Discussion keeps the world turning This is Roundtable You're listening to Roundtable, I'm Steve Hatherly together today with Nihong Lin and Yuxian.
Coming up... Echoism.
It's like being a background character in your own life, always muting your desires to amplify others.
It's people pleasing on expert mode, where you become so good at accommodating others you forget you're allowed to take up space, too.
After that, if you have Office Chair butt, you may still be working, but your butt is fully retired.
We'll talk about the problem and some possible solutions.
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And now, could the relentless need to be liked, to be the perfect listener, the endless giver, the one who never takes up space, slowly erase your own voice?
Echoism, often called the mirror opposite of narcissism, isn't just about humility or kindness.
It's something quieter, more insidious.
It's a reflex to mute your desires, apologize for your own existence, and confuse self -sacrifice with virtue. But when does bending to others' expectations become a form of self -erasure?
In a world that rewards people pleasing and punishes neediness, how do we distinguish between genuine compassion and the fear of being, oh, I'm just too much for other people?
This is a really interesting topic.
And if I'm honest, I wasn't familiar with the term echohism before.
I was familiar with the personality traits, but I had never heard it defined before.
So this is going to be an interesting worthwhile conversation, too.
so what exactly is echoism and where does it come from well to talk about echoism we have to first talk about narcissism a familiar relatively more familiar term it is the personality disorder that's been a mainstay in pop psychology for decades now and the name of it came from narcissus a hunter from greek mythology who was handsome and he fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water.
So the idea is he loves himself so much that he is self -centered and he ignores everything around him.
So what is he ignoring?
A supporting character in the movie of all these.
It is the echo and echoism related character.
And in the Greek myth of echo and narcissus, Echo was a lively nef.
Yes, who loved to talk, but the gods punished her, they took away her voice leaving her able only to repeat the last words she heard. Right, so because Echo was in love with Narcissus, but Narcissus only talked about himself, Echo could only repeat what he said which is, she could only say, you're amazing, you're handsome, I love you, you're so good looking, because that's what he was saying to himself and that's That's why the name Echo was you, she could only echo.
And there, that's where Echoism comes from, right?
It's that you are only echoing the other people in your life, what they are saying, you're not taking care of your own needs.
And that is why Arjotan, a psychologist and author of The Leader's Guide to Resilience, described it as this, an echoist is a person who does not appear to have much desire of their own only mirroring and reflecting back what the other person usually a more dominant person says yeah echo is they don't like attention a lot of the time they see that they can see that as being selfish if other people are paying attention to them echo it will also avoid complaining they will do anything they can to avoid drawing extra attention to themselves.
That's all sounding way too familiar as I am trying to get away from this.
But hey, nowadays we hear a lot of people talking and videos showing how to avoid getting around with this disorder called NPD, the Narcissist Personality Disorder.
but in my personal perspective there aren't enough talk and information about how to avoid being ecoists themselves.
I think it's celebrated a lot of the time and maybe we'll get to that point in just a sec but I find it quite ironic that there's a really close connection between narcissists and eco -ness I would think that there wouldn't be but one kind of inspires the other yes and it's kind of like a sad perfect match you love yourself and your love for yourself is celebrated by another person who is encouraged to talk more about the narcissistic personality than about themselves so yes they are definitely interdependent upon each other they encourage each other and with the perfect match, the part of the personality
would only get bigger and bigger, because I do not believe that one person can be a pure narcissist person and another person can be a pure echoeist person.
It's more like a little part, a little symptom in our personality, it's always a spectrum.
And if, sadly, as an echoeist, you're with a narcissist?
That's dangerous. And the experts say that this can come from your childhood.
From having narcissistic parents.
Exactly, yeah. Echoism, they often shows up in people who grew up with narcissistic parents.
And when a narcissistic parent treats you as their favorite, they don't really care about how you feel or what you need, they only want you to be how they'd like you to be.
In some ways they are cultivating you in such presentable way, in such a presentable human being that it's almost like, well I'm not sure if it's the correct word, the best term to put it, a showoffable outcome of their years of educational efforts in some ways that they are putting you in front of people saying hey this is how obedient, again I'm not sure if that's the best word to describe it but that's how it rings a bell in my head right now, how obedient, how well behaving, how nice, quote unquote, a kid that I've been taught to be.
And these are extreme cases, by the way, that we're talking about here.
But what the experts say about this is that when a child has narcissistic parents, the child learns quickly the version of them that their parents want them to be, so they just become that version of them, which is which is echoic, it's a reflection, right?
It's a reflection of what the parents expect and what the parents want.
And what that does to the child.
Well, they want to keep their parents happy, right?
So they hide their true self.
They stop saying their opinions.
They stop asking for things.
They're always reflecting back the opinions of their parents, too.
Oh, yeah, I think so, too.
I agree with that, that kind of thing.
And over time, they forget who they really are.
But if you really think about it, I think there is no trait or no flaw in your personality that is purely harmful.
If it is purely harmful, it will not stay with you your entire life to you today.
It must be because with this flawed character in your personality, you gain something like for a child, if the child is a protection, it is self -protection.
You are creating a conducive environment for yourself by having this flawed, kind, not healthy kind of character.
And you continue to do that, and you continue gain something.
Even if when you grow up, when you stop living with your parents, you still seek quietly and without intention, seek the narcissist and stay with them and repeat the same pattern.
Repeat the cycle. Repeat the cycle.
And it makes you feel safe.
It makes you feel you're gaining.
You're still gaining a little bit favorability from this person that you're closely linked to.
Which is why, I think it is definitely important for us to identify the ecoist part in our personality.
But I also want to send the message out.
By being ecoist, what you really need is to be liked, to be favored by the other party.
You're trying to gain those things by saying, you're right, you're great.
You're seeking their approval.
You're definitely doing that.
And guess what if you stay as a Echoeist you're not going to gain their approval because they take you for granted.
They think this is what you do.
They do not think you have an opinion.
They think agreeing with them is a natural choice you will make.
It does not to make them feel good about the choice they're making, because your opinion does not matter.
So for those who are thinking being an Echoeist is making your environment, by saying environment, I mean, the social environment better.
It's harming you in the long term.
So, if you identify that, and you find it is really hard to change that part in your personality, you should think twice.
Yeah, talking about seeking their approval.
This happens in romantic relationships, too.
Sure. This is from Carrie McEvoy, a psychologist. She says that in a romantic relationship, egoism can be a defense mechanism that partners employ to satisfy a narcissistic partner.
again, seeking their approval.
She said, in a desire to be valued and seen, the echoist strives to live for the narcissist by serving that person's needs.
So instead of focusing on the echoist's own self, the other person in the relationship becomes the primary object and the echoist will subsume themselves, they'll be devoured by the narcissist. And psychologists will also say that every person can have a healthy degree of narcissism, but ECHOists don't have any degree of narcissistic characteristics to their personality.
We're talking about the extreme cases.
In that case, we're just talking about in general, every person has a little bit of a narcissistic quality and that's not an unhealthy thing to kind of put yourself first, put your own needs first sometimes, right?
It's not, you know, narcissists staring at a...
You're not going to a lake park and staring at your own image in the ponds saying, oh, I love myself so much. But saying, you know, I'm number one, I'm worthy of respect and I have my own opinions that deserve to be heard, like that healthy amount of narcissism.
But they'll say that echowists don't have that at all.
And in extreme cases, they'll even hate the fact that they have their own needs.
They'll ignore them completely.
Yeah. It's so wrong to feel ashamed by the fact that I matter.
So nowadays, we see another buzzword that's becoming popular in modern psychological conversation that is in Chinese is called Zhu Ti Xing or it can be directly translated as healthy selfhood or noticing yourself value and it can be trained because by training yourself to have this Zhu Ti Xing, this selfhood, it means you are encouraged to being this subject of your own actions rather than passively reacting to external expectations all the time, and it's about knowing what you want, taking ownership of your own choices, and acting with internal clarity as well.
Do we have more tips on how we can better train ourselves?
I mean, what you just said is easier said than done, but yeah there are tips for people.
If what you just listened to right now makes you feel like, oh, maybe I do have some of these eco -ist qualities.
Here's what experts will say, reject the idea that putting your own needs ahead of someone else's is always a bad thing, and then conversely, reject the idea that putting someone else's needs first makes you a good person.
And this is the point that I wanted to come back to, pardon me in the beginning, when I said, we celebrate this, don't we?
Oh, he never thinks about himself.
She always is taking care of her friends and family.
She she's so unselfish.
She never does anything for herself We celebrate that kind of person.
Don't wait we say Wow, you're awesome Because you'd never think of yourself first. So again, the experts will say stop thinking like that Taking care of yourself first sometimes is not only okay it's necessary.
and I think this kind of theory these kind of concept encouraging people to always always build their need first you still need to think about other people you still have to help other people and contribute to the community in a society yet taking care of yourself is if not the most important is also celebrated in today's internet in China I watch a lot of short videos from different psychologists to teaching people how to do that and one simple trick is if you feel like you are an ecoist or a people pleaser learn to say no. Learn to say no is a relatively easy tip.
Not saying reject any regular or any reasonable requests from anybody.
Just try to say no to those who are hurting your feelings.
Okay let's practice.
Okay, tell me to move on to the next segment.
Can you move on to the next segment, D?
No. Because then...
Okay, fine your needs are more important than mine.
Stay with us, we talk office chair butt right after this.
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It's Round Table Time.
I'm Steve with Nyahonglin and Yushan today.
Is your work day leaving you with a literal pain in the butt?
Or, perhaps more subtly, a droopy derriere?
How about a blunt, bland, boring backside, or a tablet -shaped tush?
I am making jokes, yes, but this just isn't a vanity concern.
This is a growing issue for many people who spend hours and hours seated at the office, often leading to weakened glute muscles and potential discomfort." So let's get into it.
They call it office chair butt.
What is it and why are we hearing about it now?
It's a colloquial term describing gluteal muscle atrophy and changes in butt lock shape due to prolonged sitting.
And I'm kind of like a, not victim, but a practitioner of that.
Because essentially when you sit for extended periods, like when you're working, eight hours a day all sitting down, your gluteal muscles or your butt muscles, they became inactive and can weaken and lose mass.
And this can lead to a flatter, wider or droopier appearance over time.
And also a phenomenon the New York Post is calling Office chair butt, so that's what that's how to answer your question see that's what's office chair But it's much nicer than a Chinese term now.
We're calling it a dead butt We're saying you're still alive now your butt is not you're alive, but your butt had a funeral That is why people are talking about it here in China as well We are trying to understand the logic behind it because if you sit down with the same posture too long certain muscle on your butt stopped working and they forgot how to work which means if you want to perform the same gesture the same position the same exercise other parts of the muscle would have to compensate right which would hurt other muscles as well and it's not just about being a couch potato we're not trying
to criticize this this is actually becoming part of the work lifestyle these days is a structural change in our daily lives that's impacting our bodies in ways that we're only now starting to truly recognize and talking about.
so yeah like there are so many ways that we can enhance this but yet in an office day when we're working and it's just like so natural to sit down for an extended long hours without thinking that we're actually doing it and it's hurting our body.
if you're not thinking think about that is your body dying.
I mean, we are making jokes again, but it's a it's a real thing, right?
Because that those are muscles in your body that need to be activated properly.
And when they're constantly relaxed and compressed, they can become inhibited.
And that's what you said.
Niu Honglin is that your other muscles, like your hamstrings or your lower back muscles will pick up the slack because your glute muscles are not doing the job that they're supposed to do.
And it's really important for things like hip extension and stability and proper movement.
So when you weaken them it can lead to imbalances throughout your entire body and you can start to feel it in other parts of your body to lower back pain, hip pain, knee pain, even poor posture.
And yeah, the headline, right, office chair butt, you know, haha, it makes people laugh and it is funny and cute.
But the underlying problem is actually a real one, isn't it?
And if we're looking at the bigger picture, according to an estimate by the World Health Organization, over one quarter of adults and more than 80 % of adolescents worldwide lack sufficient physical activity.
And another research shows that compared to individuals who sit for less than 4 hours a day, those who sit for 6 -8 hours daily have a 12 % higher risk of of death and heart disease and for those who sit more than 8 hours a day, the risk increases by 20%, so it's not only about the shape of your butt but also your overall health.
We're trying to use this a little sensational, a little funny way to talk about the issue just to, you know, wake you up and make you stand up.
I thought you were going to say the World Health Organization, you know, 30 % of the world has dead butts.
I was thinking, really?
I don't have that. Isn't the World Health Organization have more important things to talk about?
What can we do then, Yuxin?
How can we fix this?
Well, just consider investing in an ergonomic chair or standing desk.
That's what I did. I got my standing desk like two years ago, realizing just how much back pain I'm accumulating over the years, sitting down all the time.
And did you know that - Disclaimer ahead.
This is not an advertisement for any standing desk, but did you know that using a standing desk for three hours burns an extra 24 calories.
That's about the same number of calories in a carrot and it also helps you to just move around a little bit while standing and also with a standing desk even used intermittently it can help just break up sitting periods and engage different muscle groups.
Yeah you do that don't you?
Yeah do you find, do you find it really makes a difference?
I think so yeah it's just just soothing your lower back for my personal experience.
And while you're standing up, you can quietly practice some exercises, tightening your muscles, any part of your muscles you want to tighten.
It's a good exercise as well.
Yeah, with shifting weights and just moving around a little bit.
Yeah, there are other tips I found experts say that you can try the water cooler work out.
I don't know about this one.
They say when you go to fill up your cup with water, get some tea or whatever, do 10 squats while you're at the water cooler?
I don't see that happening.
Now in the Chinese market, there is dumbbells, or water bottle in the shape of dumbbells.
So you buy the water, you drink the water, you fill it in, and then you can use it as a dumbbell to exercise in the office.
You know what you should do?
Drink the water first. Makes the workout a lot easier.
See how I can manipulate anything to make myself more and more lazy.
There you go. If you're suffering from office chair butt, try to do something about it.
You can take any of those tips that we gave you today.
That is it for Round Table 4 this afternoon.
Thank you to Niu Honglin and Yu Shan for their time, for your time, and thank you as well for listening to our show.
We hope you had fun today, and please do come back again next time.
