Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez challenged the Justice Department to say if she's under investigation.
It's important to call this administration's bluff.
They rely on the illusion of power.
The Democrat wants to find her party's way back into power.
It's a special episode of Up First from NPR News.
I'm Steve Inskeep. Ocasio -Cortez wants to win back working -class voters who supported President Trump in 2024, which leads to a question.
To what extent is immigration as an issue part of your problem with working class voters?
I guess my question would be what does the word problem mean?
Also, did Trump get ahead of Democrats on working class economic issues?
And have Democrats lost ground because they're bad at governing?
Stay with us. We'll put those questions and more to Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez.
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Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez is one of the Democratic Party's biggest stars.
When she was first elected in 2018, she was very much an outsider, a social media phenomenon, often a critic of her party's programs and leaders.
Now she's seen as more of an insider, a somewhat more senior figure, still a big star.
And so we brought her here to Studio One to ask, still a big star.
And so we brought her here to Studio One Dilemma.
Democrats are out of power in Washington.
They're watching President Trump enact his agenda, and they know the president has great appeal with a large part of their traditional base, the working class, people Ocasio -Cortez would feel that she would like to represent.
Here's some of our conversation.
If you had to pick one word, what is a word that describes the state of your party right now?
I think a word to describe the state of the party is resolved.
If I had to pick one word, it would be resolved.
It's not shocked or dismayed or anything like that at this moment?
I mean, in this moment, I think we've moved through shock.
I think we've moved through dismay.
I think we've moved through the five stages of dismay.
I think we've moved through that defensiveness.
But it is, I think, a rapidly evolving situation.
Just before we talked, the situation evolved a bit more.
House Republicans approved a budget plan with hardly a vote to spare.
Ocasio -Cortez joined every Democrat in voting no.
I do believe that the Republican Party is making certain large errors right now and that they are underestimating the public.
she focused especially on one large number 880 billion dollars that's the amount of savings that republicans propose to find much of it likely from medicaid which provides health care for millions when asked this week republican house speaker mike johnson defended those cuts those are precious taxpayer
dollars and he told reporters at the capitol that the change would not affect care can you say capital that the change would not affect care can you say unequivocally that program.
Yeah, so look, let me clarify what we're talking about with Medicaid.
Medicaid is hugely problematic because it has a lot of fraud, waste, and abuse.
Everybody knows that.
We all know it intuitively.
No one in here would disagree.
In our conversation, Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez essentially did disagree, casting doubt that cutting waste could save so much.
If that cut becomes reality, it's important for people to understand not just are people going to be thrown off of Medicaid.
Not only are Medicare recipients who receive, for example, long -term care benefits from Medicaid going to be affected, but people who are not on Medicaid are likely going to see their health insurance premiums go up.
Because the more people get kicked off of Medicaid, the more uninsured people there are off of Medicaid, the more uninsured people there are in the United States, the more directly to hospitals for care.
And the cost of uninsured people is oftentimes then born in health insurance premiums as well and deductibles.
The erosion of Democratic Party support among working class voters has been pretty well documented.
It seems to cross racial and other lines.
It's real. And Democrats have talked a lot about what they maybe did wrong and the way that they spoke or the way they approached people or the way that they acted.
But I want to flip that around a little bit.
What do you think President Trump has done right that has appealed to traditional Democratic constituencies?
Some of his campaign promises.
He does a good job of pairing what I would say some of the largest giveaways.
I would say some of the largest giveaways to the one -person rule, policy promises.
No tax on tips. Exactly.
You take no tax on tips, no tax on Social Security.
These things sound great.
They also directly appeal to very specific pockets of people who tend to be working class.
And that creates a permission structure, right?
You toss a crumb to us and you give the farm to the big fish.
And I think he's very sophisticated in how he tailors those things together.
Some of those promises are things that Democrats themselves would like.
capping interest rates on credit cards, to give one example.
Has there been some discussion among Democrats that, I mean, you're almost a little envious?
He's gotten ahead of you on some of these issues.
Well, the credit card interest rate cap is my bill from 2019 with Senator Sanders.
Senator Hawley is interested in working with Senator Sanders and myself.
I've also been working with some Republican colleagues.
but it is a signal that republicans understand the trouble that they are in trying to pursue their own agenda in a very naked form they need certain fig leaves and they are sophisticated about that i think of another aspect of this though dean phillips one of your fellow democratic members uh was on television this past
week fox news as a matter of fact uh and he appeared to wish Democrats acted a little more like Trump in this way.
He wished that they would appeal to business people, to get smart people into government, to talk about efficiency.
He seemed to wish Democrats would do what Elon...
To talk about efficiency, he seemed to wish Democrats were doing it.
I would say that instead of appealing to other politicians, we should be appealing to the American people.
And if you ask the American people what they think of what Elon Musk and Doge are doing with government right now, they are vehemently opposed.
The reactions right now are not just in Democratic districts.
They are in Republican districts.
Even Republicans in my district, they're saying, I voted for Trump.
I did not vote for Elon Musk.
I did not vote for I did not vote for mass buyouts of the federal workforce.
We did not vote for the corruption of gutting NASA and then having the contracts go to SpaceX.
We did not vote for Starlink to start replacing critical—and I think that there is a very, very deep corruption at the core of this.
If Elon Musk wanted to divest himself of his businesses and enter public service with his so -called business expertise, that is his prerogative.
But so long as he maintains a vested financial interest in gutting the federal government, he is acting in his own self -interest and not those of the American people.
Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez was talking in NPR Studio One.
We met with her at a moment when Democrats are out of power and trying to find their way back in.
And we're reaching the point in our conversation where we asked about one of the most polarizing issues, immigration.
Surveys suggest that President Biden's handling of that issue cost Democrats votes, even in some of that issue cost Democrats votes, even in some immigrant community, is lawless while also defending people in the country who lack legal status.
Her answer comes right after this.
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It's a special edition of Up First.
I'm Steve Inskeep. The first time I talked with Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez was June 27th, 2018.
It was the morning after a primary election in New York when a leading House Democrat, Joe Crowley, lost his seat.
On the radio the next This morning we heard Crowley singing in tribute to the woman who defeated him.
Let's hear that moment from 2018.
Born to run, as Springsteen fans will know.
She's 28 years old.
She's a former organizer for presidential candidate Bernie Sanders.
And she is on the line after an enormous upset.
Good morning. Good morning.
Thank you for having me.
And congratulations to you.
Did you appreciate the song?
I do. I do. I thought it was an amazing and incredible gesture.
I definitely appreciate it.
But what do you think you offered the voters that Joe Crowley, with all of his experience, did not?
Well, I think for a really long time, voters in this district were yearning for a candidate that spoke directly to them and to our needs.
We're having an affordability crisis in New York City.
We have a security crisis with our current immigration system.
And they really, you know, I think I was able to to allow our community to really feel seen and heard system.
And they really, you know, I think I was able to to allow progressive, a democratic socialist.
And after her surprise win that got her into Congress, she sometimes backed efforts to unseat other leading Democrats.
She was said to be a member of the Squad, progressive women who confronted President Trump during his first term.
And in 2019, Trump lashed out at them, as described back then by our correspondent Franco Ordonez.
Yeah, I mean, he said, you know, you should go back to where you originally came from before you go speak out about how the United States government should be run.
He also claimed that the lawmakers came from countries whose, quote, whose governments are complete and total catastrophe.
But as you noted, they're all American citizens, etc., etc.
In fact, all four lawmakers had been born in the United States.
The harshness of Trump's language and actions about immigration seem to contribute to it, etc., etc.
In fact, all four lawmakers had been born.
Recent years, the issue has changed.
President Biden defeated Trump in 2020, undid some of Trump's immigration policies, and then seemed to lose the immigration debate.
Many voters saw the administration as far too lax toward migrants who lacked legal status.
Biden finally cracked down, but was replaced by Trump, who promised mass deportations.
And that led us to a question in our interview with Representative Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez.
To what extent is immigration as an issue part of your problem with working -class voters?
I mean, I guess my question would be, what does the word problem mean?
People voting for the other side and not for you.
Feeling that Democrats are not serious about the issue in ways that it concerned them.
I think that we have...
For the other side and not for you.
Feeling that Democrats are not serious about the issue in ways that it concerned.
And, as we know, Republicans weaponize that lack of progress.
They are completely uninterested in addressing undocumented people, in addressing a path to citizenship.
Well, they do want to address undocumented people by removing them.
I mean, that's what the president is attempting now.
Even then, you see what Republicans did with the Lake and Riley Act.
They authorized the complete gutting of due process.
So now you can take a DACA recipient, a Dreamer, just accuse them of a crime.
And deport them. And deport them.
However, they also understand that they don't even have the infrastructure to do that.
It's not even about creating a deportation pipeline.
They are creating a private prison camp pipeline.
So they're still creating pipelines to just increase this problem.
They are creating a private prison camp pipeline.
So they're still creating pipelines to just increase.
You say it's true. I think that a lack of a path to citizenship in the United States, the lack of addressing comprehensive immigration reform, creates a large population of undocumented people in the United States.
And that is allowed to be weaponized in many ways.
We have a large population of undocumented people in the United States.
Overwhelmingly, it is not because they crossed the southern border of the United States.
It's because they came here in a documented fashion and overstayed a visa and became undocumented.
And it is the lack of ability for us to expand paths to citizenship, modernize paths to citizenship over decades.
that. And it is the lack of ability for us to expand paths to citizenship, modernize paths to citizenship.
Arizona, which is a swing state that Democrats lost, or Colorado, which is generally a blue state, saying there's a lot of chaos.
There's a lot of lawlessness.
I don't know what to do here.
Who's looking out after me?
And I think when that is paired with divestment from the social safety net, when that is paired with lack of progress on minimum wage, when that is paired with rising costs of living, it sets the stage for a strongman to point to any marginalized group and say it's their fault, instead of looking at the gross
income inequality that we have and its actual causes in the United States.
Since the election, many Democrats have said that they need a tougher approach to inequality that we have and its actual causes in the United States.
Since the U .S. could stay, and that led to a recent dispute with Tom Holman, the President's border czar.
You held an online forum, a Know Your Rights forum, that he didn't like.
What were you doing?
What was your goal as you saw it?
I was informing all of my constituents of their constitutional protections, and in particular their constitutional protections against illegal search and seizure in the United States.
Holman was upset, I suppose, because he felt that you were giving advice to people who were here illegally.
Were you? I was giving advice to all of my constituents, yeah.
He said he was going to report you or even that he did reach out to the Department of Justice.
Have you heard from the Department of Justice?
I have not, and I intend on reaching out to the Department of Justice to inquire.
Really? Justice. Have you heard from the Department of Justice?
I have not, and I intend on reaching out to the Department of Justice to inquire.
Really? What would your question be for the Department of Justice?
Well, there is a member of the Trump administration who is threatening and seeks to open an inquiry, and are you going to do it?
Now, after our interview, Ocasio -Cortez sent a letter to the Justice Department, which she shared with NPR.
It asks Attorney General Pam Bondi if she has, quote, yielded to political pressure trying to weaponize the agency against elected officials whose speech they disagree with.
We reached out to the Justice Department and they told us they received the letter.
They say they also just received, quote, 29 violent cartel leaders who were recently extradited back to the United States.
We are more focused on the latter, the Justice Department says, without directly addressing whether AOC is under investigation or not.
Here's more of our interview with the New York Democrat.
I think it's important to know where this administration stands and if they intend on using political intimidation to silence their critics.
The interim U .S. attorney here in Washington, D .C., where we are, Ed Martin, has several times said he has reached out to specific Democratic lawmakers, such as Chuck Schumer, the Senate Democratic leader, to ask for clarification about various remarks that he regarded as threatening.
I'm interested if you or your fellow Democrats are at all feeling intimidated or silenced.
I'm not. I think it's important to call this administration's bluff.
I think that this is what authoritarians do.
I think this is what kleptocracies do.
I believe that this is what corrupt administrations do.
They rely on the illusion of power.
Do you think other Democrats are watching their words?
I think it's certainly possible, but I'm not sure.
I cannot think of or point to any individuals who have said that.
I do think that there are Democratic members of Congress who are preparing for that possibility.
How do they prepare?
I think they look to the possibility of litigation.
I think they're saying, you know, do we have the best teams possible in order to—
