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Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Riz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me to help you.
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All right, let's get to it.
My guest today is the fabulous Maureen Kelly.
She's the founder and CEO of Tarte Cosmetics.
Maureen, welcome to the show.
I'm so excited to be here.
So excited to have you back with us.
We had you on the show, I think in January of 2023.
Yes. My first and only podcast I've ever done.
It was so fun. We told the story about Tarte.
Your story is just full of amazing ups and downs.
And by the way, if anyone listening, if you haven't heard that story, please scroll back and check out the story of Tarte Cosmetics.
And we'll also put a link to it in the show notes.
Maureen, you are still the CEO to this day.
I am, yes. I was not ready to hang up my high heels and hang on the beach.
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
I mean, you're too young.
You've got your whole life ahead of you.
I want to, we're going to talk a lot about it.
I think a lot of the callers today probably are going to want to talk about how to break out, you know, how to get attention, how to get, you know, more visibility with their brands.
One of the things that you did right from the get go was you, I think it was your first, very first product was a, like a gel, like a gel blush.
Cheek stain. And that's the cheek stain.
And that a cheek stain. It was called a cheek stain.
It was, and it was like so weird and different.
And that really got you a lot of early attention, right?
It did. It really did. And I felt like it was a product that was missing in the market because it was missing in my makeup routine.
Put a few dots on your cheeks and you blended it and it stayed all day and beauty editors loved it.
And then customers loved it.
I mean, who would name something a cheek stain?
That sounds like a little bit scary, right?
But yeah, I wasn't like a marketing person had I been.
I probably would not have named it a cheek stain.
But I think actually your instinct was right, right?
It works for me. Yeah. And you got into some boutiques in New York on the strength of just being this, because you were a kid.
I mean, you were so young.
Yes, I was. Trying to come across as a cosmetics entrepreneur, which you were, but still like.
I was not a guy. You're so kind.
I was not a cosmetics entrepreneur.
And I think that's the thing, right?
The whole like, fake it till you feel it at the end of the day.
Like, it's okay to try things.
It's also okay to fail. I've failed so, you know, I've had to hurt now 25 years and I can't even tell you how many times I have failed and, you know, just gotten back up off of my knees and, you know, just took the first step and the second step and the third step.
Yeah. Maureen, let's take a call.
Let's do it. Yes. Let's do it.
Let's give some advice.
Let's see what we can do.
Let's bring on our first caller.
Hello. Hi, guys. Hi. Hello.
Please introduce yourself.
Tell us where you're calling from and just briefly about your business.
Hi. My name is Christina O'Brien and I live in Los Angeles.
I am the co-founder of Badari.
Badari is a sexy and lightweight athletic underwear that you can be active in all day.
Okay. Yeah. Amazing. Okay.
And Christina, what question have you brought us?
So, we are self-funded.
It's Danielle, my business partner and myself.
And we have an Amazon page.
We launched on Shopify in 2022.
Our main product is actually a subscription box.
So every six months, surprise, you get three new panties.
So that's going great. So we worked really hard.
How do we scale from here?
What do we do next? Got it.
Okay. All right. We're going to get to your question in a moment, but I have some questions for you first.
So I'm looking at your webpage, Badari, and obviously this is not my area of expertise.
But it's so interesting.
So we're talking about underwear.
And tell me how many of you are these performance underwear?
How are they, what do they design?
They're super cute. Your wife will love them.
They're adorable. Thank you.
Yes, they are essentially a performance panty.
You nailed it. Okay. We just found a hole in the market between a panty that was really pretty, a lazy and kind of sexy to see on the market that there were some underwear that actually were functional, but they just weren't very cute.
They were functional, but not pretty.
Right. So we married the two together.
So you could wear this on a run, at a yoga class, and then just put on the skirt and go out on a date or something, whatever.
That's the idea. All day long.
You got it for all occasions.
All right. Tell me how this idea came about.
What were you doing? Because I think you founded this relatively recently, right?
In the last couple of years.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's sort of embarrassing, but it's actually something that we should talk about.
Yeah. Let's talk. It's an uncomfortable product.
So here we go. Right. Yes.
My face is bright red, but anyways, this is the deal.
I true story. My best friend, Danielle and I, who's the co-founder, went away on this tiny vacation and we did a workout and post-workout.
I was like, hold on. Can't go eat.
I got to run and take a shower.
And she's like, that's crazy.
Like, what are you doing?
I said, I'm sorry. Post-workout, there's some discomfort, maybe not so much freshness.
Could lead to TMI, but other things.
And she thought I was crazy.
And I was like, I'll be right back.
So post this trip, she comes up with this idea, like why wouldn't we marry the panty that we like, which is like a hanky-panky, all cotton, but something that's more again, lightweight, sweat wicking, breathable.
And I was like, that's genius.
So we then took it upon ourselves to order, I don't know, every panty on the market.
My husband was like, what is all this stuff coming in?
Your husband was like, yeah.
He was literally like, I think I like this.
I think I like this business.
You're in. Yeah. He's like, that's why I married you.
So literally we tried everything.
We literally took off the scissors and a glue gun.
Like we're not fashion textile experts.
We met doing medical device sales, literally in the operating room and hit it off like 20 years ago.
Oh my gosh, you guys met in the operating room.
Operating room, mask on, scrubs.
So we were like consultants to the surgeons during their surgeries.
And we hit it off because it's.
By the way, what kind of devices were you selling?
Oh my gosh. Well, what's crazy is at the time I was selling a mesh device for hernia repair.
And you have to know that the technology of Badari today is related to that technology I used to sell.
Our product today, the liner has actually small interstices, small holes to allow breathability.
So it's crazy how it crossed over.
This is like a little like Sarah Bleakley-esque, right guy?
Yeah. I was thinking about that.
Yeah. Because she, when she designed Spanx, it was designed to eliminate that like, if, you know, when women were scourced, you could see their underwear line, right?
And she wanted to eliminate that line in underwear.
Oh yeah. It's seamless.
It's great. That is such a great point.
No, we initially launched this in an active panty, a sexy panty that you can be active in all day.
And then we sort of started to niche ourselves into this athletic area.
Just again, because the active wear market is so massive and it's growing like crazy.
So we live in a volleyball area, right?
So the volleyball players around here love it.
Runners love it. The lace on the sides actually really keeps the panty in place.
So it doesn't roll over and women love that.
So women that do yoga or workout or I have a tennis player wearing my product too.
So you should come up with a name, like you should name that lace because like when I looked at it, I thought like it was just really pretty and that you did it for like that factor.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, it's not clear. Like all these things you're talking about are not clear on the site.
Like you don't know, yeah, you can sort of see that their performance and they're supposed to look nice, but all the design thinking around it, you know, I know you've got a graphic of the wick proof material, but even this thing that you talk about with a lace or the fact that it's designed to be seamless.
And you know, I feel like all of that energy that you're bringing to this conversation somehow needs to be reflected on your landing page, even though that may not be the place where most people buy the products from, they might go TikTok, but that has to be the place where your brand Bible, like that's the brand Bible right there, right?
Yes, because that's the first place I went when I was like, oh, let me check out her product and just like read about it.
You know, everybody sweats.
Yeah. Right? And it's not just to me, like athletes, like personally, I would say like if I were you, I would broaden my reach a little bit.
I think that like something like don't sweat it.
Like we've got your back because obviously it's like, oh, that's cute.
Oh, that's cute. I like that.
So like do some kind of like with editors, do some kind of a sweat challenge.
So you send them to do like a hot yoga class or like a spin class or something like that.
And it's like your brand guarantee.
I feel like you could do like the marathon test, the bike ride bullets, like, you know, the gym workout gauntlet.
I love that. I think that's incredible feedback.
I think another thing we're thinking with our limited funding is like where to go next, right?
Do we find an athletic influencer?
Do we try to have like Maureen's skillset, luck, Bendel's opportunity and like get on QVC?
Like do we do Google and Facebook ads?
Like kind of where do we go next to scale this company?
Yeah, this is a really, really important question because you've got this really cool product.
And your price point is not, your price point is really great, right?
I mean, I don't know what, I'll be honest, I don't know what panties cost.
But like this is a pretty good price, right?
It's reasonable. It's reasonable.
It's 18 bucks, right? So I'm thinking like the idea and you're trying to figure out where to take your marketing dollars and presumably you don't have tens of thousands to spend, right?
Maybe you have a 10, 20, 30,000 to spend or not even that much.
Yes. I would definitely go to QVC for sure.
I think this could be great, especially with, you know, I was saying that don't sweat it.
I think that applies to so many different times in life.
Like Rush is coming up right now.
And I think like don't sweat it.
Like that's obviously college age.
So you got this. Someone that's going through an interview process, like send it to like your girlfriend, your best friends, whatever, like it's like a good luck thing.
You know, for like cheer tryouts, the same thing.
Bridal is coming up. It's like, I know you were saying you're like excited because you can see a market for active wear.
But when you niche yourself so far down, it can make it very difficult to.
Well, I totally agree. I think this product is truly for the everyday woman.
The working woman, you know, the photographer who's up and down all day long, the woman that just sweat.
Every woman who wears, who sweats.
Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yes.
Post it right now. You could have worn it and then put it on your Instagram and TikTok and been like, oh my gosh, meeting IRS.
Like, but I'm not sweating it.
I'm still going to take that idea.
I'm just sweating, listening to this.
And I'm going to take that idea.
Thank you. No, no, to your point, I think I've learned that my market is a lot bigger than I initially thought.
Like I had a mom that it was her daughter's sweet 16th birthday and she ordered 12 of them for her and like the really cute, you know, pink ones and with a cute bow, I packaged them.
And so I think the market is bigger.
Got it. I'm just so happy that I have boys right now.
I'm the father of two boys.
I'm the boy of the dance cover station.
I love when my son's walking by.
He's like, mom, tell me about your marketing pitch.
I'm like, I don't know if I want to tell you about my sexy, sweet, like seamless, sweat-wicking biennium.
No, it's a super innovative product.
I think, you know, it's your question about where to put your dollars.
I mean, I think your instincts are right.
You know, finding athletic influencers, finding, you know, maybe putting some budget together for a PR firm, but it's a kind of thing that really does, you know, it's an unusual enough product that, you know, you can imagine bloggers' websites being interested in the story because it is, it's like, you can be sexy and you can like go on a run.
You know, there aren't many, many things out there like that.
So definitely get that quote.
Definitely get that quote and throw it on the website.
But again, I wouldn't niche so far down, right?
Yes. I mean, lean is women in sports.
I'm obsessed. Like, I definitely feel like, especially like right now, women in sports, having such a big moment.
So you should be seeding this to everyone you can think of in addition to like, you know, marathon, track teams, gymnastics teams, I don't know, do SoulCycle partnership, like, you know, and then you can even do fun partnership with like Deodorant Company, like Native or something like that.
I don't know. I think this is such a cool product and you have so much potential.
And you need to give product away.
I'm sure you're doing some of that, but it's going to cost you.
It's going to cost you money.
But that's a big market.
I mean, you're in LA. And the thing about being in LA is you are in one of the two biggest markets in the United States and one of the biggest in the world, right?
What starts in LA goes national and international.
And so you have a competitive advantage because you are already there.
And do the embroidery because customization is key.
Everyone loves personalization.
Yeah, that's fine. That's a fun idea.
So like pick these amazing athletes that are just killing it and doing so well because they're getting so much stuff.
So they tend to set it aside.
But if it's personalized and customized, you're going to get a second look.
I promise you. You actually like put like if you're setting it's like Caitlyn Clark or something, you like embroider her name on it, Maureen.
Is that what you mean? A thousand percent, yes.
Love it. Like what are people's nicknames?
Like Google them. You don't even just think things like that.
Just and then right on the car, just be like sweat challenge and put like the technology.
You know what I mean? Just be like, don't sweat it.
We've got your back. You know, just like really good.
Look at that. Christina, you got your own in-house CMO right here.
Come on my board. I don't have one yet.
Do you want to join my board?
The company is Badari Christina O'Brien.
Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in and yeah, we'll be following you.
Thanks for having me. Bye, Christina.
So yeah, I mean this is the thing.
Clearly they don't have a massive marketing budget.
They don't have millions of dollars to spend or thousands of, maybe a few thousand.
But this is the kind of product that almost screams out like a strategic partnership.
And as you say, getting it to women athletes, that could be really interesting.
I think of on shoes and Roger Federer and like, you can imagine like a strategic partnership with a right athlete or influencer or somebody who's willing to, you know, of course model these on social media, but who also has like an equity stake in the company.
That could be an interesting thing for them to explore.
Yes, absolutely. Okay, Maureen, we're going to take a quick break.
But when we come back, we're going to talk with a hair care expert about how to position her new line of chemical free hair care products.
Stay with us. I'm Guy Ross and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.
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Hello everyone, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm with Maureen Kelly of Tarte Cosmetics.
Okay, let's bring in another caller.
Hello. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Yeah, this is Ashley Stark, founder of Perry Haircare, calling from Indianapolis, Indiana.
Nice. Perry provides premium hair care solutions for consumers seeking to avoid harsh chemicals for enhancing scalp health, hair back vitality, and safeguarding color integrity.
Got it. Okay. And what's your question?
Yeah, my question for you guys is, in today's very saturated hair care market with no budget for advertising, how would you prioritize your efforts to sell this product, whether targeting businesses or individual consumers?
Got it. Okay, Ashley, awesome.
We're going to get to your question in a second, but a couple of questions for me.
First of all, I'm looking at your site, and here, this is one of the coolest things.
Maureen, when you started Tarte in 2000, it wasn't easy.
You couldn't just go to Squarespace or Shopify or wherever, go daddy and just build a website from scratch.
You had to hire somebody in HTML, and I'm looking at their website, and this doesn't look like a company that has no budget.
This looks like a serious established brand, but relatively new, right?
Tell us how you started the company.
Yeah, it's definitely relatively new.
We've been at it for about a year and a half, but we just got our product about just six months ago.
So we're very new to having the product in our hands.
And tell us what's your other business because you also are part of another hair company.
I'm newly a co-owner at a hair restoration clinic in Indianapolis.
We've been in business for almost 25 years, helping with hair loss across the board for men and women.
And how did you decide to create this business?
Tell me the back story. Yeah, we actually saw a gap in this very saturated market.
We carry a lot of different product lines at the hair restoration clinic.
Some are more medical grade products that focus on scalp health specifically, and some of the products are more salon grade focused on the hair health.
So I found myself bouncing around between 20 different products throughout the week, and we just realized there wasn't one solution that really married both and was free from harsh chemicals.
Okay, you are direct to consumer right now, I'm assuming, only, right?
Yes. Yes. So first of all, what's the differentiating factor here?
You mentioned finding a gap in the market.
This is a saturated market.
So what is that specific gap?
Yeah, it was finding a product that really married all of those elements that really can address your scalp concerns and maintaining the exact oil levels that you need in your scalp with caring for the actual health of your hair and avoiding all of those harsh chemicals like sulfates and silicones that can build up over time.
So you're free of sulfates and silicones?
Yes. And I don't see that clearly on the site at all.
Maybe it is here? Yeah, I totally agree, guy.
I feel like in general, like you need, like, I started to go really deep into your background.
I went to your LinkedIn, all the things.
It didn't show what guy was starting to ask, like, what the real point of difference is with your brand and with hair.
It's so important to help people understand what the point of difference is with the product, what's in it, what's not in it.
And I feel like you're not really seeing that as much on the website.
And then the other big thing is having the before and after progressions, which are not that hard to do.
I feel like I saw one, like, B&A, and it's very similar with makeup and skincare, right?
So you're seeing, let's say it's like a, you know, like a product for fine lines and wrinkles, like an eye cream or something like that, seeing what it's doing at the two week mark, the one month mark, the three month mark, with hair.
I mean, that's what you have to see is the difference in what it's doing for your hair.
And I feel like that's something that you could add.
Oh, that's interesting.
I like that idea, showing the progression.
Let me ask you a couple of questions.
Are you, you're asking whether to target businesses or individual consumers?
First of all, do you go to trade shows already in the hair space, hair care space?
No. So we're new to the product industry completely.
I am considering going to one in June to try to get in front of some distributors.
Yeah. I mean, I think you've got to go to the trade shows, right?
Because you want to show this product out.
And because you're talking about how do you set up meetings with the retailers and distributors and, you know, Drunk Elephant.
Great episode to listen to.
Yes. But what Tiffany did was, you know, she went to every trade show and eventually buyers from Sephora and Alta came by and then she got meetings and it was just her and her sister, a trade show and a fold up table, you know.
And Maureen, I think you can relate to this, right?
It's like you've got to, it was different when you started in 2000.
You were in New York, you went to Henry Bendles.
But actually you've got to go, you got to put this out there and you've got to talk about it with people because that's the way to get your foot in with retailers.
And you're an expert. I mean, the fact that you are a co-owner in this hair restoration company, like I just think that sets you apart in the most incredible way.
You're not just like a girl that wanted to start, you know, a hair brand.
I mean, you have, I think, like six years or so at that other company.
I also think you should do a hair quiz on your website.
Like so, for example, having Shape Tape concealer, we have a concealer quiz on the website and it's like, are you wearing the wrong concealers?
Like the first question.
So yours should be like, is your shampoo making your hair flat?
Or, you know, like, I mean, you would know better with hair stuff, but you can, you know, you ask sort of like a disruptive question.
So people click on it and then you take them down through all of these questions to where you make recommendations to like what you think that they should be using and even not using because you are an expert.
I mean, having all these years of experience, having this hair restoration company, that's also something I feel like is missing from your website.
And when I say it's missing from your website, I mean, you could, your website's phenomenal for someone who just started at like six, I don't know, I think you said like six months ago, you started with the product.
It's incredible. You can add the educational stuff in so quickly and easily because when people are having struggles with their hair, I think women panic and men.
And so then they look to places for information.
And if you were that source of information, you're clearly the expert, they're going to trust you.
You have the quiz, you have the information, and then you establish like the regimen.
Yeah. Also, Ashley, who is your target, who's your ideal customer?
Like what's going on in their life that they would need this product?
The ideal customer that we're going after is the health conscious consumer that's looking to avoid those harsh chemicals.
So not someone who's struggling with their hair.
They could definitely be struggling with their hair.
We've kind of looked at a couple of different audiences.
If someone's educated on scalp health at all and they know it kind of goes hand in hand to avoid those harsh chemicals.
So scalp health would be one audience and then consumers just in general looking to avoid those chemicals.
There has to be a network of hair salons that only source sulfate, paraben, silicone-free products.
There must be ways to find out like if they're trade associations or some way to find out because these need to be in those salons.
Yeah, that's a great idea.
So far I've been going one by one and cold calling one by one retailers can obviously take a lot of time.
So I think that's a great idea to look into some sort of network maybe that has like a list of salons.
I think of Dermalogica which we had on the show maybe six, seven years ago and Jane Warwind on another great episode to listen to and how she really built that brand by being visible in salons.
And over time people saw that brand and that logo and you've got a really nice design.
I think a simple thing you need to do when you get off this call is just to when you get to the site, 20% off.
I see at the bottom here but it's not big.
It's got to pop up right when you open it, 15% off.
I know you and just make that just to get that email list built up and...
And refer a friend, right?
Yeah, and a referral program too is going to help you because your price point is really reasonable.
I mean, these are 25 bucks for one of these shampoos or conditioners.
So if you can create an affiliate...
A loyalty program. A loyalty program.
And that's simple. It's just adding another feature on the website.
Basically if somebody refers somebody else, maybe they get 50% off or maybe that person gets 20% off and the other person gets a credit.
One of the things that I think is so smart about TikTok is that you don't have a budget for advertising, right?
Actually, you don't have a whole lot of cash to spend.
I have shied away from that.
I know you guys are going to tell me I need to probably be on social a little bit more.
It's such a great way to build a brand, right?
Because you're able to explain why this is healthier, more natural, whatever it might be that you're saying.
Yeah, I love that. I'm definitely not the creative person, so all of this advice is perfect for me and I think we need more of a voice behind the brand.
And even if you're just using trending sounds, like if you feel like...
Because I know the feeling of like, oh my gosh, what if you can't find somebody?
You can just use trending sounds in the meantime and then just write like basically what guy said, pick the trending sound, show the hair or whatever and then write something short.
My hair's never been healthier because I'm not using all these terrible chemicals or whatever.
Yeah, that's awesome. I love that.
Ashley Stark, the brand is called Perry.
Thank you guys so much. So good to talk to you guys.
Congrats. It's awesome.
Good luck, Ashley. It's going to be amazing.
And I, by the way, I texted my friend earlier who's like over hair for Ulta and asked her for advice and stuff on it.
So she looked it over for you.
Maureen, this is amazing.
Just online. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Thank you so much. I love that.
Amazing. Okay. Thanks so much.
Thanks so much, Ashley.
All right, thank you guys.
Wow, that's awesome. That makes me almost want to start a cosmetics line because I will know that you will put in a good word for me.
You're going to call, because you all know them all.
And I'm going to be like, hey, can you call just Sephora and Ulta and just say, hey, guys got this like thing.
I texted her this afternoon.
I was like, hey, I'm going to be on.
And she was like, wait, oh my gosh, I love Guy.
And she's like, of course I'll look this over.
She was like, it's really cool.
She gave a bunch of advice.
She was like, I think that the brand looks great.
It just needs more like BNA testimonials.
Yeah. Yeah. All right, Maureen.
We're going to take another quick break, but when we come back, we'll hear from a caller who lives in the other side of the world about how to grow her career coaching business.
Stay with us. I'm Guy Razz and you're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.
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Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm here with Maureen Kelly, the founder of Tarte Cosmetics.
Maureen, let's bring in our third and final caller.
Hello, caller. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Sure. Thank you. My name is Marcel Yeager, and I'm calling from Vilnius, Lithuania.
I am in the future. My business is Career Valley, which I've had since 2012.
We transform narratives to inspire people to break out of a rut, get a job they love, and significantly improve not only their lives, but the lives of everyone around them.
God, it's like a career coaching service.
Yes. Okay. What's your question?
My question is that we hear from clients all the time that our approach works because it changes their lives and they don't even realize their worth until they go through our process.
I really want to make a leap, like a huge leap forward, and help a lot more people.
Our main thing, our core product really, is our resume and LinkedIn package.
That's our most successful.
My main question is, how can I reach more customers who would benefit from that core product?
Got it. Okay. We're going to get your question in a sec.
A few questions that I have and Maureen may have too.
You're in Vilnius, and so tell me about how your business, your company works.
You're basically, you're consulting, you help consult people.
Is it you? Do you have a team?
Is it just you? How does it work?
Yeah. I actually started the business to make it portable because with my husband's job, it takes us around the world.
Every three years, usually, we move somewhere new.
My team are actually also people with disrupted careers like me, and they are, we have a team that is on four continents now.
Wow. That's so cool. You've got this remote team of consultants, and the main business model is, you offer consulting services and people pay one time fee, and there's three different tiers, I'm saying.
Is that your main, the main model?
Exactly. Those are our main packages.
We have three on the site, and that's what people come to us for.
I never thought of us as career coaches, really, because it's building the products.
It's reshaping cover letters, resumes, LinkedIn profiles, helping with interviews.
What clients tell us is that we are career coaches, even though we don't do traditional assessments and things like other companies and coaches might.
It's a little bit different.
They come away with a product, but through the process, it's super customized.
We ask customized questions.
We interview them, basically, and through a consultation, and then build the products from there.
Basically, you are helping to build, help people build their brand when they're looking to for a job, for a new job.
100%. Yep. Exactly. You said it.
Maureen, any questions about Marcel's business before we dive into her question?
You're saying that the number one would be people that are looking to change careers completely?
It's not always completely.
Sometimes it's like they know they should be in a higher level position, or people around them tell them.
I think it's career changers, but actually, most of the time, it's people trying to get to the next level or just get promoted within their current company, helping them brand a position themselves, see themselves in a totally different way, really.
If somebody buys one of your packages, depending on the package, they go through a personal conversation with one of the partners and the team, and they also get advice on redoing their resume and their LinkedIn profile, and also maybe some coaching for interviews and things like that.
We actually do, we give them a custom questionnaire.
From there, we have this one-hour interview, but it's more like digging more into their background, into their answers to this questionnaire.
Then from there is where we build everything for them, basically.
Of course, they give us their feedback and we make edits and stuff, but it really is us doing it for them because we tried the other way where it's like we just advise you on what you have, but then we realized people hate writing resumes.
It's a huge pain point, and so we decided we should do it for them.
Have you thought about creating a package for college seniors?
Yeah. I love that. My team was pushing me because some of them have kids that are at that age.
We developed this entry-level package just a few months ago to launch for Spring, and we've seen some success with that.
I think the hesitation there is like, it's going to be the parents paying for it.
Sometimes... Yeah. But it could also be a little bit more of a volume game.
I would use maybe even Indeed, Twitter to post success stories.
You don't have to say people's names, but just so happy to have gotten so and so hired in social media marketing at Cosmetica Company.
Here's how we did it and then let people engage in these discussions, and then you can use SEO strategies.
I think I, and I were talking about this earlier, I know it's like a little bit of a...
People still think of it as like an older thing, but sometimes the oldies are the goodies, and we look at it as our number two or number three revenue driver for us within digital marketing.
I want to see more of that more visible about people whose lives were transformed by what you do.
Storytelling. Yeah. I want to see more of that.
I think also one of the things that is interesting is, I noticed that you are, and this reminds me a little bit of policy genius, which is a story we told on the show a couple years ago.
They would basically, policy genius makes it easy for you to get an insurance policy, but really the way they market is just by tons of content.
They spend money on writers and have an editorial team that just churns out stuff around about insurance.
You guys are doing some of that.
I see you've got a blog, you've got a podcast.
It's called Career... Can I say this word?
CareerBs. That is your B-I-T-C-H-E-S's.
You cut through the workplace BS, as you say, in the description.
It seems like you're doing some interesting things around content marketing.
What I would say is do more.
I'm seeing one post every couple of weeks, but really what works, I think, in content marketing is a lot of content, regular content.
Consistency. I follow someone on TikTok that talks about how to get a job.
I started TART 25 years ago.
I'm the CEO and founder.
Why do I follow that person?
I just find it really interesting.
It's kind of ridiculous that I follow them, but I think that's what Guy is saying.
If you do the storytelling and you produce this really interesting thought leadership, also put it on the website and maybe even gate it.
I don't know. Let users read the first few paragraphs and then add a firewall that requires people to pay for the good stuff.
That's a good idea. Yeah.
Like a membership type of thing.
Yeah. That's a really good idea.
That doesn't have to be a lot of money, but...
I also think that there's a cool opportunity to think about a membership service where you get not just one call, but if you're a member, you get access to maybe this team of people you have, you host like what we're doing now, what me and Maureen are doing now.
You host a Q&A session or you basically have these private conversations around specific questions, specific challenges.
You bring other people together.
Some kind of network opportunity could be cool.
Maybe there's some kind of network portal that you can create on here for people to exchange ideas.
I think that the content marketing that you're doing is really interesting.
I would just lean more heavily into that.
Yeah. Maybe create an email marketing ongoing campaign from it.
Like I is trying to get people onto your website and then to stay on your website.
That's I think what you want to think about because the way your business is, you bring someone in and your job is to put them back into the world, but with some of this gated content or even follow-up stuff, you would also be able to keep them.
This is a different industry entirely, but we did an episode on Pramilk and I keep going talking about episodes of our show, not to promote how I built this, but just because I...
Hopefully our episodes are helpful and the show is free and we want people to listen.
Oh, I'd say they're helpful.
Hopefully benefit. Great.
Thank you. Yeah. I agree.
We did Pramilk kitchen a couple months ago.
Mark Sisson started this brand.
I love this story because he started it in his mid-50s.
He was an older first-time entrepreneur.
Well, not first-time, but he was an older entrepreneur.
The way he built this brand was by becoming an obsessive, regular daily blogger.
Now, this was at a different time when blogging was relatively new, wasn't it?
2000, late 2010s, right?
But he was blogging about Paleo diets and people would eventually discover that.
Eventually, it started with 100 and then a few thousand and eventually over 10,000, 20,000 people.
He launched that brand through people who would come to his site and read about interesting things around Paleo diets.
You have an expertise around how to get a job, how to navigate the workplace.
I think even if you're repeating ideas that you've already talked about, you can do it in an interesting way, but I think you've got to be really disciplined about getting two, three pieces of content out of a week.
Okay. On to the blog. Yes.
And then pushing it from there, like on LinkedIn and other platforms.
LinkedIn and Twitter. Indeed.
And everywhere. Okay. That's good to know because I used to write regularly for publications in the past and then that was years ago, right, when the business was still smaller and I felt like not much was coming from that in terms of lead generation.
So I'm wondering if that's kind of what held me back from doing more content creation of my own.
I think some of it is intangible.
It's like it may not directly result in lead generations right away, but it's just having that content out there is really helpful because you just never know who's going to come across it.
The other thing is just writing a lot and putting out a lot of content sharpens your writing and then it creates a body of work that who knows, maybe one day you want to write a book based on it.
I mean, you should be going anytime there's a conference.
I'm sure there's conferences in Vilnius.
If you can travel around Europe, these conferences, they need speakers all the time that they don't have to pay.
And if you can get up on stage and talk about career and how to think about career, it's another way to drive people back.
I mean, these are all incremental, but all of that adds up over time.
And sets you up as the expert in your industry.
Yeah, it sets you up at the entry level.
So the writing sets your website up for the search engine optimization for the crawlers to find and pushes you up in search.
And lead into the college grads because it's a whole segment that needs career coaching and a resume for the first time and a LinkedIn profile and it's a great way to get a customer for life.
They're going to come back to you again and again.
And it's a time when people are looking to gift kids something.
Yes. Marketed that way.
Marcel, marketed as a college graduation gift.
Gift. Love that so much.
Yes. Yeah, right. It's the perfect gift because who wants them living on the couch for five years, right?
Yeah. You could have just put it out there regular and like kids may or may not, kids college kids may or may not stumble upon it.
But if parents come across it and you're marketing it as this college graduation gift, night and day.
Yeah. I mean, you can start with a question.
You can start with like a question on the website.
So you've studied operatic theory.
Now what? That is nice. I love that you pulled that out of all the examples.
I love it. No, but seriously, there are things, like there are really some cool things you can do.
And I think that, again, putting yourself out there, going to conferences, becoming an expert, making content, being disciplined, three piece of content a week, and you're not going to be able to measure it right away.
But at some point, it's going to pay off.
Some book or somebody's going to, some podcast, somebody's going to find it.
You've got a podcast. You got to go put yourself out there and become the expert.
You've got content. You can write, make books.
You can write all kinds of things.
Thank you for giving me that push because I know these are all things that I've thought of before, but not, you know, you're always, I always talk myself out of them and think it's not going to reach the right audience, but I can totally see that because, you know, I've gone to conferences before and then five years later, somebody emails and says, I want to work with you.
Yeah. There you go. Okay.
All right. The company, the brand is Career Valley, Marcel Yeager.
Thanks. Thanks so much for calling.
Thank you both so much in letting me share Career Valley with you.
Thanks Marcel. All right.
Awesome. So, Maureen, I think we should, we should just change our fee structure here.
I'm going to do, right? So fun.
I'm thinking what? Oh my gosh.
Face to face. This is so fun.
At least 1500 bucks per call.
Seriously. We're going to create a gated, you know, gated community.
We're going to do this. All right.
I'll start writing the marketing.
I'm going to start writing the content.
I'm going to do the content marketing.
Oh my gosh. Just, yeah. So fun, right?
I feel like I just hope they do it all.
Can you, if you, this is a version of a question that I get asked a lot and I know you get asked this a lot and I may even have asked you on the show, but it is a good question and I do think it's worth asking.
So I'm going to ask you the question again that you've been asked for, which is if you could go back now, you know, to the 20-something Maureen, Kelly, but you can't say, don't worry, it's going to be okay, but it's got to be actionable advice.
What's a piece of advice you'd give her?
Oh, that's good. I would say embrace failure as a lesson.
Yeah. Understand that it's not the opposite of success, it's part of success.
It's a path on the pathway to success.
You got to stumble a little bit.
Yeah. Or a lot of it. You set back is going to be an opportunity to like grow and adapt.
That's right. That's great.
Great advice. Yeah, failure is critical.
You have to fail. Where is that back?
Is it set up or come back?
It sucks. And it sucks every time.
It sucks every single time and every time I have failed and I'm sure you agree with me on this.
It happened for a reason and then you reflect on it like a few years later and like, God, I'm so grateful for that failure because I wouldn't be where I am now if that failure didn't put me on this detour.
Yeah. It never feels like it when it's happening, right?
But you just got to get it back up and keep moving.
All right. Cool. Maureen Kelly, thank you so much for coming back on How I Built This for coming onto the advice line for the first time.
I love this so much. So fun.
Will you come back? Oh my gosh.
Yes. Yes. Yes. All right.
Amazing. We're going to have you back.
This is the best. And by the way, if you haven't heard Maureen's episode, Tar Cosmetic Story, go back, check it out.
It's just scroll down to our podcast queue.
We'll put a link in the show notes in the podcast description.
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And thanks. We'll see you back here next week.
This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramteen Ereblewe.
It was edited by John Isabella.
Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.
I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built This Lab.
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