Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show.
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Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me today are Angie and Dan Bastian, co-founders of Angie's Boom Chicka Popcorn.
Angie and Dan, welcome back to the show.
Thank you, guys.
We're happy to be back.
We first met back in, I think it was 2019.
We sat down in front of a live audience in St.
Paul, Minnesota.
It was so fun.
You told us this crazy story about how you saw an online ad that said make thousands of dollars by popping kettle corn, which sounds so crazy.
Angie, you were a nurse practitioner at the time.
Dan, you were a high school teacher.
You guys were looking to make some extra cash to put away for your kids' college.
And so you bought some kettle court equipment and started selling in parking lots and at Vikings games.
And eventually, somehow...
This becomes a multimillion dollar business.
It's an amazing story.
And for those of you listening who have not heard the original episode of Angie's Boom Chicka Pop, you've got to listen to it.
It's so good.
We'll put a link to it in the show notes.
It's been a while since you were last on the show.
Angie, I think you were still involved with Boom Chicka Pop at the time.
And Dan, I think you had moved on from the brand.
So Angie, what are you still working with the company?
Tell me what's going on.
No, I'm not.
Dan and I started getting involved in some of the things that we were passionate about.
And one of those things was with a nonprofit in Nicaragua working with small shareholder farmers that were producing yuca.
And the CEO there had this vision to create a production plant and to create a product cassava flour.
So he created something called Prospera Foods, which I chaired the board for about five years.
And The funding is now flowing back through into the non-for-profit organization.
And now I'm trying to learn how to retire.
You know, Ange and I, we're still mentoring a lot, mentoring startups, especially in the food industry.
And we kind of get to set our schedule, which has been great.
Yeah.
You know, I'm wondering if you were to start Boom Chicka Pop again today, right?
Or any food brand, right?
Do you think you would have done it differently now if you had to start it again?
I think one of the things that Ange and I have talked about was, you know, we were the 20 hour a day workers, which was not healthy.
It's just it's how I knew how to operate.
Just the pedal down.
Go, go, go.
Make sure we are doing everything we can.
You know, I'm not the smartest guy.
And so I had to make up for it.
Oftentimes, you're really smart.
No, but my point being is some people can operate and work 10 hour days and accomplish maybe what I worked took 20 hours days to do.
And I kind of knew I could outwork, you know, most people and startups.
And and I think both Angie and I probably would have tried to spend more time with each other.
Taking a step back,
For us.
It really did damage to us in the sense of just physically you know our bodies and emotionally and all of that.
And I think you know it's taken a long time for us to kind of get healthy again in every aspect of our lives.
And so that's probably the biggest thing that we would have done differently.
I really appreciate you saying that.
I know we only had an hour and a half live on stage when we did the interview, because normally I'll interview people for longer and we edit it down.
But I do remember you guys talking about that, that grind.
This is the thing.
And I think it's really important to reemphasize this.
I mean, we try and make sure people understand this when they hear our show.
Building a business is really hard.
It's very, very, very hard.
This is not a get rich quick scheme show.
This is a slow, steady grind kind of show.
Good news is you guys are both young.
You've got another, what, 40, maybe 50 years to live?
I hope so, Guy.
We've got kids.
That would be a lot of time.
I mean we could have done a few small tweaks, like Dan was talking about, like just have a dinner together without the phone on the table.
Yeah.
And just turn off the phone.
But we just didn't feel we could turn off the phone.
And honestly, one time, when Dan did turn off the phone, one of our delivery vehicles got into an accident and they were trying to reach him.
So, I mean, it's just that's what business is.
Yeah, fair enough.
All right.
You guys ready to take our first caller?
Let's do it.
Sure.
Let's go.
All right.
Let's bring our first caller.
Hello.
Welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with the founders of Angie's Boob Chicka Pop, Angie and Dan Bastian.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, I'm Michelle Pusateri.
I'm the founder of nana joe's granola, based in san francisco, and we make epically delicious certified organic granola and granola bars that have out of the ordinary flavor combination.
I myself am a trained pastry chef, so that comes into play and it's fresh out of the oven texture, flavor and crunch Awesome.
Welcome to the show, Michelle.
I have seen your products because I'm here in California and I've seen them at Whole Foods and you guys do like sort of paleo granolas, I think, and gluten-free granolas, right.
Am I right about that?
Yeah, you're totally right.
So we do the paleo blends, which are bound together with almond butter.
Nobody else is doing that.
We're all certified organic, and we also have oat blends, and that's how we started.
It's kind of following the evolution of my diet.
Yeah.
Tell me how long you guys have been around.
When did this business start?
So I started in 2010.
And in San Francisco, in the Bay Area?
Yeah.
In San Francisco.
We actually built a manufacturing facility in the dog patch in San Francisco in 2012.
Wow.
So we self manufacture everything.
So you make everything and tell me um where, where you guys are distributed.
Now where is it available?
Yeah, mostly on the West coast.
So all of California. up in the Pacific Northwest, and then some in Texas.
So predominantly West Coast.
Got it.
And tell me a little bit about the business.
How are you guys doing?
And give me your sort of top line numbers.
Yeah, so we're doing well.
I think we're doing well.
We've grown every year.
We're about $2.2 million in sales, so sold a lot of bags of granola.
Yeah, I bet.
Yeah.
And so most of your business is coming through these stores the Whole Foods in California and then the other grocery stores or is most of it coming through the website?
It's 30 percent direct to consumer and then around 65 70 percent wholesale and custom label and retail.
That's really good news.
And you mentioned you're a pastry chef.
So how did this idea come about?
Were you just, you know, 10 years ago or so, were you kind of like, I want to start my own thing?
Well, I had actually started surfing and I was going out trying to surf early mornings at Ocean Beach and I was having coconut yogurt.
I've been dairy free my whole life and I'm also gluten free.
I have celiac, I have colitis, so I really have a strict diet and I was eating like granola that I had bought at the store that was gluten-free, and and my coconut yogurt that I always made.
And I was crashing out and I was like, why am I crashing out mid surf session?
This isn't like fueling me at all.
And so I took a look at the back of the granola bag and in 2010, there wasn't this better for you movement.
There wasn't a lot of natural alternatives to cane sugar and they were packed with sugar.
And I looked at it and one serving had 12 grams of sugar.
And I was like, oh, and then I was like, I'm a trained pastry chef.
Why am I not making my own?
So that's how it came about.
And as the story goes, friends and family loved it.
Wow.
And 12 grams of sugar, for most people, is still not that much, right?
Yeah.
I think you guys have, what, how many grams of sugar do you average in your gorilla?
Three.
Wow.
So you're a tiny amount of sugar.
Yeah.
And you're using, like, you're not using cane sugar.
You're using, what, maple syrup?
We're actually using FarmDirect certified organic maple syrup.
Wow.
We get it from New York.
And just like the flavor combinations and really using the ingredients to sweeten it, like almond butter is naturally sweet.
And just like the seeds and stuff like that can be sweet if they're toasted correctly.
Wow.
All right.
Before we get to bring in Angie and Dan, tell us a little bit about what challenges you're facing and what you're hoping to get help with.
Yeah, so i think you know, after bootstrapping for 15 years, we're definitely at an inflection point.
And how do we decide whether outside capital accelerates our mission or compromises it?
And then, on the turn, how do we find investors who strengthen the business without diluting our values?
I think We're pro-regenerative.
We're pro-keeping our organic certification.
And we care a lot, like Dan and Angie.
We care about our people.
We pay a livable wage in San Francisco.
We just want to make sure that Whoever we partner with is really looking at our mission and our values in the same light and the same eyes that we are.
All right, cool.
Angie, Dan, I want to bring you in.
First of all, thoughts or questions or ideas for Michelle?
Well, congratulations, Michelle.
It took us 10 years to kind of figure it out before we brought investment on.
So we understand the grit and the grind that you've gone through and are continuing to go through.
For us.
We were in a position back in 2010 where we didn't really need investment, but we found a partner that we thought we could work with.
And that would enhance the opportunity for us to scale, because we knew we were at that point of scaling.
And so I mean, for you it's a matter of like when you interview or talk to potential investors.
Your focus is, you know, you don't want to lose the mission of your brand, of your company.
And you can make that decision.
I mean, there are investors out there that might only want to do a minority investment with you, which you control.
I mean, that's what happened with us with Sherbrooke Capital in 2011.
They took a minority position there.
And we ran the company no different than when we did before they came on.
And you might have some other insight on that.
Yeah, yeah.
Again, congratulations.
It's not easy to get to 2.2.
I mean, and to get through COVID.
I mean, it's unbelievable.
And have your own manufacturing.
I just, yay.
Great job, Michelle.
I just want to cheer you on for that.
Yeah, and you know, I think a couple of things.
There are investors out there that want to invest in exactly the set of core values that you highlighted for us.
There are investment groups in institutional money, family offices, angel investors that feel the same way you do about what you value.
And so the first question I have, have you talked to anyone yet?
We have actually.
We've been in a couple of conversations over the years three to be exact where we got close to signing the paperwork and it just it didn't work.
I think one of the things that they came back and said after everything was settled was oh, I think that we're going to actually have to help you, because it was a strategic investor help you a little bit more than we thought.
We're going to take more percentage.
And this was like at the signing table.
And in my mind that was a red flag.
And that was also like, okay, you know, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for everything.
It's not going to be a right fit.
And then another one kind of early on when we were about the million dollar.
Point was like you can't ever do this.
Being certified organic.
And I want to invest in you, but you have to go conventional.
And I said, well, that's not my plan.
I went conventional to certified organic, which is extremely rare and something that I'm really really proud of.
And our product integrity and the way that we make our granola is one of those things that I won't compromise on.
Nor should you.
Thank you.
Yeah, no, I agree.
Yeah.
Michelle, I have a question for you.
Have you thought about alternatives?
Because I'm assuming you want more capital to come in, to scale the brand, to increase distribution, to increase your direct-to-sales channel right,
I mean, you want more money maybe for advertising, for example.
Definitely.
Yeah, for sure.
So money or raising capital sounds like it's important to you.
And do you have sort of a number in mind?
I mean, is it a million?
Is it two million?
Is it around that range?
Is it more or less?
Uh, my, my thought is between a million and a million and a half.
And every time I've talked to somebody who's gotten investment, they're always like go higher.
So I think 2 million is, is where we need to be at.
I, I run everything.
I do sales marketing.
I run the production facility.
We have an operations manager and fulfillment, but I think for us to be able to scale the way that we want to scale, we need more people.
So 2 million would allow us to hire on sales, hire marketing, spend some money on some marketing which we've never done, and also be able to automate.
And I think that's where we're at right now.
We're confined with, you know, my ability to do more 20 hour day club.
Have you explored loans?
Yeah, we have loans.
So we have three working capital loans currently.
Angie Dan, I'm curious to get your thoughts on this idea, because you could try and get some institutional cash which could – listen in this market.
It could be tricky, right.
Even though you guys are doing so well, for many of those institutional investors, you're too small.
But there are plenty of – certainly where you are in the Bay Area – interesting angel investors who have invested in food brands.
In the Bay Area, there's Flower and Water, for example, which is doing quite well.
What's your sense, Angie Dan?
Do you think that the opportunity might be and it's hard work, but might be going to 10 or 15 or 20 or even more angel investors writing 15000 to 50000 checks?
That's a great question.
I wouldn't eliminate any possibility for you if you're really looking at trying to grow.
And the question I have is do you have visibility to a large-scale sale or sales opportunities coming up?
Do you have anything in your back pocket?
Do you have something that's on the horizon?
I do.
Yes, that would be interesting for investors that you could demonstrate hey, this is where we're going.
This is the velocity of we need this cash to get a salesperson in place and some promotional and marketing dollars behind it.
And we need to hone our manufacturing.
Yeah.
Yeah, just Michelle, we were in a very similar position.
I mean, we financed everything on our own up until 10 million.
I mean, we had loans and we had a lot of debt and we...
We went.
You know really, I think around the one million mark is when we went to a bank and got financing to build out our plant.
And that gave us the bandwidth to, you know, when we got tied in with Trader Joe's and Target and Costco, we kind of grew and that opened the door for us. you know, our private equity.
Is there opportunity for you to go back to the bank you know you probably have some collateral with within your plant where it gives you just another year like get to a point where all of a sudden you know you find an opportunity within Target or Costco or or any other big retailer that is going to open the doors and bring awareness to potential investors.
I mean, yeah, definitely, I could for sure.
I think I still have a little bit of wiggle room, but I'll be 55 this year and I'm kind of cognizant of how much debt I incur, because we all know we don't pay ourselves what we should pay ourselves when we're founders.
So.
I think that's something that's top of mind as well.
I have a question for you, Michelle.
You have a lot of experience.
You've been in this business for 15 years, so you know the food business.
I'm sure you've been to trade shows.
I'm sure you know a lot of players in the business.
I wonder whether, even with all of the things you bring to the table, is there a world where You bring someone on as an advisor or consultant who might be retired or looking for their next thing, who may have exited.
Like somebody who worked at Boom Chicka Pop right, who was the executive there, who's kind of looking for the next thing.
Or this was what Justin Gold did with Justin's Nut Butter.
He found somebody who recently left izzy because izzy sold to pepsico and they were looking to do something interesting and that person had you know.
They could just clear the path for distribution.
They had relationships at kroger and albertsons, everywhere.
It's an interesting model.
Have you explored anything like that?
I haven't.
I have a few mentors that have helped me out along the way for sure, actually immensely helped me out.
But I haven't thought about that.
I think that's an excellent, excellent idea.
Cool.
The brand is called Nana Jo's Granola.
Michelle Pusateri, thank you for calling in.
Good luck.
Keep us posted.
Good luck, Michelle.
Good luck.
Great to chat.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Raz.
Stick around.
You're listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
And today I'm taking your calls with Angie and Dan Bastian of Angie's Boom Chicka Pop.
So you guys ready?
What do you say?
Should we bring in our next caller?
Let's do it.
Let's go.
All right, let's bring in our next caller.
Welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with Dan and Angie Bastian, co-founders of Angie's Boom Chicka Pop.
Welcome to the show.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Hello, my name is Gloria Kolb and I'm the co-founder and CEO of Alida, and we're based in Newtown, Connecticut.
So we have Elatone, which is a wearable medical device that treats bladder leaks by strengthening the pelvic floor muscles.
Externally,
And essentially it's doing those Kegel exercises for you, but longer and stronger than you could on your own.
And it gives women back their control and their confidence.
Thank you so much for calling in, Gloria.
Okay, so Elida is the company name and the brand.
The product is called the Elitone.
And forgive me, I mean, I'm a 50-something-year-old man, so I need some help here.
Explain what the product is and how it works and, yeah.
Yeah, so most people don't realize that it's such a big problem, but one out of two women over the age of 50 has some incontinence where, if they sneeze, they exercise, they leak some urine.
Right.
And that's often due, you know, after childbirth.
Just the pelvic floor muscles are weak.
And so how does this product work?
So it's electrical stimulation, and it's placed right on the perennial area.
It's a very easy, wearable, like a thin gel pad goes right on that area.
And then we have a tiny controller that sends the signal.
And it's just very discreet because you could get dressed, walk around the house while you're getting a 20-minute treatment at home.
Wow.
So it's almost like a maxi pad and tightened your muscles, right?
Is that what you're talking about?
Yeah, we're talking about tightening those muscles down there, strengthening and actually giving it a workout.
Okay, I get it now.
Thank you.
I really appreciate you indulging me.
So tell me how this started.
I mean, you must have a background in medicine or medical devices.
I have worked in the healthcare industry and I have a biomedical engineering background, but it really was when I had a nine and a half pound baby girl and then 13 pounds of twins that I started to leak and I was looking for something for myself, and everything I saw on the market I didn't like.
It was vaginal, which meant that you had to lie on your back, lock yourself in a bedroom with this device inside of you for 20 minutes.
And no busy mom has time for that.
And as a biomedical engineer.
My husband and I started the company and we figured we can do a better job.
That's amazing.
And tell me a little bit about how the business is doing.
So it's doing well in that.
You know we got grant funding and so we've hadn't needed to raise a ton of money and we were growing.
We launched right before COVID, which meant that we had to pivot and go from the doctor's offices straight to direct to consumer.
We were growing a hundred percent year over year.
Until last year.
And last year was a little bit of a doozy.
Digital healthcare marketing changed a lot.
And last year was a struggle.
You just stalled.
Sales just stalled.
Yeah.
All right.
Before we dive in further, tell us what your question is for us.
I think I know what it is, but please.
Yeah, so well.
Due to all the changes in the digital marketing, our cost of acquisition has skyrocketed.
And so we are looking for other ways to bring consumers awareness.
And so one of the things we are looking for is referral programs, affiliate programs, but all of the things we've tried doesn't take off because Women hesitate to publicly associate themselves with this condition.
So how do you create authentic word-of-mouth growth in a category that's embarrassing?
Wow, this is such a fascinating question because I think this has the potential to be a massive, massive business, right?
Angie, Dan, please jump in.
Questions, thoughts, ideas for Gloria?
Okay, I want to jump right in because I'm really excited about Gloria and the product that you created because, Thank you.
Because I think your question... hits right at the heart of stigma.
You've got two problems.
One is you're in a new product, new category.
It's not surgery, it's not physical therapy, and it's not internal vaginal treatment.
And so how do you sell in a new category with a new innovative product?
That's the first question.
The second question that is attached to that is how do you overcome stigma?
And stigma is really about education and exposure, proximity, distance to a product.
And I know you have FDA approval and you're over the counter, so...
Your access isn't limited in a sense, but I don't know if there are any regulations around it.
But where it sends me is like what you got to do is expose yourself, your product, to a much larger target market.
Instead of seeing it just like a medical piece of equipment.
I think it's parallel to continuous glucose monitoring.
It's parallel to the Sleep ring.
Like those, two sort of medical devices are in mass markets and you can buy them on Amazon.
I really do think that there is a human health movement where there are women who aren't yet identified with a diagnosis of urinary incontinence, but they are interested in prevention.
They are interested in strengthening their pelvic floor muscles.
And maybe it's not for the purpose of urinary incontinence.
Maybe this product also helps with sexual function and experience.
And that in itself, I would say, hey, get it into many spas and women's retreat clinics.
I'm curious about how you thought about this.
Yeah, so our end game is to be acquired by a medical device company.
However, we have been told by a lot of these strategics that if you go down that sexual route and yes, a lot of people do buy for that reason, but they are not going to be interested in us as an acquisition, so we have to be very careful about that.
But yes, people do buy our product for strengthening and for lots of different reasons.
Uh, we've also been very cautious about where we go on, for example, on amazon.
Uh, we haven't fully put our product there because There's so many competitors that are vaginal or whatever, but they're not FDA.
And so they make all sorts of claims that, as a medical device yeah, we could try to compete with them, but I don't know if we want to go there.
Before I jump in, Dan, do you have any thoughts or things you want to add?
Yeah, I mean my first initial thought and just hearing what Ange is saying and what you're saying, you know, is to embrace the stigma kind of, and going full at the digital marketing piece, whether it's yourself or others, someone else that can really kind of lay it out and do the video, and whether it's TikTok or, you know, Insta or wherever that you can and maybe you've already done this.
We have tried.
And so that's what, like in 2024, we were profitable.
But in 2025, when Meta stopped us from targeting, it became unprofitable.
Well, Kit, Can I just say, then what that calls for is boots on the ground, right?
Like in the gyms, in yoga studios, in medis spas, in places where women are, that you have direct contact with them.
Is that possible?
Absolutely.
So I guess I go back to that we haven't raised a lot of funding.
So we don't have a lot of people to do that.
Is that intentional, Gloria, that you don't want to?
No, that wasn't intentional.
It's just we're in a female founder gets no money, and then women's health get 2 of all healthcare funding.
So I've tried.
I've been trying to raise money these last five years.
It's just been really hard.
I have some thoughts for you.
I think all of these ideas are great ideas.
I have a thought for you about how you are telling your story.
So I'm looking at your website Gloria, and We've been talking about this now for a few minutes, and you've got to go deep into the website to find out about you.
Here on the website, I find out that you have an engineering degree from MIT and Stanford and that you have this incredible background in developing these products and you are a user of this product, presumably.
Yes.
I believe you are the influencer.
You are the face of this.
You are a mom.
Your story of having a 9-pound baby and then 13-pound twins that you told us here.
You've got to go deep into your website to find that.
And I feel like that's got to be the story from the beginning.
I was recently in Chicago and I saw Serena Williams doing ads for –
GLP-1s, right?
And so it would be great if you could find a woman over 45 who is willing to partner with you and who's prominent, to talk about this publicly.
And maybe that could be a strategy find a strategic partner who's sort of a celebrity and respected and could could be public.
But But in the meantime, you're that person.
So I think that you know the challenge was the challenges.
People are not going to like these posts on Instagram, they're not going to tag people or share it publicly.
But if you start to talk about it or think about reframing how you're talking about it with you front and center.
Right.
And then you're going to talk about your story on every podcast you can get on every newsletter.
You can get any like sub stacks that deal with menopause, or that's really where I think you're going to find your audience, because you're the best sales rep for this thing.
That's so good.
I've been told that before, but I just feel like I have no time.
I'm already spending those 80 hour weeks.
Yeah, well, you got to do it.
You have got to be out there.
I know.
That's true.
That's true.
Guy, what you're saying is that if it comes from her, she's also fighting that stigma.
100%.
You're doing it.
Yeah.
I want to go back to this.
You know it's a bit of a risk, but you're sort of at an inflection point where you've got this opportunity.
If you can find the right person, who really wants to partner with you, who has some prominence and is willing to be in addition to you, the face of this thing.
You know, I think about On Shoes, right?
On Shoes.
It really took off once Roger Federer joined that brand and made a very significant strategic investment.
He didn't want to just be a quiet investor.
He wanted to become the face of the brand.
And it really helped to supercharge that brand.
It's one of the biggest running shoe brands in the world now.
That's where I think there's an opportunity if you can find somebody who's like, yeah, I'm in.
I can partner with you and get some equity in this brand.
So you would give...
Equity, right?
Because I always thought it took millions of dollars to get one of those influencers.
If you can find the right person who wants to be a partner with you know, get some equity in this thing.
It'll be worth more than millions.
Many more, much more.
That's true.
Okay.
Point well taken.
It's a great idea.
Elida is the name of the company.
Elitone is a product.
Gloria Kolb, thank you so much for calling in.
Good luck.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, everyone.
Good luck.
All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and my guests today are Angie and Dan Bastian, co-founders of Angie's Boom Chicka Pop Popcorn, and we're taking your calls.
You guys ready for another call?
We are so ready.
Let's do it.
All right, let's bring in our next caller.
Welcome to the advice line.
You're on with the co-founders of Angie's Boom Chicka Pop.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Thanks, Guy.
Great to be here.
My name is Eric Poulin.
I'm based in Sydney, Australia, so down under.
And, along with my wife, I co-founded an organic, gluten-free sports nutrition company called Maple Roo.
Our products are designed for endurance athletes to anyone who wants to stay active.
And now we're seeing strong interest from even the corporate world and the healthcare workers having to do long shifts who want natural energy without stomach issues.
Awesome.
Eric, thanks for calling in.
All right, so tell us exactly what kinds of products you make.
What are you selling?
Yeah, so energy gels, energy waffles, energy drink mix and also what's called gummies or chewies all natural, all gluten-free.
And all made with maple syrup or from maple syrup?
Yeah, hence the name Maple Rue.
So all the research was done in Australia with a local university.
We really wanted to do our research.
So for two years, we spent time researching the product, testing the product.
And then the maple is our partnership with Maple from Canada.
So we combined both to come up with Maple Rue as our name.
So energy products with maple syrup or maple sugar as a center.
Why maple?
Tell me about what you found.
The story is I'm a very active person.
I've done a lot of Ironmans in my life and marathons.
And after one Ironman, I collapsed.
I completely passed out.
And my wife took a picture of me and she said to me the next day, I never want you to do that again.
And she was really worried about me.
And what I realized is it's not that I wasn't trained properly, is that I didn't fuel properly.
So I really found out the hard way of if you don't fuel properly, you could be in real trouble.
So we did my research and I found out that maple syrup was actually a fuel that's easy to digest.
And so I tried it to a point that I even qualified for world championship in the Ironman.
So it worked for me.
And that's when we said we have to do something.
We have to bring this to the market.
Australians see maple syrup as a syrup for their pancakes.
So it's been an educational ride, but the feedback has been very impressive.
Awesome.
All right.
Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?
So, even if it's our first year of sales, we've seen some meaningful traction and strong customer response.
The market is broader than what we anticipated.
Like I said, we thought this would be for endurance athletes, but now we're seeing that corporations are asking us for more information, even hospitals and healthcare.
We've got a bigger target audience than what we expected, but the reality is we are competing against massive, well-funded brands.
So the question is how do we scale in a category dominated by massive brands without compromising the product that got us here and people trust?
Got it.
Okay.
And just before I forget, how much did you guys do in sales last year?
So now this year, just even after first year, we're looking at about a quarter million in forecast.
Amazing.
And mostly direct-to-consumer?
80 direct-to-consumers and we're now slowly adding some retailers and hopefully have our Trader Joe moment, like Dan and Angie.
Right.
All right, Dan, Angie, I want to bring you in with some thoughts or questions or ideas for Eric.
Well, I mean, Eric, congratulations.
It sounds like you found a solution to a major problem kind of in your world of competing.
It sounds familiar to us.
You know, we were a total grassroots team.
Brand company early on.
I mean, we went to fairs, we went to festivals, we went to events to just get it into people's mouths.
And you know, it sounds like you're involved with triathlons, running clubs, different endurance events and stuff like that.
Yeah. how we did it in what's familiar to us.
And I don't know if you've tackled it this way is we were really local.
Like we were local in the state and just organically grew out.
And you know it sounds like Australia.
You know there's that opportunity to tap into people who kind of live their lives like you do.
Have you focused on that?
Yes, absolutely.
So that's a great point.
So we decided to really stay local, focus on local events from run clubs to swim clubs.
And that was our focus.
It's interesting what you said Dan, because I am getting some messages from international companies.
It seems that people want to bring our products to different countries.
And it's that challenge as a startup. to say, do we just stay local?
But then you also want to grow and you've got New Zealand, you've got Singapore, other countries calling us.
But what we decided to do is do local events for the next six to eight months.
We've got over 15 events that we're going to be going, my wife and myself.
Other athletes that tried our products.
They are now offering to come to these events with us because they really believe in the products.
And where are you manufacturing your product?
We manufacture our products in North America and then we ship them to Australia.
So I think that plays a role in how you grow intelligently, because the freight in itself could usurp any profits.
You know if you're shipping all over the world.
If you're manufacturing in North America, are you selling in North America as well?
Yeah, so right now we really want to focus in Australia because that was our key market.
The reality is maple syrup is produced and the one we're using is organic Canadian maple syrup.
So we had to decide, do we ship the maple syrup and manufacture in Australia?
And then it was better for us from a financial standpoint to do all the manufacturing in Canada, all the research in Australia and then sell in Australia.
To start,
So we did look at all the options.
Like I said, we're in our first year, three years if you count the research.
So we're always looking at our options right now to see what would be better for us.
Interesting because kind bars in their first year were made in Australia and sold in North America.
And that really, that was really tough because it was really expensive.
But?
But I would imagine that that shipping maple syrup is more expensive than shipping the finished product right.
Because it's heavier.
You know, I'm looking at your packaging, which is really nice, get the maple leaf on it.
And it's a nice, logo.
But when I go to your website, I'm learning more about what this does.
And you know, if you look at a product like our X bar, what really helped make that product take off was the macros you know it's like, or the simple ingredients.
And a lot of these brands now are saying, you know, 20 grams of protein, three grams of carbs, zero grams of sugar.
On the front of the package.
And it tells me something very simple, very quick.
And I wonder if there's a way to kind of I'm looking at your website here.
It says slow-burning energy.
That's interesting to me, right?
Or clean carbs or the glycemic index or something that signals to – especially to a specialty athlete that this is going to give you fuel for a long time because maple syrup –
It's interesting.
It's a little weird.
It's odd, right?
And that actually is your advantage.
It's not a synthetic product.
It's not lab-grown.
It's from a tree.
And so it could really work to your advantage if you are able to, in very short, simple, maybe just…
Slow-burning energy is just a few quick things right on the front of the package.
Yeah, no, that's a great point.
The number one question we get when we go to events is always how much carbs in your product.
And we're lucky to have 25 to 30 grams, depending on – on the product and made from two ingredients, usually salt and maple syrup.
So I'm trying to educate people.
It's not the number of carbs, it's how many products do you need in order to hit those carbs?
So you're right, Guy, that's a great point.
We should highlight that.
Just on the thing, quick absorption, you know, whatever, right?
If you're running and you're starting to chomp to one of these down and you know it's going to get in your bloodstream within a few minutes, tell me that on the package.
I'm so glad you brought up the packaging guy because I did go to your website too.
And just a small piece of advice is that there is a little bit of a difference when you hand the product to someone at a site in person, because you can explain it to them.
But when you go into retail you're depending on that package to really explain, because you won't be there.
And the other thing that you want to have happen as you go into retail is that when someone looks at your product on shelf, they know all your products are from the same place, the same company.
Like the brand, architecture looks the same on each package so that there isn't confusion.
What you want to do is keep it as simple and clean as possible.
And this is something it took us years to figure out how to do.
But when you make that transition to retail, have somebody just go put it on the shelf.
Like ask somebody that's never seen your product before to tell you what they see when it's on shelf somewhere.
No matter if it's in a nutritional store or a sports specialty store.
You want somebody that doesn't know your product to look at it and give you feedback about what they see.
Yeah no, that's great feedback, because I think that's the biggest challenge we have is, if I'm in front of someone, usually I could convince them and they try it and they love it, but I can't be everywhere.
Well, and I think your question was about how do you scale and maintain your authenticity, right?
And that part of it is, as you go into retail, what you're doing is bringing yourself your passion, your authenticity as a founder together into the buyer's office.
And you're communicating to the buyer, just like you're communicating to us, like why this product is so important.
And you're getting them excited about what they can offer their customers.
And that's a little bit of a different proposition than direct to consumer as you begin to work through retail, if that's the direction you end up going at some point.
And then, once they bring it in, you've got a third-party endorser of your product and then it's your job to make sure that it looks unbelievable on their shelf and that you're communicating clearly to the consumer.
That's their customer.
And you know we just signed up about 20 retailers over the last couple of months and it's 100 repeat business that they've come back and ordered more.
So I think if we, you know, listen to some of the suggestions you've made and improve our packaging, that we could grow definitely from a retail perspective.
I also think when it comes to expanding outside of Australia right now, you know, you're small 160k.
It's great.
It's impressive.
But you want to try and try to grow organically to at least 500k, ideally a million, before you even think about that.
I mean, you want to maximize those DTC subscriptions, right?
You want to maximize that repeat purchase.
You want to get into those specialty stores that you're working on, really deepen the community relationship and presence.
And at that point, once you start to see 500K, a million in sales, that's when I think you have an opportunity to really think about Going outside, going beyond, going to Singapore or going to, you know, Southeast Asia and then maybe beyond.
Yeah, no, that's great.
And we want to grow organically.
But I think, as an entrepreneur and I'm sure others listening to me you know we want to go fast, right?
Because, you know, we get an email from somebody in another country that love our products, that they tried it at a marathon, right?
And you want to say yes to everything.
And I think that's the biggest challenge.
And I have to listen to what you just said, Guy is just to really focus, hit a certain number and then move on.
I mean, Eric, a couple of things.
I mean going fast, like we didn't focus on going fast until we were in our millions, like even 10 million.
It was all about kind of building the base and doing it right and getting customers and you know, taking kind of a step at a time.
I mean, if you have unlimited resources, you can move a lot quicker.
But I think this idea of like locally you have an opportunity to build it up, learn from your mistakes and then, kind of you know, make some decisions about expansion.
I'm just going to challenge you to as you grow and it sounds like you're going to grow because you've got a unique product
And when you begin hiring people to represent you, Your job as the leader and founder of the company will be to teach those people how to represent your product the way that you want, and that they have your voice in their ear when they go out to represent the mission, the vision, the passion, all of it.
And that's where entrepreneurs succeed is when they're able to relay that kind of passion.
And everything that I can feel from you.
That's a great point, yes.
The brand is called Maple Rue.
Eric Poulin, thank you so much for calling in.
Good luck.
Thank you very much.
Good luck, Eric.
Good luck.
Okay, guys, thank you so much for all this amazing advice.
Before I let you go, I want to ask you both the same question, which is if you could go back to when you were first starting this business.
You could say Hey, I'm coming from the future.
I'm going to tell you some, give you some advice.
What do you think you would tell your yourself back then, that you now know?
I mean I think for me, you know, try not to be so reactionary, be a little more forward thinking in the process.
Like I said before, there's benefits and reacting on everything.
But I think you know, with entrepreneurs it's like oftentimes you're either you're paralyzed or you're moving nonstop, you know, and finding that balance between okay, opportunity is here, go at it, strategize a little bit.
I mean, I think taking some time, slowing down a bit and identifying, kind of, what the best options are for you at that given moment would have been beneficial for me in particular.
All right, Angie.
Well, I'd say, yes, you're in survival mode, but you're going to survive.
And it's going to be okay on the other side of it.
And maybe, even though you're in survival mode, just put the phone down for an hour and have dinner and don't talk about work with your family and your kids.
Yeah, I've talked about this before.
I use this device called the Brick.
I break my phone and I cannot use it.
I got to go physically back and scan it to try it.
It's really helpful for me.
Angie and Dan Bastian, thank you guys so much for coming back on the show.
You're welcome.
Thanks for having us.
And what did they say?
Were they eager to lend you the money?
No.
You went to bank after bank and they just said what?
Some were more open to discussing than others.
And, you know, we eventually, uh, found a partner, uh, that worked with us and lent us the money.
And what did you have to, what kind of collateral did you have to buy?
You said you had no collateral.
You know, probably receivables and, uh, Personal guarantees.
Personal guarantees.
Yeah.
Which was our home.
Yeah.
Future earnings.
Everything but the minivan.
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
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This episode was produced by Noor Gill with music composed by Ramtina Rablui.
It was edited by John Isabella.
Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Chris Massini, Catherine Seifer, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line. on how I built this lab.
