This is an All Ears English podcast, episode 178.
Gaming will change how you learn English.
Welcome to the All Ears English podcast where you'll finally get real native English conversation and fluency for business and life.
We believe in connection, not perfection, when it comes to learning English.
Now here are your hosts Lindsay McMahon, the English adventurer, and Aubrey Carter, the IELTS whiz, coming to you from Arizona and Boston, USA.
Today's featured guest is a successful video game designer who will teach you how to level up your language learning.
Listen in for his tips on gamifying your English learning.
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Hey, Aubrey, I have a question for you.
Let's hear it.
All right.
So are you a gamer in any way?
No, I was a little bit when I was younger, when I was like in college.
Sometimes I would play video games.
Yeah.
My kids are, though.
It drives me crazy.
They could play video games for hours and hours.
But then they turn into, I call them little screen zombies.
Yeah.
Do they get all like kind of in a bad mood?
They get grumpy, right?
Yes, they get grumpy.
I see it affect their behavior.
So I don't let them have that much screen time.
Yeah, screen time does make you a little grumpy.
Not only just games, but gaming, but also just watching TV.
You know, if you spend an afternoon watching TV, you can get up and feel kind of grumpy.
Yes, it's so true.
But it's interesting because I'm a huge game player.
So these are two very different things.
If someone asks, are you a gamer?
That very much means video games on screen, right?
Yes.
I imagine a leather chair, someone with a super CPU computer, right?
Lots of RAM in their computer sitting in the dark with headphones on.
Always in the dark in their mom's basement, right?
Yes.
But it's very different to just say, do you enjoy playing games?
Because then we're talking about card games and board games and sports and very different conversation, right?
That's a really important distinction for our listeners.
So guys, write that down.
You know, if I ask Aubrey, are you a gamer?
It means do you play video games?
And do you enjoy playing games is just that, right?
Do you enjoy playing Monopoly or Whatever, card games, that kind of thing.
Lots of fun games, yeah.
So today, this is going to be interesting.
We're talking to an entrepreneur and media professional.
His name is Jeremy.
He has extensive experience creating video games and apps.
And his passion is applying really engaging video game content and game intelligence to education.
And he has three really interesting tips for gamifying your language learning.
Trying to tap into that.
What makes video games so fun and addictive?
And how can you translate that to your language learning?
I love that.
And this is another buzz term right now, to gamify something.
You're going to hear this, guys, if you work in the corporate world.
I think that corporations try to gamify their learning management systems, right?
Your training progress.
Consultants gamify things.
This is so common.
So as a verb, to gamify, how would you define that again, Aubrey?
Yeah.
Yeah, to convert something into a game.
So it makes me think about we just downloaded an app that tracks our driving safety.
And if we drive really safe, then...
Yes.
Then we get a discount on our car insurance.
But they even gamified this app.
So all of us on our policy right now, it's just me and my husband.
We were like competing to have the first place award.
And after each time you drive, they're calculating who's a better driver.
And either I have the award for first place or he does.
So we're competing with each other.
That's so innovative.
That's really smart.
I love that.
I love that, actually.
And then there's a real reward, which is saving money on your insurance.
Exactly right.
So we're both motivated to get that reward, but a little extra motivated, competing with each other to be the safer driver.
So there are ways that we can make language learning really fun, you know, gamify it.
So I'm excited to hear from Jeremy today and see what he has to say.
Yes, these tips are amazing.
So let's hear his first tip about making language learning fun.
Okay.
I'm having a blast doing this.
I've been building apps and games for 10 years or more.
I did it for about 10 years at a major film studio here in Hollywood.
And And.
Then I had kids and really just wanted to apply a lot of what I learned with game design and game intelligence and how humans are motivated and why games are so engaging and sticky and fun and so hard to put down.
To me, it was always a shame most educational products didn't have those same um, you know, psychological draws, that that the best games do.
Yeah, and so you know, and we as a company and i know a lot of smart people in the valley um, you know, in silicon valley, are really thinking about this as well is that we believe in, in five years, when everyone has grown up on an iPad, that kids just won't tolerate learning in any other way?
The technology is there.
It doesn't always take an iPad or a smartphone to, quote unquote, gamify your language learning.
People have been talking for years about.
The most simple one is just study things that you're interested in.
I know a lot of teachers and otherwise who have said the best thing you can do minus a really good product that immerses you is just pick up a comic book in a language that you're interested Or, if you like martial arts, read martial arts books that are in the language that you care about, or magazines that focus on things that you really enjoy in another language.
Because for us, there's a few reasons why people really struggle with language.
To me, the biggest one is just motivation.
That um, you know, if you're not it's, you know.
It's really simple.
But if, if you don't spend enough time with something like language that needs a ton of repetition, you know it's.
You have to be a genius to retain it.
And so most of us aren't, I'm certainly not.
And so for me, it was always about how do I find things that I would do anyway.
And I think that's what we're focused on, like bringing content and music to language learning, bringing game mechanics that we know have attracted millions and tens of millions of people already to play.
How do we sneak language acquisition into those things that people already find inherently fun sticky, motivating and that they would do even if you took the language learning out of them?
This is so key just to make it fun, right?
Learn the language through something you enjoy and would do anyway.
Yeah, for sure.
And we're seeing this with AI, the use of AI now, you know, there are a lot of ways you can do it.
But I wonder, I think our listeners are going to wonder okay, what can they do right to control their own learning?
So well, for example, if you're going to take a cooking class or a dance class, take it in the target language.
If you live in an English speaking country, yes, get out there and take classes in English.
But if you don't, you can do these classes online.
And you have the option of taking them in your first language or seeking them out in English.
So challenge yourself and do that in English, right?
Oh, man, I should do this.
I should take this advice.
I'm looking to take some dance classes here in Denver.
And so I should look into taking one in Spanish.
Yes, for sure.
I love that idea.
Take your own advice, Lindsay.
Yeah, take my own advice.
Exactly.
All right.
So then what did he talk about in his next clip?
Yeah.
So this is his second tip, and it's all about immersing your language learner in something that you are interested in.
So let's hear that.
You know.
The other suggestion is figuring out ways to relate your new language to you, so that you know.
Of course you should learn the survival stuff.
You need to learn how to ask directions and order food and do all those survival things.
And there's a lot of good curriculums around survival language.
But once you get past those basics, you know one of the reasons why I think studying things or immersing yourself in things that you really enjoy is because you really enjoy them.
And so you're going to.
It's going to be a lot easier for you to talk about soccer or your martial art or music in a new language if you are actually passionate about that.
And if you're immersed in the vocabulary.
I mean, I took martial arts for for 15 years and a few of them were Japanese-based schools.
And just hearing the ancient sort of language and the vocabulary around, how all that stuff is described in Japanese, I mean that stuck with me forever.
Even stupid things like they count every.
You know everything is counting in the new language, and there's probably three or four hundred vocab words start and end and begin and stop and all of those things that just you know.
Japanese teacher that's, that's how he did it, so i'll remember that stuff for life.
Point number one is just figure out a way to make it fun, and that's what we're focusing on in terms of technology and games and music and content, but also focus on the things that are interesting to you, because ultimately, you want to learn how to talk about yourself in a new way.
Okay.
So again, this is definitely easier.
If you're living in a country, you're immersed.
You can go out and join a sports team or take a class, like we were saying.
But if you're not, you can do like meetup online.
You can find groups online.
Wherever you are in English, there are expats all over the world.
Yeah.
And you can still seek out hobbies, something that you would do in your free time, and do it in English.
Yeah.
And I love the example about martial arts.
That's fantastic.
I actually tried this when I was living in Tokyo.
I tried a karate, as they say, class, karate class.
And that was fun.
Like, you know, all the gear getting in there and just hearing Japanese.
Very cool.
And such an immersive experience, guys.
So give it a try.
Yes, right?
Immersing yourself both in the culture and in the language.
It's just a win-win on all fronts.
Yeah, I love it.
Okay, what else, Aubrey?
What else do we need to know from Jeremy here?
Yes, okay.
So his third tip is about using a system to learn language where you level up, or creating that for yourself.
So let's hear about that.
This is fascinating.
I did spend a lot of time in things that were sports related and martial arts related and things where there were that naturally surface up all of the amazing things that games do, and martial arts is such a classic example, because the belt system in martial arts is like the quintessential game design system.
It pulls all of the levers you could imagine that are effective in sort of gamifying, something that's education-based right.
So you know, if you look at the levers in sort of the belt system, it's There's this very clear progression to mastery.
You know exactly the steps that you need to take.
There's a whole status component to belts in martial arts where if you're a white belt and you walk in To a class, you don't want to be a white belt.
You want to get to that next level.
And once you get to the next level, you really want to get to the next level.
And there's this very amazingly clear hierarchy.
The best games also employ something which in game design is called cascading information theory.
They don't give you too much at once.
They just give you new information in very small doses.
And then, and then once you master that, they go on to the next thing.
And sports are really good at that as well.
Where learn this one little fundamental?
And let's build on it, and let's build on it, and let's build on it.
So that's what we look for.
I mean, we we really look at the psychology of learning and how do you apply things that games do really well to language learning?
And so that's the fun part, because you know, so many games are so great at manipulating behavior, but there's no payoff at the end, right?
You either spend money or waste your time.
We're trying to design experiences that keep you super motivated.
But at the end of it, you know, you'll know 10 new words in your target language.
You will have heard, you know, in that one 10 minute session, you know you will have heard your new language a thousand times because it's so fast paced and
Um, so that's the stuff that fascinates us and that and that we think is, you know, over the next five, 10 years, is where you know technology and education gaming science, it's going to it's.
I mean, I wish I had this stuff.
You know 10 years, you know 20 years ago, when I was studying Russian in high school like,
Okay, so he's talking more about martial arts and that belt system where you're a white belt and you want to become a black belt.
And that is the ideal gamification where you are motivated to level up to compete.
And I mean, there's a reason video games are so addictive, right?
They're accessing that drive we have to level up to improve and progress.
Yeah.
And I think a key of this is making sure that we know exactly what we can do to level up.
Like you know, in your game for your insurance right the car insurance that you have to drive well like you have to stop at stop signs.
You can't run red lights.
You know exactly how to move up.
So, guys, when you're engineering a game for yourself or if you're designing a course, let's say.
You want to make sure that people know how to increase their status in the program.
Exactly.
Right.
And where he's talking about you sort of creating this level up experience for yourself.
You can be very systematic about.
OK, what does that what?
What does that mean for me to reach the next level?
Does that mean that I'm using a specific vocabulary in a way that I want?
Or is it going out and speaking to someone?
You'll have to decide.
You're going to create this game for yourself and decide what does that mean to level up?
Okay.
So we're asking our listeners today to go ahead and create a game, like draw up the rules.
So cool.
I love this idea.
I know this would really be effective for me because I am motivated by competition, by games.
So I need to do this for myself.
So good.
All right.
So the thing is that learning doesn't have to feel like work, right?
In this next clip, he's going to share why it is so important to see language learning as fun instead of seeing it as education.
I can really see the difference there.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, let's hear.
All right.
You know there's a mantra, sort of in the Silicon Valley, that Um that that kids will turn away from games as soon as they know they're educational.
And we think that's been true because and it certainly has if you look at the numbers um, but it's because you know, most people who've tried to quote unquote gamify education, have taken
Things that are inherently boring and they've tried to put some lipstick on them and try to almost calm kids into thinking that they're fun with points and badges and things that are just completely missing the point on the psychological reasons why games are fun.
As a company, we're starting with things that we know inherently fun, like listening to your favorite music and playing games like Candy Crush, and we're figuring out ways to sneak the language acquisition in the back door of those things, and so it's not a choice it doesn't have to be a choice between education and fun.
The technology is there now to combine those just explosive growth and and and benefit to people because, you know, people are people's attention spans, are are so fractured and and there's so many things competing for time and attention and and and motivation.
Um, and so you know we need to build things that are capturing people and their attention and the way they're doing it today.
You're not going to turn the clock back.
There's no way.
Oh, I think this is so true.
I've seen this with my kids where if they see it as a game, they will spend hours.
But if they know it's educational, they know mom wants them to do it to learn math or English.
Forget it.
It's like pulling teeth to get them to do it.
Yeah.
And I remember being a kid and having that thought.
As soon as anyone dropped the word educational, I would go running.
I just didn't want to hear that.
It just automatically took away the draw of the game.
Exactly.
Right.
So what he said he was working on doing was taking games that are really fun and addictive, like Candy Crush, and sneaking education into them, where you have to read things, you have to learn vocabulary, in order to level up inside the game.
And I can see this being smart for you guys.
If you can really see your language learning journey as fun as engaging, you're almost tricking your brain so that what you become addicted to and really excited about is actually educational.
You're actually learning.
Yeah, 100%.
And guys to think about some exact things you could do right away to experience without designing your own game.
If you just want to get playing with English games, I think Duolingo does a pretty good job of gamifying their app.
What do you think?
Aubrey.
Yes.
Especially I feel like if you have other friends that will do it with you.
Right.
So you could do that with Duolingo.
Yes.
And that makes a big difference because for me, I tried Duolingo and I did it for a while.
And if I'm just competing with myself to try and get more points and level up, that is not as motivating for me as once I have some friends join in too.
And then we're competing with each other and this is different for every person.
It might be enough for you to compete with yourself.
If I have other friends in there and it's more social, that's when I get excited about it.
Oh, I love that idea.
There's also the accountability.
If you have your profile, if everyone sees on one page everyone who's competing, all your friends, and maybe the number of minutes you spent in the app or what tests you passed.
That matters because that's accountability.
And if you're not doing your work, we're going to see that.
Right.
Exactly.
A little bit of negative reinforcement, but also positive, because you can then encourage each other, say great job.
I saw you reach this certain award.
And it's exciting to have someone acknowledge that and recognize that.
I love that.
So what's the takeaway for today?
Yeah, definitely.
Just you want to make your language learning fun, you guys.
Just like he was saying, focus on what you enjoy.
Learn through that.
Whether it's a sport, a hobby games apps books magazines, you want it to pull you in.
You want it to be something you would do anyway, and then just do it in English.
Yeah, so if anyone goes ahead and designs their own game, and you guys totally can.
I mean, you could design scavenger hunts for our urban immersion adventure in Boston.
We designed some really cool scavenger hunts, kind of like scavenger hunts, where we had our students going into the community of Boston talking to native speakers, getting some information and then coming back to their team.
Right.
You can design this for yourself.
OK, guys, I love that idea.
Right.
You're accessing that game design mechanism.
You can create it where you're leveling up.
But I love scavenger hunts.
My kids love scavenger hunts.
I love that idea to do it as so that what you're doing, instead of finding an object, you're creating a connection with someone.
You're having a conversation and that's what you have to do for the scavenger hunt.
It makes me wish we could all be in person, you know, learning together, you know?
Yeah.
Because the physical element is important too.
You know, you're running around town and you're getting an answer on something.
You're running back to your team and Some things you just can't quite get online like you can get in person.
You can't get the physical running around as much.
It's true.
But this is really good.
So guys, find a way to gamify your learning, as Jeremy says.
And I want to thank Jeremy for coming on the show.
This has been great.
Yes.
So fun.
Awesome.
We'll see you next time, Lindsay.
All right.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
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