Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the new podcast under the Asian Boss Girl umbrella.
Hi guys, my name is Emily.
I am the older sister you've always wanted.
My name is Jen.
I'm the cheese ball in your snack drawer.
And I'm Mads, your girl who thinks everything is really that deep.
Going through your 20s is like such a roller coaster.
And so we want to kind of like hold your hand through that.
And one of the really difficult parts of growing up that we've all lived with and found, because we all live apart from each other.
I'm from Kansas.
I live in San Francisco.
Jen is from New Hope, Pennsylvania.
She lives in Seattle.
We have long distance relationships and it's really difficult.
And so we have all struggled with the feeling of being lonely.
And it's something that we don't feel people talk about enough.
Jen, you have some really interesting thoughts around what loneliness feels like and what it looks like.
Yeah yeah uh, when thinking about loneliness, i feel like i've often seen it, you know, in media displayed as a very like melancholy emotion, like it's lots of like blues and purples when i think about it and how it's often portrayed, and it's maybe quiet and there's isolation, you're alone and it can look like that a lot.
But when I thought about loneliness, I thought about it as a very like loud emotion and a loud experience, because there's so much like like emotion and voices in your head that I think are like longing for something.
So a lot of emotions are maybe reactions to things that happen, like sadness or anger, but loneliness is like longing for something that doesn't exist yet or something that you desire.
But there's a gap.
There's like this big gap in this chasm.
And so yeah, I just well, as I was thinking about loneliness, I was like i feel like it's portrayed as this, like melancholic emotion, but it's actually really loud and how it feels, or how, at least how i feel when i feel loneliness, it's like this, like scream, it demands attention, you know.
So yeah, i don't know if you guys feel loneliness is the worst when it doesn't make sense, so like maybe when you're not actually alone, but you feel lonely because you know that nobody's seeing you or nobody's like hearing you, so it doesn't make sense.
When you're like at a family reunion but like maybe you don't get along with them and you don't want to be there and you're like this is kind of lonely.
Or like you're on the subway, which is packed, or you're on a public transportation and you don't know anybody and you're like how could there be so many people here?
But like i don't matter.
I feel really lonely sometimes walking through the park on my walks home um, at the end of the day, and like it's golden hour and everything looks so idyllic.
And why does everyone look so happy at parks If I'm having a bad day?
The kids are laughing, the families are together and I'm like everyone looks so happy with their dogs.
And I feel so much more lonely during those moments where you just feel like everyone is experiencing joy that you can't be a part of.
So kind of going back to being surrounded by people but feeling like you're not a part of it, that separation.
I was at a family dinner during Christmas, and my sister had just made it official with her husband.
It was her boyfriend at the time, and they had just started dating.
And that's when I just broke up with someone.
And so there was like the celebration.
Of course I was so happy that she found someone, but it was just like I was confronted with my loss, like right then and there, and they're holding hands and we're all together as a family, my extent, my uncle, my aunt, my cousins, everyone their kids.
And then it was just like, everyone had their person and then it was me.
And that was, I felt so lonely.
I felt the tears just like here.
And you're like slipping them back in.
And they were like, oh, what's wrong?
And I just felt like I didn't really have the right to say anything.
Like oh, everyone's happy, but I'm not.
Yeah, that sounds that's like the worst thing to say on a holiday right, because you don't want your loneliness to come at the cost of something.
Yeah, i don't want it to get everywhere right, so i'll just like and smile.
I don't know if you guys have heard the term.
It's very lonely at the top, which i know yeah, each of you have felt individually because everyone is so accomplished here um, and so smart, and they're sometimes when you're so smart i'm really not trying to toot our own horns, but they really are some of the smartest people i know.
It's it's kind of a burden because you, you have so much to say and you have so much to um, You have so much to give to the world, so much insight, and some people just don't want to hear it or they don't have the capacity to understand what you're saying.
So it's just like living life as someone that has a lot of knowledge but doesn't really know where to share.
It can be very lonely because you're like I have so much to say but there are no ears to hear it.
There's nowhere to put it.
And so, especially in a creative career like mine, I'm doing comedy content online.
It just feels very lonely for me, because I started off when I was still living in Plano, which is a suburb of Dallas, and no one there is really doing or pursuing something like that.
Either that or I didn't find anyone there. but I felt like I had to navigate it on my own.
So for the first like two, three years of doing it, I had to go through like, what's a hate comment?
How does that make me feel?
How do I navigate that?
And so it's just like.
It's very lonely when you're the only person doing something yeah, or even like in the corporate world, when you're a little tiny girl and you're in a room full of men and you have, you see issues or you point out things and they just don't take you seriously.
Yeah um, also because we look really i look like a child, so you know that adds to it, but that gets really.
It like gets you down, like because you can take it so much but You're only human and at the end of the day it gets old.
And it's like a form of loneliness, because they don't see you for your value and no one wants to listen to you.
And you're like, why am I even here?
Was your career very male heavy um, and one of a couple of my roles it was it's not currently.
Right now i work at a company with a ton of women, so it's great um, when loneliness becomes a really loud emotion.
It's like very overwhelming and it demands to be felt and addressed.
So is there a moment where you felt that like tidal wave of loneliness come?
Yeah, i think one of the common things um, for young adults these days is kind of transplanting and moving to another city and so a lot of times you move away from the community that holds you down and makes you feel grounded and makes and they know who you are, so you don't feel like you have to put up a front or anything.
At least there's a level of comfort there.
But you might be more comfortable in the city that you've moved to um, and it takes more work to put down roots and establish relationships there and that process is really taxing and it can feel so difficult and it takes so much work and so much time and a lot of times like it's not even just what you can do.
The other parties have to be participatory in it.
So If you're putting all the time and effort into this friend group but the friend group doesn't love you like, that sucks.
And then you go home and you visit your family, and then maybe you don't like your family, but you're visiting them or you do like them and leaving them is so difficult.
Like I think all of us have talked about leaving home.
It's like we just cry when we visit home and it's so difficult and it does not get easier because you're like leaving behind this community that is so deeply woven into the story of who you are.
But then it's also difficult because you have to balance wanting to be independent and living your own life in another city and pursuing those dreams that you have that like nobody else understands at home, but then also not wanting to be lonely and so like do you chase Getting to the top?
Do you chase your dream?
Do you chase what people don't understand and give up community?
But community is what keeps you alive.
Or do you stay in the community and feel sad about not being able to pursue what your dreams are?
Just whatever that dream is.
It could be a job.
It could be people.
It could be a place.
A lot of things come at the cost of loneliness, and so it really makes you wonder, because when you're deep in it and you feel so awful, you're just like sitting on the floor, like why am i here?
Yeah, you know.
And then you're like wait, i chose this yeah, for myself.
Right.
Why did I think this was a good idea?
Why did I do this?
I have so many friends back home where I have so many friends in X, Y, and Z. Yeah.
And you know how you want it to feel.
And when it doesn't feel that way and you feel that dissonance and that gap, it just it makes it even worse because you're like I know this is what I chose and this is what I envisioned to feel.
Yeah, but i'm not feeling it.
So what am i missing?
Was i wrong this whole time?
Loneliness creates a lot of self-doubt as well, of course.
Yeah yeah, like.
Am i doing the right thing?
Why is it supposed to feel this bad to be on this path?
I think part of it is like spending time honestly first with yourself, to face it yourself.
Like you can't be vulnerable in the things that you haven't been willing to face yourself.
Like I can't share something that I have not processed and open the box myself, you know?
So step one, open the box.
Open the box that's dusty in the corner.
It's dusty in the corner that feels really scary.
Like open it up.
The thing you've been putting off for years but you just like always see it right there.
And you know that it's gonna be painful when you open it, or hard or confusing or messy.
But opening the box, letting the dust fall a little bit,
And you can take it slowly too, but then just allowing someone that you trust or that you feel a little bit of safety with, to like sit with the contents and the messiness of the box with you a little bit also creates such like safety and comfort.
Like you're not doing it alone.
So I think, pushing myself to share and to be like okay, this is like in progress, the box is open and it's strewn everywhere.
And I don't really know how to put it all back together together, but allowing people to see the messiness is like so beautiful and that's like i think, like we mentioned, just to like call back to the beginning, like what we hope to do here is like open our boxes together, you know yeah, process so much together yeah yeah, not the legs Full authentic self here, you know.
We erased it all.
Jen, if you feel comfortable sharing, can you share with us what box you've opened recently that you've gotten to process on your own?
See?
She feels so uncomfortable right now.
What was the box?
You're talking about?
A proverbial box, royal box for everyone.
We want to hear about your box.
I feel like there's a box related to like a lot of perhaps like what i perceived as mistakes that i've made in like a lot of my early college years with um, just being a like a freshman This is a whole other story that you'll hear at some point but just like making a lot of mistakes, my freshman fall and living like the party life, like looking up at people and like being being like and like just caught up in that lifestyle that I feel like has followed me for a lot longer.
And I feel like I haven't had time and didn't have the like awareness for a long time to open that box and really process it.
But it's affected a lot of how I feel, like I receive love or give love, even in like friendships or like romantic relationships.
I feel like it's shown up in different ways and I'm now seeing with such greater clarity how much those roots go back so deep.
But then also, I feel like I feel so encouraged and I feel so much more free.
I'm like okay well, now we know what our tendencies are and what our like um, fears might be, what our desires are, all at once together and so, like we mentioned earlier, like it's scary to open the box, but you feel so free afterwards yes yeah, and you feel there's like there's such clarity with which you see yourself and actually helps you see other people more clearly too, and maybe going through something similar that you can just come alongside them and relate to them.
You can empathize, and then you can empathize much deeper yeah, yeah.
So i feel like there's there's a joy and a freedom and feeling like yeah, you faced everything in your attic and there's nothing.
There's nothing.
There's nothing, nothing to hide.
There's things that are imperfect, and you see it clearly and you know it and that's okay and And you're like that was messy.
And I'm still figuring it out right now.
But we're making progress.
You can see the growth and you see, yeah.
Yeah, the discipline of spending that time alone and addressing those things.
Yeah, doing the hard work.
It's difficult, but having a regular cadence can, in a weird way, combat the loneliness. yeah and it's important to be alone and like yeah and you're an extrovert too yeah yeah uh-huh yes i'm an extrovert and i need people but i know that sometimes i use them as like a pacifier like a pacifier like a crutch because i don't want to deal with the loneliness that i feel and there's so many layers under loneliness there could be like yeah i'm lonely i don't think i'm good enough i yeah yeah like people don't like me there's so many layers underneath that yeah and so if you could just like shut that up with just like a dinner with someone then you don't have to deal with any of that but like the the root cause and like the root belief that you have in your in your being and in your soul it's still there yeah and it's going to manifest and like how you interact with people like you said yeah so I think it is really good to have that time alone so you can just sit in that discomfort and just slowly one by one bring it out like I believe this about myself i believe that no one actually likes me why and to just like hold that and honor it to think about it and be like okay this is okay this doesn't mean i'm bad this doesn't mean i'm not worthy or i'm worth less or uncool or not very cool i really want to be cool We've had this argument many times.
This is another episode.
She is very cool.
She looks cool.
She's so cool.
I look cool, but inside am I. Not very cool.
We know the truth. don't let it fool you everybody yeah yeah but like yeah but examining and getting to the root of that why do i why do i believe this about myself what does that feel like in my body and i think you need that alone time and that discipline to just sit and not be like hey do you want to hang out with me i need to call my best friend right now i need to call my mom like to be like no no music no podcast no nothing it's just me and my thoughts and that's honestly i think for our generation the most scary thing yeah in being alone is like i have so many thoughts because i'm bombarded by information constantly yeah they're my phone like There are some days that I realize, like I go back in my day, I'm like, there has been, there has not been a single hour where I've been away from a screen.
It's either my small screen, my medium screen, or like the big screen on the wall.
There's so many screens and all you're doing is intaking information and we don't really prioritize or discipline ourselves to just sit and be like what did I intake?
Do I believe this?
Do I wanna keep this information in my head?
Does this inform how I see myself?
Because it does, everything that we consume does inform how we see ourselves.
So I think being able to sit alone and having that discipline to kind of like, It's kind of like you just finished grocery shopping.
You have to like bring it all to the table, take it all out of its bag and lay it out.
Be like, where do I put this?
Where do I put this?
Does this go in the fridge?
Does it go in the pantry?
Does this go in the trash?
Is this rotten?
I need to throw it out.
Like what are the lies?
I believe yes, about myself exactly, and i think if we, if we spend too much time with people, We don't get to really examine that.
You can talk to other people about it in a safe space if you have a best friend.
But there are some things about yourself that you need to deal with on your own.
Or not deal with, sorry, just think.
Just give it a think.
Honor that time and just be like, hmm.
Be curious.
Yeah, be curious about yourself.
Be curious about yourself.
Yeah, why we feel that loneliness.
Know yourself deeply.
I love that you share that perspective because as an extrovert, I can see how the tendencies are different from someone like me who's an introvert, or that he's an introvert like where it can be crowded out.
That time being alone can be crowded out by like time with people that those boxes don't get open.
But then sometimes introverts maybe spend so much time alone and can easily isolate or feel like that urge to go and connect can be harder.
Yeah.
I love that you shared that.
The discipline of being alone is such a great, like interesting phrase that I feel like is not really thought about around it being a discipline and spending to effort, to Like prioritizing.
If someone asked to hang out, like no, I'm actually busy.
I have a date with myself.
That is one of the hardest things for an extrovert to do.
Because I open my calendar and I see that in the evening I'm free.
So I'm like, of course I can give it to you.
But will I ever give it back to myself?
Yeah, and that's something that I've had to learn over the course of my entire adulthood.
And even now, I've been an adult for quite a while.
But I feel like just this year, I'm like, I have to say, I'm like, no, I'm busy.
And sitting with yourself, And examining yourself is a task that you need to prioritize.
And that is a task that will keep you busy.
So you're not lying, extroverts, you're not lying.
I'm curious, yeah, Mads, for you.
What's your box?
What are the things that?
Yeah, what's your box?
I love watching your box.
Yeah, let's open up everyone's boxes.
So i'm an introvert um, i do love people.
I'm like right on the line in the myers-briggs.
It's almost 50 50 for introvert extrovert.
So i love people.
But i also love spending time alone.
But when i am alone and feeling lonely as an introvert um, i do have to stop myself from going to social media or like calling someone you know just to pacify what those feelings are.
But i think when i do press in and i'm curious about why those feelings exist and where they come from, and i really dive deep and i dig into, I find the root cause of it and look at how far back it really goes.
Once I've walked that path on my own, I think it's really easy for me then to later see it happening within my friends.
It enables you to kind of like create a safe space from experience for the other people.
And you can also see what they're experiencing because you've been through it.
And you can see like oh, they're running away right now and you can call them out for it.
You know yeah yeah yeah, and you could be like i think you need to um, deal with that.
You know, and i know what you're doing because i've done it as well.
Yeah, and sometimes like it, like as a friend, it takes you doing that for the person to actually want to change something, because otherwise why, if they can get away, if the friend can get away with doing that, like why would they, you know, not address?
Why would they address it if it's difficult?
Because, like we don't, the hard things are like you just don't want to do them sometimes.
It's just that simple.
You know life is hard enough.
Like, why deal with the intangible hard things?
I can tell when she sees something, when she catches, like, what we're doing.
I know, I feel like we're in this together.
Yeah, like when she catches Like sometimes I'll say something that's kind of avoidant and like oh whatever, like a toss-away statement so we can move on, and she'll be like no,
Yep, she'll be like, what?
Let's explain that, shall we?
Let's circle back.
I know what you're doing.
And then I'll weaponize my friendship back with you and be like, if you care about me.
I know, she does that.
Yeah, she does that.
And she takes screenshots of conversations and then she'll be like remember, this is what you said months ago.
So I'm just putting this here.
Sorry, I don't want to be that person, but I'm going to be that person.
Just going to place this.
I'm like oh yeah, are you.
I don't have to say anything.
She's very good at keeping people accountable because i love you.
It's very loving.
I want you to grow.
I think this does touch on one of your like magical superpowers though, which is that you call people to hire.
Like you will not allow us we've both single-handedly experienced You will not allow us to drown in mediocrity, in unprocessed development.
You will always push us to refine, become better, face hard things so that we can be our full, most blossomed, colorful selves.
Yeah, you like laser vision will see it clearly and be like, I will not let you forget.
Very insightful.
She's very good at reading people.
That was the first thing I noticed about Madeline.
She's incredible at it.
She looks at you and then she'll watch you for maybe like five seconds and she has a very accurate read on the type of person you are.
It's very scary.
Yes, it's terrifying.
Yeah.
But it's also very comforting because you know she won't use it for evil.
She'll use it for good.
And she loves people.
She'll see you better than you can see yourself sometimes too.
Terrifying.
Which is really incredible.
It's like a mega mirror.
Yeah.
It's like I see what I see what you could be.
And I see that I see the parts where you are in the way of that.
Yeah, I just show you.
Yeah, you know, you're in control of this part.
You're just like, Are you sure you want to go hang out with this person?
Are you sure?
Like, don't you maybe want to spend some time alone tonight because you've had a really tough week?
Like, did you want to just like sit in your room and do a little thinking?
Didn't you say he was manipulative?
Yeah.
Didn't you say?
And you're like, oh, okay.
Didn't you say he made you feel terrible?
I thought you said you had the ick insert screenshot drops the receipts.
Oh, you're hanging out with him again.
I thought you didn't like him and honestly honestly, sometimes not saying anything speaks louder than saying something.
You know yes, and just i'm just asking you oh, really is enough.
You know, that's all i gotta do sometimes yeah, and then we know that she sees and we're like okay, we need to go think about that.
Yeah yeah, but take your time, you're right, i'm gonna cancel my plans and have a little thinky.
Maybe i won't go see him.
So this leads us to our concluding question, which is is loneliness a curable thing or is it just a part of life?
And my hot take is that we shouldn't cure it, because there's obviously this most extreme forms, which definitely it's so overwhelming, but there's a healthy amount of loneliness.
I think it's so clarifying.
It allows you to know what your longings are for and Think it's it's it's like actually incurable So the more we can embrace it and know how to manage it know how to like bring all those beautiful things that we've talked about from it like that's the goal instead of like getting rid of the bad it's actually allowing it to just have space to sit with it and i think loneliness is what makes us human it's just a part of life and we can't run away from it even culturally i feel being american it gives a lot of way to being lonely because we are so independent and that's just what we were taught must show weakness yes this is what we're taught from a very young age like you you be the best that you can be yeah you reach for the stars and if people aren't going to join you then just leave them and so even in our culture there's a lot of yeah like independence but with the hyper independence hyper independence we just we don't realize it comes with so much loneliness yeah um but not just in american culture i feel like even in like Asian culture where it's very communal, you can still feel so lonely because you feel forgotten.
You feel like, okay, we're doing this for the hive.
We're doing this for the beehive and we're all in this together and we're doing this together.
But like, what about me?
So there's really no way that you can escape loneliness.
And it is something that does make us human.
But like Jen said, it's something that kind of illuminates where our longings lie.
And I think if we follow that and sit in that discomfort and are okay with that, I think we can really learn how to know ourselves even more and even more deeply.
So cool.
Oh, thank you yeah, thank you so good.
Yeah, so i don't think it's loneliness is something to cure, it's something to use.
We're so happy for you to join us.
Please feel free to keep your hands and feet outside of the ride at all times.
We're gonna have a great time.
Yes.
Thanks for joining us.
We're so excited to just connect with all of y'all.
I know we're new faces, so just getting to know us and know what we're all about is part of this journey together.
We're just so excited that you're here.
You're listening.
Again, my name is Emily.
My name is Jen.
And I'm Mad.
And we are done.
We out.
