This is an All-Ears English Podcast episode 2202, Conor Pay from Listening Time on Three
Ways to Move Into Advanced English.
Welcome to the All-Ears English Podcast, downloaded more than 200 million times.
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Do you find yourself stuck at the upper intermediate level, not able to move into advanced fluency
and repeating the same words over and over?
You can accomplish most tasks in English, but something is still missing.
Today, I interview Conor Pay from Listening Time Podcast on how to finally move past this
plateau.
Hello Conor, welcome to All-Ears English.
How are you today?
I'm doing great, Lindsay.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yes, I'm glad you're here.
I'm going to go ahead and introduce you to our listeners and then we will get into our
topic.
Hi, guys.
Today on the show, I have Conor Pay and Conor is an English teacher and content creator
from San Diego, California, who has spent the last 10 years helping people from around
the world learning English.
Conor is the host of the Listening Time Podcast, a podcast that is designed to help English
learners practice and improve their listening comprehension in a fun and natural way.
San Diego, California, what a great place, Conor.
Yes, I think that by many metrics and by many people's standards, this is one of the
best places to live.
It's got great weather.
It's really a great place.
It's amazing.
California is a very special place because you have an incredible intersection of ocean
and mountains.
Just the nature in itself is striking and then you have the vibrancy of the cultures of
San Diego, Los Angeles.
So I'm a little jealous of anyone that lives in Southern California personally.
Yeah.
Conor, today I have you on the show.
I'm excited to have you on to talk about the common problem that a lot of our listeners
have where they get stuck at that intermediate, upper intermediate level and it's hard to
move into the advance.
Let's say they get stuck at B2 and it's hard to move into C1.
Have you seen that with your listeners and students?
Oh, yeah, for sure, and I've seen it even just as a language learner myself.
And this is something that I've heard referred to as the OK plateau.
Almost like, well, I'm OK.
I speak English.
OK, I can communicate well.
I'm doing pretty well just making friends, maybe even working in the language possibly.
But you kind of get into the zone where you're OK, but you don't really feel like you're
going from OK to, oh, wow, I'm good.
I'm like advanced in English, whatever language that you're learning.
So I see this all the time and it's a frustration that I think almost every, if not every language
learner has at some point once they've reached this level and they just feel like they're
not improving like they were when they were just starting learning.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And what are some of the signs that we know we might be in this place?
First of all, before we move into the solution, how do we know you said maybe we're even
working in English, living in English?
What are some of the signs that we can know other than just emotionally we feel it?
I felt it too in Spanish, for example, but how can we know if we're there?
Yeah, so when you're at kind of that upper intermediate level, you're kind of, you're good
in the language by many people's standards, people would probably say, oh, he's good.
She's good at English.
Oh, her English is good.
We probably feel like we can communicate well.
We don't have trouble kind of finding.
We don't have trouble, let's say negotiating meaning and being able to use the other person
to practice with another speaker, for example, you can just use the language itself.
You don't really need to go back into your own native language to do that.
And you can just use the world and environment around you and interact with it.
You don't feel like you're on that same level as maybe the other people around you that
seem super comfortable.
They're not making as many mistakes as you.
And if they're a native speaker, they're not making mistakes in general, right?
Stakes, little slip ups.
But you can feel this comfort that you can interact in the language, but this is comfort
that you're not where you really want to be where you can say, wow, I'm really comfortable
and confident.
I'm just confident in my language skills, my English.
That's okay.
I like it.
So you're saying, we talk a lot on this show about human connection, you know, connection,
not perfection.
And so it sounds like at this level, we are getting maybe some human connection, but it's
dangerous because we also could slip into complacency because we can, as you say, like what you're
saying, use the environment around us.
We can basically get things done, right?
We can do anything we really need to do in that target language in English.
However, there's still a lot missing in it might be in those interactions.
Maybe we're missing jokes, something like that.
We're missing nuances that would really bring us closer to people and allows to become
more successful.
Is that it?
That's a good way of putting it.
And when you're in groups of native speakers, for example, you're, you're understanding,
but you're not understanding at the same level that everyone else is understanding everything
that's being said because as you mentioned, there are some nuances.
There are some references, even culture plays a role in that, right?
Maybe you just haven't had enough time in that culture to even know some of the things
that they're referencing or some of the expressions that are coming up.
It's not that you don't speak the language well.
It's just that there are, as you mentioned, nuances, subtleties, little distinctions between
your language skills, your, your English and the English that native speakers use around
you.
All right.
I love it.
So I think a lot of our listeners at this point are going to say, ding, that's me, right?
A lot of them are going to see themselves in what you have described here, Connor.
So I think we are ready for some actionable solutions.
So we're looking for three tips today, Connor, that we hope you could share with us on what
we can do to get out of this plateau.
So I mean, technically you could spend years in this place, right?
We need to get out of it.
We need to move into that C1 level, that advanced and mid-advanced level, more towards native
speaking.
So where do we start today?
What will be your first tip, Connor?
Yeah.
So I'm going to go into the three tips.
Before I do that, I want to create this little kind of illustration just to help you understand
my tips better.
So the way that I view a lot of the challenges of this plateau is we're not hearing the
words that we don't know often enough, frequent enough to actually be able to remember them
and eventually understand them and use them.
So like each word has its own turning point, as I would say, like let's say to understand
this word and eventually use this word, you need to hear it 200 times, let's say.
That's the turning point.
And then this word is like 150 times.
You don't know where that turning point is.
It's different for each word, each phrase, each expression, whatever.
And it's different for different people.
And so our goal is to kind of reach that tipping point with all these different words, phrases,
expressions, etc.
That we don't know so that we can eventually actually use them.
And we don't know where that tipping point is, that turning point, I should say.
But we want to reach it faster.
We want to kind of speed that process up and that will eventually help us reach that
advanced level.
So there are three tips I have about this.
The first two are about kind of the speed of trying to reach that turning point for these
different words and phrases faster.
This based on exposing yourself more to them.
And then the third tip will be about kind of a shortcut, a little cheat code to kind
of make that turning point go down from maybe 200 different times being exposed to just
five or something like that word.
After the fifth time, you just know the word.
You just know the first.
Yes.
Okay.
So let me get into that.
So I have this is the one that is kind of the most boring of the three, but it really does
work.
And that is just straight up repetition.
And so I love variety when it comes to language learning.
Variety is key.
And it's what keeps us motivated and interested, right?
Consuming different podcasts, podcasts, different YouTube videos, things like that.
Of course, we want variety.
But incorporating some actual straight up repetition, old school repetition into your
listening, into your reading, even your speaking, this will help because you're going to
repeat a lot of words, a lot of phrases, expressions over and over again.
And you're going to get like maybe five, six, seven different exposures.
Just call them to this same word in a short period of time, which is really going to kind
of help it stick in your mind for longer versus when you just hear a word once, you know,
that's a new word.
You look it up.
Oh, right.
Then you move on, right?
And by 20 minutes later, you've already forgotten what that word was.
Sure.
And then who knows when it's going to come up next, maybe next month, maybe next year?
Who knows?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All the time.
Okay.
I'm going to remember this word and then you forget it.
So that's repetition.
Go ahead.
So you're saying we need a structure and a system.
How do we engineer that repetition?
Because you're right.
I mean, in Spanish, lots of words come up in my lessons.
I think ask my tutor, what does that mean?
And then I move on and I never say that again.
So how do we engineer this kind of repetition?
Right.
Sure.
So if you're studying on your own, let's say you're just watching videos or you're consuming
podcasts, other content, whatever it is.
So what I like to do is I like to kind of mix it up a little bit.
So for example, I might watch a video with subtitles on just if I want to pay attention
to those new words and I go, oh, there's a new phrase.
And then I'll watch that same video again.
Maybe I'll turn the subtitles off and it'll give me kind of a new challenge because now
I'm listening without reading.
So I'm a little more engaged, kind of listening.
Even though it's repeating the same video, it's a little bit more of a challenge now.
So it kind of keeps me more engaged.
And when I hear that new word again, I go, oh, yeah, there's that word.
That little light bulb goes off again.
And I'll maybe do that a third time, maybe turn the subtitles back on or not.
And one of the keys here is to choose really interesting content because obviously watching
boring videos or whatever, you're probably not going to be motivated to do this three
times and repeat it again and again.
But if it's something related to your job, related to your hobbies, your interests, you
can use straight up repetition with videos like that.
Or for example, you can do that with podcasts if they have the transcript.
And one great way to do this is also using a spaced repetition.
There are apps like Enky, for example, in case I apps like that where they kind of do that
for you.
You put in the words, the flashcards that you want to learn.
And they will generate this repetition in the most optimal way possible for your brain.
So you can kind of see it right before you're going to forget it again.
And then it shows you the word and then it'll do it again.
So there are ways to do that.
Okay.
Yeah, I forgot about Enky.
We've talked about Enky a few times on this show, but we haven't talked about it lately.
And that is a really great tool.
I believe that's a free tool as far as I know.
Yeah.
Definitely.
It's a great one.
So it sounds like the first key is repetition, Connor.
And not just repetition, but finding a system, a tool, transcripts, Enky, whatever program
it is that you need in tandem with interesting content.
And I think a big part of life of success in life is just what we pay attention to it.
It sounds like you're asking our listeners to just start paying attention to these new
words.
Right.
That will drive.
Exactly.
Okay.
Such a big for you.
I love it.
Do we have another thing we can do here, Connor?
Round vocabulary?
Yeah.
Or sure.
So we've got that straight up repetition that you can do.
But then there's also indirect repetition as I call it.
And so if that straight up repetition gets a little boring for you, or if you just want
to lean more towards variety and less repetition, but still getting that benefit of seeing kind
of these same new words more than once in a short period of time, you can use indirect
repetition and what you can do is you can listen to the same person talk about the same subject,
but in different videos or different episodes of the podcast or whatever it is.
So you're getting different content.
It's interesting.
It's a new episode.
But the fact that they're talking about the same topic, let's say they're talking about
business, but in it's the same person, but now it's a different episode.
It's not going to be all the same words.
You're going to get some new interesting content, but they're definitely going to repeat
some of their words and some of their phrases.
Yes.
And we, as people, as speakers of languages, we tend to use the same phrases again and again.
We have a certain style, right?
You have your style of English.
I have mine.
And when you listen to someone, let's say, talk in 10 different podcast episodes, you're
going to hear a lot of their same words and phrases that they just like to use again
and again, especially if they're talking about the same topic.
If Lindsay's talking about English in five different episodes of all years English, you're
probably going to hear her talk and use a lot of the same words and phrases, even if
it's a different episode, right?
Is that makes sense?
You know, the order that comes, that sometimes comes with straight up repetition.
You can still get that kind of interesting new content, but you're still getting indirect
repetition because that person uses the same words and phrases.
And then you can cycle through, listen to one person one month and then listen to another
person the next month for example.
I like this idea, Connor.
This would work really well.
If you listen to business podcasts, for example, you notice that there are authors and every
author, when they write a new book, there's a main topic of the book.
There's usually a philosophy and there's some kind of a method or theory, right?
So for example, coming up soon on our show, we interviewed Charles DuHig who wrote super communicators.
He was actually, he was on, I think he was on NBC, MSNBC, you know, and he was on all
our English and he is on many other shows.
So what our listeners could do is just type in Charles DuHig, find his interviews, his
round of interviews, he's done a multiple podcasts and listened to all of them.
It's going to be more or less about the same topic of how to be a super communicator,
but you're going to have different angles like we had the language angle.
Someone else has the business angle.
Someone else has the presentation's angle.
I love the idea of using the fact to Connor around finding guests that are publishing new
content and how they talk about it every time.
Yeah, exactly.
It's interesting way to get repetition, right?
And to still learn about that object, right?
Yeah, really good stuff.
All right.
So what would be the third that we're going to have to run through this quick?
We're running out of time here.
Connor, but you have the third generalist.
Yeah, this is the most interesting one and that is to kind of get this turning point
so that you don't need to hear the same word as many times to remember it.
And that is by actually having an emotional attachment to a new word, a new phrase, an
idiom or whatever it may be.
So for example, when I first went to Mexico back in 2013, I spoke very little Spanish.
I went to a restaurant on my own and instead of ordering the tip, or sorry, asking for
the tip, asking for the quinta, right?
I said, la quinta, board fable.
I asked for the fifth instead of for, sorry, the tip, the check.
I think I've been saying tip, asking for the check, right?
La quinta, I said la quinta.
And the woman looked at me startled like what are you talking about?
And then I realized, oh, wow, wait, it's not quinta, it's quinta.
That word stayed with me 100% without fail for the rest of my life because I had this emotional
attachment to that word, right?
It provoked that emotion in me.
So what we want to do is we want to try to have more of an emotional or some type of reaction
that's kind of more a little bit deeper than just seeing a word, right?
And you can do that through having engaging conversations with people about topics that
you really like that matter to you.
Those words that come up that your tutor uses or that you end up using will be more meaningful
for you.
And maybe you only need to hear it three or four times and then suddenly now it's in your
active vocabulary, right?
Yes.
And you can do this by traveling, right?
You can travel to a country, have physical interactions with things with people and the
word associated with these actions or the experiences that you have.
They're going to be a lot more meaningful for you and maybe you only need to see them
two, three more times.
And then it's like, you got it.
It's in your brain forever pretty much.
And so you can kind of lower that threshold for this turning point by having meaningful
experiences.
And meaningful emotions attached to words, phrases, etc.
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Connor, that's so important.
Right?
We learn when we're emotionally engaged, right?
Whether we're sad or happy or laughing or maybe we're participating in some physical movement,
right?
As we are learning, those are the words we're going to remember.
100%.
I love it.
Yes.
So, this is great, Connor.
So it sounds like broadly speaking vocabulary is a huge part of moving from that
upper intermediate to the advanced level.
Would you say so?
Right.
Yeah.
And that's kind of why I wanted to focus on these three tips specifically.
There are different challenges when it comes to reaching that advanced level.
But I think when it comes down to it, it's, we need words.
We need phrases that don't show up that frequently because when you're just starting to learn
a language, all the words that are really important, they show up again and again and
again, you learn them pretty fast.
You learn the word because really quickly because that comes up.
Again and again, you don't necessarily learn the word picture frame very quickly because
that doesn't come up as frequently.
So later on when you're at an upper intermediate level, you kind of have to give it that little
push or try to make those words a little more frequent for you or make them more emotionally
charged for you in order to learn them more easily, learn them faster.
I love it.
That's what I wanted to focus on.
Okay.
Thank you, Connor.
This is great and so important to put that system into place.
We do have to work a little harder to move beyond that upper intermediate into advance.
It's not the same thing that got us from beginner to intermediate.
What is that expression?
What got us here?
Won't get us there.
Right?
So we need to use these new methods and these are three great ones.
Connor, where can our listeners find your podcast online?
Tell us about your work and if they want to hear more from you.
Yeah, so you can find me.
My podcast is called Listening Time.
So it's on all the major podcast apps, Spotify, Apple podcasts, et cetera.
It's mainly for listening.
So I talk in a slow and clear way and define different words that I use.
I just talk about a lot of different topics about life, travel, pets, cars, whatever it
may be.
It's kind of meant to be an interesting listening tool, but also easy and I provide the transcript
for you.
So you have that to kind of help you understand everything and you can kind of put these
tips into action, do some repetition, things like that with that podcast.
And Listening Time is also a YouTube channel as well.
You can check me out on YouTube.
Any of those two areas I do have Instagram, but I'm not really that active on it.
So mostly the podcast Listening Time on any major podcast app.
All right.
So guys, go ahead and search for the Listening Time podcast.
Is that what it's called again?
Listening Time?
Okay.
And listeners, you guys will be able to find that very quickly.
Go ahead and hit follow on Connor show and Connor.
Thanks for being on all there's English.
I appreciate it.
I was great chatting with you today.
Thank you so much.
It was great being here.
Thank you for having me.
All right.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
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