You wanted Trump to pardon Hunter Biden, but his dad has beaten him to the punch.
Yeah, I mean, I think it would have been a very smart move by Trump to send a unifying message to a very fractured and divided America if he was to do it.
But for Joe Biden to do it, after assuring the world, including the American electorate repeatedly in the last few months up to the election, I'm not going to do that.
I'm not going to pardon him to get the White House press secretary to repeatedly say it from the lectern in the White House, I think that's pretty disgraceful.
So there's two ways of looking at this.
I think if Trump had done it, smart move in unifying the country, for Biden to do it, actually a pretty shameless act of rank hypocrisy.
Yeah, not a very nice nail in the coffin of what will be probably not a particularly well -remembered presidency.
I think he'll go down as one of the worst presidents.
He stayed on way too long, and clearly cognitively he was in decline i think the botched coronation of his vice president was another fiasco which came back to haunt them um i think the problem with joe biden is that he the whole issue of hunter biden and the way he's now pardoned him he's always positioned
himself as the whiter than white candidate against trump that trump's the liar trump's shameless Trump's corrupt.
Trump is hypocritical.
All these things. That was the stick he repeatedly used to beat Trump.
And now in one fell swoop, one action, because it's not just he's pardoned him for the things of which he's been convicted.
He's pardoned him for anything else he may have done since 2014 in that period.
A decade of crime. It's like, what else has gone on here?
A lot of rumors about much bigger stuff that may have happened.
And you look at it and you think, wow, that's the kind of thing that, honestly, they talk about a banana republic relating to Trump.
this is about as close to a banana republic act as you could imagine yeah i want to talk about this on your show later on but there's this uh rise of the broligarchy bro politics at the moment which is fascinating i think it's i think it's really interesting but this prioritization of doing good over
looking good and sort of efficiency over optics and um you know this is one of those examples i think where both have gone awry but the thing that you did and the way that it was done and the way that it was led up to.
But in stark contrast to Vivek Ramaswamy doing debate prep with his top off hitting four hands on tennis court or Elon Musk sending rockets into space, sort of a world of people doing things.
Even if you don't agree with the things, you can't deny that they're doing stuff.
And yeah, I wonder what the medium -term future looks like now for America.
Well, I think one of the most important things of the broligarchy in terms of its impact is that so many young men gravitated to it because they've been feeling lost.
You've talked about this a lot.
I've talked to you about this a lot.
I've got three sons from 23 to 31.
I've seen it firsthand.
They've been struggling, not just my sons, but their friendship group, have been struggling to understand what it means to be a man in this weird age that we're now in, social media -driven age, virtue -signalling -driven age, a weird time when losing is almost more celebrated than winning, where the old
alpha male chess beating is now seen as something to be ashamed of, where weakness is almost now seen as a greater characteristic than strength.
And I have been on this for years thinking this is a ruinous way for society to go.
And suddenly along in America, you have this group of very alpha male guys, all chess beaters from RFK Jr.
to Elon, to Trump, to Vivek, to Joe Rogan, all of them.
Very strong -minded guys, to a lesser degree in a different space, Andrew Tate and his brother, who wield extraordinary influence, but I think have a streak of blatant misogyny in Andrew's case, which I really don't like.
But a lot of the reason for his appeal is that lost young men gravitated to him because he was pounding a drum of take care of yourself, be proud of being successful, aspire to be better than you currently are, etc.
etc. And that resonates for people.
I'd add Jordan Peterson to the...
I was going to say, even though Jordan's not a massive fan of Andrew, the message in principle isn't that different.
No. No. And the message is, be proud to be a man again.
You've been ashamed of being a man for many years now, since the avalanche of Me Too, of Time's Up, which absolutely had an important role in society in correcting a historic imbalance in the gender, no question, and historically bad behaviour by a lot of men towards women.
I absolutely do not denigrate either of those movements.
But what it did do, as I knew it would do, the pendulum swung so far the other way that actually it freaked the hell out of young guys.
And they were suddenly like, what am I supposed to be?
How am I supposed to behave?
And women listening to this might think, well, it's easy.
You know how to behave.
Actually, it's not that easy.
Particularly if you've been conditioned to think that being a man is X, Y, Z, and suddenly you're told all those things are things to be ashamed of.
And now we've had the pendulum swing back a little bit and you're seeing a sort of corrective balance where I think people have begun to work out where the boundaries are, where the lines are to a degree.
I think it's still complex out there.
And you're seeing it at the moment with the whole Greg Wallace scandal in the UK.
And for American viewers, very simply, he's a guy who does a cooking show on TV who's been very laddish for 20 years or so.
and now that laddishness has come back to be used to stick to beat him and he said a lot of things which are pretty unpalatable to women who've now ganged up to complain about him um but again that raises that whole area of workplace banter uh workplace relationships right i mean i read that until 10
years ago 40 of all marriages began with a workplace romance that stat cannot exist today because how does it start historically it would be a guy in a superior position with a woman in a lesser position that's historically because of the gender imbalance in the workplace so how do how do people meet
now work they're not really allowed to so what happens then then you gravitate to dating apps they're all pretty they're going out of fashion too they seem to create a flimsy relationship as well they drop off more quickly yeah and that's you've seen that their popularity is decreasing so i do think
how are people meeting each other actually with difficulty yeah elon said cancel culture had been cancelled yeah something you'd been harping on about for a while you think that's true well i like i like the idea of it i certainly think that when you've got a thumping win for a guy like donald trump
who's been helped over the line by people like elon like joe rogan and others who simply don't tolerate or believe in the concept of cancel culture that's incredibly powerful and I think they send a message to the woke world and I always temper this kind of part of a discussion about wokeism by saying
it when wokeism originally began back in the 60s in America um came out of music actually and it was just it was a clarion call for people to be more aware of social and racial injustice by that criteria alone I'm woke happy to be woke it's just the way it's been hijacked in the last 10 years by what i
call i call them fascists they hate it because they hate fascists but i say do you not understand that when you operate on a principle of cancel culture of virtue signaling of fact avoid bullshit about things like supporting trans athletes in women's sport to the point where it just destroys the integrity
of women's sport irrevocably when you pound those drums actually you're behaving like a fascist where you want people to think like you to act like you to speak like you to have the same values to have the same principles to have the same heroes to read the same books to read watch the same movies to
laugh at the same jokes and if you deviate we're going to destroy you that's fascism actually and they don't seem to either understand that or they're in denial but this election's a big wake -up call because i think this election was you had kamala harris progressive pretty far left progressive throughout
her entire political career desperately trying to move to the center when she became the the nominee but it was all too late because the receipts were there and the receipts were used against her memorably in that trans ad that the trump campaign did which they reckon moved the needle by up to three
points where it simply ended with kamala harris is for they them donald trump is for you that was very simple but very effective because actually personal pronouns are bullshit and we all kind of know they're bullshit and now i've noticed on my emails people have stopped using them because they now
realize actually it's made them look a little bit ridiculous particularly those who insist on calling themselves they as joe rogan said about sam smith there's only one of you buddy yeah do you think it's a a repudiation of that obviously you've hardly you've made the claim that woke is instead and identity
politics is dead and virtue signaling instead well i think i think the the concepts are dead the the actual execution of a death may take some time but i do think that if it wasn't dead you'd have seen a massive victory for a progressive far left candidate in kamala harris who pretended she wasn't,
but actually is to her bootstraps.
And she got wiped out.
And I think that that's an indication of three things.
One, Americans trusted Trump to fix the economy and illegal immigration better than they trusted her to do that.
Secondly, there's something about him on the world stage, the swagger that Trump brings to the office, which annoys a lot of people, but he's actually quite effective.
And I think that that was partly in people's minds, particularly when he put his fist up after being shot he showed the world that the potential president of the united states was a badass strong guy and i think that moment may have won in the election when we look back in in history to that moment
particularly when he then got back on a debate stage the week later a rally stage and did it all over again in front of 20 000 complete strangers i spoke to him at night he rang me because he'd seen me talk about it on fox and i said i gotta say whether people i love you i that is a badass statement
of personal courage and he was he was interesting he actually said in that call you know i knew if i didn't get back out of there now i might never get back out which i thought was an interesting you don't often hear trump a little bit of vulnerability a little bit where he kind of knew himself talk
to me about what happens when your phone rings and you pick it up and it says donald j which is djt actually okay um it's a weird thing I mean, it's weird to other people more than me.
I've known Trump for nearly 20 years.
I competed in The Celebrity Apprentice, the first season of it in 2007 -8, and I won it.
And I spent about 100 hours around Trump.
I worked out later in that season.
And I was very informative, particularly in the boardroom filming scenes, which could last up to three hours.
I saw a lot of the way Trump is over hours in the way he interacted with people.
Yeah, and it always struck me there was a disconnect between Trump, the politician, and particularly the president and the guy I saw in that boardroom.
The guy in the boardroom was much warmer, much less combative.
He liked mischief, and he liked stirring things up, and he liked drama, all those things, but he had a streak of empathy towards contestants and stuff, which I've never seen him show as a president.
He believes that he's got to be a strong man all the time.
I think right now, because of the shooting, and because of the scale of his win, which has basically knocked all his critics out, I think he's showing a bit more of that side now, the dancing on stage to YMCA.
I mean, the ultimate joke, really, that the guy who's called the most bigoted president in history chose the number one gay anthem in history to sing on stage.
And he's got America dancing the Trump dance, right?
I see him laughing a lot more in public now, relaxing, enjoying dinners, which you filmed and put out there.
I see him doing a lot more interaction with people.
I think, yeah, that's the guy I remember from apprentice the boardroom when he did the mcdonald's stunt when he did the garbage truck stunt and i've i've seen this really accelerate since he got shot i think he he's a changed man since then i don't think he's going to lose the pugilistic side or the trash
talking side or any of those things which are part of his dna as a new new york real estate guy but i do think he's got that empathy streak he's always hidden is now coming out more and i think he's a happier a more relaxed guy this time because we haven't seen what we saw in 2016 which is the mass
protests the fury the venom the visceral hatred from the mainstream media the russia collusion thing for years and so on um you you take away that side and you take away the thing that trump talks about in his book the art of the deal where he says if someone punches you in the face you hit him back
10 times harder and he means metaphorically as well as physically and for the first four years of that presidency he was punched all the time and he reacted by punching it became just basically a brawl between him and the media and his political opponents this time around there's not that same atmosphere
he doesn't have to be as harsh he doesn't have to be as defensive he's won and he's had four years to think about what he did right and wrong the first time you had a couple of chats with him recently on the phone what have you learned hmm the last time he ran me this week the week before thanksgiving
um about the wednesday of week and he said piers it's donald he said uh i was just watching you on tv and you were looking great and i just thought i'm going to call you and tell you now i don't suspect that isn't actually what he was thinking he just wanted to have a chat but it's classic trump immediately
you're like was i that was laughing um but we do have really like good conversations and he was telling me about all sorts of stuff you know ukraine and russia and uh his cabinet and so on and so on he knows i'm not going to repeat that kind of stuff um but it was a very there've been very warm conversations
very open and i just sense in him that the shooting in particular and then the big scale of the wind they've had a profound effect on him you know he's nearly 80 he doesn't have to fight an election anymore he only has to worry about a legacy you can tell from his cabinet picks he's gone for people
who are not establishment because last time he chose establishment people who then basically a lot of them did him in and probably were there to do him in from the start this time he's got people who are ferociously loyal and in many cases have been very successful in their own fields which are completely different
you know we see wwe right as being a criteria for selection to his cabinet well but why not i mean why not choose people like that.
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That's L -I -V -E -M -O -M -E -N -T -O -U -S dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout what do you think happens if trump is unsuccessful and doesn't make any positive change to america given that he's got all of the things you could want electoral college popular vote house yeah there's no excuse
but where does that leave american politics if you've had both parties have a is there a lot of despondency that'll come down the line if that doesn't uh i think there'll be a lot of schadenfreude a lot of people say told you um i think trump knows that i think he's aware of the potential uh opportunity
here the chance to in a way of a second go at his legacy because he had one go at it which ended catastrophically with the january 6th rioting which was a shameful moment in american history and that was on him and i think that he was then sent to the wilderness i wrote a column or two in early 2022
where i was like this guy's finished he's a busted flush it's all about ronda santis now back off don i look at that now i think wow how has he got back and he got back even stronger than last time and actually it's because the democrats did a number of acts of self -harm they went after him through
the law weaponizing the justice system uh choosing ridiculously pathetic things like whether he shuffled paperwork over one night stand with stormy daniels 20 years ago who cares americans don't care about that they care about the fact they can't feed the kids they care about the fact nearly 10 million people
have come over the border in the Biden administration four -year period that's what they care about it's that looking good over doing good thing again right like optics versus I think it's it's also a visceral hatred of Donald Trump it is this Trump derangement syndrome is a real thing I have friends
of mine who are completely unhinged our family members if you mentioned Trump or if I'd post a picture of me in Trump congratulations on winning again utter mayhem like that Russian sleeper agent activation code Yeah.
And I'm like, you've got to sit back and get the bigger picture with Trump and understand why he's so popular.
I saw from the Hill that AOC is rumoured to be running.
I mean, utterly absurd.
What do you make of her chances?
Well, a shrieking, even more progressive, even more far left candidate version of Kamala Harris.
I mean, Trump, they must be rubbing their hands.
Please, please give us AOC because almost everything she stands for, bearish no relation to what Americans actually care about?
Anything. So she would be the worst possible candidate.
If the Democrats don't wake up, A, they've got to get rid of all this progressive left stuff.
It's got to all go.
They were at their most electable when they had someone like Bill Clinton.
Go back to the Bill Clinton playbook.
He didn't bother with any of that crap.
He just kept it pretty centred.
What would you say to people that go, the world's different now it's not it's not we've been told it's different we've been told we now have to believe the sky is blue when it's actually red and eventually people have gone well hang on it's red why have I got to call it blue and people have gone actually
I'm done with that thanks no and I'm done with the constant offense that everyone's taking about absolutely everything I'm done with everyone losing their jobs over the tiniest you know transgression of the woke worldview rule book uh i'm tired of all of it i'm tired of identity politics i'm tired of the of the rumination of meritocracy
of the altar of of wokeism when it doesn't matter how good you are it matters what your skin color is or your gender um none of that does anyone any good least of all people from ethnic minorities or least of all women if you're trying to promote women's rights I mean it made me laugh in the election Kamala Harris was I'm
for women's rights abortion okay I agree with you okay on that I agree with you uh because we in Britain it's a settled issue we don't you know we just don't really have debate about abortion here we have one of the most lax abortion laws in the world actually um and I'm I'm all in favor I'm all for pro
-women having a choice nothing to do with me gov you just decide women what you want to do with your bodies all in favor of that but how do you square being the candidate for women's rights when you're also supporting trans athletes in women's sport as carmela does you can't because you're eroding women's
rights and then people like jk rowling who put the head over the parapet they get abused not least by the by the harry potter stars who owe her their fortunes and i was like rupert grint's got a 2 .8 million tax bill so maybe he'll be back in a good way maybe that's maybe that's penance you know for being
you know i haven't seen his views about her but i mean a lot of them have been very scathing about her and i'm when i sit with them i had a debate the other day with a guy called ernest who comes on quite a lot is one of our pundits um and he's uh he's a funny guy we have good debates about stuff he
defends the indefensible most of the time and i quite enjoy it but he was talking about how you've got to respect people's right to limit the self -identity in other words if you identify it's whatever you like i have to respect it okay fine so if i identify now as a black man called earnest do you respect
it and of course after about 10 torturous minutes he had to admit he wouldn't respect that so the premise of his argument was all complete bullshit and i've done this before on international women's day a couple years ago identified as a black lesbian and people when they first hear it whoa you can't
use those words on the airways well you can when you're having a debate on international women's day about whether gender identity should be completely limitless and sexuality is a movable feast and actual racial identities we've seen some people who are black pretending to be white or white pretend
to be This has to stop.
You have to actually get back to a fact -based society.
I wonder at the moment if the left -right distinction is breaking down a little bit because Anna Kasparian is turning based, Cenk Uygur and Bernie Sanders are either collaborating with Elon or complimenting him in one way or another.
So I really wonder - Well, you're seeing a return to the centre.
And actually most governments in American and British political history have pretty well been hovering around the centre.
You don't really see extremities on either side.
You don't see the far right or far left getting power really.
And it's the more centrist parties with centrist leaders who tend to have the most longevity and most success.
And I think that's why I always say about Trump, people think he's extreme.
He's not really. If you take away his rhetoric, then his first term of office, he was a pretty moderate a Republican president.
He didn't even go to war anyway, almost unprecedented for a Republican president.
So Trump's rhetoric is really 90 % of the reason people hate him.
But I think a lot of people this election went, you know what, I'm kind of done with that stuff.
We see more optics than we do impact now.
It is very difficult.
No one cares about what the Fed's budget spending this quarter is and show me a spreadsheet but they will care if somebody says something a bit lewd on a video right uh because that now is what you optimize for overlooking good overdoing good right that's not to say that everything that trump does is good
but virtue signaling is a very insidious new scourge in society where you attach i mean i told a story in my last book about after the george floyd murder which i did a lot of stuff i wrote very strongly worded columns about it did a lot of stuff on air on good morning britain which i was hosting the time
about it but there was a day when we were supposed to all do a black square on our instagram and i couldn't understand why what's the point and i went to my local squares in the middle of a pandemic and i just had a bottle of wine it's a nice sunny afternoon and i'd forgot all about what i was supposed
to be doing and i posted a picture of my bottle of wine in the twinkling sunlight on my instagram and my sons all all within about half an hour with dad you got to take that down i said why dad we're getting abused by all our friends and you got to take that down i said i don't understand why are you
being abused because it's you got to do the black square down i said no i don't why to prove what i've written column after column about the horrific murder of george floyd i've said hours and hours and hours of interviews with people about this on air do you think the meeting of black square is going
to make any difference to the promotion of racial equality or or correcting racial injustice what do you think would happen if the black square demand was made in 2024 it wouldn't have anything like the same pickup but it probably wouldn't even be suggested people have realized these are vacuous meaningless
things and that the moment that that needle on the clock got to midnight in came the instagram influencers with all their you know topless bikini slaps it's like whatever they couldn't wait they were itching itching get me off this black square it's killing my business right and so to me it was just
vacuous virtue signaling the worst kind it doesn't help anybody but this kind of uh on the back of it the kind of bullying that goes on to bully people into going along with the herd it's got to stop it's like the taking my knee thing i was completely in support of that uh but i don't think people should be
compelled to do it you know it's a very interesting case in british football there's a northern irish footballer uh called mclean who comes from a little part of northern ireland in derry where bloody sunday happened where literally people in his street were killed by british paratroopers in one of the worst
incidents of the troubles and the british troops that day behaved appallingly.
And he doesn't want to wear a poppy, which we wear to celebrate Remembrance Day, because it doesn't just remember people in the world wars, it remembers all armed conflict involving British troops ever.
And that includes bloody Sunday in his eyes.
And he said, I can't look at people in the eye in Derry.
And all the time, every year he gets the same abuse.
And every year he refuses to wear it.
And every year I'd normally post at some stage why would we expect him to why should he be compelled to wear something which actually supports a group of people who in that particular moment in northern ireland killed his own people and i don't think we should bully people like him into doing it it
feels legitimate you know this person's evidently got a thought through very well rounded established good argument which makes sense but most people don't want to hear it they just say he won't wear a poppy he's a disgusting disgrace and that that is the progeny of people who are using these sorts
of social campaigns inappropriately as well because it causes people to have a reaction the boy who cried what the boy who cried woke um that you have this immune response that immediately gets triggered because you're not happy with it something else you know one of the most interesting things i think
over the last few years has been to see your uh arc through legacy media and now joining us in the muck and the mire as a youtube degenerate yeah talk to me about how you sort of come to conceptualize the different worlds what you've learned since coming over to my side of the fence well it came about because i
launched this uh new show pierce morgan i censored and we were launching it on talk tv in the uk which was a new network launched by rupert murdoch and um concurrently we set up a youtube channel and it was really interesting like i was doing big interviews with donald trump and cristiano ronaldo and kenny
west and all these people uh yay as he calls himself now and we found that we were getting a pretty small audience on talk tv which was a linear platform an hour -long show live with commercial breaks very traditional but on youtube without any restrictions we could run the longer versions of interviews
if we pre -taped them and so on and we were getting 10 20 30 40 times the audience and it would be far more cost effective to not produce a linear television version and when this went on for a year or two i was eventually like why are we doing this why are we losing money hand over fist to cater to
probably quite an aging audience you know if you look at the average age of cable news in america audience is 70 now for fox cnn msnbc um they're old people right i mean that means a lot of them probably 80 um young people do not watch television apart from live sport i know because i've got four kids
from 31 to 13 none of them watch tv so you can either pretend that what's happening in front of your eyes isn't happening or you can see what how your habits of your kids are and look at what's happening literally on the numbers and so we got to about a year ago february of 2024 and i came off linear
tv completely and we just went full youtube and we've now got three and a half million subscribers which you will appreciate it's not bad in two and a half years i think it took joe rogan four years to get to a million not that i'm comparing i am comparing and uh and we now get millions of views for for our
content um uh on almost pretty much everything and sometimes we get real poppers like the bassam yousef the egyptian uh comedian political activist 22 million people watch that the real life stalker from uh or martha alleged stalker from baby reindeer again 16 17 million people watch that on our youtube
channel we would never got anything like that on the new television what about what about from the sort of rhetoric perspective from your um you know journalisming you always wanted to be a journalist always always loved the news so on and so forth but this how much is this a new way to assess the day's
stories and what has it unlocked anything or is it just kind of a different package on i think for me what i love i love two parts of it one being a ringmaster to really good debates with smart people.
I have a no dummies rule, and we've exercised it a few times where people don't get invited back if they're too dumb, because nobody wants to hear dumb people debating serious topics.
We do a lot of serious debates, whether it's American election debates, whether it's Ukraine, Russia, whether it's Israel, Hamas, war, P.
Diddy scandal, whatever it may be, you need smart people.
And that's my criteria for booking guests for the debates.
But also, I want to balance it up.
I want to have equal numbers on both sides, smart, debating it.
And when you get it right it's magic because there's very few places in the world doing that i mean we're pretty the only ones in the youtube space who don't have an ideological position you know if you look at people i really admire in the space people like ben shapiro megan kelly and others they obviously
come at it from an unashamedly conservative bias i don't similarly on the left medi hassan and others come in chank you got although he's beginning to move quite rapidly i've noticed to to the dark side as he would put it um but they they're from the left uh i'm in the middle genuinely in the middle
uh people could not position me into republican or democrat or here conservative or labor um i don't position myself in that way i see myself foremost as a journalist and what i like now is i can literally act as a journalist to everybody just when they say something fact check it in real time ask them
the right questions you know challenge everybody equally and i think people learn a lot from those kind of debates i do i literally my favorite debate is at the end of 90 minutes I go do you know something I've really learned a lot today you might all have different slants on what you've been telling
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that's nomadic .com slash modern wisdom you spend a lot of time either arguing with people or watching people argue with people i love a good argument i can tell what's your more nuanced karma yeah i think environment which again i also really like as well occasionally i will do that with people but as
a rule of thumb i like a good old heated knockabout debate i i've noticed yeah What's your advice for disagreeing better with people?
You've got to listen to what you're being told by the other side.
You can't have a blindly implacable view of anything.
I respect, for example, take the Israel -Hamas war.
The people I've had on are most respected.
Have been able to concede.
If you're on the Palestinian side, for example, and I am to a large degree supportive of a lot of what they say about the way Palestinians have been treated.
but if they come on and they say that they won't condemn hamas is to ask everyone the same question became a bit of a running joke on social media but there's a reason i ask it if they condemn what hamas did on october the 7th i can move forward to a debate where i know that they're intellectually honest
if they can't i know i'm dealing with somebody who's so blindly implacably hateful towards israel that they can't see the wood for the trees and they won't see mass murder in front of their eyes.
They won't see a terror attack in front of their eyes and call it out for what it is.
Similarly, on the pro -Israel side, if they don't have any empathy or sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people going back decades, it's very hard to have a conversation with them where you think they're being intellectually honest.
They're not because you can have both opinions, as I do.
So, I think that intellectual honesty is a powerful tool you know when i've had israel guests recently who've admitted quite readily that the expansion of the settlements on the west bank is just plain wrong and probably constitutes a war crime uh i think great that's intellectual honesty there because obviously
it is um but if they don't if they try and even defend that you know you're dealing with people who are just so hyper -partisan they're not prepared to even look at an obvious wrongdoing by their side and admit it's wrong because they think it's weak.
What about the regulation of your emotions during that?
I've heard you say that you're not a particularly emotional guy.
I think you've cried once or twice over the last decade or so.
Yeah, I don't cry. Which is less times than Hunter Biden has committed crimes, actually, if you look at his current record.
But yeah, even you must feel the heart rate rise, the cortisol levels.
What about that? What about staying cool during - Very important for me to stay cool, but not to lose passion sometimes you know you can take people on and you can show some fire in the belly when you when it's something you care about i've done that a lot through these war periods when i felt that particularly
i feel people are being just crass and completely insensitive to things then i feel the blood boiling a bit but i come back to the best debates are where i have people from both sides and they take on each other and i just ringmaster it and try and have a viewer at home in mind who genuinely doesn't
have a horse in the race but really wants to learn more about what's happening that is where I think we've become a really powerful show yeah it's like Jerry Springer for the 125 IQ generation well I knew Jerry Springer very well Jerry was a host on America's Got Talent for a year two years I mean and we
lived in the same hotel in LA the Beverly Wilshire and we used to hang out by the pool and we'd just chat Jerry was a fascinating guy he'd been mayor of Cincinnati he'd been a news anchor for 10 years of a serious news program And then he got asked to do this pilot for a show.
He thought it was terrible, but it was so popular that it became the biggest show on television.
He thought it was terrible.
Terrible. Right to the end he thought it was terrible.
He said, I make the worst show on TV.
But he was also making hundreds of millions of dollars.
He was like Hugh Hefner hating porn.
Right. So, Jerry knew it was awful, but he also never talked down about the people that came on.
I thought that quite strongly about the Jeremy Kyle scandal here.
I was literally about to say that.
What happened to Jeremy?
What is Jeremy doing now?
He's doing great. he's working over at um at talk he does a show there i don't want to speak out of turn but i know he's got some big plans because he told me which are going to be in the news quite soon do you think he was due a redemption arc for the people that don't well this was basically the inquest
found he didn't do anything wrong right i mean he never had done i mean he had thousands of guests yeah one guest who came on who later took his life which is incredibly sad but as the inquest established it wasn't jeremy carl's fault and again there was a lot of snobbery about that show and the kind
of people who went on it these were working class people who wanted to go on that show and wanted to air their feelings right if you taking your argument if they all had iqs of 150 plus and were talking about feelings on news night we'd all applaud them for their their courage right i mean look i'd
say this to my american friends all the time the fact the word posh i've never once heard be used by an american no but class is so baked into the british system the british culture and there is this and snobbery it did almost feel a little bit you're right it almost felt kind of like a zoo for working
class people for middle class people to watch working class people yeah like oh you dance down get angry to give you never saw many contestants complaining about their experience or complaining about the show uh or contestants what would you call them uh the people who appeared or i don't know how they
would kind of contestants are wrong word felt like they were occasionally but obviously you just guess right so i never saw them complaining much about the way they were treated or what happened or they were all quite happy to have their moment on television and to air their dirty linen now you can be
snobbish about it and say well how dare you do that but i see smart people do that all the time i mean barely a week goes by without a major celebrity in the world uh emoting in some interview with oprah or whoever it may be what's the difference actually if you're emoting but you happen to be a hollywood
star or you happen to be a tycoon or the slishness of your delivery is really the only difference it's all the principles exactly the same you're just airing your dirty linen i mean if harry and megan do it with oprah i felt it was just a posh royal version of what you saw exactly the same it's exactly
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That's functionhealth .com slash modernwisdom What do you make of the state of the UK at the moment?
It really feels like we've got a lot of turbulence going on 2 million people voted for Signed a petition for Keir Starmer to leave Then this insanely surprising U -turn From Keir Starmer about immigration Saying that the Tories ran an open border policy All of the riots that we saw across the country
this summer What do you How do you come to think about it?
It's a country that you've chosen to live in.
I think that America has got its confidence back and Trump has been responsible for that, as has Elon Musk.
I think the little thing, the rocket's going off, right?
They're just instilling people a sense of America's firing rockets again.
They're taking us to the moon, maybe to Mars.
There's something heroically ambitious about the way that people like Musk feel and Trump being down there at the last launch with just great imagery.
He's making people feel confident again.
Mastery, competence, yes yeah in the uk there's no sense of that there's a sense at the moment of we're just existing and that nothing's really working that public services are decaying fast that we're getting far too many people coming in that obviously we need immigrants to work as a country but you
can't have a net migration of nearly a million people and expect already struggling public services to not struggle even more uh you just can't um and they said they'd fix the boats the boats i think more people are coming in than ever um but it's actual legal migration is a big problem bigger than the boats
issue and we've gone through years again going back to what we discussed earlier where you couldn't talk about this if you even raised an eyelid on question time about the number of people coming in racist you were racist uh in the same way that if you talk about trans athletes in sport you're transphobic
but we just and that all that has to stop but we've just seen keir starmer say uh give a two -minute statement which went ballistic on social media that the conservatives couldn't have gotten away with three four years ago could not have said that uh so two things has the overton window shifted uh yes
and secondly is this just a guy that's had two million people put a petition together for him going i need to do something to slow well i don't think it's that so much but he will certainly have looked at what happened in america and why trump won and he'll think if i don't fix the cost of living illegal
immigration and stop the woke crap investing my party i'm done for particularly if you've got someone circling like nigel farage who is the uk version of trump and he's a good friend of trump's right and farage is you know farage's views were considered extreme they're now considered increasingly mainstream
because he's been proven on immigration to be right right not about everything and some of the languages used has been in my view wrongly inflammatory but it's basic principle about if you don't have a border as ronald reagan said if you don't have a proper border you don't have a country uh that's
coming back to be clearly the case so we need to be to have an honest debate about this without people being called racist if they raise concerns about what is an obvious problem but every country wants to have some borders like what are you well you're not a country if you don't precisely correct elon musk
uh rumors a threat of a hundred million dollars to be tossed at nigel farage he and him had a bit of a run -in earlier on this year uh what do you make of that would you be happy to see farage get 100 mil from elon i don't think he can do that legally in our country someone was saying there's a legal
impediment to him actually doing that as a foreign get around it as a foreign citizen yeah look um yeah obviously a big effect on trump winning i think there's no question of that uh no i think elon's allowed to he really likes he's a free citizen.
But would it help the UK politics to have that position?
Well, he would balance it out because at the moment, Labour certainly have a lot more money coming in than the Tories in the last election.
So look, they all take money from people, right?
Some take money from very dodgy people indeed.
All of us pretend we hate it, but it carries on on both sides.
If they all want to give up all outside donations, fine.
They can't really afford to do that.
If the Conservatives are as dead in the water as people think in the UK, is reform where the attention...
Form's in a very, very good position.
I mean, Kemi Badenow's got to do something pretty radical and pretty quickly with the Conservative Party, or my prediction would be that Farage may well end up being the next Prime Minister, as Elon Musk has said.
I don't think that's a mad idea at all.
But he might be, by then running a Conservative Party, which has had reform flip into it.
That's where my smart money would be, is that they'll do a deal, they'll merge the parties, and probably Farage ends up contest in my next election and if keir starmer has not delivered by them on all his promises uh or any of them then he could be political toast i've had uh dominic cummings on the show
and he also he did a podcast recently where he talked about uh some theatrics i think he could say in government that there was sort of a fake meritocracy fake responsibility fake government he also said that cabinet meetings are fully scripted um based on what he says based on what rory stewart says
i don't know it really does not feel like we have the brightest buttons in the we don't we have a very mediocre tier of politicians now i mean you go back to the thatcher years and her cabinets um just packed full of very smart people uh tony blair's cabinet you know for a first two terms in particular
incredibly smart people people like gordon brown as chance they're just unbelievably brilliant brains um so i think that that's certainly true i think a lot of smart people particularly if they've made good money don't want to get into politics because it's just going to ruin their lives the worst paying
most negative boring in singapore famously they pay their politicians a million dollars a year do you know what the uh head of uk cybercrime wage was it was offered a couple of years ago 65 000 pounds yeah so why would you expect anyone of caliber to do that so we don't pay people enough for important
jobs in this country.
I would personally pay the politicians an awful lot more.
What they couldn't do is have any outside interests.
So I might even pay them half a million pounds a year, but I'd say you cannot have any stock investments.
You cannot have any outside business interests.
Rishi Sunak would be fucked.
That's, yeah, well, he would, yeah.
But in a way, I didn't like the fact that Rishi was stinking rich.
I was fine about that.
I think you don't make decisions then based on what's going to benefit you, right?
In some ways it insulates you from...
I wonder if a lot of Tories have not got seller's remorse about Rishi, actually.
I think the way he behaved after he lost.
He was very impressive in the comments after that.
I always liked him.
I think he made a few strategic missteps, but actually pretty smart, committed, hardworking guy.
And yeah, the fact he was rich didn't bother me at all.
But no, I think it's going to be very interesting.
I mean, I do think we're deliberately attracting mediocre people to politics now, because we don't make it attractive enough to attract the smart people.
The UK is second in the world in millionaire exits in 2024.
First in the world is China with about, I think, 13 to 15 ,000, and the UK is about 10 ,000.
But we are 3 % of the population.
We have more than India, and India is 20 times bigger.
We have the same number of universities in the top 10 in the world as America do, but we have one -fifth the number of startup founder entrepreneurs.
Why? Well, because there is not even bottom up.
We can talk top down what's happening in Whitehall, the hallowed corridors of Westminster and stuff.
But I think even bottom up, I'm from a Stockton, working class town.
And I saw some videos of Middlesbrough riots going through Acklam, like places that I know, places that I've been.
And just working class rage, people disgruntled.
And this, you know, sick - Well, hang on.
Okay. Let's talk about these riots for a minute.
Here we go. because that wasn't why they were rioting of course that's my point my point is they were rioting because they were whipped up by people who should know better and probably did know better into believing a certain set of circumstances had happened surrounding an appalling attack right they
hadn't it wasn't actually an illegal asylum seeker who committed these actions and so people were exactly in a way on a smaller it was a smaller version of the iraq war which i oppose so specificity i'll tell you why it was full on an entirely false pretext had saddam had weapons of mass destruction that would have been
justified had the person who perpetrated this crime being an illegal asylum seeker you're not entitled to commit violence but you're certainly entitled to feel rage so about that happening at a time when this whole issue of illegal asylum seekers you know coming in and taking over the country all that argument
they put forward it would at least to have had some validity that that was why they were angry even the premise wasn't accurate but everything about it was wrong right so the riots were whipped up by people malevolent voices who should have known better tommy robinson uh andrew tate and others took
on tate about this a few days later and that's a problem with social media now let's go further to when a lot of people were put in prison because they tweeted things that i don't agree with right yeah and i don't agree with that because it seems a ridiculous overreach and when you overreach to that level
where people are literally you know grandmothers have been put in prison for two years for something they put on facebook that's not a sensible response to this either if people are actually chucking molotov cocktails at an asylum seeker hotel yeah chuck them in prison for a few years but a granny gobbing
off on facebook come on is that what we're really about in this country There was the thing I realized when I watched those videos in Middlesbrough was a lot of the people that were walking down the street, there was a new build house with fresh windows.
And it was, you could tell because it still had that sort of tape papering over the outside.
And people were out in the streets going through a classic Northern terraced working class neighborhood.
And someone just picked up a brick and threw it through the window of this brand new house.
And that was the point where I was like, this has got nothing to do with the immigration, rightly or wrongly false pretext or correct pretext it's just this sort of well that would be an angry resentment to but to what well people having what you don't have and you and your fear and who knows what's
going on in these people's lives i understand the rage of people who maybe through the pandemic have come out and they've got no job maybe they've gone through a horrible divorce maybe they've got no money they can't afford to feed their kids their lives are shit and i understand they're going to feel
angry of course i do and there are by the way there are lots of people in this country who are in that position, lots, and you've got to understand what is driving that sense of anger and resentment.
I lived, half of my life was spent in that world, 50%.
I'm 36. I'd been there, I was there until I was 18, and then I left to go to university in Newcastle.
So I know these people, I know that culture very well.
It's like, it's electric.
It's like the air before a thunderstorm begins.
And it's this sort of ambient malevolence below the surface this disgruntledness but it feels to me like the UK has a very very sort of potent version of this great video that I saw this American that lived in London for six months and he describes the way that British football fans behave he's like
they're not just passionate they're angry like they will they would happily if there weren't police officers between hang on again again I know this was gonna happen they're like a fight mate let's not let's not overthink football elegance right I've seen them in action Most of them just like a good
old punch -up. They like a drink, probably some drugs, and a fight.
And they actually love it.
And to understand the mind of a football hooligan, you need to start from that.
It's not some great political...
I mean, even the normal fans, you don't need to be one of the hooligans.
Even the guys in the back row, they seem to...
Yeah, look, mob mentality can brew up very quickly.
Of course, I've been in football matches.
Do you think they're downstream from the more aggressive parts of the stadium, so to speak?
Yes, I think a lot of football hooligans...
I mean, look, when I was young, football hooligans dominated every single match.
It was pretty scary and thrilling at the same time.
i can't pretend otherwise when i was 18 19 watching battles on the terraces was exciting in a way that watching a ufc fight can be exciting um but i'd rather have the more controlled environment than having it happening on where it can spill over into your seat and now yeah now it doesn't but i wouldn't
over intellectualize the average british football hooligan who they might like to see themselves as political polemis with their fists but they're not most of them just like a good fight every day for over three years now i've started my morning the exact same way which is with Element in a cold glass
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You used to have, no longer, used to have a Twitter bio.
One day you're cock of the walk, the next a feather duster.
What did that mean to you?
Well, it was handed to my great uncle John.
It was a war hero. He got the George medal for heroism in the war.
Actually a brilliant story because he he was in the army in world war ii he'd been invalided temporarily out with some bad injuries and he was in a pub where he's been he's being billeted with his i think it was the irish regiment and a what a prototype german bomber landed in the field near the pub
and the guys all grabbed their guns and they went and had it out with the german crew because it hadn't exploded and they heard one of them say bomber bomber and my great uncle john jumped jumped in looked around found the bomb which was designed to blow up the prototype plane to the allies couldn't
get the information from it and threw it away into a pond where it blew up and he got the the george medal would have been the george cross which is the military version but at the time he was actually deemed deemed to be a civilian because he was invalided uh he was going to go back and it was actually
it was a battle of gravely marsh you can read about it it was it was the last time that british troops engaged an enemy in british soil and it was 70 years ago and they had the anniversary about this must have been 10 years ago my brother went down he was an army colonel uh with my grandmother whose brother
it would be and had a lovely day down in gravely marsh and that was the last time and he won the medal for that yeah it's just a great story and the other great part of it was he went to get his george medal up in uh up from uh buckingham palace i think it was from must have been from the queen i guess
and he went out the night before with the regiment got blind drunk came back told the porter outside i've got an appointment with the queen at 11 o 'clock he thought the guy was obviously just making this up laughed didn't wake him up overslept nearly missed it wow he did get it eventually so great uncle
john a fantastic Anyway, the point of the story is that he was at Covent Garden talking to a flower seller.
And the flower seller was imparting these phrases.
And one was, life ain't much, but it's all you got.
So stick a geranium in your hat and be happy.
And I'm not sure if the other one, the cockerel, my grandmother always gave me this phrase, one day I'll cockerel the wart, the next to feather duster.
But she would send it to me with pictures of a cockerel when I was going through a particularly good time just to remind me be careful because the feather duster might be around the corner very very good device so i'm not sure if she got that from uncle john but he certainly got a lot of his sayings
from this covent garden flower center so you know you've had a you say tumultuous turbulent some would say fun journey yes fun i mean i don't see it as turbulent as other people do.
Well, there's certainly been ups and downs.
How would you not let failure get to you too much?
Well, I come from the Winston Churchill School of Thought.
Success is going from failure to failure with no discernible loss of enthusiasm.
And he was the greatest Britten of all time.
But he had a lot of failures.
He had a lot of successes.
I love Michael Jordan's view about success and failure, is that he could remember making thousands of baskets, but he could also i remember the 26 times he had the shot to win a match and he failed and he said without that you never do the rest and i do you know wayne gretzky who i met in a new york restaurant
actually a few months ago fantastic bloke had a great chat with him greatest ice hockey player in history famous for the quote you'll miss a hundred percent of the shots you never take i have gone through my entire life with that attitude just have a go have a go see what happens sometimes it's been
spectacularly successful.
Sometimes it's crashed and burned.
It's okay. In the moment, how do you deal with sort of regulating that?
Count to 10, slowly.
Okay. Literally count to 10.
Literally deep breath.
However bad it is, whatever it is, I count to 10.
And at the end of 10, okay, now crack on.
There's nothing you can do about it.
There's nothing you can do about it what was the is there a particularly intense count to 10 or a particularly long one that comes to mind i mean look all the things that people know that have happened to me you know i've had moments when i've lost big jobs or whatever it may be um they always seem
worse to other people than they do to me in the moment i would say i i just literally do the count to 10 whatever it is i just think short of death or terminal illness everything is recoverable from it's entirely down to you i do think mental strength is the number one thing that you can have to succeed
in life look at donald trump right that guy has got the thinnest skin in history he'll react to absolutely everything but he also has the thickest skin in that he can take stuff that no other politician has ever taken and keep pounding forward and i i love the scene in rocky in the sixth film when he's
got the spoiled bright son he's in his 20s who hates being rocky's son and moaning and whining and he's just a spoiled little brat and rocky eventually has it out with him on the street he says listen life is not a you know a bunch of flowers or something he starts he says it's not about how hard you
can hit life is about how hard you can get here get back up and keep moving forward that's how winning is done and i love that speech so much my sons have it on and that's keep pounding to you as well right keep pounding right because something will happen but if you don't have the right mental attitude
to when negative stuff happens to you you're not going able to exploit the good stuff when it comes your way i remember calvin mckenzie the infamous but brilliant editor of the sun the only editor i ever ever worked for actually and i worked there for five years when the sun was selling like four or five
million copies and he used to rampage around from morning noon and night it was terrifying spectacle but it was in the paper cracker with great energy it was the days when papers were very very important and i remember he said you know that's the most annoying thing about you morgan after one tremendous
bollocking he gave me eyes bulging neck straining the whole thing he said is every because i've gone back in about an hour later with a good scoop so the most annoying thing is i can't break you every time i give you a bollocking you just come back quickly with a scoop he said i admire it and i hate
it in equal measure and um i do and i i i have always tried to be like that that i just think there's such wasted energy to wallow in misery or negativity or something as bad has happened to you i've always celebrated i mean mars the confectioners used to apparently celebrate chocolate bars that didn't
work because it was so rare that all their testing didn't turn out to be a success they'd celebrate the failure because they'd learn more from the failures i completely agree and it toughens you up you know tough stuff in life toughens you up i've heard you say things that feel terrible in the moment
very rarely are they always look back on the worst things have ever happened to you if you're still alive think about the worst things have ever happened to you how bad do they feel now and guess what you woke up this morning it wasn't as bad as you thought right so it's a really i think that's a really
powerful way to look at it think about all the bad however old you are 20 30 40 50 60 carry on but look back at the worst moments of your life the moments you thought you'd never recover from look where you are you recovered well like i say if you're dead that's that's bad if you're terminally ill that's
bad right but after that what's stopping you bouncing back other than yourself so it's entirely down to you just take my advice count to 10 then go out with your mates get blind drunk turn your phone off go on holiday clear whenever friends of mine lose a high profile job and it happens a lot in the media i'll
say the same thing i said turn your phone off and piss off for three or four months just go to a beach write a book lie down just just chill don't take any offer you're given for the next three four months because your head won't be in the right space at all it's the best advice you can give anybody
clear head it's weird that you know in the moment it does feel like everything's going to it's this huge whirlwind and the chaos is occurring and you're overthinking and so on and so forth but you'll probably just end up working it out like you always have yes but i do think we are not training young
minds the right way i felt very strongly about this for a long time i've seen what would that look like well i see so many with my youngest son in particular his age group have a lot of anxiety issues and i've been wrestling with why and i read jonathan hate's brilliant book about mobile phones you
know cell phones and how actually since 2010 the incidence of anxiety and depression in young people has massively accelerated so there's a clear connection between phones when they went smart and they are smart but they're also very dangerous uh on impressionable young minds and the effect it had on young
people and i want to really tackle the anxiety epidemic that's what it is i think they're being exposed to way too much negative dopamine all day long on their phones they are seeing imagery from gaza from ukraine that we never would have been able to see when i was that age ever you couldn't see it
you were protected newspapers wouldn't put that stuff in the paper the two or three news channels on television wouldn't put it on air there was no internet there were no phones how did you see it you couldn't see it if somebody was eaten by a crocodile in florida right on a golf course you didn't even
know about it now you're watching the video of the guy from someone's camera phone being eaten by the crocodile so that's not going away well it's not going away but look at what australia's done with banning social media for under 16s i agree with that and it's not a free speech issue it's a brain it's
a free the brain issue would you support that in the uk i would actually yeah i do think that social media of under 16s is dangerous i do because they're not regulated like a newspaper or a tv network they're just not look at twittery all day you think it's regulated it's not look at facebook is right
no they're not right that they are putting way too much bad stuff on there.
And because they can't control it because of the sheer volume of stuff coming in all the time in real time, because they can't control it, we should control the access that impressionable young brains have to that material as we would anything else.
And I think that's a really important thing.
I've seen the reaction.
It's quite interesting, the reaction to Australia.
Well, it's quite split.
Like I've seen people on the right and the left agreeing and disagreeing, which makes me think it's an interesting debate to have.
I don't know. what do you think of it I've got four kids so maybe I would back it I would back it all day I mean I'd be tempted to back it up to 18 I just don't like but the argument here is you can get married at 16 so how can you get married at 16 but not use social media to your 18 yeah exactly well
why are you going to find your wife you know what I mean it's not going to be at work it's going to have to be using social media exactly but I think 16 is a good age limit my daughter's 13 I don't think her life gets benefited at all in the next three years by being exposed to everything that's on social
media yeah What's next for you?
Well, I want to make Piers Morgan Uncensored the biggest YouTube channel in the world.
What does that mean?
Plays? Well, I would say at the moment, yeah, I think the potential for a brand like mine to expand the brand, to bring other people in, a bit like the Daily Wire.
Create a network. Create a network of uncensored people doing uncensored things, YouTube channel, books documentaries merchandise one of my favorite stories of daily wire is that they have some running with an advertiser about hair gel or something so they launch their own hair gel line razors chocolate
it's making like 10 20 million a year right um yeah i'd have a bit of morgan merch um but i think the potential for what i'm doing and what you do is obviously potentially massive this was the first youtube election in america where more people watched analysis and election coverage on election night
on YouTube than broadcast or cable news.
Also, the first podcast election, where one candidate did endless big podcasts and YouTube shows, and he won.
What if the 2028 debate was hosted by Piers Morgan?
Yeah. Why not? Why not?
You get a bigger audience.
No question. Love to do that.
I'd have. I would love to do that.
I'd watch it. Piers Morgan, ladies and gentlemen.
Piers, I appreciate you.
It was very good to catch up.
Good to see you. We need to leave.
go and do your show now we do good to see you and you
