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Hey everyone, it's Guy here.
So our team is taking a little time off for Thanksgiving.
So we're bringing you one from the archives this week.
It's the Advice Line with Cliff Bar founder Gary Erickson.
Gary was first on the show way back in 2016.
And he told us about how he was trying to make a cookie without butter, sugar, or oil.
And the result was Clif Bar, an energy bar named after his dad.
And it became one of the most popular energy bars in the US.
So popular in fact, that Gary later sold Cliff Bar for nearly $3 billion in 2022.
Gary came back to the show as one of our very first Advice Line guests earlier this year.
And he was the perfect person for this episode.
Be sure to stick around to the very end because we have a few updates about some of our callers.
But for now, enjoy the show.
Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
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All right, let's get to it.
With me this week, one of our very first guests on the show, Gary Erickson, founder of Cliff Barre.
Gary Erickson, welcome back to the show.
It's so awesome to have you back.
Thank you, Guy. So Gary, when you were on the show, you and your partner Kit were still the owners of Cliff Barre at the time.
Though your employees also owned a significant chunk.
And in 2022, after 30 years, you sold it.
And I know that in that time, over those 30 years, you guys filled the tons of acquisition offers.
You even had to fight some of them off.
And in fact, I think listeners who remember, who heard your episode, remember quite an emotional moment in our conversation when you talked about walking away the first time you had an acquisition offer.
And you had to come up with the money to buy out your first partner.
Yeah, I still have now in the nightmares of what if I would have sold the company in 2000.
That was after only eight years in business, which is a long time.
But I can't even describe the exponential growth and good things we were able to pull off over the next, what, 22 years.
And if we would have sold it, yeah, I'd be fine.
I'm happy anyway. I'm happy living in a garage, which I do now.
Which is your bikes.
That's right. Which I did before I met my wife.
And I'm just so thankful that we escaped that moment and went with the gut reaction and the heart.
And both of us decided, this is what we're going to do.
And we did it for 22 more years.
And you turned it into one of the biggest energy bar brands on earth.
One of the things that I love about how you started Cliff Bar was that initially you focused on a community of people that you were a part of, in your case, was cyclists.
You are an avid cyclist.
You go, I know you do these long cycling trips to Europe and Italy multiple times a year.
You started by getting the product into their hands, into cyclists' hands.
Was that critical, do you think, to Cliff Bar's eventual success?
It was the path to success, for sure.
Many ways to say that, but that's how I feel right now.
I think the two sports that I was deeply involved in were, well, three, actually.
Cycling, I did some triathlons before that.
And then I climbed since.
At that point, I was about into 20 years of climbing.
And so I went to each of those groups and would just pass out bars.
And I knew I had Tiger by the Tail when I was able to go to multiple, like either climbing crags or bike races or whatever, and just literally hand out the bars out of my car.
And for free, just like, take this.
And their reaction sold it to me.
And then from there on, it was just, as I say, hang on to the reins from year one to...
We never did not grow for 30 years.
And what started out with a small group of people, cyclists, triathletes, climbers eventually became a mass consumer product with moms and kids and people on the go and people going to the gym and people just getting some energy.
I mean, so... But it really...
I mean, it's interesting because so...
I think a lot of really great products start that way.
They find a small narrow group of people who love it.
And then from there, that group helps to grow it out into something bigger.
You have to have that foundation first.
And then from there, you go out.
If you're going to try to go mass market, you'd have to have so much funding to be able to do that.
And chances are it's not going to work, because you've got to build that base.
Yeah. Well, Gary, so you ready to take a call?
Yes, let's go. All right, let's go.
First caller on the line, I think it's James.
James, are you there?
I am here. James, introduce yourself.
Tell us the name of your businesses and where you live.
I'm calling in from LA, Los Angeles, actually from the Tech Stars Accelerator Program Podcast Studio.
I'm representing Stope Plastics and Opolis Optics.
We transform ocean waste plastic into sustainable performance plastic.
And we're making everything from adventure gear to luxury hard goods.
And tell me what your question is for us.
Yeah, sure. How did you cut through the noise when building Cliff Bar and effectively communicate your products' unique benefits in a way that resonated with consumers and made them choose your product over the competition?
All right, we're going to get to your question and to Gary's answers in a moment.
But if you don't mind, indulge me.
I have some questions for you first.
Sure. So your company is called Stoked Plastics.
Correct. And you basically use recycled plastics to make things like sunglasses and ski goggles.
Is that right? Yeah, so our specific or unique niche is that we use water bottles, ocean bound and ocean found.
Okay. So just to be clear, you've got Stoked Plastics, which is the technology company that makes this recycled material.
And then you create a separate brand called Opolis, which makes sunglasses and ski goggles using the Stoked Plastics technology.
Correct. And we started off making sunglasses and goggles.
But now we're doing prototypes for buckles and trims and coolers and really anything that uses a high density of our pet or PET in manufacturing.
Yeah, and now I'm understanding a little bit more.
So when you look 10 years from now, is Stoked Plastics the material supplier of this great plastic that you're providing?
Is that going to be 98 % of the business?
And Opolis is there as a kind of grounding thing or signature or the other way around?
So Opolis Optics at this point is almost our proof of concept for Stoked Plastics about the capabilities that we have through our IP.
But essentially, we would love to replace all virgin pet with our Stoked Plastics IP.
For us, and we want companies and brands to be able to use our Stoked Plastics in their manufacturing and have our icon right there.
So when consumers are shopping, they know that it's affiliated with sustainability, circularity, and performance.
It's a really interesting idea because it's your vertically integrated business from the get -go.
I mean, you manufacture your own material, and then you make your own products.
And essentially, what you're saying is by showing how it can be used in your products, the hope is that other brands will just buy Stoked Plastics.
You will continue to make sunglasses and ski goggles, but really, it's the plastic material that you'd like everyone to use.
Yeah, that's the impact.
That's the change that we want to kind of motivate.
When we first came up with the IP, you guys, no one wanted to touch us.
I was a former US government contractor.
We didn't really have a foot in the door in the outdoor industry.
So we're like, look, no one's gonna buy it.
Let's go create our own product and see how it resonates within the outdoor space and beyond.
I'll put on my finance hat.
Cost of goods, a pound of your Stoked Plastic versus your same use for same sunglasses or whatever.
Sure, that's a great question, and one we get a lot.
So, yeah, comparative to the ARPET that you can currently buy on the market, ours is about 10 % more than that.
But because of our high recyclability grade, and economies of scale, we can hit ESG targets a lot quicker for companies that are trying to meet those targets.
Here's an off -the -cuff idea, thinking about that idea.
So I think in food, organic is Stoked Plastics.
Like, look, it's a really hard time sometimes to convince the CFO of company to buy, but if you could build this to be like the organic of plastic, then...
That's where you can justify the price point.
Yeah, because you've got to justify the price point.
No, I like that spin on just using organic because that makes people feel good and they know they're paying more money.
Yeah, and it's a certification.
Oh, yeah, of course.
Yeah. James, just like curiosity, have sales been so far?
Well, I'll just say this, we've got enough sales where funds and investors are interested in us.
I can't make a livelihood off of it.
Not yet, yeah. Not yet, but after four years of spending a lot of money, and this kind of goes into my question to Gary, on educating the marketplace on the difference between what we're putting in our sunglasses and goggles and what others are not.
And that is just, as you guys know, it's just been this huge PR and marketing effort that is time intensive and expensive.
So, your question was about breaking through, right?
And your question for Gary is why should somebody eat a Clif Bar versus a competitor snack?
Which you're trying to figure out, how do we get people to get educated on what we're offering?
Gary, where do you, where would you even start?
No, boy, this tough one has changed over the last 30 years.
It's changed so much.
I'll start with our story.
You know, in 1992, it was really only Power Bar and a few bars had come out during that time, but they were kind of like, they took the Power Bar ingredients and they added, you know, a little more vanilla or they, you know, a little more peanut butter or something.
We created a completely different product.
Okay, and you're kind of like that and you're kind of not.
There's so many sunglass companies, I don't have to tell you.
And there's some beautiful designs out there in all these companies, but you know, what is the difference?
And we had this radically, we had to educate people that it is an energy bar, it just tastes better.
And so we sampled a lot, which was, that was instant sale, but you can't get to everybody.
So we had some print ads and we did a print ad called It's Your Body You Decide, and it was going directly after Power Bar.
And in five days, we had a lawsuit against Power Bar.
They sued you guys, but that lawsuit actually was a blessing in disguise, right?
Gary, because it got you all this attention.
You took the words out of my story.
Sorry, yeah, sorry.
No, I'm glad you did, because it's so it's, people don't realize that sometimes it might be what you want.
And, you know, so I, and I think people are afraid to attack competition.
So, you know, my question back to you would be like, do you pick the number one competitor that you can grab or do you do them all together?
And, you know, do you go after them and create a super aggressive campaign that gets you PR?
Because back then there was no PR, as per se, but it was usually, oh, in, in a retail magazine, or a trade magazine, you know, Cliff Bar gets sued by Power Bar.
We're like, thank you.
And guys, right? Like, then all these bike shops are like, well, let's just try it.
I mean, gosh, and they did, we had 700 accounts in like months.
And our goal, this sounds very aggressive, but our goal is to put them out of business.
And for the first 10 to 15 years, our people were like, we are going to just go after their market share everywhere we could.
And so that's how you tell people you're different.
You've got to show the difference between what everybody's doing, you're not doing, and that you can't be bashful or shy about it.
You got to, that's my opinion.
Yeah. You know what's kind of cool is like you could have, you could basically take a competitor's sunglasses and just show a pile of plastic and say, this becomes this.
Yeah. I like that. Something like that.
That's amazing. Yeah, Guy.
Madison Avenue here.
You took the design right out of my head, our heads.
We're looking for some marketing, Guy.
That's exactly. Call my 800 number.
And Gary, how important is like athlete influencer association with, with, brand voice, brand identity?
It was, it was in our mix always.
And we still have, you know, world -class athletes with cliff bar stickers on their helmets and like ski racing.
You know, you're, you're in the skiing because I saw your goggles, you know, Bryce Bennett, who won a world cup race this year, he gets in the start line and you see this big red sticker and then he crosses the finish line and he wins and he literally points to the cliff bar sticker on his helmet.
Like, holy crap, that is worth so much.
Doesn't get better than that, does it?
It doesn't get better than that.
And so I, 100 % without having to go on and on about it, yes, we've, we've always had athletes from day one endorsing our product and they're super legit.
They're not just celebrities who, you know, look good and, you know, they, they could choose anything, but these people used our product for function and for quality and for, and believing in our story.
I think that's a key point, Gary, is that there will be some consumers who are attracted to, to the, the story and the recycled aspect of it.
But I think most people are going to want to know about the function.
They're going to want to know why this is better.
And I think this, that having an athlete, having a, you know, I think like an Alex Honnold or an outdoor person, you know, somebody or a Michaela Schiffer and wearing the ski goggles.
I'm not, you know, they're probably already, but, but, but you know, you think about, you think about the shoe brand on, right?
Which were, we're going to tell that story in the show.
I mean, the Roger Federer supercharged that brand because all of a sudden Roger Federer is wearing ons and people are like, what is that Roger Federer?
They must be amazing.
People need to understand.
Because the majority of people are going to buy it because they look good and they're functional, not because they're recycled.
And I promise to do this.
I'm going to get some, but I'm paying retail, buddy.
I'm going online and that's my, that's my gig.
I pay retail. That's fine with me.
I pay retail. That's fine with me.
Hey, Gary Erickson wearing Opelis.
That's, that's a big deal.
That's a huge deal.
A lot of people are going to be like, what is Gary wearing?
Okay. I just resigned from the World Cup, so I don't think.
Up there with how I built this and Gary Erickson wearing our, our eye wear, that would be cool.
James, thank you so much for calling in.
Good luck. We're going to be following your progress and, and we'll catch up with you.
Maybe you'll be back on the show.
I hope so. You guys, Guy, I've been listening to you two for four years.
You've gotten me through a lot of ups and downs and Gary, you've gotten me through a lot of hikes, snowboard trips, surf trips through your bars.
I really appreciate the time and thoughts.
James, thanks a lot and I hope we get to catch up more.
I'd like to, you know, catch up one -on -one if we can someday, just to check it out.
I'd love that. Thank you guys.
All right. Take care.
Gary, I mean, this is a complex business, but I think the idea of producing the material and turning it into products is a kind of a cool idea.
It's super innovative.
I mean, he's gone from zero to vertically integrating his business, like right away.
Yeah. There are a lot of ingredients and materials out there that are like what he's doing, but they're more purely functional, like a better plastic or a better Kevlar, for example, or carbon fiber, you know, radically changed the bike industry.
But there's no patent on carbon fiber and everybody's doing carbon fiber.
So I think he's got the advantage if they can get the IP on that.
It's got to be functional.
It looks like it is very functional.
At the same time, it's got that property that, you know, where everything is moving towards more sustainable.
Yeah, totally. Gary, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, a co -op of artisans competing with giants like Etsy, stay with us.
I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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Hey, before we get back to the show, we want to share this call that we got from a listener about a pretty funny encounter with Cliff Bar and a competitor.
Hi, my name is Brad Chiss and I'm open to the interview right now with Gary from Cliff Bar.
And I have a very relevant story that I just wanted to tell him very quickly.
I was working in a bike shop in the last Utah on the 1990 B.
Two or three in Power Bar was the only option really.
And I remember all of a sudden Cliff Bar showed up on the scene and one guy walked in and I thought he was a customer.
And he goes and looks at our energy bar display and I point him over to the Cliff Bar and I'm like you got to try these.
They're so much better than Power Bars.
You know, and I started trying to even back my house and Power Bar a little bit and was raving about Cliff Bar and he just kind of like okay picks it in.
He walks out and when I look out the window he got into a Power Bar van and left and he was the Power Bar rep.
Brad, thanks so much for sharing your story and thanks so much for listening to the show and let's get back to the episode.
Hey, welcome back to The Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Roz and I'm with Gary Erickson.
So Gary, market share is obviously super important, right?
Especially in a crowded space.
And as more and more competitors started to get into the energy bar space, how were you able to fend off the competition and stay ahead?
Like what were some of the strategies that worked?
I would argue that we were built through grassroots marketing.
You know, we did some print ads at the beginning, which did put us on the map.
But Kit and I would fly all over the country and be cutting up bars and thousands of pieces of bars just at these marathons.
And it was so hard and then we started hiring people to do that for us.
We had a team of 25 people around the country and then they had local people that they would hire for the weekend events.
And I really think that's what put us on the map.
But our product was inexpensive enough where we could actually give out whole bars and they could experience that and then the next thing you know they're buying 12, 24 and 100s and we built a lot of loyal, I mean, we have such loyalty with a small group of people that buy the majority of our product.
Yeah. Okay. Let's get another call in.
What do you think? All right.
What do you say? Another one?
Okay. Valerie is on the line.
Hello, Valerie? Hello, hello.
Welcome to the show.
Please introduce yourself.
Tell us your first and last name, what the name of your business is and where you live.
My name is Valerie Franklin and I'm representing Artisans Cooperative and I'm calling in from the beautiful North Oregon coast.
Nice. Oh, this is a beautiful place.
Okay. And what's your question?
So we have almost no funds but a strong bottom up community ownership.
How do we break into a market space that is filled with giants like Etsy and Amazon?
Those are giants. Okay.
We've certainly told the Etsy story on the show.
First of all, tell us a little bit about your business, about Artisans Cooperative.
What is it? What do you do?
Yeah. Artisans Cooperative is a co -op alternative to Etsy.
We're growing an online handmade marketplace for crafters, makers and artists owned and managed by the people who love it as a cooperatively owned business.
I'm looking at the website now.
And so first of all, what's the problem with Etsy?
Because it seems like you are really competing with Etsy, but what prompted you to start this?
Well, it's easiest for me to answer in some ways from a personal point of view, because I'm one half of a leather crafting business, a small husband and wife leather crafting business that we started on Etsy in 2009.
So we know Etsy very well and we're still on Etsy.
And they are a great option to have in your portfolio as a small artist or maker.
But over the years, they've changed a lot.
Starting in, I think 2012, they started growing much bigger.
2015, they went through an IPO and sellers started becoming, I would say the product as much as the offering the way that Etsy's making revenue.
So this all really got started when they increased their fees a second time by 30 % in 2022.
And they announced that fee increase in the same week that they announced record profits.
And that was just something that struck a lot of small makers and artists who rely on this income, struck a nerve.
And so it spontaneously organized into a protest online through social media, which is how I got involved.
It was called the Etsy strike and thousands of shops took their listings off of the site for a week and protest.
And it actually caught some pretty good mainstream attention, but didn't change the fact that the fees were going up again.
It's at the point where a sales commission might vary anywhere from 10 % to 40 % per sale.
And you won't really know what that is until the sale happens.
And how do you differ from Etsy?
Presumably you're charging much lower fees to your sellers?
Not necessarily. No.
The big difference is that we're owned and operated or we're owned by the members themselves.
So a cooperative is a member owned business that's organized on a principle of one member, one vote.
So we have a multi -stakeholder cooperative, which means that the artisans themselves can be owners of the business and the shoppers or any general supporter can become an owner of the business, which means they get governance rights, they get a vote, and they get to have a say in how things are run.
And they get financial rights so that when we have profits, the dividends are distributed among the people.
How many artisans do you now have involved?
We have a little over 300 members now.
And we have about, I think, 200 shops on our marketplace.
Okay. So Valerie, you brought us this question about you've got, say, almost no funds, but you've got a strong bottom -up community.
How do you break into a marketplace, kind of dominated by Amazon, Etsy, eBay, and other massive retailers?
Gary, you want to take the first crack at this one?
Oh, man, this is a tough one.
Well, you've got a real targeted competitor.
You would call Etsy a competitor, is that correct?
Yes, although we're not necessarily trying to replace Etsy, if we could get the 1 % of artisans who are looking for alternatives and the consumers who are looking for ethical options, I think, you know, that's a great starting place.
So the answer is yes, you're a competitor.
You just don't want to say it.
So, yeah, we used to say that at the beginning when we were at 10 % of their business or 20 % of their business, I'll be set for life, you know, and that would be like, we'd be revenue of a million dollars.
And little did we know that we far surpassed that.
But so yeah, so you could target that, don't be shy about that.
Is there a place where you would feel like if we got here, then we've got momentum and we were able to sustain our business for the long haul.
Like how far are you from there right now?
That's a great question.
And I think that's one of the special challenges we have in trying to build a marketplace is that we're in a bit of a chicken or an egg situation.
We need enough artisans to provide good consumer choice for the shoppers who are coming on.
So they have things to sort through and to find what they're looking for.
But we need enough customers to make it worthwhile for artisans to want to sign up.
And so I hope that we're growing both in step with other in a balanced way.
We're not there yet.
We just started, we launched our beta marketplace with existing tech in October of this year, so six months ago.
And I would say we're probably, you know, at least half of where I'd want to be to start feeling like we were getting there.
And I think about, you know, it's really interesting because we've done a whole series on the show recently about content creators and the business of content creation.
And, you know, 10 years ago was in order to reach mass scale in media, you had to be on CNN or, you know, be at a major media organization today, you can be some dude with a YouTube channel and reach 50 million subscribers, right.
And so what's interesting about how social media platforms work now is that they want to attract all these creators, right.
So for a long time, it was YouTube, they were trying to get onto because YouTube paid the most, and then they went to TikTok.
And now a lot of people are migrating to Snapchat.
Now they all use all of them, but these different platforms offer different incentives.
And now it's getting me to my question for you, which is, is there a world where you could offer an incentive that is so good, you know, like no fees for the first year, or something radical, where that kind of message spreads among crafters, because there are craft fairs all over the country, crafters talk
to each other, you guys have a Discord channel, I see.
Is there some kind of incentive that you are able to offer to bring this critical mass in?
That's a really good question.
I absolutely think that we could come up with such an offer, if we could find the right audience and right moment to share it.
But I do think one of the things we've had a challenge with being on a platform is that we don't have a lot of ways to connect with other artisans, other than at like craft fairs and things like that.
Because places like Etsy control the narrative and control their forums.
But for you to control the narrative, you've got to give your members the tools, you make it easy for them, right?
I mean, you've got 300 members, each of those members is on social media.
I mean, they're not they may not have hundreds of thousands of followers, but they might have hundreds or or 1000s on their social media.
And, and I wonder whether you can leverage your community in a better way to have them promote what you're doing.
I think our members are not only committed, they're literally invested.
Yeah, they're coop member owners, they've invested in this company.
And we're all equal owners of it together.
So it brings up an interesting point that I hadn't fully thought through, which is that, you know, artisans have art, we have people who are just starting their careers, people who are doing it just for fun, and then people like me and my partner who do this full time for a living.
And so everybody comes with it with a different set of skills and a different background.
And, you know, using everybody's strengths where they are makes a lot of sense.
And Valerie, once people come onto your site, for the first time, and maybe they're they buy something, do you got them?
Do they, do they come back?
They're like, wow, I never thought this existed.
This is really different.
And I think I think we've had repeat customers already.
Yeah, I mean, in our six months of operating, I think one of the ways that we try to encourage that is, you know, through email campaigns and trying to make people aware of the variety of things on our platform, everything from wooden coasters to handwoven silk shawls.
You know, there is such a wide variety of products, and that's sort of the treasure hunt of it.
You know, one of the things that I've noticed, I'm going to give you some feedback on this, I know the site's early, it's still in beta form, but it's there's too much, it's too much stuff.
There's joined the member four artisans handmade this, there's all these drop down things.
And what I think Etsy does well, and what I think you could do really well is, they just have pictures of different categories.
And you have some of that.
But Gary, you know, I know Gary is a cyclist.
And is there a world where you've got like, people who love cycling or, you know, you've got clothing and accessories, arts and craft, but could you break that down even further, like beanies, or games, instead of like personal care and leisure, like domino lovers, I mean, you don't have to get like
super, super like micro niche, but you could get kind of niche.
And, you know, I understand you guys don't have massive budgets, but you're working with artists.
I mean, I know you have a lot of talent in your group, to really kind of think a bit more intentionally about the design of the website, to make it a little to make it pop a little bit more, you know what I mean, Gary?
I like that a lot. And I like also that you're, you're trying to move toward something that Etsy isn't doing on their website, or with their product line or whatever is available.
I mean, you know, there, okay, you could go to if you want to differentiate, you know, it could be your headline, you know, you may not find this on Etsy.
Yeah, you may not you want me, you may not want to say, you won't find this because maybe you will, but you could say you may not find this on Etsy that would give them like, well, there maybe there's other stuff on here, I won't find an Etsy.
And because you've got to create that you can't be an Etsy with better values.
Yeah, you got to be Etsy with a different product.
I'm telling you, I agree.
I'm just spitballing here.
But maybe think of a different way of categorizing what you offer.
And you focus on the things that people love or might, you know, be attracted to.
So so here's a question that follows that, I hope perfectly is, how many people come to this and buy a gift versus buying something for themselves?
That's a great question.
I would say so far, more purchases have been personal.
And yet that contradicts my own experience with my own business that when you make these niche things that are perfect for that one person, you know, more a higher percentage of them as gifts.
I also know that Etsy is pushing gifts hard right now.
Okay, that's interesting.
That was their Super Bowl ad.
Is that right? Yes.
But but gifts is, but Gary, you're on gifts is the way to go.
It's the way I mean, if you put it, you might find something for yourself too.
You know, like you go in for like, I go to wherever, wherever and buy a gift for my family or my wife or something.
And then I ended up like, well, this looks I think I want to get this for myself.
Yeah, I mean, there's a lady here who's making knit beanies with like an octopus on it.
I'm seeing that. I'm seeing the chicken and the lemon.
I mean, there's, there's octopus.
There's lots of people have octopuses or for people on the same page, the yellow one, right?
Yeah, yeah, I'm looking, I'm looking for gifts.
I'm looking for a gift for somebody.
And I don't even know where to begin.
You could have a revolving top gifts, top sold gifts.
Yeah. And if you just had like a headline of like, first thing is top 50 gifts.
And because if I'm looking for a gift, I wouldn't know where to start here.
Yeah. And I would like to be led to something.
And I might come back here and be buying gifts all the time.
Yeah, because I'm always searching for a gift for my friends and family.
Valerie, I think there's I think I think we're on to something.
I think we might be on to something.
You have given me so many great ideas and feedback and direction.
And I absolutely loved Gary's point to that gifts are a great add on and a great way to increase our per order amount.
Not look for yourself and also think about other gifts to add on.
You know, and and back to the back to trying to get that message out is wherever you get if you could just say, a gift you may not find on Etsy.
Yeah. Yeah, try that.
Right? Right. Try that.
And you know, Etsy is not going out of business.
They'll be fine. And we love it.
By the way, they've been on the show.
Big fans too. So no, no, no shade Etsy.
Valerie Franklin, Artisans Cooperative.
Thanks for calling in.
Good luck. We'll be watching.
Awesome. I was delighted to be here.
Thank you so much. All the best Valerie.
Great job. Gary, I'm gonna get you a chicken hat.
That's which one I don't know that or the lemon, the big lemon on the side of that knit hat.
I think that one. I think you look good cycling through Italy on your racing bike with that sweet.
I have to put it over the helmet if I can get it over the helmet.
Put it over the helmet.
Yeah. All right, we're gonna take another quick break Gary, but when we come back, an inventor whose fluffy dog gave her a great idea.
Stay with us. I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to the advice line here on how I built this lab.
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Hello and welcome back to the Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Roz. Gary, what do you say?
Should we go ahead and bring in our last caller?
Let's go. All right.
Hello, Elsie, are you there?
Can you hear me? Yes, we can.
Hello, Elsie. Please tell us your name, what your companies call their business and where you live.
Hi, Guy. Hi, Gary. Hey, Elsie.
I'm in Denver, Colorado, and I started my company in the Lily Brush 14 years ago after I invented a pet hair clean out tool that's faster than vacuuming and better than sticky rollers without creating single use waste.
I've since invented four more pet hair clean up products.
And now we have this incredible core group of pet parents and professional cleaners who love our products.
But I'm still struggling with how to scale up our marketing so more people can find us.
Right. Okay. So before we...
So you're looking to figure out how to scale up to get more people to find you, how to do it efficiently.
Before we get there, let me ask you a couple questions.
Lily Brush is... So this is a pet hair remover for any furniture and whatever pet hair.
I am a beloved pet.
I've got two cats and a dog.
So this is a big problem in my house.
We have a lot of pet hair of a one cat that is particularly bushy hair.
Morty is a great cat, but he sheds everywhere.
How is it different than like, I don't know, roller or other pet brush removers?
Oh, let me count the waves.
Please tell us, yes.
Count them out loud.
Okay, I will. So if you have pets that have that very heavy undercoat, that soft fluffy stuff that sheds all year long, we make these fantastic bristle products that you just brush back and forth across the hair.
It picks it all up.
There's no sticky roller waste.
There's no peeling.
And it's faster than vacuuming.
And you just pull the hair out and you just toss it in the...
It stays right on top of the bristles.
And you just, I like to tell people, take the hair outside because birds like to use it for nests.
Wow, that's cool. It's like you're recycling like gems and plastics.
You can go and nest for a bird and then your cat can go and eat the bird.
Oh, oh dear. No. Tell me how you started this business because I see you started in 2010.
What were you, I mean, did you have a different job?
Were you doing something different in your life at that point?
I was. It's kind of one of those crazy stories.
But I used to be a painter.
I was a portrait and still life artist.
And in 2009, I was a single mom and I shoveled a driveway full of snow.
And it caused my widow maker artery to dissect at the family dinner table.
So, wow. After I was very lucky to wake up the next morning.
But I went to reach for a water glass and my hands were shaking.
They were like nervous parakeets.
I'm sure you can hear it in my voice.
I have now a pretty prominent tremor.
And so I knew that morning that my painting career was over.
Wow. So, you know, I've never looked back.
I just I knew I had to find a new career.
I mean, it's an amazing story because you have this, of course, near death experience with the heart attack and it completely changes your trajectory.
I mean, you're a painter.
You need still hands, but you have to develop a tremor and you have to pivot.
But it's like it's so, I mean, it's one of those weird things.
It's like that happened and that as a result of that, you started this thing, right?
Like none of this would have happened without that horrible tragedy.
But it's an amazing kind of turn of events.
That's how my life has always been.
I've had a lot of faith and just follow the lead.
If something happens, you just keep going through it.
I love your website.
It's really clear. It pops.
I like the logo, Lily brush, the red, it pops.
How did you how did you invent this thing?
So I had to go to rehab for my heart and I always wore this polar fleece jacket.
And this little dog, Lily, used to enjoy sitting on the couch with me.
She's an Australian shepherd.
She's a very fluffy dog.
And so I'd go to rehab with all the other 80 -year -olds.
I was only 48 when I happened.
So I'd go and I'd be covered in pet hair.
And it was embarrassing.
So I went to PetSmart and I looked to see if there was anything that would take care of the pet hair.
And all they had was a sticky roller.
And I hate single -use products.
But I wasn't allowed to lift a vacuum.
So I took the sticky roller home and I would carry it with me and roll my fleece.
And I just thought, there's got to be a better way.
And then one day I was scrubbing around the fixtures in my kitchen and Lily happened to jump onto the couch in front of me and she had muddy paws.
So I went over with a toothbrush and I went to wipe the mud off of the couch.
And I noticed that her hair stuck to the bristles.
And I was like, oh, I just, it was like, oh, so I ran upstairs.
I have two sons. I took both their toothbrushes, cut the heads off of them.
And I found this little palm -sized block of wood in the garage and I superglued these three toothbrush heads onto mine as well.
And my kids came home and they found me cleaning the whole house with this little block of wood with toothbrush heads on it.
And I'm sure they thought I had a stroke.
So Elsie, Guy has a question.
I know this is in your head right now, okay.
Did you keep that prototype?
Of course. That's a Smithsonian museum piece.
That is so awesome.
Yeah. So Elsie obviously is coming with a question of how can she scale this?
How can she get the word out?
How can she grow this thing?
She's been doing it since 2010.
Gary, what's your take?
I need, I've got a lot.
This is, I mean, I just got, I'm so inspired by the story, all of it.
So it's awareness and trial.
Now how do you do trial?
Question. Do you, are you in like Petco or any of the, you know, Pet Mart or any of those retailers?
So we're in this, I'm very proud of this.
We're in a container store.
That was our first big company and I, it took me a long time to get there.
We are, we kill it on Amazon.
Even though after like the first year, Alibaba just started pumping out copies, but what we're thinking that are copying ours is that they only last for a week or two.
And I built our products to last for really the lifetime of your pet.
I mean that's the competitive advantage.
Gary makes me think of an episode we did on TRX Straps with Randy Hetrick several years ago, because that happened right away.
All of a sudden, all these copycats and they were poor quality.
But, you know, he spent and still spends a lot of money suing them.
And I know you don't have those kinds of those resources and time and it's a pain.
But I feel like a simple fix is to emphasize what you just said, you know, the original and, you know, best, because I feel like that is, you know, the brand is what was your advantage here, right?
Right. It's a tough one, Guy, because when I first started talking to buyers, they used to kind of laugh at me because they're like, why would you make something that lasts for years and years?
We don't want that.
We want the repurchase.
But the fact that these things last so long has been kind of one of our problems.
I wonder whether they're, you know, I think about partnerships, right?
And I'm increasingly you're seeing collaborations, right with brands.
I'm certainly in apparel Adidas and Gucci or Liquid Death does that's not apparel, but they're doing partnerships with different kinds of brands like grooming, men's grooming, for example.
I wonder if there's a way for you to partner with a product that is associated with cleaning cars, I mean, or carpets, something like that, where they get it, you know, they get it with that product.
I think about that too.
And like a different vacuum, like a Bissell or something like that.
Yeah, that's a great point, Guy.
Yeah, especially a product like Bissell or like a brand like that, that's not, that's probably a little easier to get to the right person there.
It's not an Adidas where there's a bazillion people pitching them.
And I don't think a lot of people are pitching Bissell for collaborations.
It could be kind of cool, right?
Or like, this to me seems like, you know, Slim Jim is at the checkout counter of every convenience store, right?
And like, that's basically, you know, how Slim Jim and now Five Hour Energy is there too.
Like I see this as a product that's at the checkout of every car wash, right?
That would be ideal.
And I do go to the car wash trade show.
And I did the first year I went, I thought it was, I'd made a terrible mistake, because I had this little 10 foot booth.
And I'm in a hall with all these spinning brushes, bright lights, and I sort of timidly went and started doing demos.
And the next thing I knew, my booth was three people deep, just mobbed for three days.
So that's when Gary talks about going and giving away product at bike events, you know, I, that resonates with me because I knew I'd hit something that, but we're still just a little tiny brand.
We're still, you know, they talk on Shark Tank, they talk about the cockroach that people can stomp on.
We're still that little guy.
And it makes me nervous.
It's 14 years in, you know, we're trying so hard, and we're still that little guy.
Well, first off, don't give up.
Okay. I'm in the effort.
Because I think you've got, you have something here.
I wouldn't even, I'm embarrassed that I didn't know your brand before this, because we've had, you've, I've got these sort of sayings about innovation.
So you've solved a problem, Cliff Bar to me solved a problem with a better taste and energy bar.
And you know, you're in, it's inventive.
It's a totally original.
I mean, how can you get more original than using toothbrushes to make the first product?
And it's, it's transformative.
You know, you're, for people that have this issue, we, everybody that has a dog and a cat, pretty much has this issue.
And we all want to solve it, but we just are lazy.
And we just, you know, and it's hard, and you try to vacuum, vacuum doesn't work.
And the roly thing doesn't work.
So there's that. I feel like it's a matter of time.
In some ways, this is the kind of product that if you could get it into the hands of a couple of the celebrities who just have, you know, who post with their pet all the time.
Like I think I don't know if Chrissy Teigen has pets, but I just think of something like that, you know, like Chrissy Teigen, who's like, associated with like cooking and a beautiful house.
And like, you just imagine her like, oh my God, this like, you know, here I am brushing this off with this thing.
I think to get to some of those really high end ones, you've got to incentivize them, you know, you've got to say something like, look, we're trying to scale this.
And, you know, we'd love to partner with you in some way.
I don't know what that would look like.
But to me, it's just a matter of like getting it into getting it to a place where somebody like that, who's a real like lifestyle influencer, gets people excited about it.
Because as Gary said, it's a great product.
It's just a matter of getting it, getting in front of the right eyeballs.
Question, how many people are with you in your company?
There are four of us.
Four people is pretty lean.
Mm hmm. It's tough.
Yeah. So I love Guy's idea of the retail thing, like at the counter.
I mean, we've all bought stuff that when we're in a store like, ah, never, I mean, what's that?
Oh, okay, I'll buy that.
And he may have to bring on a sales person that you've never thought of needing before that can go to the car washes and the Walgreens and, you know, and Fridays, whatever.
Yeah, you know, we bootstrapped it.
So it's been slow growth.
Yeah. But we've got money in the bank.
That's awesome. So I just, I just have to figure out who to hire.
I'm really into giving people a shot.
You know, show me what you got.
And, and do your best.
And let's see. So I get, you know, marketing people from University of Denver.
And they, it was cool, you know, two, three years watching someone develop.
But I think it's time that we go and we find someone who really knows what the heck they're doing.
And, and we do, we do have the money to do that.
I just, honestly, I've, I've done this whole thing.
I've flown by the seat of my pants.
Yeah. This whole time.
It's super impressive.
And, you know, for the, for the record, I think if you can do it self funded, then you control your destiny.
kit and I never took a dime from anybody over 30 years of running cliff bar.
We never brought on an equity partner.
Yeah. I'm Elsie. We're gonna, we're gonna be following you and Lily brush and, and good luck.
Thank you for calling in.
I think you've got something there.
And I think in about six months time from now, if we check in on you again, you will have hired somebody to take the load off and hopefully to start to really do some of that business expansion that you're not able to do because of the other stuff you have to focus on.
I hope so. And, and Guy and Gary, thank you so much.
I just, you guys are my heroes.
Well, you're so cool.
And thank you. And, you know, it's, we're just starting to roll.
So just keep this momentum going with other people and keep this conversation going with other people that can support what we've talked about and take you help you take it up a notch or two or more.
Thank you, Elsie. And we'll be in touch.
All right. Great job.
So I'm ordering one tonight.
You're gonna be saddled with all these products after today, Gary.
I'm solving all kinds of problems.
What's up with all these packages coming to our house?
We're getting ski goggles and I got a brush and and now I've got all this like these crafts.
What's going on? Well, you know, I have like all of our friends have animals.
I'm probably going to order a dozen of these and then pass them around and then tell them to see that's the other way to do it.
You know, this is a word of mouth product.
It's a word of mouth product.
And you could have a brush in every vehicle you've got.
Yeah, every, you know, room you've got.
They're just sitting there because then you don't have to go.
Where's that brush?
It's there everywhere.
Okay. All right. Gary, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Awesome. I'm honored.
Thank you so much. That's Gary Erickson, founder of Clif Bar.
And by the way, if you haven't heard Gary's original How I Built This Episode, you've got to go back and check it out.
It's so fun. You can find a link to it in the podcast description.
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
You know, I remember setting up a little table and standing out there in the aisle with a tray of cut up bars and as people walked by, they tried to try this new energy bar.
And they were like, no, no, no, I've had energy bar.
I don't want to try.
Oh, come on, just try it.
And they try it. And then they would walk along and they wouldn't want to look back.
And it's like because they were gonna, you know, didn't want to embarrass me.
And then they would be chewing and they would turn around and go, come right back and go, what is that?
And by the way, since we first ran this episode, a few cool things have happened for the startup entrepreneurs we talked to.
James's company actually collaborated with an eyewear brand on a pair of snow goggles made entirely with stoked plastics.
And it's now available at REI.
And Elsie, well, back in May, she underwent surgery to correct her tremor and it was a success.
Slowly but surely she is regaining control of her hand and voice against awesome news.
Congrats, Elsie. Thank you, everybody, for listening to the show this week.
If you are working on a business and you would like to be on this show, please send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues and questions or problems that you would like help with.
And please make sure to tell us how to reach you.
You can send us that voice memo at hibt at ID .wondry .com or you can call us 1 -800 -433 -1298 and leave a message there.
And we'll put all of this in the podcast description on your smartphone.
Thanks again. We will see you back here next time.
This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arabluhi.
It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was James Willets.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Neva Grant, Devin Schwartz, Catherine Seifer and Kerry Thompson.
I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to The Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.
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