You are now listening to The Model Health Show with Shawn Stevenson.
For more, visit themodelhealthshow.com.
Welcome to The Model Health Show.
At a time when the health and fitness industry is hyper-focused on adding more years to your life.
Today, we're going to be focused on adding more life to your years.
And though we may not understand it, we may not even think about this or want to think about this One of the most profound things that we can do to add more life to our years is to understand and to evaluate and to talk about the role of death.
And today's special guest is going to open up this conversation.
And I'm telling you, it changed my life.
I feel so much more value in the minutes that I have that I'm experiencing right now as a result of her work and of this conversation.
It just took it up a thousand more notches.
And today's guest is Bronnie Ware.
And she's the author of the international bestselling memoir, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying.
Read by well over a million people.
And Bronnie is also a renowned speaker.
She's a TEDx speaker.
She's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, the Sunday Times and countless other media outlets.
And she's also a renowned speaker and teacher on the power of courage and living a life without regrets.
Let's dive into this conversation with the amazing Bronnie Ware.
Bronnie, I'm so grateful for you coming to see me today.
It's absolutely my pleasure.
Thank you, Sean.
Yes, yes.
So you know, it's so interesting in our culture that people are uncomfortable or even afraid of talking about death.
Why do you think that is?
Oh, I think.
Well, it's not part of our culture for one.
But We have to face the truth.
If we start talking about death, and that is that our time is limited that perhaps we're chasing the wrong goals.
It means having very honest conversations and it's not an easy subject to talk about, but it's an essential subject because the more we talk about it, the more we can use death as a tool for living and change the way we're living and how we want to approach it.
So, yeah, it's...
It's heartbreaking really that we're in a culture same in Australia as you guys here, that no one wants to talk about it.
And it's to our own detriment that we don't.
I wrote that down.
Use death as a tool for living.
That's just profound in and of itself.
And, you know, here in the US, which people can hear you from Australia.
Yes.
We have this, saying that there's only two things that are guaranteed in this lifetime death and taxes.
Yes, all right, and so it's like it's one of those things that is guaranteed, and yet we don't want to face it, we don't want to look at it, we don't want to talk about it, and i'm grateful for this conversation, just to have this conversation, but also the valuable gifts that were packed within it to make our life more fulfilling, and you had the opportunity to spend time with so many people when they were passing and you know, if you could, can you first of all just share, like how did you get into that work in the first place?
And then what you did was you put together this phenomenal, like, it's one of my favorite books.
Thank you.
And you're just a great storyteller, by the way, which you should know that.
Thank you.
And you know these five lessons that you learned, these five very profound insights and regrets that people have when they're in those moments.
And we could take each of these lessons.
They've already impacted me a great deal, but Let's start with how you got into that work in the first place.
Okay.
I'd done the Aussie thing, backpacking, over in Europe for a while.
And so during that time, I'd looked after an elderly lady as a caregiver, just as a companion.
So I knew that sort of role could exist as a live-in companion.
And I'd come from a banking background and I got to the point where I didn't want to wear high heels or stockings anymore and I didn't want to sell insurance to people, just banking their paycheck.
This is before digital banking.
And so I was looking for a job with heart and something where I didn't have to, I could be myself and I didn't have to be in high heels.
And yeah, so I was also trying to get going as a singer-songwriter, so I didn't want to take on rent or a mortgage or anything like that.
So I took a job as a live-in carer for an elderly lady and she had just come home from hospital and they were expecting her to get better.
And about a week or two into the job, they realised she wasn't getting better.
So she had some tests and that's when they told me that she was dying and said would you like to stay on?
And I just felt like I wouldn't have been called to the job if I wasn't capable of doing it.
And even though I'd never seen a dead body, I'd grown up on a sheep farm, so I'd seen dead animals and that was my reasoning at the time that I could handle it.
But I just trusted that I was meant to be there.
So yeah, I went down to – she was living on Sydney Harbour, so I went down to the harbour and had a bit of a cry and said a big prayer just give me strength to do this.
And I ended up nursing her through her death.
And then, once that happened, the family asked me if I'd stay on and look after the house while they settled the house.
So, I mean, a free house on Sydney Harbour, it's like, okay.
And so then the agency I was working with said I handled it well and did I want to keep going in that direction.
So I said, okay, why not?
And that led to eight years of looking after dying people.
That first one was the only live-in job though.
The rest were live-out jobs.
But eight years in a direction that I absolutely didn't see coming, that I had no qualifications in and that completely transformed my own life.
One of the things that I saw was life was qualifying you for it. right?
This kind of conventional education around it.
And even when you were told even you share this in the book like about getting some certification, a course done or whatever it was like very irrelevant, basically what you were taught and just your level of compassion insight, your ability to tell stories because I'm sure that that was incredibly valuable in those communications and also being able to package up what you learn and to share with other people.
Like you were uniquely qualified to do this.
And that's why this work is so special.
And let's talk about some of these again.
The book is called Top Five Regrets of the Dying.
And the first one is, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself.
And not the life that others expected of me.
Yeah, it came to me from all different patients.
But what happened with the regrets was I started noticing things one here, here and there, and then a similar theme would come up again, and I think I've had this conversation before, like over the eight years.
I think I've had this conversation before, but it would just come from a slightly different angle or or would sprout from a different conversation, and the first person who said it to me was Grace, and she was a gorgeous little, tiny little old lady and And she'd stayed with her husband in a very unhappy marriage.
And it was the sort of generation of what would the neighbours think if I left my husband.
And all she ever wanted to do was do a bus tour around Australia.
And he didn't want to do it.
And then he was admitted into a nursing home.
He got ill, became ill.
And as soon as he was in the nursing home she went off to the travel agents and picked up brochures to sign, to do these bus tours, to do a bus tour.
And then, within about three weeks, she started getting ill, and it was then, like within a week or two, she was diagnosed with stage four terminal lung cancer, and that's when I was called in.
So she actually never left the home again and she had not been a smoker.
He had smoked in the house.
And, as I said, like I was trying to get going as a singer-songwriter and so I was playing my songs to her, And it was during one of those days where she just held my hand really fiercely and said to me you promised me Bronnie, you promised this dying woman that you will always live a life true to yourself, not the life expected of you.
And she was crying and I was crying.
And I did grow close to them because it's one-on-one in the home, eight in the morning till eight at night.
And my job really was as a compassionate listener.
And...
And I promised her in that moment.
But I also promised myself because well, I wouldn't break the promise to Grace.
But I also realized that in witnessing her pain, I knew then, in that moment, that I did not want to get to the end of my life and go through the pain of regret when I still had an opportunity to change the directions I was going and to do the healing I needed to do.
And I think that's one of the beautiful things about facing death and sadly, about witnessing other people's pain at death is, you realize?
Oh okay, no matter how hard it may be to live a life true to myself, it's never going to be as hard as lying on my deathbed with the regret of not having tried.
You know, I think many of us have heard something similar to this, you know, but I don't think there's like a sense of urgency, right.
Why is that?
Like is it just this kind of ignorance that we have?
You know, ignorance is bliss, where we think we have a lot more time.
Is that something you've seen as well that people tend to have like a kind of unusual, abnormal relationship with time, just thinking we have so much?
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, ignorance is bliss in that regard, but then you can never know your potential.
If you, if you don't face the fact that you're on limited time, if you think you've got The rest, you've got decades and decades to go.
You don't know.
And I think it is that people don't realise how fast it goes and that these dreams of one day they take work and it's not a thing that happens overnight.
It's the process of growing into your dreams.
And, yeah, so I think for all of us, we just think we've got plenty of time, we'll get around to it.
Whereas even if we died before we've realised our dreams, at least if we have a go, we know we've done something good for ourselves.
But something I heard often Sean, was when people they'd be in their 80s or 90s and they'd say I cannot believe it's over.
I can't believe I'm an 80 year old.
I can't believe I'm a... a 90-year-old when they still felt like they were 50 or 40 or 50.
And so for us I'm in my 50s, you know for us we can sort of think oh yeah, I've still got another 30, 40 years of good living to do, or whatever.
But you don't know.
People die young.
We don't all live to an old age and some of us are not meant to live forever.
But it's also...
I mean, you're an expert on this.
You don't know how long with your health.
Your health can change overnight as well and take you on a whole different path of healing than what you expected.
So that might take you away from the dreams that you were planning on getting around to one day.
So I think, the more that we can realise we don't have forever, that every single day we live is one day less of our life,
It's absolutely one day less of our life and we'll never get that day back.
The more we can face that somewhat terrifying fact, the more we let go of what other people think of us and the more we develop courage as a superpower.
Because they're going to die.
I'm going to die.
What's it matter how other people perceive us?
It's like, well, I don't want to live with regrets at the end of my life.
I don't want to live with regrets now.
So I'm just going to walk the way that makes the most sense to me.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
This gets me thinking about, you know, we have a weird relationship with time, obviously.
It's just such a strange thing in and of itself.
You know, and time is different depending on where you are.
Even on this planet, time changes slightly.
And just mentally how we relate to time, it's this really interesting phenomenon.
Like when we're younger and your daughter's here with us, by the way, And summers can seem endless.
You know, just like just so much time.
And so it's so fruitful.
There's so many things that you're doing and just so expansive.
You have a lot of time to be bored as well.
And then it just seems like summers just start flying by once you get older.
And the time is still the same.
You're different.
And one of the things that I've kind of uncovered over time and just having you know experts, these conversations and just analyzing things myself is that a big part of that is novelty right.
This is why summers seem so endless and just expansive.
Like your daughter's experience, even of this trip is so big, so broad.
And for many of us, especially when we get older and we have kids, it starts to become about the routine and managing their lives right.
And so what I would encourage people to do is to really really lean more into that novelty for ourselves.
Don't forget about yourself.
And this pairs really nicely with this regret as well.
And make sure that you put novelty on the calendar.
Do something strange, do something unusual, do something different, do something fun and give yourself permission to do it.
It's going to expand the time that you have within that time, if that makes sense.
It makes absolute sense.
We can get very comfortable without spontaneity, whereas spontaneity can totally change our life and gift our life in the best ways.
And a friend of mine is Dr David Hamilton from Scotland and he's very good at untangling the science of the human psyche.
And he says that basically supports exactly what you've just said, that the reason time is so long for children and so short for adults is the newness of of it for children that as adults, it's the familiarity and the routines.
And for children, they've just got their eyes open to newness.
So my daughter, she uses the word excited all the time.
Are you excited to do this?
Are you excited to do that?
And I'll say, oh, I'm looking forward to it.
And she's like, but everything's exciting.
And it's like, yeah, sorry, you're right.
Yeah, it is.
Thank you for that reality check.
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It's really with this book.
It was just.
It's a change in my perception, you know, and a great example actually just happened yesterday with this kind of perception change regarding time.
I took my youngest son.
I picked him up from school, maybe like an hour before school, let out on Monday to take him up to NorCal and which is, you know, one hour flight to go to a basketball game, a Golden State Warriors game, in San Francisco.
And it was riddled with obstacles.
All right.
The flight, I went to a certain airport because it tends to be faster.
Right.
But that didn't happen.
Flight delays.
Then, you know, being able to find our way to like now we can't stop by the hotel to drop our bags.
So now we got to find a place for the bags to go.
Once I got there, you know, the ability to download the tickets, like the tickets wouldn't download.
And once I got the tickets downloaded, then they closed the line to get in.
And I had to go to the other side of this huge stadium, on and on and on, riddled with obstacles, but it was so beautiful once we got there and got settled.
And his eyes are big as, you know, just, and just being able to take it all in.
And then also we had our time together to just, you know, stay at a whatever it was a little like a little loft at this hotel, and And then the next day he went with me for an interview on this amazing show.
And so all of these things happen, all these great food experiences, different restaurants we got to eat at.
And then I got back to my wife yesterday afternoon and I missed her so much, right?
So I'm just sending her messages like, I miss you so.
And she's just been working.
So she has no idea.
She's not thinking hardly anything about me.
And for her, it was just like barely a day.
For me, it felt like five days, right?
In one day, it was like 24 hours.
And that speaks to, again, doing something different.
It expands time.
Yeah.
And it'll be different from the other people around you.
Yeah, exactly.
And you've just had all that newness, all that excitement, all those decisions to make that broke you out of your normal routine.
And there's your good woman just carrying on her day.
And so, yeah, your concept of time is totally shifted.
Yeah.
It's so powerful.
And with this, so this is the first of these.
And so this one was, again, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself.
Now that sounds well and good, but how do we do it?
Do we have any insight on things that we can think about or, you know, questions that we can ask ourselves for us to be mindful of this?
I think what we have to do is tune into.
We have to tune into our heart, which means take away all the other expectations.
So think about what would you do if you had no money worries, no time limits, no concerns about what other people think of you.
How would you spend your time?
And whatever that is, is the seed of the next step.
It doesn't mean that... So you might say, well...
I would just grow a garden.
I'd step away from the world and I'd just grow a garden.
It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to sacrifice everything you've got and just do gardening.
But if you can carve out at least an extra hour or two a week to do that, then you're already starting to live a life true to yourself.
And it's easy to say, I don't have time to do it.
I'll do it when my kids are gone or when I've got enough money.
But this is one of the mistakes that people make is always thinking they've got time later.
So it's about allowing enough space in your thinking to have quiet time without the phone, without TV, go for walks without plans.
I always say that space is medicine, because when we allow ourselves some space, it's when the answers will come or the shortcuts.
Life will give us shortcuts.
It may be that you go out walking, you leave your phone at home, you're trying to find a solution to something, to live a life true to yourself.
And in that walk, you might fall into a conversation with a complete stranger.
They may say some offhanded remark about something and off they go and you go on your day.
But that half a sentence or that one sentence might be exactly the solution you were looking for, or it may plant the seed for you to think oh okay, I'm looking in the wrong direction.
I don't have to take those 30 steps to get there.
I can just take these three or four and get started.
So...
To live a life true to yourself means facing the fact that you're going to die, because then you care less about what other people think.
It also means creating the space to hear that quiet whisper in yourself, without pressure, not like okay, I'm meditating, I need the answer right now, or you know okay, I've got one day to find this solution.
It's more about just carving out little bits of time doing what you love, whether it's just going for a walk without plans, or whether it's spending time in the garden, or just allowing yourself to go into that childlike state as such, and not to be always working out the how, and just allow yourself to be fully present and be in the moment.
Because the more we do that, the more life breathes a sigh of relief.
In my experience, that life just breathes a sigh of relief and says oh, I can help them now.
They've actually created enough space that I can, I can step in and help them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's what you're sharing is essential.
I think it's more complex than it's ever been now.
You know like we're always like putting something, you know we're just busy doing something and just carving out time.
And I, and I wrote this down as well.
Schedule space, right?
Just time to just be to check in with yourself.
Yes.
There's going to be a lot of static on the, on the line.
I think when you first, kind of like slow down to try to tune in.
Like, what do I want to do with my life?
You know, what are the things that bring me joy?
Because we can get just so caught up in all this busyness.
And this reminds me of what you shared about Grace and that story.
You know, I have a theory about it too.
You know, with her being so tied to her husband and being what he wanted her to be, her lifeline was attached to that.
And so I think that it wasn't an accident that shortly thereafter him going into that home of her, you know, finding that she has this chronic illness and she's soon to pass away.
That's just my theory.
And so, with Grace having this realization that she had kind of outsourced the things that she really wanted to do and immediately going to get in the brochure and wanted to do the thing that she had wanted to do,
But I know that many of us have the experience of attaching ourselves to something that is unhealthy or you know a situation.
In the book.
I think you said that her and her children kind of affirmed that they considered he was kind of a tyrant even and just kind of domineering what she was doing in her lifestyle.
And so, keeping that in mind, I know this is incredibly difficult dealing in relationships in general, but how do can we maintain a sense of self when we're in an ideal circumstances?
Like, is this just about like permission?
Is this just about getting ourselves around people that can be helpful for us?
What do you think?
It's understanding that you don't have to fill the space and that you're as worthy of your own love as the people that you're giving the love to.
So it is permission exactly.
And it's also letting go of should.
So, with the amount of things that There's always something that could ask for our attention, let alone social media emails family, everything.
There's always something.
But once you start recognising the value of leaving a bit of space and you do schedule it in, then you stop feeling guilty for that time.
You also stop trying to fill the space and just let it unfold as however it wants to unfold.
And those little moments may seem like nothing.
They may seem so irrelevant to what you're trying to achieve.
They may also feel like a waste of time.
I could be doing this right now, but instead I'm just, you know, going for a stroll or watching the clouds go overhead, or whatever.
But those moments expand and they genuinely nurture our wellbeing and help us show up better for our families, better for our work.
And that's why I always say it is medicine.
Space is medicine, because I've just found over the years, the more I've committed to leaving enough space and not overburdening my plans, and understanding that okay, I might have this on from this time to this time, but I'll probably need an hour to myself between this and the next thing.
And it just leaves...
It reduces stress enormously because you know you'll get to places on time.
You know things will land okay.
But more so I just find that it just gives you so many shortcuts.
And so we're so busy, feeling guilty for taking time out and feeling like we should be doing something, we should be productive.
But nothing in nature is productive 100 of the time.
And we are nature, we're a part of nature.
And so we need to give ourselves rest time, not just rest physically through sleep or deep relaxation or meditation or anything like that, but also just rest mentally, just to give ourselves time out from having to solve every problem in our life or find every solution in our life all the time.
Sometimes it's okay just to be in a state of wonder and look at a flower for 10 minutes and think how on earth is that possible?
Yeah.
You said letting go of should, and that ties back with grace, because sometimes For her she should stay, because that's just what you do, even if she is unhappy and not able to live the life that she truly wanted to live.
So it's the shoulds.
It's shoulding on yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Well, we're going to move on.
Again, these are these five lessons that you collected.
Again, just hearing certain things as you shared repeatedly, maybe a different tenor, different texture.
But these are some of those consistent things.
And for us to think about these things, because we're here now and we have the opportunity to be mindful.
And so the next one is, I wish I hadn't worked so hard.
Talk about that one.
Well, it's, I mean, don't shoot the messenger on this one.
I'm the messenger for dying people who have said this.
And so often have people say, well, I've got to provide for my family and blah, blah, blah.
I'm a single mom.
I'm the sole provider for my daughter and I, I get it.
I get what it's like to have financial commitments and obligations, but it's about not making work your whole life and your whole identity.
And so understanding that Yes, we have to.
Most of us have to work.
But don't look at work as being your only validation or your only place in the world.
That your contribution as a sports coach on your kid's soccer team or something can be just as important for your life's contribution as the job that brings in the money.
And so... you know, I work hard, you work hard.
I'm very much a project based person.
So I work really hard when I'm in a project, but I've also learned that after a project I have to rest before I go into the next one.
And so by setting boundaries, by also realizing there's so many other areas of life to not only bring us joy, but they they, they.
If we commit to some of those other areas, like our, our wellbeing, or family and friendships, everything by, by spreading our energy out and our focus out, we bring a better version of ourselves back to our work anyway.
And so if we're just driving ourselves all the time for it to be about work, then we're really coming from a place of fear and not allowing life to help us, because we're trying to solve everything ourselves.
And so, None of us are meant to do it completely on our own and we're an interconnected species.
And I don't think there's been very much of the best things like of the best things in my life have all come through connections with other people.
And so if we're just trying to do it all on our own, then we are working too hard, because it doesn't actually have to be quite that hard.
Yeah.
Again...
This is literally firsthand experience.
And so just knowing that people, when they are in their last moments of life, that like I wish I hadn't worked so hard.
Like, listen to that.
Yes.
Really pay attention.
It's real.
Because it's, I think, even today, especially today, it's easier than ever to do, because work can follow you anywhere, you know.
And I remember and of course there's seasons for things as well to keep in mind, but there was a time, especially before my youngest son was born, where I didn't even I don't even think I even said the word vacation.
Like, my mouth, I couldn't pronounce it.
But I didn't see any need for it.
Like, for what?
Like, let's go, you know?
I've got a mission.
I've got to change the world, you know?
And I just didn't see that as a part of my reality, you know?
But thankfully, my wife...
She sees differently, you know?
And so her influence got me to like we've had our first family vacation and all those kinds of things.
When you know my son, who's here with us today my oldest son, but my youngest son was a baby and we took our first.
We're taking babies on flights, by the way.
It's not always fun.
Yeah.
And he was compassionate.
We got to show more compassion to the people traveling with babies.
All right.
But you know, just being able to thankfully have that exposure to know that we need to recharge right.
No matter how much we love our work, we can get wrapped up in it.
And over time.
I think something valuable for us as well is yes, having that time to step away, which I've learned to do, thank goodness.
But even in between time, in the meantime and in between time, there's this concept in our society of work-life balance which I think is kind of it's a myth a little bit.
I think it's better addressed as work-life integration.
Because that trip that I just mentioned with my son, he came to work with me as well that next day, right?
And he took the most amazing pictures while he was there.
And he said he actually was in tears because he was seated behind me.
I didn't see him, but a part of the show at some point and something that I had said.
And he got to be there and to be around me.
You know this energy, the work that I'm doing and to see like to be a part of what I'm doing.
And so it's not separate from him, right?
In our culture today, do you know about severance?
There's this TV show called Severance.
Oh, I've seen that.
Yeah, I haven't watched it.
Where people literally, they have like an implant where they are a different person when they go to work.
Like it's, they check, they don't remember any of it, completely separate, right?
And this is, it leads to thinking like that.
You know, when you bring, you, There's another tenet of like, don't bring work home with you.
You do.
You're a person, you know?
And so having more exposure integration points, if you can, right?
Where you can involve your kids.
Maybe it's even with your exercise.
Maybe you're an adamant exerciser and it takes up a lot of your time.
Maybe involve your kids.
Like let them see what mom or dad is doing when they're disappearing for an hour each day to some place.
They come back sweaty and happy.
And you just like, what is mom doing?
Like-
And to know that, you know, this is just a part of our culture.
And my son is a testament to that who's sitting over there as well.
You know, he's in this space in fitness too.
So, you know, just being able to like, there isn't a black and white way to do this.
And that's one of the things that you really helped with us as well in this book.
Yeah.
I think that there's not a black and white way.
And also you're still spending time with your children.
You're integrating quality family time.
I mean, my daughter's here on my work trip as well.
It's, It is.
I don't think it's as clear cut as where we're expected to make it, but as we're expected to sort of see it as,
But because we are so connected through our phones and through our computer, just through any tech, there does occasionally have to be a conscious choice to say okay well, you know, I'm having this whole weekend off.
I'm not going to be checking emails.
I'm not going to be doing anything.
Sometimes there has to be a conscious choice to set a healthy boundary.
Yeah.
Do you think for the families who you know, for those people that you've worked with, the families maybe would have even preferred to have more time with them versus more money in the bank.
Oh, everyone.
It's always time over money.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's...
That's the thing.
We glorify money, and money is a fabulous tool that can create a lot of choice and a lot of freedom.
But time is irreplaceable, and yet we waste it far more than we ever waste money.
We're going to go to the third one.
Again, this is the top five regrets of the dying, and this is available everywhere.
It's an international bestseller.
How many languages is this translated?
Thirty-two languages.
Thirty-two.
That's amazing.
This resonates with people all over the world.
That's what that says.
Yes.
So powerful.
Thank you.
The third one here is, I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings.
So these are, again, a regret that people are having in their last moments.
Let's talk about this one.
So it came from a couple of different angles.
Sometimes it was people wishing they could tell their loved ones how much they valued them.
They could tell their adult children that they were proud of them, that they loved them.
It's incredible how many people can't do that, can't feel comfortable telling a family member that they love them or they value them, or what they like about them or whatever.
But it also came from another angle, where people wished they'd express their feelings out of their own self-kindness.
So it had created stronger boundaries and people had spoken up.
They wish they'd spoken up for themselves in family dynamics or in friendships or whatever.
So it can be either way.
Speaking up, expressing your feelings, can be an act of love, but sometimes the act of love is towards the person you're speaking with.
Sometimes the act of love is is for the person doing the speaking.
Yeah, i'm glad that you brought this up with you know, having a temperament of extreme kindness even, and not expressing your feelings because you're, you know, attempting to be extra kind.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
And it doesn't serve you in the long term.
It doesn't help you reach your potential if all you're doing is being kind to everyone else, but you're not actually meeting some of your own needs at the same time.
But one of the patients I looked after he was unable to – let his family know that he knew he was dying, and his family decided not to tell him that they knew he was dying.
And so it was just this awful sort of elephant in the closet like okay, Joseph is dying here, but no one wants to talk about it.
And so he's a 91-year-old man and he asks me, his caregiver, I am dying, aren't I, Bronnie?
And I said, well, yes, you are, Joseph.
And in the meantime his wife is coming in with massive meals saying come on, eat up, you'll be better in no time.
She knows he's dying.
She doesn't want to talk about it.
He knows he's dying.
He doesn't want to make her uncomfortable talking about it.
So here's this beautiful old man dying alone in the same house as his family, and the only person he could talk about it with is a paid caregiver.
And that's just heartbreaking to get to that point where I even said to him do you want me to be a medium here and let's all talk about it together.
Oh, no, no, leave it, Bronnie.
It's fine.
And so there's a lot of families like that that do not want to speak about death, do not want to – they just find denial is a lot easier to live with.
But if you're the person dying in the same house as the people you love the most – it's a pretty lonely place to be.
So being able to express your feelings along the way, even before you've got to speak about death, is actually a very healthy habit to try and create with people you love is to do the hard conversations, to know that you might hurt someone by expressing how you're feeling, but they may either react in anger or not be able to handle it.
You can't guarantee their reaction, but they may also turn around and say okay well, I'm really sorry that I've been that way with you.
I never considered it from that perspective, but here's how you also hurt me.
And then you can have these hard but honest conversations that open the space for so much healing and dissolve the chances of regret later.
Yeah, yeah.
Are you about that snack life?
The paradigm of snacks have changed dramatically in recent years.
I grew up my snacks animal crackers, little capri sun, maybe some random candy from my grandma's purse.
You know, she's got the butterscotches and peppermints in there, all right, of course.
We got a little little chips, little cookie.
Listen, that's all fine and dandy, but our paradigm of eating candy has really messed us up, and so, trying to get healthier, i started having granola bars.
Right, Had granola bars as a kid as well.
Super sweetened with a picture of a guy with a wig on.
You know, look like one of the founding fathers on the box.
You know what I'm talking about.
But trying to get healthier.
You know I switch over.
I do the granola healthier, lower sugar or low fat paradigm of these cereal bars, but still really missing the point.
And then today we had all these innovations in these newly invented chemical complexes to try to trick our bodies with fake fats or fake sugars, and we end up with a ultra-processed conglomeration of a new kind.
What about something real?
What about utilizing the paradigm of a food bar something on the go, but with all real food ingredients?
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And now back to the show.
This is the one that...
I've seen firsthand affecting, you know, the people who survive.
You know the loss of a loved one is the regret of not expressing feelings, you know, and certain things that you wish you would have said and certain questions that you might've wanted to ask because you know, as you've already expressed, like we don't know when that day is going to be.
You know it could be our last.
And so this is an opportunity for us to express those feelings, to ask the questions and, you know, to say the things that we want to say.
You know and I this is part of my.
It's beautiful as well, because I didn't know when I was going to lose my grandmother but just there's so many questions that I have for her.
Now you know, years and years later, and so many things that I wish I would have said, or said more.
And so this was again a reminder for me to say the things and, you know, to encourage that in other people as well.
But that can be tough.
Oh, it can be so tough to be that vulnerable.
It can be painfully tough to find the courage and put yourself in that position because we can't control how they're going to react.
We might be mocked for sharing something that's hugely important to us and has taken so much guts to share.
And they're not able to receive it the way we needed them to receive it.
But then your grandmother can be gone and you've got all those questions and all those things left unsaid.
It's better to at least try while we're here because we don't know.
You and I, either one of us could be dead this afternoon.
We really don't know.
And so it's really important that the things that are closest to our heart are shared with those who are closest to our hearts.
Can you give us any advice in how to actually go about doing that?
Because again, this, this one in particular is very difficult.
Is this something that we can address within ourselves or ask ourselves?
Or, you know, you even offered to be a medium for this family who were just ignoring the obvious or not talking about the obvious thing and just kind of sweeping it under the rug when the clock was ticking.
Yeah well, this is the regret that actually was most relatable for me as well, because silence was my safe place growing up.
I just found that if I stayed quiet and unnoticed then I didn't cop my father's wrath so much and his rage.
And so it was really hard for me to hear that regret from dying people and to witness the pain.
But That's where I've been blessed, because that pain is real, the anguish at the end of life when you've got regrets that you don't necessarily have to take right to the end.
And so I think the main thing is to understand that we're all at different points in our journey and, no matter how ready you are to share things, you cannot guarantee how it's going to be received.
So you have to understand that okay, I'm sharing this moment for the potential of the relationship, whether it's a family relationship, a partnership, whatever.
I'm sharing this for the potential of the relationship, but I have no control over how it will be received.
But at least I will know I've been brave enough to share what I have to say.
And whether that is... You've got to pick your battles.
You've got to pick your moments as well.
And so as soon as you say to someone, we need to talk, the walls are up, you know.
And...
And there's also the choice of writing a letter and of course that can be received and be reread and contemplated, or it can be totally lost in translation and misunderstood.
So I think it really is just facing the fact that would I rather share this and know that I was brave enough and know that it plants a seed of potential for healing rather Or would I rather carry this to my grave and know that I didn't have the guts to share it and yet it may have been received so openly and warmly and it may have been the catalyst for change that both of you were craving.
You don't know.
You can't guarantee any of it.
And so I think it's really about facing the fact that you're going to die.
I either take all this unsaid stuff to my grave and and miss out on the potential of this healing, or I take the risk of saying this.
It may almost destroy me in some ways, but at least then I know where I stand, because at least I've had the courage to voice my deep feelings.
It's a dance.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
You said it perfectly.
It is a dance.
Yeah.
So we can basically temper up our courage to express our feelings and and maybe temper down your expectations.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Number four here.
I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends.
This is one of the common things people would say.
Yeah.
And so a lot of the people I was looking after.
This is before social media became so huge in our lives.
But yeah, Social media isn't really staying in touch with your friends.
You can say to someone, oh yeah, I went on a holiday.
Oh yeah, yeah, I saw it on social media.
And it's like, yeah, but I want to tell you the story here.
And one of my friends.
He's a longevity coach, Marcus Pierce.
He's an Australian guy and he always says social media is not social.
And he's very much about catching up in real life.
And I feel the same.
And what was happening with dying people is that the real-life connection is.
I mean in our everyday life.
Real-life connection will propel us forward and hold us in such a stronger space than a text message saying thinking of you, though that's better than nothing.
But when people are dying...
Often, so say if someone has adult children, so say my mum, she's 88, I'm 58.
So say if it was her and she's dying.
Myself and my siblings may or may not, but in a general case the siblings are often grieving the dying parent before the parent is even dead.
And the dying parent... wants to live for as long as they can.
And so they're not well enough to get up and go outside and see their friends, but they're still mentally well enough to keep living.
So they want to hear stories from outside.
They want life to be brought into them and they want to hear everything.
But often the adult children are already in a place of grieving and loss and a parent sees through that.
They can sort of be putting on a brave face and you know yeah yeah, this has happened and this has happened.
But often the parent is still the dying person, is still in parent mode and worried about their adult children or their grandchildren while they're dying.
Whereas a friend can come in, a friend might have to have their tears and show some grief.
But generally a friend can make a dying person laugh a lot easier than most family can, because The dying person is not responsible for the friend's wellbeing, whereas they are responsible for their children's wellbeing or they feel responsible.
They're not, but they feel it.
And so friends can play a massive role in the enjoyment of the last weeks of a person's life, just through telling stories.
And they may be stories from before the patient even became a parent, or They can be stories from so far back.
But either way, the dying person doesn't feel so responsible for their well-being.
So they can receive the joy and the lightness and the storytelling in ways that they can't receive it from their family.
And so friendships can really make a massive difference in the end because...
Like I say, people want to live for as long as they're still alive, even if their body is just winding down and the organs are starting to pack up.
As long as they're conscious, they want to know what's going on in the world.
They want to still be a part of things.
Yeah.
That's so insightful.
Thank you.
You know, in the context of, I wish I would have stayed in touch with my friends.
Again, today it's very different.
It's very different.
And even our definition of staying in touch can be a little bit, I think, disillusioned.
I think it's great for touch points, but we really evolved to be around each other, right?
And so this innovation with social media.
It just doesn't work with the way that we are wired, the way that we are.
You know we're human beings, you know.
And so evolution takes a long time.
And I think that this is contributing again to so much dysfunction and feeling.
We have epidemics now of loneliness.
Yes.
People are alive and even around other people and lonely.
And so, you know, this is another affirmation to invest and schedule.
Like you mentioned schedule that space, but scheduling time to be with friends and family.
In real life.
In real life.
Yes.
Because many people they have got all this stuff on their schedule to do that is far less important than their friends and family.
And they would tell you that, but the friends and family time is not scheduled.
And so this is a huge affirmation for us to like really make that a priority today more than ever.
Yeah, and also interact with the people that you come across in shops and in the stores.
Just interact and see the humanity in people.
And a smile from a stranger can carry you through a long time.
If you're having a rough time and a stranger walks past and smiles at you, that's going to probably do a heck of a lot more than someone sending a text message saying oh, you know, we've got to catch up one day.
This, you just said it, this is so profound.
You know, from that experience with my son it's you know, this little trip the things that stand out the most are the people you know like when I was feeling frustrated and moving fast and all these things, it was a quick perspective change when we came out and there was like a car, you know, like a, you know, Uber type situation.
And the guy looked like Mr. Miyagi, but clean shaven Mr. Miyagi.
And he was so jubilant and happy and, you know, and thoughtful, and just giving and wanting to do these extra things.
And, you know, he said, you know, it looked like a battle in there with the game tonight.
I was like, yeah, you know, we saw, but he was like, I had a battle out here myself.
And he shared a story like somebody hit his car, right?
It didn't really, you know scratched, but then he got out of the car to, I guess, talk to them, and then they took off.
And I'm guessing that he was maybe 75, you know, but he took off running after them.
And he said, I was running so fast and I fell.
And he said, both of my knees are bloody red and my hands.
And he's sitting in the front seat telling me the story at this point.
And I'm just like, This sounds a little far fetched.
All right.
Cause you look, you're so happy and fine.
And so, but then he went on to tell me all these incredible people that he's driven for and you know, and just you know, and so we get to our location and we, you know, he grabs our bags out, and then he's about to get in the car and we're walking towards the door and he's like Hey, you know, I told you about, he lift his pants, legs up.
Just, he didn't lift it up to his knees, but he just tugged his pants and it exposed these two huge holes and bloody red knees.
And it's just like, and you can still be happy.
I'm frustrated about these little obstacles in getting to this game.
And he showed me his hands were all scraped up, but he was like a highlight of this trip.
And I'm thinking about him and talking about him now.
And I hope that this reaches him somehow.
And you know breakfast.
The next morning we got there, breakfast stopped at nine o'clock, which is unusual.
We got there at 8.59 and we could see the chef.
Somebody asked the chef and I just kind of put my head back there like, Come on, you know, I hope you see me.
Maybe you know.
And she was like, you were one, you had one minute, I got you.
And so she made from scratch.
But I thought it would be like a warmup situation because it was a hotel.
This incredible breakfast, hand cut fruit.
It was this beautiful Samoan lady.
And she was just doing extra, wanting to give us extra and take care of us.
So it's the people.
It's not just even with the friends and the family, but just being more human and paying attention to that.
Thank you so much for pointing that out.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it's, I mean, sometimes people like that, they just need the opening as well.
They're dealing with people just on auto mode all day and then they get someone who comes along and acknowledges them and that creates an opening.
But I'm just going to add in as well what you were saying about Mr. Miyagi and about perspective.
I mean, it's one of the only forms of control we ever truly have is perspective, where we choose to put our focus.
Yes.
And so he could have been in such a different place, but he's chosen a radiant perspective, or at least a positive outlook.
That has had a ripple effect onto you.
You and I are now enjoying that story.
I'm going to think about him later.
We don't know the seeds we sow through the goodness of small interactions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's...
We can't underestimate the power of human connection.
Yeah.
It brings more life to our living.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Wow.
We are at our final one here.
And this one is, I wish I had let myself be happier.
So this isn't about denying the hard times because we all have hard times.
At least all of us who are trying to grow and know our potential and not escape it.
And well, even if you're trying to escape it, you have a hard time.
We can't escape ourselves.
But it's not about denying the hard times because that is making mistakes is how we grow.
That's all part of how we grow.
Suffering is a part of the human experience.
But it's about how long we choose to stay focused on that suffering, and So, after I looked after dying people, I ended up burning out and going through a period of depression after all of those years.
And I didn't see it coming.
I just felt like someone had unplugged me from the wall and I had no energy.
But there was a bird, a willy-wag-tail, which I think is native to Australia, but a couple had built a nest right near my veranda.
I was out in the bush at the time, living in a little cottage by a creek, and they had babies and I got to hear the baby's first songs ever and see their first flight ever.
And so, while I was in this healing crisis and this massive catalyst of change that I was going through every time I go outside to watch the Willy Wag Tales I was choosing happiness.
And so it wasn't denying the fact that my life was in a place of upheaval and that I was cracking open some really big patterns to heal and dissolve.
But every time I looked at those birds and I found a moment of joy from them.
That is choosing happiness.
So it's just understanding that the journey like we can never just get there where everything is perfect.
If we do, it'll be momentary.
It won't be, you know okay, I've ticked every box and now life's going to be perfect for the rest of my life.
It doesn't work that way.
It's an ongoing wave of up and down and it always will be.
And so the more you can sort of learn to ride those waves and just not let the low waves pull you down and drown you, but just while you're down in amongst it, look up and see the sunshine or look up and see a good person or just see something to be grateful for in your life and Without denying the fact that you're in a hard time but also realising you're worthy of happiness.
You don't have to pay a penance for the judgements other people may have put on you all your life, their brokenness and their opinions.
You don't have to carry all of that.
And so it's also things like that is choosing happiness to say okay well, I might have been told I was this all my life, but I'm not and I'm going to try and heal that and it's killing me, even though those old beliefs no longer fit me or serve me.
It's killing me to break free of them, but I'm going to choose happiness by doing this work and I'm going to create space from the stuff that brings me down.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a powerful statement to choose happiness.
Yeah.
It's not always easy.
I think we, of course, well, you know, this is what we tend to have conditions.
Like we got to check off these conditions and then I can be happy.
Yes.
And often again, that, doesn't show up or if it does, it's very fleeting.
Yeah, that's right.
It's fleeting.
And it's not, and that's just part of the human experience.
It's not that there's something wrong with us if we don't get all those boxes ticked off and stay in that spot.
We're never meant to.
We're here to grow and learn.
Yeah.
That was a great transition from the Mr. Miyagi story.
And it's crazy.
We call him Mr. Miyagi.
But he chose happiness.
Yes.
Despite the circumstances.
And look at the circumstances.
I mean, he's fallen over.
He's in his seventies.
He's fallen over.
He's potentially had, you know, a car problem.
Someone's taken off on him.
And instead he's there telling you and your son this story with joy in his heart.
You know, the thing I remember the most about that conversation with him was his expression when he said I was running so fast.
Oh, bless.
He looked like a baby when he said it.
Because in my head, I'm like, you couldn't have been going that fast.
But for him, he was flying.
And I saw that expression on his face.
And it's just like, I wish I was there running with you.
So powerful.
With this conversation.
I know that with your experience you also very likely found some qualities or some character traits of people who tended to not have many regrets or any at all.
Like, do you know what I mean?
Yes, yeah, there were.
Were there any particular qualities that people would carry that you noticed for people who felt very content at the end of their life?
Yes.
If they had good family communication.
That was definitely something that made the transition possible smoother and the acceptance of death a lot smoother.
If they had humour, if they had faith whether it was a religious faith or just a faith in something beyond this life to go home to or to go to.
Those three things the humour and good communication and faith they totally changed the, the final chapter for people, compared to those who were in denial, had no faith and or were too scared to have humor.
I want to ask you about this, the humor one.
Like why would that be relevant in somebody you know not having regrets or you know very few regrets and just kind of being more content?
Well, humor is very underrated for healing.
Yeah.
It's massively underrated.
It's one of the the most fabulous things we can do is to maintain humour even through the hardest, hardest times.
I say that, but sometimes I say to my daughter, this is not the time for a joke.
This is not the time right now I need you to hear me say this because she's always cracking jokes.
I wonder where she gets it.
Yeah, it's handed down through the women in our family, that's for sure.
But it's...
You know, humour brings a lightness of spirit and it's not all meant to be hard and sad.
And even at the end of our life, the dying people still want to live for as long as they're alive.
And so humour can just bring that lightness to what can be very heavy situations.
When they're lying there.
They've got maybe two hours of conscious clarity a day in between sleep and medication and that sort of thing.
And in that two hours, all they're getting is people saying, oh, yeah, she's not real good today.
You know, if they feel guilty, they feel embarrassed and ashamed.
Sometimes if they're taking all the attention.
And yeah, it's amazing how guilty and ashamed some dying people can be.
But if there can be a little bit of humour, then there's still humanity and we've got to hold on to every aspect of humanity for as long as we can.
I love it.
I'm thinking of my mom-in-law now, who I first heard through her that seriousness is a sickness.
You know, and just grasping on to things so tightly and you know everything is so serious.
And on the opposite, like there's so many, we've got a lot of data on this, on the power of laughter and humor and how healing it is.
You know, there's a great quote that says I think it's an Irish proverb that the two best cures for anything is are a good laugh and a long sleep.
That's about all.
And unplugging, probably.
Add that to the mix for 2025.
This has been so fun.
I wish I could talk to you so much more.
And I appreciate you again.
You've come a long way to hang out with me today.
So you know, I hope that you know again a lot of people if you don't yet have this book, because I think a lot of people actually know about you because I knew about your book before I knew about you.
Like it was kind of just out there in the ethers, you know, and you've made a big impact on the world already.
And so to meet you today and to like, deepen these sentiments for me.
Like it's really helped to change my perspective.
And I just feel so much more value in my minutes right now already.
So, I mean, that's priceless.
Like, thank you so much.
Well, then I've done my job.
You sure have.
Yeah, and thank you for having me, Sean.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you.
Where can people connect with you, follow you?
Where can people pick up the book?
Yeah, so the book is available anywhere.
Any good bookstore, Bronnie Ware, W-A-R-E.
Easy to remember, beware.
Bronnie Ware, slight oversight by my parents.
Yeah, bronnieware.com is my website.
I'm on Instagram and Facebook.
Sometimes I'm not there that I don't sort of let social media rule my life too much.
I spend more time offline, but I'm blessed that my work is more famous than I am.
So as long as my work keeps getting out there and supporting people, I'm happy with that.
Amazing.
And we're all happy with you.
So thank you so much for coming to hang out with us.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode today.
I hope that you got a lot of value out of this.
Such a profound conversation.
And again, the book is The Top Five Regrets of the Dying.
You could pick up anywhere that books are sold.
And I'm telling you, this is a very, very special book.
I don't know how else to put it.
It's profound.
I deciding to read this book because it's talking about death.
And who wants to think about that or talk about that, especially when you're fully invested in living this life?
And it's one of those things, as we started off this episode with.
You know, there's just two things guaranteed in the US.
Shout out to America death and taxes.
All right.
It's one of these imminent, looming things, but we've got to embrace and change our perspective, because Right now it immediately.
Once we understand that we have a certain time that we're allotted here on this planet, it gives us the opportunity to take more advantage of the time that we do have.
And right now, with so much distraction, so many things pulling our attention, so many things that are fracturing our minds and our communities, we've got to be even more adamant about taking full control and reign of our minds and standing guard at the door of our minds.
And a book like this and a change in perspective like this really does help to emphasize our priorities and what really matters most at the end of the day.
And so I appreciate you so much for investing your time with me today.
And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a comment.
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