestyle, not just reading data.
Yeah, I mean, this actually reminds me something we've talked about before, Patrick.
We've talked a little about recovery scores, which, of course, HRV is part of. but there's other ways that people measure recovery.
And I think people end up getting caught in this race of they want to be like the recovery champion, you know, not the recovery champion, but they have this 15 step recovery routine.
And how is my recovery score doing? And now I'm doing this mobility thing.
Plus I'm doing the sleep thing. Plus my, all this other data.
And you have to remind yourself, why are you doing all this?
You're doing all of this, I'm assuming to improve your fitness for a lot of people in our community, right?
So we don't need to be tracking on all the recovery metrics. the outcome you want is actually, is my fitness getting better?
So you become this champion and having this list of these recovery metrics, but it's like, what was the reason for that?
It was to get better at this thing over here so we can just go back to our runtimes and pull-ups, etc., It makes me think, going back to the list of the five enemies of questions and thinking about like, OK, why do we get stuck on numbers or metrics?
When I think, again, intellectually, if you can zoom somebody out, it's like, of course, it's not so that my HRV is X and my whatever is Y.
And yet we get a little bit narrow-minded on these numbers.
And I go back to that list of the enemies of questions.
What's standing in the way? And I think it's knowledge.
It's the belief that the number is telling us something and then we can move on.
Like, oh, that gave me the answer and now...
I'm good, like the number is the point when what you guys are laying out is the number is not the point, the number is, an indicator of a trend.
And what we need to learn how to do is look at these numbers, these metrics, which again, like you guys said, We have a lot of at this point.
We need to learn how to look at the numbers not as a number but as a a data point in a long stretch of data points, and then what are those trends teaching us about what we're doing and what do we need to do to move us in the direction that we're trying to get to.
Yeah, I mean, I guess you could also argue, I think knowledge and time could be closely linked because it will take some time to develop the knowledge about like, what is HRV really measuring?
What's the weaknesses of that? Does that play out? to predicting better performance.
And you could do that with all of the markers.
So yeah, I was thinking time, but I of course see knowledge as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's jump to another better question.
So instead of asking, why is this happening to me?
Or why aren't things going my way? A better question or better questions might be, what can I control here or what's my next best action?
Isi, how does this show up in nutrition with the folks you work with? in terms of that mindset of like, why is this happening to me?
Why? I've tried this. I've tried that. I've tried this.
And I can't lose the weight. I can't improve my performance.
I can't whatever. Yeah. I mean, you kind of just hit the nail on the head.
I definitely advertise as sort of the, you know, you've done all the diets, so now come try mine because I'm going to get you out of this.
So it's definitely that. frustration, I've done thing, nothing works for me.
But I think that first reframe, I used to kind of phrase it as, somebody being able to identify as a healthy eater is kind of the first step.
And I think this is sort of what this can do.
You first have to identify with the possibility that you can do this.
And so proving yourself there is something you can do and that you're not the victim, I think is kind of the first way out.
It's way before cleaning out the cupboards and planning your next meal You know, all of this stuff that you would associate with diet and more reframing it as like, this is something that I can take control of and I can actually you know, make a change with.
And it doesn't have to be big. I mean, I think that's a topic that you wanted to get to too, but it could literally be like my breakfast is going to change from you know, just coffee or a latte to now it's going to be with a banana or something.
So just something small that's in your control that starts to associate with you with you with the behavior that you want to exhibit in the long term.
I see you speak our love language. I figure you've said that principle once or twice before.
It's of course, right. It's that, you know, this is like, I think mindset 101, right.
If you don't want to call it mindset, call it behavior change 101.
First, give me the wisdom to understand what I control and what I cannot, right?
From there, I think that it's really vital to what EC laid out is understand this And it is bidirectional, but really the way it flows, you can change the flow, but really the way it flows is Identification.
What do you believe about yourself? I am the type of person that... Who is my identity?
I'm the type of person that no diets work for.
I'm the person that doesn't have discipline.
I can't stick to this. I'm the person that's always going to give in.
I don't have willpower. I'm the versus the opposite.
When you say like, I have such strong willpower.
I'm so disciplined. I can stick to anything you give to me.
Like when you just say those words, like the next things that you tell me to do, It's a full fundamental – like it's a game change.
It's like you're playing a different sport because I – who you believe you are leads to your own virtues and belief system.
So if you believe that you are disciplined, If you identify as a disciplined person, if you identify as a person that sees things through, if you identify as someone something that health really matters to, well, then you believe that you are disciplined.
You believe that that... And then your virtues change.
If that happens, then your behaviors and your actions follow suit, at least in the 80-20 spectrum, right?
They don't always have to and they don't always will and it's not supposed to be binary or 100%.
As we know, it works the other way as well, is if you just start doing the things, even if you don't believe you are that person, you just start eating a banana every morning, you start acting... then you start to believe that.
But somewhere in the middle, you have to have this belief thing.
You have to believe that what you're doing matters.
And I think that's really important. And if you feel like you have no control, which is like this big idea, this again, feeling, If you feel like you have no control, you're going to play this victim position because you have no control.
And your agency in life diminishes to the point where you just point fingers everywhere and go, see that I told you and You go back at me and I, guys, I told you I can't do this.
And it's this perpetual cycle where now we go back to this self-reinforcing loop where you now go and you see things that you want to see to reinforce the belief system that you already have.
We're such confirmation seeking beings that whatever identity we have, we look for ways to confirm that. because it's our our our identity is the most important thing to us if you believe you are that type of person you look every single choice away to confirm that thing so If you believe you have no control, you're going to be in for a long road.
Yeah, and I don't think I really realized when I first started out with the 800 gram challenge in nutrition, as much about mindset.
I was never somebody that was really into the mindset angle of things.
I think, though, I inherently... knew nutrition was this frustrating thing for people and they would kind of felt like they were in the washing machine cycle of just round and round on all the different diets.
And it was, for me, it was so imperative for them to have something that they could do.
It was like, you know, of course not everybody likes fruits and vegetables, but once you start including potatoes and avocado and all this stuff, it's like, you just don't like strawberries. like there's nothing in this list that you like.
It was really just to give it to somebody like I can actually do something and almost make them feel... and not just hope to make them feel, but make them really believe that they could do this nutrition thing.
And it was only after years of kind of doing it that I was like, oh, this was all about like mindset.
Right. It's kind of embarrassing. It took me a little bit while, but I think I kind of inherently knew it without identifying that.
Well, I think mindset gets it's like it's mindset is this. it kind of lost its meaning at this point.
Because people have mindset and people have to roll their eyes.
But if you're like, hey, this is a human psychology problem.
This is not a physiological, this is not a nutrition problem.
This is a human psychology problem. And then people are willing to kind of like psychology is real, right?
Psychology, people are willing to... There's no major in college called mindset.
But there's plenty called psychology. So if you kind of like just kind of focus it from that perspective.
And I think it's so right. You see, like, what can we do to empower people? to feel like they can do these things.
And for people that have come to you that said, listen, I failed on these other five.
I don't know why I think this one's going to work, but here I am.
You going, well, could you eat a plate of potatoes every day?
And they're like, could I what? I get to what?
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You see, I'm really curious. And maybe it was at the same period where you started to recognize like, oh, okay, psychology is a really big part of this.
But how do you try to instill a person's belief of their own agency as it relates to nutrition, as it relates to their own health, how do you start to get them to understand that much of the progress they're looking for starts with them seeking the ways that they can assert their agency in what they're doing on a daily basis.
Yeah, I mean again, this is where you know, I don't really talk about mindset.
I try to do it by way of their actions. It's like, you know, I don't think I can eat healthy.
Okay, well, we're not worrying about that.
What fruits and vegetables do you like? Well, I only like grapes.
Great. When are you going to eat them tomorrow?
So it's really trying to get tactical about the strategies they're going to implement that they can do. again, if nobody wants to eat any plant foods, okay, we're going to have a problem with the eating room challenge, but there's such a wide range and I don't care if it's more fruits and more vegetables or more potatoes or, you you know, whatever it is, they really wanna do sauerkraut, knock yourself out.
But it's like find something and then figure out how to work that into their diet at any level.
And it's that simple following through on the action that builds, I think, that identity and agency about it.
I don't really talk about it much. In fact, I'm kind of glad you had this question because when the coaches come through, they're like, how do you do motivational interviewing and how do you do mindset?
And I don't, I think I've tried to enact it by way of the changes that they make.
Is mine the perfect system? No, but it's like, What can you do now?
It's the same sort of philosophy I think we have at CrossFitter.
When some new member comes in the door, you're not like, well, you can't do a muscle up, oh well.
It's like, well, what can you do? Can you do a row?
So let's figure that out and get them going.
And then that starts to show them, oh, I can do this, right?
I don't think I do it in any sort of formal way is the short answer.
Oh, I can do this. That, oh, I can do this might be like the most powerful thing in change.
Because then what they start to do is they start to trust themselves, which is agency.
Like I trust that I can go and make change.
That's what the ability and availability to make change.
And if you think about that, like, oh, I can do this, they start to trust themselves.
What is trust? Trust is just the... the belief that you will follow through on what you've promised.
So as you said, it's like, well, I don't like any fruits and vegetables except for grapes.
It's like, okay, grapes, great. when you can eat them tomorrow.
And if they go, Oh, I guess I'll, how much do I have to eat?
And you're like a handful, three meals a day.
You're like, Okay, so I'll do that. I'll eat a handful at breakfast.
I'll eat a handful at lunch. I'll eat a handful at dinner.
And then they do that. The next day, they have more trust in themselves.
They have more agency, like, oh, wait a minute.
I said I would do, and all that you're doing is lowering the bar.
And that sounds like that sounds negative.
That's not Patrick. I've talked with so many times. physical and psychological tolerances, right?
It's you need to work at people's threshold.
And my big take on this is you need to work below their threshold until they trust that they can even be near failure.
Because most people are so used to failure, they put them at a threshold.
Threshold means like... It's the analogy with the gun, right?
They're going to miss a target a couple times.
But if they miss a target and go, see I told you I can't do this, like I'm just a failure.
So you gotta go like way down low. And the way I've talked with Patrick is with my son when he's learned to play soccer, which he's a really good soccer player now, but we started, he was the worst kid on his team. he would go to take a shot from the penalty box and he couldn't make it to the goal line.
So I was like, let's go on the goal line.
You can't miss. If you touch the ball and it rolls an inch, you've scored.
And we literally took 100 shots from there.
It's like just kicked over and over and over again.
Then he started to believe like, oh, and he like by himself, he like moved it back five feet.
And that's like, okay. And that's what we're doing is like fistful of grapes.
You're not going to fail. And now because you're not going to fail, you're like, oh, I can do that.
I've tasted success. And now I trust that I made that little small promise to myself.
I followed through. Maybe identity starts to shift.
Maybe I am the type of person. that can do a diet.
Maybe I can stick with EC's thing. Maybe I am a healthy person.
Maybe I have this. It's that whole thing of like you're either there's no standing still.
You're either in a sewer cycle spinning down or success cycle spinning up.
You're taking one step closer or one step farther away.
The world, every atom, every cell is changing at every single constant moment.
There is no There is no standing still.
So what we want to be able to do with all of our people, our clients, our friends, our family, is get them to believe that they can start to be a part of the success cycle, that they can take the one step forward.
It reminds me a little bit of John Berardi, at least when I took precision nutrition, I know he's no longer involved, but it was sort of like the first step was I think a multivitamin every day. something along those lines.
And the next step was drink a glass of water a day.
And I struggle a little bit with some of that because I also have clients who are saying, it's gonna take how long?
You know what I mean? So I do think there is, you can push people a little bit more than a multivitamin a day, but I think there is something there that it's really the follow through in the early stages that you're really looking for. and that belief of, oh, I can do this thing.
And that's also why I feel like fitness is the gateway drug to nutrition. because it's an easier hack once a day, three, four times a week than it is to just every single time you have to eat to be better.
So, it's that kind of initial push that, oh yeah, I can do this thing.
Right. I love that you identified the multivitamin and the glass of water.
Because for my son, it was the multivitamin, right?
He would kick a ball and he would cry. So it's like if we don't get him to just take the multivitamin and be like, Oh my God, I can do that.
Yeah, he's out. He's out of the game. So it is all about the individual tolerances, the individual thresholds.
And I really like that you highlighted that because, you know, one of the kind of big belief systems I have right now is that we've kind of swung the pendulum a little bit too far.
It's like, hey, as long as you have a standing desk And as long as you take the stairs, not the escalator, and you park far away at the grocery store, this is what you need to do.
And it's like, I get it. It's the multivitamin.
What you're doing is saying like, I can do those things.
But we also have to be aware, if you take a multivitamin and you have a glass of water, but no other behavior changes, nothing's gonna change.
Like nothing will change. So that has to be, as you said, the gateway, the Trojan horse to something more.
And if you don't give them the more and actually show the change, they're out.
So this is where it's like that minimal viable dose.
Like what is the lowest amount of threshold that we can do that they will actually see it though, right? it doesn't need to be they need to see it because like they might not see anything from a glass of water and the multivitamin But what they're seeing there is like agency and responsibility and consistency.
And then you give them the next thing and it's like, okay.
And we kind of stair step our way up to this thing and foot hurdles in the beginning.
And then when they build up confidence and I can take a fail here or there, like, Now my son shoots from outside the full box.
And if he, you know, dribbles one off the side, like no big deal.
Cause like he understands the process now.
Yeah. Let's jump to another question. Let's do instead of why am I failing or why am I stuck? a better question might be, what is this experience teaching me or how can I adapt my approach? you see something that you deal with a lot is plateaus.
So maybe we can start there. And how do you help people First, just recognize maybe the reasons for the plateau or the reality behind the plateau, but then, of course, kind of usher them beyond it.
I actually wasn't thinking about a plateau when you first started reading the question.
I was thinking about the days when they're supposed to hit a certain number and it's just...
Nowhere close. Nowhere close. Go there then.
Double the number what it should be. Those are the exact days that we need to change.
Like the days that you need to track your food are not the days that go according to plan.
They're the days that did not go according to plan.
And then that teaches us of like, well, what happens when I'm not prepared?
So yeah, I mean, I think ultimately when you hit these failures, In quotes, it's really showing you how you need to make progress because everything else is going fine.
It's on those failure points where there's the weak link.
And so with the plateau one, it could be a few things.
I mean, plateaus and nutrition definitely occur for a few different reasons.
Some of it is just the log. They're getting a little bit tired with logging.
Logging fatigue happens. They're getting a little bit loose about that stuff.
So we have to consider that and double down on accuracy.
Some of it is just the nature of biology and we have to make the challenge a little bit harder and maybe make the caloric deficit bigger or increase exercise or something like that.
But I think the ultimate kind of concept here is the failure point is actually what needs to change.
There's a lot of other things that could be going okay, fine, and well.
But those aren't really what's holding you back.
It's the exact week length that's kind of holding you back.
Patrick, can you give me the second part?
So the question was, the original question was, why am I stuck?
Why am I failing? And you said, what's a better version?
Yeah. It might be, what is this experience teaching me or how can I adapt my approach?
Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Very cool. Well. The obstacle is the way, right?
This like stoic philosophy 101. Right, right.
There we go. Someone has said this before, right?
Yeah, exactly. So we are certainly not the first to kind of reframe this.
So I really like what EC said there though, in terms of like it, when things are going well, When things are going well, there's not a whole lot of lessons to learn from winning.
Like there's not a lot to grow and evolve from when it's 75 degrees sunny and you're on the beach having a margarita.
Like there's not a lot to be learned there.
The learnings happen when you struggle, right?
That's that's evolution. Like that is the only time it does happen is when an organism is forced to struggle against.
The caterpillar becoming a butterfly needs to struggle against the cocoon. to be able to grow the strength to flap its wings.
Like that is just what needs to happen. So I think that is mostly just a perspective change of, you know, when this gets hard, it's not woe is me.
Why does this happen to me? It's a little bit of what E.C. said, which I also love the way Brian Johnson says it's not live to 100 Brian Johnson, but train heroic Brian Johnson.
Right. Wow. We're quoting who? Okay, here we go.
But he says when you have a protocol. You have a protocol, and his protocol is 10 pull-ups, 1,000-meter row, 100 burpees.
That's his protocol, and he does it in journals and does that.
And when things are going well, like, okay, cool, do it.
But when things are going bad, right? When things aren't going well is the time to double down on your protocol.
So as he said, like when it gets really hard, that's the days that we really need to be tracking because we can learn so much out of that.
Heather's the best I've ever seen of this.
When she's sick, she doesn't... Watch Netflix and have a bowl of ice cream.
She makes sure she's getting even better nutrition.
When she feels sad for whatever reason, depressed, or that's when she goes for... extra exercise and more sleep and better food.
It's like Those are the times that we need to double down on our protocols.
Like, what are the things that you're doing?
Brian Johnson saying. And you got it from Tiger Woods coach, which is Tiger Woods coach was working with him while he was trying to make his comeback.
And Tiger Woods coach was like, hey, so when you were killing it, what are the 10 or so things that you would do on a daily basis?
And he was like, I would eat this, I would train this way, I would sleep like this, I would watch this film.
He goes, how many of those things you're doing now?
And he's like, maybe five. It's like. Well, like what do you do when you're at your best?
And the other biggest highlight of this is like, When things are going really well and you have lots of free time and low stress, meditation is cool.
Like, okay, that's awesome. That's when most people meditate, when they're low stress and they have lots of free time.
The time that you need to meditate, need not want, but need is when you are high stressed.
When you have no time, you have the 17 different priorities pulling at you and you don't know what to do.
It's a little bit of that thing is like when things aren't going well, first, just recognize like, hey, this is the path to betterment.
It's so hard, so much easier for me to say that now.
It's so much harder for me to remind myself of that in the moment when I'm going through it.
But that's the protocol I go through myself is like I when I feel the trigger, when I feel my body start to heat up, when I feel my stomach start to do the little knot thing, when I feel like the stress happened and I've become crazy attuned to this thing now. that I can feel the trigger, I don't go and ride the wave.
I try to like hop off, look at the wave and go, okay, what's the best way to kind of like navigate this thing?
Because biology is just saying like survival, survival, survival. and you go into this fight or flight freak out mode.
But we want to be able to go, hey, this is an obstacle.
If I take it with the right perspective, we can learn from this thing, we can grow, we can evolve.
So anything from I'm plateauing because you plateau and you might go like, okay, like I just got to get back on it.
But like, okay, are we plateauing because it's nutrition?
Like maybe you are dialing nutrition. There's plenty other factors that like what's happened with your sleep?
What's happening in your relationships? Are you stressed out at work?
Did you change up your workout routine? Are you doing a different time?
Is there other demands on your life? if you don't kind of like recognize the trigger of failure points, as you said, like recognize the points, we're going to be at the whim of reacting to that thing instead of actually trying to like learn from the from a bigger perspective.
Mm. Yeah, and I think, I mean, I keep thinking about nutrition ways, obviously.
But yeah, I mean, I think also when somebody hits a plateau, it's like you have to figure out why this is your failure point because this is where you've been stuck before like all of the other days you know you have these other seven perfect days That wasn't the problem.
The problem is this day and this plateau.
And if you want to make more progress, you kind of have to push through.
I also had to remind myself, I think Brian Johnson is also the name of the liver King.
No, there's three Brian Johnsons? There's many.
There's many, I know. Wait, there's three Brian Johnsons?
You're like, no, there's more than that.
But when you first said Brian Johnson, I did think about the guy who lived to 100, and then I was like, but wait, that's the liver king's name, too.
For real? Somebody's got to look that up.
Is that the real thing? I know. I'm like 90.
That's what I was going to. All right. So if you want your son to be famous, you rename him Brian Johnson.
Yeah. You see, while you look it up, I want to add one thing, which is of the questions that we've been looking at, this idea of asking better questions.
He is, Brian Johnson, the liver king. Wow, that's impressive.
What can I learn from this challenge? We got to move on, guys.
We do? It's not important. Yeah, it's not important.
Of these questions, this idea of what can I learn from this, whatever it is, setback, challenge, plateau.
I think this is the one that is can be the scariest because what it actually is saying is, what do I have to do differently?
What do I have to change? What do I have to. what uncertainty do I have to embrace in order to get to, again, wherever I'm trying to get to?
And I think that this is the spot that people get stuck because it's a lot easier to say, And I'll throw these guys under the bus.
I've done the whole 30 once and I kind of worked and I know how to do it.
So I'm just going to do that again instead of... you know what I'm going to do?
I'm going to take EC's three pillars method, which, you know, okay, I've got to eat all these vegetables and I've got to track my protein, I've got to weigh and measure, etc.
The change is the scary thing. The change is the thing that people I think are really resistant to.
And so when we do feel stuck, when we do feel like we're failing, I think it's really easy to just say, well, I have to I just have to work harder.
I just have to be more disciplined. I just have to whatever.
When the answer might be, I have to do something entirely different And with that brings all the scariness that change brings.
So it's almost that fear angle of the question.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And it's going to come with some of those trade-offs that I think that Ben alluded to earlier.
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think about even the same with fitness and walking into a gym like yours, Ben, it's like, well, I'm 46 now and I used to just be able to eat whatever and do some bicep curls and I looked good and like, oh, that's not working anymore.
The easy thing to say is either throw your hands up and say, well, it's not in my control, I give up.
Or the second easiest thing is I'm just going to do what I used to do and convince myself that somehow it will work this time.
Whereas the real, the hard thing and the real thing is maybe I do need to walk into Comptroy New England and put some money down and show up five to six times a week and do something really hard.
And it doesn't surprise me that most people choose one of the former and not the latter.
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So instead of asking, how do I fit my life around this program or my diet.
A better question might be, how do I adapt my health and fitness practices to my current life circumstances and priorities?
Well, thank you, EC. Yeah, I mean, I think I actually heard this from Molly at Street Parking First, but she was really big on you have to stop trying to fit your life into your nutrition plan.
And I see that a lot with clients. well, when my life slows down a little bit and when this work project is over, when the kids get back to school is when I'm gonna start nutrition.
Right there you are devising the most imperfect plan that you're never going to stick to.
So you actually want to lean into it and think about like, what can I do now? what can I do now as opposed to what can I do at the most perfect state or the most perfect time because then you're devising then you're devising a plan that truly is sustainable.
And I think it ultimately, it kind of comes back to that 800 gram challenge thing.
Again, I don't think the 800 gram challenge is perfect.
I know that not everybody has success with it, blah, blah, blah.
But it's a lot of what can I do now? It's a lot of what can I do now without being perfect, without having everything figured out.
And yeah, can I just eat some grapes tomorrow?
So yeah, I mean, I see that all the time and I think what people don't realize is they're kind of kind of setting themselves up for failure because your life isn't this perfect stretch of 30 days that you have no distractions and no travel.
In fact, I'll have people like I'm going to travel for the masterclass.
And certainly if you're going to do backcountry camping in Russia, it might not be the best time to take the course.
But like... Yeah, you're going for a weekend trip.
Like that's life. Like you should do this now.
This is going to be the most representative thing that you've ever done before.
So let's do it. When we used to do nutrition challenges, one of the biggest – and they were usually 30 days.
One of the biggest pushbacks I would get is, oh, man, yeah.
That sounds awesome, but I'm going to Vegas for a bachelor party.
Right. Yeah. And? So I can't do it. And are you planning on eating?
It's this idea, it's like how perfect becomes the enemy of the good.
And I think it's really important to... Don't wait for the perfect time.
Don't wait for your life to line up to when you'll finally be able to do that thing.
But what can you do right now? in your life.
And sometimes we have to move our life around is what I was saying before is like, you have to kind of be realistic.
If you're looking to lose 50 pounds, you're not going to do it the same way You got to where you are now, like the actions you've done over the last five to ten years are what got you to where you are.
If you want to be somewhere substantively different, we need to do substantively different actions.
So we do need to make the change. We can't do this without making the changes.
So I think what people are trying to do is like, here's my lifestyle.
I want a six pack, but I drink a six pack every night.
It's like, well, you can't have the two. like one of them is going to give.
So you just have to kind of like understand that there is no Perfect, there's no perfect time to start.
Perfect is the enemy of good. All the while, if you want real change, you have to make real change.
I just like the idea of that, like massive.
This is in business talk, but massive amounts of imperfect action.
Stop trying to analyze, try to figure it out.
What's the perfect plan, the perfect decision, perfect time to start.
When am I going to like, I need to get the perfect running shoes.
Like, just like, just go take enough action.
That'd be unreasonable amount for you to fail.
Like that's all it is. That's all this is.
Take so much action, it would be unreasonable for you to fail based off what you've done.
How do you balance that? Well, I guess you kind of gave the example, but I'll just continue with the question.
How do you balance that with finding the right threshold for them?
Right, I guess for you. And I was going to say that it was the, you know, Bodie taking 100 shots at the goal line.
It's going to be hard. Right. It doesn't be hard, but it's so much action.
Like we didn't go try to figure out, like, I need to hire a coach or should he go to a camp?
Or should he not be playing soccer? Should we get a different ball, different cleats?
It wasn't just like... paralysis by analysis.
It wasn't also waiting for the perfect day to go to the perfect thing.
It was, Bodie, let's just take a hundred shots where you can't miss. like just huge amounts of action and like after those 100 shots we were at a we're on a new playing field, like we had leveled up to another place that we can then go take the actions out of that.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good point.
The massive amounts of imperfect action can't be, and I know that's hard to define, but can't just be flailing.
It can't just be grasping at straws. It has to be something that sort of is measured in the direction that you want to go.
And it might be a small step, but it's a bunch of steps at that small step level.
That's right. Yeah. How do you advise folks to find the right path?
Because, Ben, I think you're right. There is a tension there. of making this fit into your life so that it's not you're not setting yourself up for immediate failure.
And it's also you do have to change if you want something to change.
How do you how do you find the balance between those two things between between realism of like, this is what my life looks like, this is the reality of what I deal with on a day to day basis, And these are all the things that need to fundamentally change in order for me to make progress.
Like, how do you How would you advise somebody to think about finding the right balance between those two things?
You have them ask better questions, Patrick.
Honestly, with the coyness aside, it's like, do you really want this?
Yeah. Like there's people like to talk about getting healthy. across every spectrum.
It's like they like to talk about the aspect of that.
They like to talk about being more financially stable.
But it's like, okay, I get it, but are you willing to cut back on your expenses?
Like that's the like that's your either need to uplevel your skills so you can make more an hour.
You either need to reduce what you're spending so you can invest it.
And there is no other way. Like you either need to earn more or you need to spend less so you can create passive income on the side.
It's really simple. If you want to Lose weight, it's really simple.
Like it's just like you have to eat less to lose weight.
There's some really sound strategies to that.
Like are we willing to do this?
And I think it's a really good question.
It's like, is this the things that we really do want to do?
So it's one of the things that it's almost like vetting.
Like if I'm gonna work with somebody, I actually want to like, if they're saying that they have a certain goal, I want to present to them what the process would look like to achieve that goal.
So if they say that they want to, you can fill in the blank, right?
Extreme, like run a sub three hour marathon.
I want to be able to make it to the CrossFit games.
I want to. be a division one athlete. I want to lose a hundred pounds, like substantive goals.
Okay, in order to achieve that, I'm not saying it's gonna be specifically this, but this is kind of holistically what that's gonna look like in terms of, change to our lives.
It's going to look nothing like what you've done right now because we're nowhere near, assuming that they're nowhere near those things, right?
It's gonna take a lot, a lot of work. Where is our, and then fill in the blank, our motivation, our inspiration, how committed to this process are you?
And then just understand that. So we're not, as EC said, not just like flailing around.
Like we're also not just like... kidding ourselves like i i really no i really want this and i really am willing to make those changes We have to, if we want to see change, we have to make change. like kind of fundamental rule number one.
And that's the, I think that's the question there is, If we're gonna take, and again, these are the big changes, right?
We want to do those. If we're gonna make smaller changes, it's smaller changes.
Like somebody wants to get healthy. What does that mean to you?
Right? Well, I just like a little bit more energy.
Maybe if I lost five pounds, I think I could probably run a mile without stopping, but I'd really like to be able to run a mile without stopping.
I coach my kids soccer games. I don't be winded afterwards.
Okay, like that's not gonna be wholesale changes.
We can do that three days a week, going to the gym, cleaning up our food, make sure we get enough sleep.
We can do those things. The best thing to do is to lay it out on the table of like what is the realistic – because what you don't want to do is go –
I want to be financially free and retired by 35.
Okay, like you're 21 right now. Like what are we willing to do to get there?
And they're like, well, I'm not really into working 40 hours a week.
I certainly don't want to take the risk of opening my own business.
I think I'd like to work at the Gap." Is the gap even still a thing?
Probably not, right? I think so. You get the idea, right?
We have to line up reality with expectations.
Yeah, kind of in the beginning when you're talking about expectations, I love that.
That's one thing that I try to work with my clients a lot on to reframe it.
But I do think there is this... good tension or however we're going to, I don't know, straddle this tension of like letting them know what that end state looks like that they've said that they want and and make sure that they are doing the threshold level where they can be right now.
So just to... I'll not do nutrition, I'll do fitness.
But I think you're pretty adamant that like five days a week is a good goal for people working out right so like hey if you want to be healthy to this level of fitness we're going to be at five days a week and their first thing might be like well i'm not active at all and getting here twice a week is difficult it's like, OK, cool, we're going to start it twice a week.
But knowing that it's five days a week is that we want to get to in that process might actually take a year.
I don't know what it is, but I think I think that's important because there is this level of like, well, what's the right threshold?
Make sure it's in the right direction of where we want to go.
That's the five day a week example, but also meeting them where they are, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, completely. Because also what you don't want to I'm not saying like this isn't a matter of scaring them off.
This about having the honest conversations either with them or with yourself.
Right. Which is like, am I willing to make real changes to my life?
Because if you go, hey, what we're looking for is for you just to show up to the gym two days a week right now.
And they're like, I'm good. Cool. Like that then up levels them.
And now they're playing at that level field.
And as you said, then they plateau or they do this and you go like, okay, now we're going to get to here.
And we go three days a week and we go so on.
They don't need to go from zero to 100 miles an hour on day one.
But we also have to recognize that there does need to be change.
And that's the big thing that we need to do is if somebody is coming up and unwilling to make the change, we're not going to see it.
And it doesn't need to be the wholesale change.
It doesn't mean, okay, Bodhi, this means that you're going to be practicing every day in the backyard, taking 100 shots.
He would never, ever do that. Right. And it's the same thing with yourself.
Like we just have to recognize that it's not it's not what you did before.
It's what you need to do going forward that's going to be different.
Yeah, I think I was just thinking about asking a different question in this scenario.
Somebody could ask the question of like, well, how many days do I need to come to get in shape?
And really the better question to ask is, are you willing to make the changes to get in shape? you know, without asking the specific thing.
And obviously that number can change over time with their with their proven identity and competency and follow through.
Yeah. And honestly, the answer to that might be like, one more day a week than you did for the last year.
It's like, how many are you doing now? And they're like, zero.
It's like, well, one will get you better.
You know, obviously like two is better than three is, but if they've been doing three days a week for the last 10 years, without changing their progress, something has to change.
Intensity, frequency, duration, something has to change in order to, as you said, if they're gonna stagnate, kind of like the laws of biology, we need to force a new demand into the system.
Yeah, for sure. Last question about questions, which is if we were to zoom all the way out and you gave one or you had one piece of advice for all of us, to start to ask better questions in order to create better results.
Any single piece of advice based on this conversation or things we haven't talked about yet?
Get really clear on what result you want.
Hmm. And track that, track that. I think, and I see this all the time with nutrition questions, but what if this elevates my cortisol and what if...
What if this doesn't increase my MPS, muscle protein synthesis rates?
And what happens to my inflammatory markers after I eat this food?
It's like... what are you looking at you want weight changes let's look at weight you want pull-ups look at pull-ups You want your fasting glucose to change?
Look at fasting glucose. So really get clear on what the outcome you want is.
And there can be all these other... silver shiny objects to maybe distract you, but do not lose sight of checking in with that outcome that you're after.
Ben, last word. I would say relative to especially having you laid out the enemies of questions.
So my advice would be to ask better questions.
If I was to think of the antidote to fear, this seemingly sense of expertise is, or lack of biases, hubris or time, it would be to be curious.
Just like the way you get better at anything is by doing it.
So if you're trying to get better at asking questions, ask more questions.
Yeah, that's good. Great point and great place to wrap up.
EZ, thank you so much. I always enjoy talking to you.
Ben, always good to see you. All right, back to pickleball.
Thank you very much for tuning into the show.
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Keep building health, finding freedom, and living with your heart on fire.
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