Hi, crime junkies, surprise, surprise.
A little extra Ashley Flowers in your feed today but I'm coming to you for a very special reason.
I recently got the opportunity to interview Anna Kendrick about her new movie on Netflix, Woman of the Hour.
I'll tell you right up front, you guys, 10 out of 10, highly recommend.
Now our interview was originally for my Sirius XM show, Crime Junkie AF.
Which if you didn't know, you can find in the Sirius XM app or in the Crime Junkie fan club, but this interview was just too good.
It was so right up your alley that I begged Sirius XM to let me share it with all of you, because it turns out Anna Kendrick is just like us.
Cuz along with talking about Woman of the Hour, which by the way is her directorial debut, we also talked about her personal experiences, what led her to this story and her interest in true crime as a whole.
So whether you're an OG crime junkie or you just found us because you're a fan of Anna, this conversation is one that you don't wanna miss.
And if you're here because you're an Anna Kendrick fan, hi, me too.
And welcome to your ultimate true crime destination, where you can hear the true story behind Woman of the Hour and the stories behind hundreds of other true crime cases.
So take a listen right here right now, or if you want, you can catch a video version of this conversation on the Crime Junkie YouTube Channel.
And after you listen to this interview, don't forget to listen to the episode of Crime Junkie titled Serial Killer Rodney Alcala to hear the details of the case behind Anna Kendrick's Woman of the Hour.
I'm gonna link to it right in the show notes for you.
I promise you'll love it.
But you're gonna love this too, enjoy.
Hi, crime junkies, I'm Ashley Flowers.
And if you're watching this, you'll notice I'm not in my normal place.
I'm in a very special place with a very special guest.
Most of you will recognize her from her work.
She's multitalented in many ways from being an Oscar and Tony nominated actress to an author, singer, songwriter.
And you are now starring in Netflix's Woman of the Hour, and it is your directorial debut, Anna Kendrick, you guys.
And for my daughter who was giving me a guilt trip before I left, she would think I was so cool that I was meeting Poppy.
Oh, my God, I love that.
Wait, how the hell did she?
Oh, she's two and a half.
So you should. Okay, so this is a tricky age because when parents are like, my gosh, look, it's Poppy, and they introduce a child to me.
It's such a bummer.
It's like floods of tears immediately because I don't have pink skin and pink hair, and it's just - What a bummer.
It's awful. They're like, that's not Poppy.
I'm just gonna let her listen.
She's gonna be thrilled.
Great, great, great, great.
So I'm so excited. First of all, Woman of the Hour was incredible.
I got a little sneak peek.
Thank you so much. I truly loved it, start to finish.
Well, I feel like a loser fangirl in my merch right now.
I know, in your crime junkie.
But it's such cute merch.
Like, I get a lot of merch, and it's usually like, you ruined a perfectly good shirt.
This is so good. This is so cool.
Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
Thank you. Well, so yeah, speaking of being a crime junkie, how did you get to this place?
Because this is a little bit of a departure.
You've done some serious stuff.
But I mean, this is serious in a serious way.
No, I was like, I don't even think I've ever been in a movie that was this genre or this kind of intense of a movie.
Because even the thriller stuff that you've done has still been kind of lighthearted.
Yeah, yeah. And I am very aware that most people know me from one of a couple of lighthearted musical franchises.
Poppy. Yeah, Poppy or Pitch Perfect or whatever.
And so yeah, I even got some, not pushback, but my friends were questioning the decision.
Like, I sent a filmmaker friend the script, and I was like, do you think this is crazy for me to do?
I was mostly thinking about, hey, here's the story.
Here's the very limited budget and time frame that we have.
And I would be jumping on to this movie.
I'd be pitching myself to direct this movie.
And it starts in six weeks.
So do you think that's just a terrible idea and I'm just setting myself up for failure?
And he was like, well, it's a lot.
But mostly he was like, I confess, I've been hoping you would direct something for a long time and I'm surprised that it's this.
Really? And he was like, I think once I got it further into the script, I could see a lot of themes around moving through the world as a woman and trying to stay safe that makes sense to me.
But he was really kind of referencing the opening scene of the movie, which.
Which is dark. Interesting because I love that scene and I fought for that scene.
Which I heard, which I'm so glad that you did.
Because I can see why many people would want to remove it.
But I think it takes away from what the story is.
Yeah, yeah. And don't get me wrong, I understood why he was going this.
Because, again, it's not really what I'm known for.
And it's not the kinds of film sets that I've been on a lot.
But I think that even my relationship to true crime really changed a few years ago.
Cuz I went through something really shocking and traumatic for me.
And I really couldn't figure out what had happened.
And I don't know if you relate to this, but I'm sure many listeners will, that you really beat yourself up and go, how did I not see?
How did I not know that that was coming?
How did I not get myself out of that situation sooner?
All the ways that we really put all that shame on ourselves.
And I told him, I was like, I know that this isn't necessarily in my professional wheelhouse.
But this unfortunately feels familiar territory to me.
And that question of whose shame is this?
How much of your shame do I have to absorb here before I'm in harm's way?
I think that question hangs over a lot of our lives more often than we realize.
And that felt central to the kind of emotional center of the story.
And I've always been kind of, I don't know, I guess maybe I would consider myself to have been a more casual consumer of true crime.
And then when some things went down in a long term relationship that I was in, I really got kind of obsessed.
And I think that there's a way in which we can kind of sublimate our own stuff by feeling like, if I can just get to the bottom of why that guy or that person did that thing, maybe I could uncover some universal human truth and I could make sure that I never found myself in a situation like that again.
And I don't know how true that is, but it really changed how I consumed true crime.
But at any rate, the subject matter of the movie is really gripping.
But I also hoped to be bringing in some of that emotional DNA to the entire movie.
Which you did a great job of.
You said it's outside of your wheelhouse, but girl it is not.
Outside of your wheelhouse, you did incredible.
Oh, that's so awesome.
And I feel like, my crime junkie brain just jumped right in, but do you actually, for those who don't know what women of the hour are, is the point of the hour.
Yes, of course, oh my gosh.
Do you want to tell them what the story is based on?
Yes, so it's funny, on other outlets, I'm sort of more vague, but I guess I don't have to be here.
No, I don't know. Obviously, we're talking about Rodney Alcala.
Welcome to the show.
So it is based on the story of Rodney Alcala, who was a serial killer in the 1970s.
And in the middle of really being able to operate without consequence for over a decade, he went on the show The Dating Game and won The Dating Game.
And so, that piece of the story, that dating game piece, is really used as a kind of framing device for the movie.
Because it's really evocative of that question of who can you trust and who's really behind the curtain?
How much can you really know about a person before you know that you're safe?
We have a crime junkie life rule that you never know anyone ever, like truly.
I mean, girl, tell me about it.
And yeah, I mean, I sort of describe it as the story of Rodney Alcala, but it is really meant to be the story of the impact that he had on the people that were unfortunate enough to come across him.
So the aim was always to really center the women's stories.
Yeah, I think you did a really amazing job of that.
And you had this scene, I was crawling out of my skin, the scene where you're actually on the date with him.
And you're walking into the car, and it's the whole number scene, where he's like, tell me your number again, why can't you remember?
And I was just, my husband didn't quite get why I was freaking out so much.
That's so interesting.
He and I talk about this all the time.
And the way you were talking about it earlier, I'm like, Eric, he's this like, six foot six dude.
And I'm like, you move in the world a way that like, I cannot.
And you cannot, I appreciate that you empathize with being a woman, but you have no idea what it feels like that when I'm going on a walk, I'm not enjoying the walk because I'm constantly looking here and looking there and that car passed me twice and here's the license plate number.
And it's completely different.
But the way that I thought you did so well in capturing just the uncomfortable position, I think nearly every woman has probably been in at some point.
Yeah. Where it's like, I don't feel safe.
I don't feel good. Like, why can't, but you also don't feel comfortable saying that.
Yes. And you're not totally sure if you're making it up.
Like, Oh, maybe I'm just being paranoid.
And the way that we kind of second guess ourselves and try to just sort of like be pleasing and I'll just get myself out of this situation.
And God, that's so interesting because there are several moments in the movie that while we were shooting, one of the men on set would sort of say like, Hey, should we do another take of that?
Like, I don't know that it's super clear, like, what's happening in this scene.
And I would sort of be like, well, women are going to know what's happening in this scene.
They're going to get it.
They don't feel it in such a visceral way.
The lesson probably isn't for them.
Don't be the creepy man, that's your own lesson.
And it feels like there's this kind of secret language of women.
And part of that is it's a fucking secret.
So. Wait, am I allowed to curse?
Oh, yeah, for sure.
It's serious, right?
It's like, fuck, I don't know.
So, you know, sometimes that means that maybe it won't be a thousand percent clear to some men, like, what the dynamics are at play.
But I think it's very, very clear to women.
But I think that's like the beautiful part about you having stepped in the role as director is having a woman be the lens through this story and telling it from your perspective and being able to like hone in on those nuances that I don't know that someone else would have captured.
And I just thought you did it in like such a truly incredible way.
Oh, my gosh, that's that's the nicest thing.
How did so how did you decide that you wanted to direct something because this is your first?
Yeah. I mean, you came out with a banger, but I mean, I always feel a little embarrassed saying this, but I think I had told myself, I mean, certainly I told everyone around me and I had told myself I just wasn't interested in directing because I think that it's vulnerable to want something and, you
know, you might not get it or you might get it and you might fail.
And so I just was constantly telling myself, like, oh, I don't know.
Got directors are crazy.
I'm not doing that.
And I really found myself getting kind of obsessed with this script and maybe getting a little controlling, you know, because I was attached as an actor for about two years and I was just sort of like, okay, let me know when the movie goes.
Oh, God, that's so common.
Yeah. Like you just sort of like podcast yourself to things and you're like, well, let me know if it comes together.
And and then the other thing that happens is occasionally something that's been moving really, really slow for a long time will out of nowhere very quickly be coming together at lightning speed and basically going, OK, well, we got the money together and we have a window that we could shoot it in.
And if we don't if we miss that window, we might it might fall apart again.
And at that point, we didn't have a director.
And so we kind of scrambled and we were trying to find someone and we certainly weren't looking at first time directors.
It was like, well, we have three dollars and a roll of duct tape and it needs to happen right now.
So we were really mostly trying to find like pretty experienced people.
And I guess I oh, God, I feel weird saying this, but I think that I also started to feel like, wait, I'm sorry.
I've been thinking about this movie for two years and someone's going to come on and like tell me what the movie is.
And I'm going to be like, you just got here.
And there were also certain details from the true story that felt really important to me.
And I had always thought, like, well, if it were my movie, this is how I would do it, but it's not my movie.
That's OK. And very quickly, I got to do like a new draft with the screenwriter and make some changes.
And I just had a hard conversation being like, I want it.
Oh, it was terrifying.
Oh, my God. I mean, I think like even in in the pitch that I did, I kept saying like, if you guys don't think I'm the right person, that's so fine.
It's totally fine. I just want to do what's best for the movie.
It's OK. Like, if you don't think I'm ready, please tell me.
What people think a girl boss is, is like just coming in and owning the room and being a girl boss, is really that.
It's just being like, listen, I'm like, listen, here's the deal.
Here's like what I bring to the table.
I was even going like, here's what I think I bring to the table.
Here are the areas of deficit that I have.
Like, I want to be honest.
Like, why project false confidence?
Because then I was like, well, also, if you hire me, it means like you have to support me because I was honest.
You know, I love it.
Yeah. So how did how did the story find you originally?
Well, OK, so it originally found me because it was the script just got sent to me.
And I had that moment that maybe a lot of the listeners have where you go, oh, right.
This guy, he was, yeah, he was a serial killer and he went on the dating game.
And that's like mostly what you remember or what you know about it.
And, you know, obviously, that is a fascinating true crime story.
So I was interested from the get go.
And then when I read the screenplay, it was just it was it was really beautiful.
I know that's us feels like a strange thing to say, but there was so much beauty in the world of these women and you really fell in love with them in a very limited window, really.
You know, I mean, some of the actresses in the film, they have a very limited window of screen time to make you fall in love with them and be absolutely invested in what is going to happen to them.
And I'm just blown away by the writing and by the actresses in the film because you are so desperate for each one of them to come out of it on the other side.
And, you know, the movie is like chilling, but it's it's heartbreaking, too.
There's one scene in particular when you talk about them having such a short time to make an impact where this girl is unpacking her new apartment.
And I remember just feeling so much like, God, I remember being like, you know, in my very first place and you're in a new city and you feel like such a big kid with your whole life in front of you.
And I remember that just being like the emotion as I was watching that and being like, oh, God.
So even in like you just get like a brief moment with each of those women.
And it was just done so well.
Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure that the listeners are very, very into as they should be like the details and accuracy, factual accuracy.
And there are so many details in the movie that are lifted straight from the true story.
But, you know, just the way you're talking even about that scene with the apartment, you know, it just reminds me that part of the objective was also to give each woman that we know, meet like quite a different personality and quite a different kind of entry point to how they meet this man, how they interact with this man.
Because again, like emotionally, it felt important to kind of establish it wouldn't matter what your personality is and how you meet a person or how careful you are or how sweet you are or how tough you try to seem.
Like none of that guarantees your protection from someone if they're determined to harm you.
Yeah. And even though there, I think there are really, really interesting things in the movie around like the ways that some of these women managed to survive.
It also feels like an exercise in at least putting the shame where it belongs, which is in the hands of a person who's harmful and never.
I remember actually at one point.
Oh my God, I forgot about this.
This is maybe a little spoilery, but but also we already know the story that, you know, I play the The Bachelorette who's on the dating game.
And so I survive. And I remember at one point, one of the producers asking me if my character should have like some kind of really clever plan that got her out of danger.
And I was like, you know, in most movies, I would say, sure, blind luck isn't a great way for your heroine to kind of survive a situation, but it would also feel like a disservice to all the really brilliant women who didn't survive.
You know, sometimes it is just blind luck.
Well, and the truth of it is he did go for so long and he was successful at taking lives of so many different women that to say, oh, like this person just needed to outsmart him.
Yeah. It's like it's the one person in the parking lot who just like scares him away.
And you're like, and you just think you're lucky stars like why me and not the other person completely completely wild.
So you said that your true crime fascination you had been into it before, but always like like for me, I always say like crime junkies are born, not made like I since I was little like when did it start for you?
And they would have those books about like, like, like, like natural disasters or the Titanic or something.
Like there is just something about the the grim and the macabre that is that is always kind of called to me.
And so, yeah, that's always sort of been there lurking and then it, you know, ended up being something else for me.
You wrote in your book about you being in New York for the first time, which, like, when you were like a kid and I'm like, you were like, towing the line.
You were about to be your own true crime stories like running around the city of New York.
You were like, what, 10?
I know. I know. I know.
I know. I know. I know.
I know. Like my. Yeah, my parents because I I I was a stubborn little child and I was like, I want to be an actress and I want to audition for Broadway shows.
And, you know, they worked full time jobs.
And so they drove me to New York for a couple auditions.
And then we're like, girl, if you really want to do this, like this is you need to figure it out.
So my brother and I, he was like two years older than me.
He he and I would go down on like a Greyhound bus and like just audition for stuff in in New York City, which, yeah, I don't know.
There is like a an overconfidence and a trust there that I think also comes from growing up in a place where I grew up in Maine and, you know, no one locked their doors at night when I moved to L .A.
God, I really am like a walking true crime.
This is awful. No, when I moved to L .A., my roommates were constantly having to remind me to lock the door.
I just wouldn't lock the door.
Just what? Yeah, just wide open.
Because also in Maine, if you lock your car door at night, it'll freeze over.
So we don't like anything, girl.
I mean, I lived in like Indiana and it's not wild out there, but like I know that's crazy.
I think about that all the time when you're like to go back to what we were just talking about, like, I remember I went to Vegas when I was like 22.
And like me and my roommate just like we like didn't want to pay for a cab.
So we like caught a ride with a guy who had a hook for a hand.
And I'm like, you're not just true.
You're like a creepy ghost story.
That's a classic campfire ghost story.
But yeah, I'm like walking down alleys and it's like the stuff that it truly is luck.
Sometimes it's truly just luck that saves you.
It's a miracle. We're both here today.
No, completely. That's absolutely right.
So how did you. Were there certain things that you pulled from your own life, like situations you've been in where you felt like that or like how did you even begin to prepare for this character?
Yeah, so I mean, there are things in the movie that are like there's a couple little Easter eggs, but, you know, for example, my character, there's that scene in the opening when we first meet my character where I'm having like a very bad audition.
And the casting directors are.
Yeah, they're there.
And they were so funny.
They were so wonderful in the day.
And while we were shooting it, I was like, hey, will you guys do this?
Like, we just save these couple lines with me.
I'm probably going to cut it.
But I don't know. It might be interesting.
Where they ask me if I'm willing to do nudity.
And this guy makes a very, like very specific and weird remark about my body.
And that happened to me verbatim when I was 19.
Yes, verbatim in an audition.
Yeah. Crazy. Absolutely crazy.
So there's also I want the version on Netflix where like it pops up.
You're like actually happened.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God.
Yeah. No, but like there's also a degree to which I really had fun making a period piece and like, you know, playing up the kind of 70s of it all.
But also, like some of this stuff happened not that long ago, you know, like some of the little like juicy little tidbits where you think, well, no one would say that.
Now. And I know, you know, 19 was not recent for me.
But yeah, it was not like relegated to the 70s.
Like it was five minutes ago.
Holy crap. Yeah. There's a there's also like this is dumb.
But there's a sign that's on the door when I'm about to go out on stage that says like, check your lipstick.
And that's like that backstage at talk shows.
That stuff of like last chance to check your makeup that's like written under the mirror.
That's right before you go out into like live TV.
So yeah, just like a bunch of little Easter eggs like that.
I like how do people know that though?
Like if they don't know the bits like this is all the insider baseball I want to know.
I guess like, you know, you mostly get away with it by not saying it.
But now I'm saying it on a big podcast.
So I'm obsessed. What are you gonna do?
What are you gonna do?
I'm obsessed. Stay mad.
So how do you when you think about being insane?
something like this for was it really six weeks like yeah well yeah I was like thinking about the character for two years right but then like was oh god I'm responsible for all of it for like six weeks and then and then you have about six weeks of like hard prep so you're like finding the locations
and and actually like really mapping out the movie and then we filmed for 24 days which is not enough time oh my god you did that whole thing in 24 days yeah yeah yes that's intense it was a lot it was a lot it makes me hot just thinking about like how much we were running around is that normal no no oh
my god no I mean it's normal for like teeny movies that take place in one location but yeah it was a lot but I also I think I am like maybe a little bit of an I would I was like oh my favorite animal is me when I'm when the schedule is slightly behind where like the way that like I get a weird rush
of dopamine where I'm like we're gonna we're gonna finish this day we're gonna get every shot that we need on this day god damn it so it's like very exciting how did you think about coming off that and like but in more specifically like even out of this space like that you're kind of living in like
a dark world for a while yeah do you take a break from it do you have like a true crime detox or you are you ready to like jump back into the next true crime project God I I think that you know like when I would go home for the day I would probably just put something like mindless on on YouTube like
something like upbeat or something what's your mindless what is your guilty pleasure this is very silly but I think that at the time that we were filming the movie I didn't know of the try guys but when we were filming the movie the try guys had like a infidelity scandal thing they're like youtubers
I was like what's the try guys I don't know that was my point and so I was like wait what is this and I like watched a couple videos and I was like I don't get it but then but then I started watching it and it was like okay this is fine this is just like guys being silly and I don't know one of them
like cheated on their wife so fuck that guy but you know I don't know whatever so I would just like put that on his background noise to fall asleep to the try guys I'm putting you to sleep I know I know it's like the most random rabbit hole so just be like fine this because I can't even think about like
finding what oh what's my night time no you know comfort show I was like this this is it I know a lot of people they say it is like a comfort thing to watch the same thing over and over again it drives me now I really I can't watch the same thing over not even like the office you don't have like a show
like that that you're like yeah yeah I'll just throw it on oh I mean I'm broken I don't I don't know like everyone's like yeah I've just got my I don't wait do you watch any movies like more than once cuz rebel Wilson has this thing she has never seen a movie more than once I never not once and she
says her favorite movie is a League of their own and she has seen it twice in her life that's her favorite movie that's crazy I think I've seen maybe some movies well my daughter's movies aside I've seen movies I like like tops two times I cannot rewind like I know what's gonna happen there's no someone
needs to study your brain and rebel Wilson's brain and figure out what's happening there cuz honestly I kind of wish I was more like that like I wish I was more like yeah I'd want to watch something new something new and then there's just like a laziness thing where you're like oh whatever I've heard
it's like a comfort thing like you would know what to expect like in a world where everything's crazy and you got a zillion things coming at you like the comfort of like knowing exactly what's coming next I guess that's probably it I don't know for me it might just be anything down the middle laziness
cuz I'm like I just can't think of anything else to watch they'll just rewatch 30 Rock fine okay that's fair I I'm like very into I always said I was not a reality TV person but I've liked doing the love is blind thing right now so good are you watching this season okay I just started it oh my god I'm
like I think I'm I'm still I got to like the first reveal though like Taylor and what's his face I don't know whatever I was texting Kate non -stop I was like I felt like I was like live tweeting love is blind but only to her totally you gotta have that friend though to be like I'm gonna watch this thing
and you have to watch this thing we can text about it oh I love it so do you think you'll do another true crime I would I mean I would be really really open to it I think that it's really fertile ground psychologically so I don't know well as I'm saying it I'm also like I've been known as like musical
Sally for the last decade so it certainly wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for me to be like oh no oh no I'm pigeonholed as like the murder girl that would be fine with me I don't I think at this point I think this whole thing you like prove that you can do whatever you want which is like the best
place to be I wouldn't mind I mean I um I really found it rewarding to to dig in to the case you know I was really really fortunate to have Matt Murphy who was the prosecutor in Rodney's 2010 retrial as a resource he was so so generous like he was not we did not have the money to pay him so he was not getting
paid but he really made himself available and and not just as a kind of factual resource which he often was but there were times where just speaking to him was so emotionally grounding because again he's someone who really obviously prioritizes victims first and you know even just speaking to him would kind
of like sometimes like really recenter me on what was important about telling the story and and Matt introduced me to detective well now the honorable Craig Robison but at the time detective Craig Robison who I mean was the guy who cared enough about what was happening to actually take it seriously
because as I'm sure you know as I know you know really the story of Ronnie Alcala is a story of law enforcement negligence and incompetence and it makes my body temperature go up every time I even think about it like it like really really makes me so upset and I think even speaking to Craig Robison and Matt
Murphy it was kind of illuminating for me because I mean you think about okay a serial killer who's been operating for over a decade this young detective comes on the scene and kind of saves the day and the prosecutor that keeps him behind bars and connects all the dots and you know realizes that he's
a serial murderer it's kind of like a ready -made Hollywood story but we don't really get into that in the movie because it would also feel really emotionally dishonest yeah because when I walk away from you know months of research about this case the feeling that I'm left with is heartbreak and rage
yeah really rage so they got to be the heroes they were the heroes and they were and that matters but because so many people yes failed before them that's right hope and they're just as angry about that as anybody and that's where like I'll always say I mean there's the really good ones can recognize
and acknowledge when there are bad ones I I even had a moment where I was like oh no like Matt has really been so helpful to me and I am not sure that he knows that like the movie is not pro law enforcement and I was like oh my god oh my god is that gonna like bother him or hurt his feelings or is he
gonna be angry and then I mean he just put out a book and actually one of the chapters is about Rodney and yeah and he's actually going off more about law enforcement than I am in the movie so yeah we can appreciate that for sure I love it and you said Matt didn't make any money but like I was surprised
to learn you didn't make any money on this either oh yeah yeah I mean you know I think that you know we're both sort of steeped in some really valid ethical questions around true crime and I believe me this was never a money -making venture for me because you know all the resources went to actually just
making the movie but it wasn't until the Toronto Film Festival is where the the movie premiered and it's this big film festival for someone to buy movies and that is you know eventually Netflix bought the movie but it wasn't until like the week before TIFF that I thought oh oh the movies gonna make
money like I was just so like let me know when the movie happens to like oh god I'm responsible for this and then I was just making the movie making the movie and we just barely made the deadline to get into TIFF and then it was like oh oh there's like money gonna be exchanging hands and yeah like I
sort of asked myself the question of like do you feel gross about this and I did and so yeah so I'm not making money off of the the movie the the money is going to or has gone to RAINN and to the National Center for Victims of Violent Crime which was a charity that Matt Murphy recommended to me so we've
done work with both of them they're like both incredible organizations yeah I was gonna ask you like how you got connected with them but that's perfect yeah yeah so yeah I think that there it's still a complicated area but that it is that felt like certainly like the least to do that I should do well
I like I it's a huge it's a huge thing to do and it's like it's a it's a weird place to navigate and like I mean as someone who's like still trying to figure it out I think that I think these stories have to be told and I think that there's probably a better way than it's been done in the past right
and it's like how how do we how do we do right by the people who are in them how do we it's there's a lot of a lot of heavy questions that I don't know it's not black and white and ethics is never black and white it's a little gray and it's yeah and you know again like when I've shown the movie to friends
there are immediately like a handful of questions that they want to know like wait wait wait did that really happen did that really happen like you know one of the ones that comes up a lot is like wait was he really working at the Los Angeles Times in like and you're like yep with his real name yo with his real
name like he'd been in jail for horrible crimes already at that point and they you know constantly let him out freely based on vibes by the way because which words were just like yeah I don't know he seems chill I think he's reformed and then yeah he like you know he changed his name in New York for a while
but then he like got a job at the Los Angeles Times under his real name so yeah so the point being there's there are certain things that are like oh my god did that actually happen and then yeah there's a degree to which I you know the names of a lot of the sort of players in the in the movie are changed
as kind of a nod to the idea that like I couldn't possibly capture the essence of a real person if I had a hundred years let alone we're a 90 -minute movie and you know as always the idea was mostly to be trying to reach a kind of larger emotional truth about the danger that we walk around with and all
the ways we try to stay safe and there are things in the movie that frankly feel like they could save a life you know I was watching that other Netflix show worst ex ever and I was literally like oh my god no do what Monique did like please please and she survived she's okay the lady I was yelling at the TV
as though I could like crawl through the screen and back through time oh my god it's just oh it's so stressful but I think there are like these tidbits that we get from these stories that remain in our subconscious and and can aid us in our most challenging moments I think it's you know you were talked
about earlier trying to like understand and can I you know can I gather all these tools to protect myself and I've always viewed it as I think I read it in like Tina Fey's book she was talking about if I can be so hyper vigilant like surely statistically just won't happen to me like if I'm always on the way
and I think that's a little bit of like the way that I have viewed it the way I know a lot of our listeners view it is these stories often happen to us and so if we can you know it's not it's not the shame and it's not them but it's like unfortunately I live in this world where I have to you know hold
the keys a certain way and check in my backseat and look here and do all the things and if I can pick up all the tips and tricks maybe I'm like this much yes like less like yeah I'll just I'll take that 2 % even if it's only 2 % because the hyper -vigilant thing is fascinating because again I think the case
that really captured me when I was coming out of this really abusive situation was the Chris Watts case do you gotta be started on family annihilators I I'm about to like I it's like my life dream to like just fund a study at some university because I cannot wrap my head and I feel like not nearly enough
has been done to understand like how someone goes and it's not zero to 60 it's not but it feels like it I mean yeah unfortunately I could sit here and talk about Chris boss all day but we'll just very briefly like the more that I try every transcript I read every recording every text message that he
ever sent anybody that's ever been made available to the public I just it's frustrating because I mean obviously it's more than frustrating it's enraging but he's really sucked into that one I go I it became it became crazy I forgot that I actually like forgot that I went from being kind of a casual
true crime person to like obsessed and I was reading an old journal and I mean old it this was again right after I left my abusive relationship it like coincided with when I learned about the Chris Watts case and I was even aware at the time because I wrote it down like oh I think I'm sublimating my
own trauma and just trying to figure out what happened in Chris Watts mind so that I can understand what the fuck happened here because how did you go from the most loving the most wonderful and to so abusive making me feel crazy all these things overnight like what happened and one of the endless frustrating
things about the Chris Watts case is I I don't think he would be able to give you insight if you put him in therapy for the next 50 years like I just he is so asleep to himself and and his family suffer the consequences of that yeah I think there are certain people who just will put themselves above
everyone mm -hmm but here's the rub in my opinion yeah I think that a guy like Chris Watts and a guy like my ex I think they genuinely experience themselves to be the victims like I don't think that they're like ah screw it I'm gonna kill my family I don't care I think that they're in such a state of like
this kind of toddler esque terror that they're just like no I just I'm in a bad situation and I don't want to feel bad this feels so bad that I'm allowed to do whatever I have to do because this feeling is so bad and I'm such a victim here and like I'm like being caught in an affair makes you feel so bad
you and I let your family like I oh my god do you think it's the idea of being caught or that they're in the way of what he thinks is happiness I know that there's different theory believe me I know there's everything I believe you've been down the road I I don't know my theory is that it was less like
no you're standing in the way of what I want and so I'm gonna wipe you off the face of the earth it was more like I need to be seen as a good guy and a guy who leaves his family is not a good guy but a guy who whose family disappears is still a good guy and I can't be the guy that had an affair on my
pregnant wife that is so intolerable to me that again everything that is his his shame around having an affair which by the way that is an asshole move but like so what do you can get like so so so your white so Shanann's friends think you're a dick so what like she would have gone on to live a beautiful
life it's oh my god your daughters and it's all just like oh I don't want to deal with the shame of people knowing that I'm not a good guy so I'm enacting that shame on my family is it do you think it's a little bit of when you care more about what the world thinks of you than what you think of yourself
probably I mean because you I can't imagine like I can't imagine having to live with that even if everyone thought I was amazing I couldn't live with myself but he would rather live with live with the lie I mean I I I think it's just like well I did I think from somebody like that from many people who've
committed terrible crimes I think it's possible that their perspective is I would have been such a victim and almost like I did what I had to do to quote survive but to them someone thinking that you're kind of a dick who cheated on his wife is akin to annihilation and I mean I think that sort of plays
out in the movie like Rodney was diagnosed with a number of kind of contradictory disorders over the years by different doctors again I can't know him and I'm not really fucking interested but I don't know gun to my head I'd say just psychopathy and sexual sadism and that's really just an accident right
and statistically we're not that likely to meet an honest -to -god psychopath we are incredibly likely to meet people who are emotionally incapable of dealing with their own pain and their own shame and having them enacted on us and there's some stuff in the movie that feels more like that and maybe that's
not a perfectly accurate representation of his psychology again there's part of me that's like I couldn't care to ask whatever dude you're pathetic you're rotting in hell fine but that moment of going oh you feel like a victim right now and I now flying exactly stop it I feel very scared and so I know
that I need to absorb all this shame for you so that I can actually survive the situation and I think that that's a situation that women know really well and probably know it on the day -to -day in much much smaller ways where it's just like you don't ruin my day you could ruin my month like you know
there's a whole storyline with my character and her neighbor and you know he kind of pressures me into sex and it sucks and it's a really weird piece of the story and yes of course for women there is that question of like are you gonna physically harm me but there's also the question of like are you
gonna psychologically torture me every time I step out my front door cuz you're my neighbor and like I don't know maybe it's easier for me to just go okay I guess we'll have sex and neither version is good it's all awful but like these are the choices that we're faced with yeah what's the one you can live
with and live with on a daily basis and if I stand up in a meeting and say that I think Brian's idea isn't that great what are the consequences gonna be for me around the office and like making those bargains every day is is also part of the fabric of the movie how did I don't know and whatever you
are not comfortable talking about how did you get out of your relationship because I think that's such a it always is I like I think about the takeaways of the movie but I think you're somebody that people would look at and be like she's fucking Hannah Kendrick like but you got out of a situation and what did
it take for you I wish I had a simple answer I know I think that those stories are always like really messy and complicated and yeah there were kind of steps along the way but certainly there was a there was a day that we were having a conversation and you know it felt like I was always just trying
to kind of you know while walking on eggshells trying to sort of go like you not see what you're doing you know like I just thought like surely he's reason a surely he can be reasonable and and he can see what's happening you know which wasn't gonna happen but you know I was obviously holding on to
some hope for a while but there was a day that I really I almost did a kind of version of the end sequence of the movie where I just stopped pushing back and and it was almost like I went into I know that you've been there that everyone listening has been there where it's like you almost go okay at this point
I think I just need to go into like information gathering mode I'm actually not going to push back at all I'm just gonna kind of agree with everything he's saying with his whole worldview with all of it just so that he'll keep talking and I can almost like get myself the information that I'm subconsciously
avoiding seeing and like just listening to him sort of describe where his like worldview was coming from or like his mindset was like oh no like it was it was just kind of so much more illuminating than any you know argument that we'd had because it really was like okay I'm creating a really really
safe space for you and you're talking crazy friend so yeah that's when I like we went into couples therapy the next session and I was like I think we need to cut contact for a while and a while was many months but but you know then it you know it was messy it's complicated whatever and then yeah it
was done and I put his stuff in storage and and that was that do you still have a weird storage lock or somewhere no no no I actually I would have liked to burn it down if you know it's funny there's so many times where I'm like I should have oh but then I'm like that would have been a gift to him oh
yeah he would've I don't even know who we're talking about but he would've been well I love and I thank you for ending on that story because I do I think it's so important when talking about the stories talking about the shame all of it like it feels I think people are waiting for like these big moments
or like the actual like physical abuse or all these big things when it's like it's in their daily life and it and if relationships aren't making you better and making you happy like that's abuse in and of itself so thank you I just think that was really beautiful and I like haven't paid attention to
my notes I think we're out of time I'm on your schedule so I don't know do you I think you're the one on like this this giant press tour for this amazing movie that's coming out do you want to tell everyone where they can watch it when they can watch it so it's on Netflix starting October 18th so I
think that's probably already happening depending on when this yes and yeah it's woman of the hour and it's on your it's on your Netflix right now you guys run don't walk it is truly amazing start to finish you guys are gonna love it for the first five minutes you've made it through the worst of it
if you these are crime junkies they're like no disclaimer needed you guys this is made for you you're gonna love it enjoy it thank you so much this is so fantastic oh you're so welcome all right well thanks again to Sirius XM for letting us hang out in their studio I feel like a real grown -up big kid
podcaster now and don't forget to follow the show add it to your library you can also follow crime junky and we're gonna have brand -new episodes the last Friday of every month of CJAF but if you can't wait until then you can hear crime junky radio on the Sirius XM app for your 24 -7 true crime fix you
can follow me Ashley flowers on Instagram and Ashley flowers crime junkie on tik -tok and make sure you also follow crime junkie at crime junkie podcast I'll see you next month I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation half as much as I did Anna was truly you guys I they say never meet like your heroes
at the people you love she is a pleasure she's everything you think she would be in person I always love knowing that she's truly a treasure so make sure you follow her go watch the movie and please please please go check out the episode serial killer Rodney Alcala if you want to hear the crime junkie
version of that story it's linked right in the show notes
