This is an All Ears English podcast, episode 2488 Lady or Miss How to Refer to Strangers in English.
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When you address a female, should you say lady?
Should you say woman?
Should you say miss?
Or should you avoid these and use something else?
Find out all of this and more today.
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Hey, Aubrey, how's everything going?
I'm great, Lindsay.
How are you?
Good.
Glad to be back on All Ears English here.
Aubrey, has anyone ever called you ma'am?
Yes, I am getting to the age where it's more and more common for someone to refer to me as ma'am.
I remember the days when it was always miss, right?
Right.
I know.
When they're a little younger and they'll say miss.
But yeah, what about you?
Yeah, I'm also starting to hear it a little bit here and there, but I much prefer miss.
I much prefer miss.
I'm like, ma'am.
Oh, I guess I am old enough to be called ma'am.
Yeah, that's all right.
It happens to everyone.
I mean, we all age.
So there you go.
And this is interesting.
It can be really difficult to know how to refer to someone when you don't know their first name.
Those standalone labels to use.
And I noticed this common mistake in Cancun when I was there.
I just got back from a trip where someone would call me lady.
They're like, here you go lady, and then hand me a drink, and every time I would feel like not offended because I knew it wasn't intentional, but it felt like, Um yeah.
Yeah.
Sort of.
It's interesting.
It's hard to put words to.
I just was like, Oh yeah.
I'm just trying to think of the feeling that it's a very rough and raw way to refer to someone.
Hey lady.
Right.
It's sort of if you imagine like I don't know movies where like, there are a bunch of kids running around and maybe they like break someone's window, and then they say like Hey lady.
Right.
Like that's the vibe.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Right.
Lady is often used in the media or in everyday speech with a tone of frustration or maybe sarcasm or aggression, like hey lady, move your car.
It sounds really critical or annoyed.
So I would try to just recognize that wasn't intended, but it was still hard to not feel that or so used to that.
Yeah, this is pretty funny, but we you know how everyone that has a dog, their dog has like a voice and the dog like you'll voice what the dog's saying.
It sounds crazy, but we say that our dog says to us, lady, like, you know, like that's right.
So where's my dinner?
Yeah.
Hey, lady, where's my dinner?
That's really funny, right?
Because it is sort of that demanding, commanding tone whenever we call a woman lady.
So interesting.
So I spoke with someone who I actually took a Spanish class there at the resort that was offered.
And it was just me, which was amazing.
It could have been a huge group, but it just I was the only one that showed up.
So we were chatting for like an hour.
It was fantastic.
And I mentioned this to her.
I was like, oh, I've noticed because she called me lady a couple times during the course.
So I mentioned it to her and it was really fascinating.
She told me that in her English class she was taught that if it's a couple, they should be referred to as miss and mister.
But a woman by herself should be called lady.
So she said, we're all taught that like everyone thinks that's right.
And I said, at least in the States, it's interesting.
There's like this whole sort of underlying feeling to this word lady.
Well, I could kind of understand how maybe people were taught that because we also have the term, you know, be a lady.
Like that's actually a high society of you know, someone that has good manners and that's respected, right.
That kind of, that's an old phrase, right?
But maybe like my parents would have said that to me in the 80s.
That's a really good point though.
Cross your legs, that sort of thing.
So at one point it was.
Treat someone like a lady.
Right.
There are all these phrases where it has a positive connotation, right?
Yes.
But then when we use it as a standalone label, it really has become this loaded word that is full of criticism and is sort of commanding or demanding.
Yes.
Yeah.
Just really rash.
Right.
Yeah.
Raw for sure.
OK, Aubrey, where should we go to next then?
So the first tip here is if you're wanting to show respect and avoid offending, we wouldn't use lady or woman as a standalone label.
Right.
We wouldn't say to someone lady or woman.
Right.
They can sound blunt impersonal controlling, even demanding they just have this collocation, especially in the states.
Possibly in the uk as well, i'm not sure.
But this word woman it's interesting also has its sort of socially harsh.
It can sound rude or cold if someone says like listen woman, Oh my gosh, for sure.
Terrible.
Yeah, very harsh.
Yeah, very harsh.
And then there's one caveat that I think we should mention in case our listeners hear it on TV.
There was a form of slang, and I think this is more in the aughts, when this was popular, or the 2010s, where you might hear usually it was from a woman to their friend, another woman, close friends.
In a term of endearment, they might have said, hey lady, where do you want to get dinner tonight?
Right?
And it's a tone you hear is different from, hey lady, right?
You know?
Totally.
Very different.
I remember this.
Yes, it was a different tone.
And now we might hear, hey, girl.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Not long ago would say, hey, lady.
And this has kind of gone away.
I don't hear it much anymore.
What about you, Lindsay?
I don't hear it much anymore.
But the funny thing is that Hey Girl's been around forever.
And I almost think that Hey Lady tried to replace Hey Girl, I feel like, you know?
Right.
And Hey Girl would not be pushed aside.
It's stuck around.
And Hey Girl's still there.
So if you do hear that, everyone, in the movies or a TV show from the yachts, don't be surprised.
But we won't go any further with that one because it is gone for now until it comes back again.
Right?
Yeah, so let's go over some better options, right?
Because often we are in this situation where we don't know someone's first or last name and we need to get their attention, we need to say something.
So, for English speakers, miss or ma'am is appropriate, as we were mentioning.
Miss is more flattering because it's for a younger woman And unless someone is quite elderly, it's appropriate to call anyone Miss.
Both you and I could still be called Miss and we're sort of flattered.
Yes, I hope so.
I hope so.
I think so.
And ma'am is also more common in the South, right?
If you see like a TV show and everyone's from the Southern United States.
This is a term of respect to call someone ma'am.
And you might also hear and we can cover this in a different episode, but you might hear people extending their answer.
Like if it's a yes or no answer.
You might hear in the South more often yes ma'am, or yes sir, as opposed to just yes in the Northeast, for example.
Exactly.
Right.
If you ask someone to do something instead of saying like, yes, I will, they might say, yes, ma'am.
Just to be polite.
Or even just like I was watching Shark Tank last night and the sharks just asked the entrepreneur a question and he said yes, sir.
Right.
And I was thinking, oh, well, that's interesting because I wouldn't have said yes, sir.
I would have said yes, that's correct.
Right.
Interesting.
But that's a different episode.
Regional, right?
Yeah, we could go into that on another one.
But let's share a couple of examples, right?
So, for example, if you need to let someone know the direction they should head and you don't know their name, you could say right, this way, miss.
And then if it's a woman who's quite a bit older, you could say, right this way, ma'am.
But miss, I think, is always...
What do you think, Lindsay?
Even if someone's quite a bit older, do you think you could still say miss right this way?
Yeah.
I mean, I think maybe up to you know.
I mean I think you probably could get away with it up to retirement age.
Right.
Until, you know, someone's, you know, retired more or less 60s.
You probably could.
That makes sense to me because it would be kind of strange for someone to say to my grandmother.
Right. right?
This way, miss.
I agree.
Right.
Exactly.
Good.
Or, you know, as you said, handing a drink, here you are, ma'am.
Right.
Good.
What else?
And these really are necessary, because if you are handing someone a drink and you just say here you go or here you are, to get their attention right.
If they're looking away from you, you really do need that for politeness. that standalone label.
So miss or ma'am, and I would avoid lady or woman, right?
Yeah.
This is, wow.
It must've been quite a groundbreaking conversation.
It was really interesting because she was sort of horrified that all of these she said it so many times to so many American tourists with no idea that it has this sort of implication.
She was really grateful I told her.
I'm like, I kind of want to go and tell everyone.
But also it's tricky because I don't want them to feel like I'm criticizing their English.
Here they speak amazing English, much better than my Spanish, right?
Oh, yeah.
But no, that's what they were taught in school.
And that's all you know.
But I think the good news is.
I think if you're in that scenario and you're making a mistake like that, people know that you're not trying to say it in the harsh way of lady.
Right.
Totally.
Right.
It was like a polite tone.
And just, yeah, anyone they said that to.
And I let her know that I'm like, no one's offended.
Everyone recognizes that you just don't know.
Right.
Yeah, very cool.
But here's what's really interesting, because as we were chatting this sort of came up that oddly, ladies plural is fine.
If it's like a group of women, it's like right this way, ladies.
It's just when it's a standalone label for one person.
There's this has been added sort of culturally this negative implication to lady by itself.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Or ladies, if you could please follow me.
So totally fine when you're addressing a group of women.
OK, exactly.
Yeah.
And let's talk about for men as well, because this is tricky to Mr.
We would only use when we know the last name, right?
You might say, Mr. Johnson, come with me.
But we wouldn't say like, here you go, Mr. and hand someone a drink.
So this was another mistake that they had been taught.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, you might say it like to again, I might say this to my dog.
Hey, mister, what are you doing?
Jump, you know, lurching after these dogs when I don't give you permission, that kind of thing.
I might say to one of my kids, hey, mister, eat your food.
Yeah, but never from an adult to an adult and kind of a service restaurant situation.
No, right.
Exactly.
Right.
So a better option is, sir, you can always say like, right this way, sir.
Or if you're handing them a drink, here you are, sir.
That's appropriate.
Luckily, for any age, you don't have the struggle with women. wondering the age sir works for any oh i know that's so easy yes exactly why does it have to link to age for women but not for men right yeah it's just not fair and then the plural is interesting here as well that for a group of men we wouldn't say sirs right this way sirs instead we would say gentlemen like gentlemen if you could please come with me very polite right mm-hmm Are you in charge of hiring at your company?
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All right.
We're going to have a great role play today, I'm sure.
I'm the concierge of a hotel here.
And Lindsay, you are waiting to check in and you're with a group of people here.
Okay.
So the context is already a little bit more formal, sounds like.
Is that right?
Yes.
I've made myself a concierge because it has to be someone who wouldn't know your first names, right?
Because once you know someone's first name... then this kind of goes out the window.
I can just say, come with me, Lindsay.
But if I don't know your name, then what standalone label can I use?
All right, let's see what we do here.
All right, I'll start.
All right.
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Welcome to the Parkview Hotel.
How can I assist you today?
Hi, we have a reservation for three under Lindsay.
Certainly, miss.
I see it here.
A two bedroom suite for three nights.
I have a wristband here for each of you ladies and for you as well, sir.
Oh, and there's a credit card here on the desk.
I think the woman that was just here left it.
Oh, thank you.
We'll get it back to her right away.
Wow.
This is pretty complex when you think about all the different usages here.
Yeah.
So you greeted us by saying good evening, ladies and gentlemen, because there are women and men in the group right.
And then when I went to refer to you directly, I said, certainly, miss.
I could maybe say ma'am.
But I do think when you're right at our age we're kind of on the cusp of miss and ma'am.
We feel we don't mind someone saying miss.
Better to go down, better to go down than to go up.
We'd rather you make us feel young than make us feel old.
That's true.
And then you said, I have a wristband here for each of you ladies.
And for you as well, sir.
And we said the plural of ladies when there's more than one woman in a group is oddly fine, right?
Exactly.
So if I were just saying to you, I would not say, certainly, lady, here you go.
Or I have a wristband for you, lady, right?
We don't use it as an individual standalone label, but to a group of women, then we do say...
For you ladies.
Yes.
And for you as well, sir.
And there's a little pause because there's a comma there, right?
For you as well, sir.
Nice.
Love that.
And then what's the last thing I said?
Yeah.
And this is a little bit of a bonus here.
So we wouldn't say lady, when you know there's a credit card on the counter here and you saw the woman that was there, before you leave it.
And so you say, I think the woman that was just here left it.
This is interesting.
Would you say, I think the lady that was just here left it?
Okay, so yeah, I might.
Because it's not a label.
You're not calling her lady.
You're not saying lady, right?
Hey, lady.
I love the horse voice that comes out every time I demonstrate that.
It's just great.
No.
So I do sometimes say it in that context.
I might say, Oh, the lady was just here.
I think it's okay.
But I think it's more polite to say woman, the woman that was just here.
Yeah.
That's definitely a nuance.
Like it's very subtle.
I think the woman that was just here you could say lady, it's a little more polite to.
But interestingly, these sort of rules that we've been teaching you today are really only when you are referring to someone directly, when you're replacing their name with like lady or woman, right?
We wouldn't say, here you go, lady, as if lady is their name.
But when you're referring to someone else, then these words are fine.
They're acceptable.
Oh, my gosh.
I'm so glad you traveled to Mexico to have a scenario, this situation.
And what a great episode, Aubrey.
I agree.
So interesting.
This can be such a tricky situation, right?
To know which standalone label to use.
Don't want to offend somebody.
But you may have been taught the wrong thing.
Like a lot of these people at this resort in Cancun, in this whole area, all of the teachers are teaching them, something that, at least, is not accurate in the state.
Or there could be a translation from our native languages that could be happening, right?
That could also be going on.
But I think the most important thing is don't let this hinder connection, because this will come at the very beginning of an interaction.
And if you don't know what to use, go with what comes to mind and do other things to strike up the connection.
Smiling.
Like you probably still felt like you had a nice connection with that woman, right?
She's using the intonation.
She's using the friendliness, the smile.
Right was able to get us past any implication of the word she was using.
So that's a really good testament of connection, not perfection.
Even if you're making a mistake.
You're using a word that has this pretty negative connotation, right?
Whoever you're talking to knows that your real goal is to connect with them.
And even then, it won't really matter.
I love it.
Such a good episode today, guys.
If you love our style episodes like this, go ahead and hit that follow button on All Ears English right now.
And don't forget to opt in for the professional level two course coming up soon at allersenglishcom slash high stakes.
All right.
Thanks, Lindsay.
All right, Aubrey.
Talk to you soon.
Have a good one.
Bye.
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