Discussion keeps the world's turning.
This is Roundtable.
Hello everybody, welcome to Roundtable.
Coming to you live from Beijing, I'm her young, good to have you join us on a day's show.
Saving a historic building is no small feat, but preserving a whole ancient village is
an even greater endeavor.
As time races on, how can we organically preserve these precious parts of our history,
culture and traditional way of life?
Why is it so crucial to keep these ancient villages intact?
And what can we learn from them?
Join us for a discussion on the importance and methods of preserving our cultural legacy.
And we're on a mission of starting your week with the Motivational Kick.
Our Motivational Monday offerings will get you ready to tackle the week.
For today's program, I'm joined by Li Yi and Brandon Yates in the studio, first on
a day's show.
And his traditional village preservation project has made significant strides since its inception
in 2012, protecting over 8,000 villages and 556,000 traditional buildings from artist
clusters to ecotourism.
These villages are finding innovative ways to thrive in the 21st century.
So give us a recap first since 2020, actually 2012.
How has this big traditional village preservation project turned out, Li Yi?
Sure.
I think before we start the discussion, really, we need to identify what is exactly those
traditional village.
And according to some official definition here in China, it really refers to villages that
possess both tangible and intangible cultural heritage.
And also those have very significant historical, cultural, scientific, artistic, social and
economic values.
So this is the basic definition.
And here in China, like you said, we do have a very specific policy about the protection
and development of those traditional villages, three departments, including China's Ministry
of Housing and Urban Rule Development, published this guidelines of strengthening the
preservation and development of traditional villages on December, in December 2012 or 2012.
And one highlight of this policy is really it's about protection and development, meaning
that we are not only, you know, want those villages to stay the way it is, but also to
sustain and prosper.
So this guideline really stressed the importance of why we're doing this because those traditional
villages really serve as a bound that maintain the cultural identity of local people and also
preserve the diversity of ethnic cultures here in China.
And also, you know, those traditional villages have a lot of tangible and intangible cultural
heritage.
So it's really, you know, some people are calling it as the museum of folk culture and also
the living fossil of the rural history.
So according to this guidelines, we need to, you know, contact relevant efforts that are
needed.
So for example, to improve the whole investigation process of traditional villages, for example,
we need to, you know, contact different field research in a continuous way.
And also we need to establish registers of traditional village at both the national
and local level and also creating certain management systems and offering technical support.
And so far, you know, since 2012, China really has accomplished the survey and identification
of six batches of traditional villages and data from the Ministry of Housing and Urban
Rural Development shows that China has 8,155 traditional villages and their preservation
and we have protecting over 500,000 traditional buildings and heritage, nearly 6,000 provincial
level and above intangible cultural heritage.
So a total of over 5,000 villages have really compared their own village chronicles and
also relevant efforts have been conducted in at different levels, I believe, across the
whole country.
So that's the overall, I believe we call traditional village protection and preservation project
as we call it.
12 years, all this.
Yes.
Yeah, and obviously, you know, globally China has this tag of being, you know, one of the
historical hotbeds in terms of, you know, historical sites and traditions and values from
across the world.
And I think so many traditional Chinese elements have actually had a great influence on
obviously Chinese day to day life, but also on various other countries around the world.
So I think obviously protecting certain buildings and traditions and all of that is very important,
but also maintaining certain elements that date back many years, but are still, you know,
still very much in use today and ensuring that that can continue to prosper, I think
is also very important.
I mean, we have similar things in South Africa where, you know, the protection of languages
and cultures and, you know, historical sites and even, you know, it even goes back to
the conservation of animals that are dying out and all of that sort of thing that's linked
to our heritage and our culture and our history.
So I think making efforts to protect elements of the past that are still around and also
ensuring that, you know, historical day to day ongoing that still exists.
I think all of that's very, very important.
Yes.
I think a lot of the historic villages, like Lee mentioned earlier are kind of like living
museums.
Yeah.
And the thing like there's obviously historical artifacts and that sort of thing from the
past that still exists that need to be protected, but there's also, you know, sorts of buildings
and traditions and practices that do date back thousands of years, but that are still
being implemented today.
And those also need to be equally protected as much as, you know, physical artifacts need
to be protected as well.
So they offer a tangible connection to our past and by preserving these villages, we maintain
a physical link to our ancestors, allowing us to understand and appreciate the roots
of our cultural identity.
And also this could help foster a sense of continuity and belonging, which is essential
for community cohesion and somewhat even argue national pride.
And also when you look at folks living in big cities or cities in general in the modern
urban environment, many people feel disconnected from their cultural roots and heritage and
the fast-paced technology driven style of life often leaves little room for traditional
practices and historical reflection.
So by seeking out and preserving historic villages, we can sort of reconnect with these
cultural heritage and gain a deeper understanding of our identity and history.
And also there is an educational and economic benefit aspect of things because it's easy.
Well not easy.
When we spill out these like more intangible and some might say lofty ideals, people don't
miss, it doesn't immediately click with people.
But when you say, hey, there's educational and economic benefits.
And I think especially the economic benefits that can help more people to get on board, especially
when some people are living in these old towns and villages, they might see their living
conditions and the immediate surroundings of their homes in a very different light as
opposed to, oh, you're just flying in on a flight or high speed rail, you get there
and then you parachute in.
What do you know about the local's living?
So I think it's important to sort of adapt this, sure there's the top down approach with
this preferential policies as such and policy design, which we can talk about as well as
this bottom up approach that is more responding to the local people's true needs and wants.
So how do you see these places being preserved in that 12 years we've talked about?
Well, I think we can refer to one typical example here that is the down village, which
is currently the largest oldest and most well preserved ancient village discovered in
Shanxi province.
And the village was also like, it was actually built in 1331.
So that's about 700 years ago.
And there are still over 100 ancient buildings that are really well preserved in this village.
And one key effort is ready to repair and preserve the ancient architect in the villages.
And especially when repairing those ancient buildings and residences, the whole village
really strictly follows the protection plan and repaired them with the principle of respecting
the original state of cultural relics.
In some intangible culture heritage, we're really listed as national, provincial, and
municipal intangible culture heritage catalog for protection to really attach the importance
to the whole process and also to raising their public awareness.
So that is just one example.
And also another example I just want to mention is that the Huangshan city in Unhui province
in Eastern China really impressed me because this city is really home to a list of ancient
villages.
I mean to now according to my research, some 300 traditional villages have been really
added to the list of traditional Chinese villages on the national level that also make Huangshan
ranking second among the country's perfected level cities in terms of the number.
And also when mentioning Huangshan, especially south and part of Unhui province, people
just think about the very unique Hoi style ancient architecture complex there like the
white walls and also the black tiles, very striking visual contrast and also the very high
walls that are really known as the Ma Toqiang or Hoi's head walls because the top of the
walls just look similar to the head of horses.
And they are just used to prevent the spread of fire.
So that's also the very ancient design in like thousand years ago that are still preserved
now and those villages are of course the very popular destinations there.
And whenever they visit those places, I mean those small villages and I find that there
are still a lot of local residents living in the villages and more importantly they're
getting so involved in the whole tourism sector.
For example those people who have their ancient residents, I mean the ancient buildings as
their family residents, some of them actually are turned into tourist attractions in the
whole village by the local governments.
And so as visitors you can just simply walk in and have a tour in the courtyard and those
residents themselves will just tell you the stories of all those buildings and what happened
maybe within the past thousand years in their own families and beyond that they can also
sell or you know present or show their very unique, sehandic crafts or certain skills
that can be intangible cultural heritage for the visitors.
So that's just a very typical example of how traditional villages are being turned into
tourist attraction and meantime also get local people to get involved.
Can I also please just add a footnote to that?
Sure.
Sure.
I also visited that part of the country and there's a Hong-Tuan village, very famous in
that area in Huangshan, Anhui province and I was really surprised by the arrangement
of tourism there because with this whole village it's quite big.
Sorry, don't really have the numbers with me here but the way they did it was basically
the local officials would conduct this meeting and one household would each have a representative.
So they're voting, they voted for, are you agreeing to turning this village into a tourism
hotspot while maintaining the facade, the looks of the place.
And then gradually they got everybody on board, everybody voted yes and I think that's
a pretty lengthy process for a public deliberation.
Yeah, I think something linked to that that I sort of have an issue with sometimes not necessarily
in areas where people are still living and wanting to earn a living and improve the standard
of living.
I think the conservation efforts in terms of protecting cultural heritage and cultural
sites and historical sites and that sort of thing is very important but I think that
a lot of, not just in China but around the world, I think a lot of sites have also been
rebuilt to a certain extent. I think a lot of the ancient sites have been preserved and
a lot of the artifacts and architecture and that sort of thing has been reserved but then
preserved, sorry, but then additional things have been built on top of that and that's
something that I don't necessarily like.
I would rather see a ruin that is actually still intact from hundreds or thousands of
years ago as opposed to parts of a ruin that have also been rebuilt to make it look like
more modern or more preserved.
So that's something that I sort of have an issue with but I don't have an issue with that
in areas like we've mentioned where people are having areas rebuilt where it increases
tourism but it also increases the way of life.
It betters their life and also increases their opportunities to make a living by being
based in a historical area.
Right, so I think what you mentioned is kind of like the restoration process or trend
that has evolved in this country as well because if you look at, let's say a few decades
ago, some places would completely rebuild with something new.
And with a modern style, but then in recent decades, we've seen that there's this gradual
realization that what is truly unique to your culture and your locality should be maintained
at that.
Yes, preserved, not rebuilt.
Yeah, and even if it's being restored, then it should be in cohesion to its original
style.
Yeah, but I think it's also possible to restore without adding if that makes sense.
So I think that's important for people to bear in mind as well as that, you know, something
there might be only pieces or fragments of a certain historical area or artifact left
behind and restoring that as best as possible is very important, but don't add to it or try
and change it in some way.
That's what I think people need to be very aware of.
I think maybe it's really up to the local people.
I mean, what do they think about what kind of life they want live?
Because when we talk about this, especially a lot of traditional, I mean, ancient villages,
usually, as outsiders, we might just appreciate the aesthetic value of those very ancient
architecture, buildings, however, maybe for local people, some of the design or some of
those buildings are not really, you know, a product, yes, usable.
They might just need some sort of restoration effort.
But I mean, what you said is really about to preserve the very authentic cultural value
or the way of life of people there.
Yeah, but yeah, yeah.
So I've actually went to these villages in Anhui and then I did, okay, so basically you
need to get everybody on board because this is a democratic process, which the locals
will should be honored.
That's one thing.
And then also they agreed upon that to go into this village, you will need to pay for
entry fees.
So then for all of the households in this village, they will get a portion of that annual
entrance fee.
That's an amount that is a revenue they can enjoy.
And also some people decided not to live in that village anymore and some still live
there and conduct tours around or whatnot.
And then what I found to be really interesting, again, this just shows that outsiders know
nothing.
Or actually, or actually, it's just really a complicated issue that I don't think one
can come in in ignorance and I think in a way it's arrogance to point fingers to say
this or that.
But anyway, when I went there, I was a little bit surprised by how damp, cold and stuffy
those traditional way courthouses could be.
And this is for mostly I think average people, they're not the like the elaborate, labyrinth
of courthards that you see of some super wealthy old family that we have a lot in Chinese
history as well.
So then when you step in there, it's actually really dark and damp.
And also I guess I'm a pretty tall woman.
And back then I would be a giant, I suppose, if I enter.
Oh, and so is Brandon.
When I enter.
I'm a giant in my own apartment when I went into one of these courthards and I was like,
gosh, my head is going to hit the ceiling.
So you see that these houses of hundreds of years, they catered towards the knees of
people back then.
But now I can totally understand that why some of the locals would want the house to be
at least refurbished inside.
That's what I'm saying.
So I think that sort of thing is important where people are still living and taking part
in day to day life and are economically benefiting.
But for example, in areas or with artifacts where it's not directly impacting people's
lives, I think for that preservation is more important than restoration.
But then in areas like you've both mentioned where people are still living and haven't
left the area and are actually benefiting from the tourism in that area, then I think
their restoration is equally important to preservation.
Yeah.
And also I think you mentioned Honson, right?
And also there's another one on village in Hwangshan that is CD.
That's a smaller scale compared to Honson.
And basically you can just take one hour or two hour walk so that you can just visit
the whole village.
So that's how small it is.
And when you, you know, when I was there, I was really quite impressed by the local waterways
in the whole village.
So that was actually built, say, a thousand years ago and used to be the major project to
govern rent or where you offer water supply for the local residents.
And what really amazes me is that local residents, they're still using those waterways,
say maybe washing vegetables in the river.
And as tour guys, they will just introduce, of course, the design, I mean, the design logic
of those waterways.
And meantime, also tell us you have to respect the way of people, local people living to
today.
So they're still using those infrastructure.
And I think as outsiders, that's also very important part of the whole visiting experience
for me because if, say, there is no one, there's no local resident living in the village.
And I just simply appreciate those ancient buildings.
I don't really consider that a very impressive tour for me because the way of people living
in the ancient time and also to today is also very important for the whole local cultural
identity.
So that's how local people are preserving the way of life to today as a way to preserve
their cultural identity, maybe as well.
I think for me, like as a tourist, seeing both is equally exciting.
So seeing a historical artifact that's like 3000 years old and seeing that it's been
preserved is amazing, but also seeing historical sites where people are still living is also
very impressive and a great testament to how history has been preserved.
And I think at the end of the day, it's a balancing act, figuring out how best to preserve
historical areas and artifacts, but also being able to restore it to a point where it
can still be used and utilized by locals and also being appreciated by outsiders that
are able to come in and view what was done in the past and how that is still being preserved
today.
And that is a really delicate balance and let's face it, not a lot of places get it right.
So especially when we're talking about let's say a whole ancient villages and you're
gonna, you're bound to have people who've embraced modern way of life.
That is also, you know, going to big cities and find work there and they don't live there
anymore.
But also, to me, I mean, this is from a very possibly a superficial level of understanding,
but if you don't have the people living there, then isn't it kind of like the lifeblood
of tradition is gone, but also people are changing too.
So it's a really interesting sort of mixture of what people are doing to keep these places
alive.
And one kind of fashionable way to get new inhabitants into these areas is artistic or
artistic clusters or inviting artists to congregate in some of these small towns and set
up workshop there.
And when they become clusters, they exude power of contributing to the economy as well
as, you know, in different other aspects.
So how do you feel about these artistic sort of clusters that we see in these places?
I think that that's just a very creative way of attracting new people to the villages,
because when you visit those traditional villages, a fact that just mentioned is actually,
there are a lot of, you know, elderly people living who choose to stay in the village.
Well, they're, say, kids, grandkids, they just choose to, you know, go outside to the town
for works.
So how to really to preserve, you know, people ready to make a contribution to these villages.
So inviting, say, artists and say, even people who have their desire of living in rural
areas, who used to live in big cities.
And now they just decide to live in rural areas, can also choose to stay in the traditional
villages.
Actually, I just encounter one person like that in another small village in Anhui province.
And she told me a lot of local residents, of course, they choose to leave the village.
However, there are more people just to come to the village because they are attracted
by how idyllic of those villages are.
And they just start to start their business either at home stay and they have to open their
bookstore, coffee shops and so.
Yeah, there are a lot of industries going on in those villages.
And I think that's just a very, say, a very modern way of conducting commercial economies
in those villages.
When you, when we were talking about to let those villages to prosper.
Didn't you and Limeing go on a reporting trip a couple of years ago to Zingt Gugye?
Yes.
Yes.
And Jiangxi Province.
Yes.
And you saw lots of artists, authors and young artists.
They just decided to stay in a small village nearby the Stingt Gugye City, which was
making porcelain and really breathing new life to old beings and revive their vitality
to some extent and also bring in some much needed revenue for local people.
