#827 - Whitney Cummings - Why Is Everyone So Emotionally Fragile? | Modern Wisdom

I was putting in my body before and how much better I feel now that I'm not.

The Botox thing was more of, you know, you can't get Botox when you're pregnant.

And once I was pregnant, I couldn't believe how much better I was all of a sudden communicating.

And I was like, oh, this must just be because I'm compassionate now in a terminal and like I'm connecting with people more.

But we're designed to read micro expressions.

And I look at all my past toxic relationships where we had like trouble communicating or, you know, I expected the person to read my mind or just like know what I meant on my face or something.

And they mean while you've got a stone face.

I know. I'm just like, no, what do you mean?

Everything's fine. Like, I just am now like women are, and man, I think are having a harder time communicating than ever.

And we're just adding more and more things to make it more and more difficult.

Like Botox that literally stops you from having facial expression.

Correct. Correct. And so I was like, let me just stop because also, look, I've blazed my entire body in my 20s, I have no pubes, I have no nothing.

Like if I don't have any wrinkles either, I'm just going to be attracting better files.

So what I do. Like also, what kind of person wants to be with a woman with no pubes and no wrinkles?

Like that's, I think, Epstein Island's closed.

But like, you know, I don't know.

The more I think about this, the more I'm like, I'm just deciding to become the most authentic person.

Even if it's someone that I'm not 100% proud of all the time, so that I don't attract the wrong person.

I think this is something that, you know, I realized is that we put on this thing to try to attract as many people as we can, but we might attract the wrong person, you know?

Like the guy that wants a woman with like no wrinkles, like, do I even want to be with that guy?

You know, I stopped, I mean, I'm on your show.

So I had to wear a little makeup.

I would don't want the comment section to be too brutal.

But I stopped wearing so much makeup, you know, which I always thought like, oh my God, this is going to make a man attracted to me.

But it's going to maybe make the wrong man attracted to me.

So a lot of that. I also have this weird obsession with how into me men were when I was pregnant.

It made me like love men in this weird way.

I just saw a different side of men when I was pregnant.

And I think this thing of, you know, men don't want, you know, don't have like caretaking and whatever it is, like whatever bullshit I got from my mom programming me because I came from a lot of bad divorce and I was, you know, fed this narrative that my dad was this monster and this like, you know, they were both, you know, had a lot of work to do.

But I just, and I had a son, you know, and once you see a little baby boy and you like, they start out so innocent, you're like, how do we get from this, you know, to such a toxic place?

And I'm fascinated. It feels like even when we were speaking last time, you were kind of in the middle of softening up a lot.

And maybe this is part of a big arc, you said last time, you know, you'd spent two decades really grinding.

I needed to kind of prove to myself and then realize that all of the proof that I gave to myself was for everybody else and I actually hadn't changed anything internally and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Blah blah blah. I mean, do we have, I mean, blah blah blah.

It is a pretty good impression of me actually.

It's literally the sound of your fucking thing, isn't it?

Bad, bad, bad. Blah blah blah.

It seems that the British equivalent, that's the British way.

Am I just like the teacher from Charlie Brown?

Yes. Correct. That's correct.

So it seems like a big softening for you.

But I think that, you know, we're, and we were kind of texting about this a little bit, like, you know, as soon as I was, you know, conscious, I remember being like, I'm at war.

I come from, you know, alcohol, a comb, I saw fighting.

I saw men and women fighting from the jump.

And then I was, you know, I come from the generation where you walk home from school when you're seven, you know, and I was taught, don't talk to strangers, you know, you're, we're at war, you know, and then I played sports and it was like, I'm beating, you know, I'm at war.

Great. A healthy type of way to channel that instinct.

And then I go to school in Philadelphia and it's like, you're walking home from school, you're at war, self-defense.

You're just taught like, it's, you know, dangerous to go to your car.

It's dangerous to do anything.

You have to fight with men.

You know, I had a situation, a situation with, you know, a man and I shouldn't have been in the situation.

That's on me. I don't know how to get out of relationships.

No one tells you how to get out of relationships.

All we learn about is how to get in them.

And I didn't know how to get out.

And this was before I had done any recovery work around co-dependence and I still erroneously thought, I don't want to hurt this person.

So I'm not going to leave them.

That's like almost sadistic.

I don't want to hurt them.

So I'm going to waste their time.

I don't want to hurt them.

So I'm just going to pretend I still like them.

I mean, I just, I didn't know how to dismount.

I was too afraid that I was going to break his heart, he'll be fine.

He'll find someone else, the narcissism of thinking that if you leave someone, you're going to decimate them is beyond.

Or these days, I see a lot of men that are like, I'm afraid to break up with this person because I'm worried she's going to tweet about me.

You know, I, that's a different fear.

We'll get to that later if you want.

But I was just terrified because I was, you know, taught that breakups should be long and nasty and hard and just unnecessarily, you know, sadistic and masochistic, whatever.

And then I come into this business and it's, I'm told like you're a woman in a male dominated field, you have to fight tooth and nail everyone's your enemy.

And I was like, all right, I'm at war with everyone.

That was just kind of my default state.

I was taught, men were my enemy.

And I think I was my own worst enemy, you know?

So it took me a second to kind of just go like, I don't think anyone's trying to hurt me.

I think I'm looking for that because that's familiar and comfortable.

I think there's almost also an element there too that the way that women compete is not in the same way that men do.

So there's some really interesting studies around the amount of physical affection that women on the same basketball team give to each other versus men on opposite basketball team.

Women on the same basketball team are less physically affectionate than men on opposite basketball teams.

Fascinating. So when you look at lots of the arenas in which men learn how to kind of formalize this is have conflict, have competition and then kind of do it within the bounds of a game of some kind that not that it's less serious, but that there is this ability to kind of turn it on and turn it off.

I wonder whether when you enter mostly male dominated space like doing stand up comedy and Hollywood and shit like that, whether you just don't have the same kind of learning that you would have done had you have been a guy that had had that genetic predisposition and then grown it playing a ton of sports.

It's co-alitional warfare practice within but you're just kicking a spherical object around or whatever.

Totally. That's very interesting.

I mean, I was just talking to someone about this this morning is the thing that matters the most to me is class and grace and sportsmanship is one of those things.

I played basketball where if you didn't look the person that just beat you in a championship in the eye and shake their hand and mean it, you were doing 50 suicides.

So I come from that. I come from maybe almost to a fault that I'm like, because I don't want anything I don't deserve.

That's just my kink personally.

We see a lot of people that just want what they want.

They want to skip the line.

They want something fast.

I don't want anything I don't deserve.

You can make a bit of a chip on your shoulder with that as well though, right?

Because once you've done it and you've come up through the ranks, you then want to kind of prove to everybody, well, I earned this the hard way.

I did this and look at all of these male comics they fucking didn't want me here and I did it and blah, blah, blah.

And that also doesn't come off as particularly classy either.

So there's all of these little snakes that you can slip down.

Yeah. I think the older I get after having a kid, this is kind of crystallized is, you know, to me, the between, you know, whatever time anyone goes to bed, nine and ten at night where I'm laying there on my pillow, can I live with myself and am I corny?

And am I someone that I would make fun of or roll my eyes at and in my cringe, you know, and I'm in this, you know, 12 step program, Alan on ACA, codependence, anonymous and you sit there and you do something called a tense up every night and you go through your behavior and you kind of look at yourself as if you were yourself watching yourself, give yourself a little judgment

of like, do I own apology there?

Oh, should I have said that?

Was that necessary? Should I say what I mean?

Me when I say and say it mean?

Ah, that was a little caddy.

Did I need attention in that moment?

And yeah, I definitely shy away from any of that.

I did it the hard way because everyone's already made up their mind about us.

That's also like a wild realization to have.

And when you're trying to convince someone to see you a certain way, you just come off desperate and needy and you have to know when you're cemented too.

You have to know when you can like chill a little bit and go away and that's something that having a kid really helped me with as well.

There's an idea called tilting windmills, an online stranger doesn't know you.

All they have are a few vague impressions of you to me get to form anything but a phantasm.

So when they attack you, they're really just attacking their own imagination.

So there is no need to take it personally.

We're kind of these like projection machines, you know?

It's like who I am to you is an intersection of sort of what you saw today and your entire past and your experience.

I'm so fascinated by the fact that I'm so indifferent to pretty much everybody.

You know, I kind of, you say like a personality, raw shock test.

I know. Like this person sees you as that, that person sees you as the other.

100%. So going back to kind of what changed from a role perspective, this sort of softening thing, obviously you made lifestyle changes.

But was there this, you know, existential personality, my position in the world has changed.

I was learning about what's that idea like the obsession of self or something that you talked about?

Well, yeah, the narcissism, you know, of what I do.

I just wanted to be a standup comedian for living.

I want to make people laugh.

And then, you know, the, you know, business evolves and all of a sudden we're like, hey, guys, hey guys, it's just me, me, me, all the time.

And I realized like I was like, am I, how is my self esteem getting lower?

I'm getting everything I want.

I'm paying my bills. I've achieved my goals.

Like, how is myself worth falling?

Is this from the comment section?

Is it, I'm, turns out I'm just thinking about myself way too much.

I actually like myself when I only think about myself like an hour a day.

But when I think about myself 24 hours a day, that's when myself was new in plumbits.

So now having a kid, it's such a joy to not have to think about myself so much.

I also, this is going to get me in trouble.

Fine, that's my brand. I do believe it's okay to say women are caretakers by nature.

We're good at it. And I think that when we don't care, take children, I'm not saying every woman needs to have a child.

I know plenty of women that I hope never have children.

You guys pushing this narrative women need to have kids.

You've seen them, right?

Some. Some. Do you want all of them having kids?

Some. You and a lawn and all these guys saying like have more children.

I mean, I know a lot of women that I'm like, can someone tie their tubes?

Please unpack it. Well, I mean, people sort of point to Kamala Harris and say, look at the sort of like childless cat lady thing.

Right. I mean, do you want that screech as a fucking child growing up in the home?

Yeah. Do you want a kid being told they're different ethnicity every day?

That would be very confusing.

Okay. I grew up in an alcoholic home.

I don't wish that I knew.

Yeah. I'm not saying she's an alcoholic.

I don't know, but those speeches are wild.

And for me, I found myself mothering adults, groups of people, even concepts.

You know, I'm not attacking, attacking the left or right.

It's more, I see women that are identified as liberal, progressive, and they don't have kids.

And I wonder if that will need to save this minority group.

We need to save Ukraine.

We need to save Gaza. We need to save a child.

Kind of. That's really interesting.

Because now that I have a son, I go, you know what?

I can just make this the best man I can.

You know what I mean? This I can control.

I'm not going to be able to clean up Gaza, Israel.

I'm not going to fix Hamas with a tweet or a march.

But I can control this. And this might make a difference, actually.

I'd love to see the constitution of the people tweeting about stuff, supporting things, going out in protest.

Now, we'd love to see how many of them have got kids.

And it's mother, right?

I need to mother this group.

I need to care. I need to protect this group.

You know, I mean, that's like, you know, I think that whenever someone's protesting or whenever someone's like coming out, you know, a lot of times it looks like virtually signaling self-righteasing to nation fine.

But I'm like, is the root of this?

You want to mother something and take care of something.

And it's like, you know, this group needs help and needs support.

I need to be an ally. It's like, I think I kind of just needed to be a mom.

Has it changed your relationship to men, your understanding of males generally now that you've kind of got one on your side?

Yes, of course. You know, look, the word feminism has gotten so ridiculous at this point, but I'm working on a bit about how it's impossible to be a feminist and a boy, mom.

Because it's like, I believe that women, you know, do have horrible things happen to them, but also they lie.

And, but that's also about equality.

It's like you can't say I'm a feminist, men and women should be equal and say, okay, by that, women are just as destructive, just as conniving, just as, you know, brutal, just, you know, so I think for me, I do spend a lot of time going like, this will be interesting.

Am I going to have to teach my son about consent?

Like what is this going to look like?

And I very much less so see things about men versus women now.

And it's just more good versus evil.

And I don't think it's men versus women anymore.

I think it's good men and good women versus bad men and bad women.

That makes any sense. You know, but also just seeing, sorry, I'm just coming in hot with this.

I think that the wildest part was deciding whether or not to circumcise my son.

That's, you know, and I did defer to his dad on it because I just felt like the right thing to do.

As an English person, this is not something that we really have to deal with.

So I think I mean, I could probably pull up the stat.

I would guess somewhere in the region of single digit percent, guys that aren't Jewish in the UK would be circumcised.

And I'm going to guess that it's maybe not far off the inverse here.

In the United States, it's automatic at the hospital.

Like you have to actively say I don't have the umbilical cord loose the fucking.

Truly, that's it. I mean, it's just a match.

I'm going to take other extra long paraces.

Well, I did have to have that too.

I was kind of circumcised during birth.

That's a different conversation for another day.

But I, I mean, if that was reversed, how insane would that be?

You know, and you know, Rogan talks about it a lot and you know, he, I won't, you know, play dry as him here.

But I mean, he really does think of it as mutilation.

And I looked at all these like studies, which again, look, whoever puts their word circumcised baby in a study, I already have questions about this study.

It's like, it's like these study, but you know, you know, you do the certain text, you know, but it's like, you know, when they're like, you know, women mature faster than man, I'm like, who needed to do this study?

Who was like, you guys, let's do a study about how young girls are more mature?

Like did Epstein fund this study?

Let's be honest, you know, like there's, what's the new thing of how um, babies taints are shrinking because of microplastics?

Right. Okay. I thought that I thought who did this study?

Who is measuring taints?

What are we doing? I looked at one.

So yeah, the, uh, you call it taint.

The between your, yeah, the, it's a taint.

Yeah, the, I think it's a no genital gap is technically what it's referred to us or the gooch in the UK.

Much better word that it's a gooch.

It's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good job.

Yeah, what it is, it's better, it's better describing the area that we're talking about.

But yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's not good.

But penis is getting bigger a little bit.

Are they? How do we do it?

Is that for microplastics?

Uh, they're not sure. They're not sure.

But sperm count going down, testosterone going down, analgenital distance decreasing.

Penises, a little bit bigger.

How do we know who, who was doing the study?

How do we go again? Okay, am I wrong?

Yeah. Well, who's measuring penises?

Did anyone ask you to be in the study?

Who's doing the study? You are like the conspiracy bro of every psychology study that's ever been done.

I would think about study.

I know, look, I respect studies and all, but I used to do studies when I was broke.

I used to sign up for studies.

I had no money. I had $50, they'd be like, are you depressed?

Come to the study. I was like, I wasn't depressed, but now that I've to go into a study for cash, I guess, I qualify it.

Whatever you want. Totally.

But it is always going to be college kids.

It's going to, you know, I just like to know who, you know, because a lot of medications, you know, am I and I think it was, didn't test on women.

So the dosage was off. Like there's certain, you know, that's what happened to Rose and Bob.

That's one of the things.

Yeah. There was a few things.

There's two things. It's a conversation.

So you chose to, you decided to go.

I chose to do it. Yeah, because, you know, there's an argument to say that the sun should look like their dad, you know, when they like change or take a shower or that kind of thing, that's an argument.

That wasn't the argument here.

You know, I also was there and it was to nested ties and I had a very specific search and do it.

So there was really no pain because that's the other thing.

It's like the trauma of the pain associating that with them.

I was like, I don't want my kid to, you know, be a serial killer because as a mom of a son, every serial killer's behavior is blamed on the mom.

It's like the mom didn't let him wear the pantyhose, you know, or we're such a shit, sir.

It wants to be respected.

Okay. So if I say money, while you respect it, if I say money, I'm disgusting.

If I say a car, I'm disgusting.

If I say a good job, I'm disgusting.

But if I say I respect him, I'm an idiot.

I know a good set of shoulders.

I don't know. Well, I respect that.

If you put time and energy into respecting yourself, I think.

But I always think that whenever I talk to my guy friends and girlfriends, if you're gossiping about your person with other people, you might not respect that person.

I found that in the past, if I'm like, yeah, is this normal, is this better?

Or he did this in the bedroom?

I'm like, oh, I don't respect him enough because I'm willing to share this, you know?

All right. It's an invasion of privacy that you're opening up because you don't actually care.

Exactly. Yeah. Or it's like, I don't respect this person.

Now I'm going to let everybody else have this thing in their head that he's a goof ball or whatever, you know?

So I stopped. If I found myself doing that, I would just end the relationship.

I'm like, oh, that's the first indication.

I mean, I'm gossiping about my person.

I really think that no matter, I mean, I always tell my girlfriends, I don't want to hear about your guy's porn addiction.

I don't want to hear that it was texting with another girl because you're going to break up if you're already telling me that.

Well, how many, just thinking about sort of the actual public, French showing of this, how many podcasts are owned by Spotify, abort by Spotify?

Girl talk. It's girl talk with fucking Cindy and Lindsey.

And all they do is talk about their one night stands and what happened.

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inside inside So where is this coming from?

And it seems to me it's the drive, it's this need if I do this, then I will be wanted, needed, accepted, validated by the world, not abandoned.

And this is why it's so tricky because the difference between kindness and codependence is the motive.

So if I drive you to the airport because I'm like, well, I want crystal like me because I want him to put me on a story and I want him to tell other people that I'm cool and I'm trying to control trying to make myself feel safe and I'm using you.

Right. That's to humanizing you.

Right. That's to human You know, but if I drive you to the airport because we're friends and I want to talk to you and I want to hang out with you and you owe me nothing in return and I'm not keeping score.

That's just friendship and that's just service and that's kindness.

But it's one of those things where it's like other people can see if you're addicted to drugs other but in codependence you have to fucking do it yourself.

You have to hold yourself accountable.

You know, because ostensibly I might look like the nicest person in the world but a lot of times if I'm overgifting like I brought you a gift and I don't know if I'm going to give it to you.

Like I'm trying to decide if I should give it to you.

This is a real thing. This is where codependent because I don't want you to be I don't want to make our relationship transactional.

You know what I mean? And I don't want you to be like, well, now I have to give her something.

It depends. You know, am I going to keep score?

When someone's overgifting.

Am I doing it to make you owe me?

Am I are we entering in some kind of toxic contract where I've given you this thing and you know, it's actually it's really interesting.

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Does this mean that a lot of the time if you're unwinding your co dependence that you're actually going to become a worse person in terms of your actions before you become a better person again.

I think you'll become a worse person to people.

That want to use you and you will become a better person to healthy balance people.

So when you get healthy, the sick and angry.

So when you start, you know, taking care of yourself when you start putting yourself first when you start giving 50% in a relationship instead of 90 10.

And then it'll feel to I don't I'm not a doctor.

I'm not going to you know diagnose people but borderlines and narcissists, you know, selfish insecure people are going to go like, oh, so you're just ignoring me now.

Hey stranger wherever you been.

Let you know. So once you stop a lot of your codependent behaviors, there will be a little bit of a backlash, but then you realize, oh yeah, these relationships were codependent.

We were using each other.

I was using them or, you know, once I went to recovery for codependence, I realized like most of my friends, I didn't like them that much.

I just like didn't know how to say no.

And I did a lot of things out of obligation, you know, and I think it's probably better.

And part of the reason I'm getting tripped up is like, sometimes it's better.

Just use specific examples that are helpful.

So, you know, before I went into recovery for codependence, I would get an invite to a birthday.

And I was like, I got to go to this.

I got to go to this birthday party.

I got to go. We got to swing by.

And then another friend, another friend's having birthday.

So I got to stop at this one.

I got to stop at this one.

In the implication there is like, if I don't go, what are they going to cancel the party?

Like, they're going to be like, where's Whitney?

Like, it's that I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe thing.

And because when you keep scores a codependent, you assume everybody else does.

Oh, that's interesting.

You know what I mean? So if you're the person's like, oh, well, Kristen, try to put my party.

Okay, noted. I'm assuming that other people behave like that too.

Chances are they would not even notice that I didn't show up.

And I'm the person showing up the party.

I'm here. Okay, well, I got to go to another party now.

And I'm like, cool. Sick philosophy on life.

Just dragging yourself from party to party and making it about you.

Like, why have to go to another thing now?

And I was like, awesome.

So no real friends. Just a bunch of acquaintances that I felt obligated to, you know, run around and please when I wasn't even pleasing.

But I'm the person in the party who's like, can I help you clean up?

Can I do this? Like, I didn't know how to just be enough and begin a conversation with someone.

And, you know, here, here are some of the like, you know, slogans that I love because it's a simple program for complicated brains, right?

We have complicated brains.

Before you try to solve a problem, first make sure it's your problem.

That like blew my mind when I first came in.

It was a go a friend of mine is going through a breakup.

I need to go over there. And I need to start helping your packer stuff.

So she, it's like, why am I solving someone else's problems?

And then my addiction was to get out of myself instead of checking out with drugs or alcohol.

I was like, I'm going to check out was I'm going to use someone else's problems to disassociate and to get some self esteem.

That's how low myself a steam is that I need to go.

And then I need to get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way.

And then I need to get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way

and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way

and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the way and get out of the kind of just move through the things and the assumptions and the voices that come up inside of me.

And I remember when I was doing CrossFit, I was maybe 27, 28 and I hadn't done as much self work as I have now.

Any time that my heart rate got above probably 161, 165, so you know, zone 4, not even, you know, top end zone 5 stuff.

Any time that my heart rate got above that.

All of these weird voices would appear.

All of these sort of negative sort of, sort of, sort of, very zero-sum mentality, threatening, frustrated, bitter, resentful, angry.

All of these voices would start coming up inside of me.

I was like, why the fuck is that coming from?

I was like, oh, you're threatened.

You're threatened by something at the moment.

You're in discomfort. And your go-to-default is to derigate yourself.

It's to feel like somebody's mad at you, to feel like you've done something wrong, to have this sense of sort of foreboding, this ambience, sense of anxiety and threat and discomfort.

You need to control it. And getting yourself too far outside of that.

And you can pick whatever it is.

For some people, it can be staring at a wall.

For some people, it can be meditation.

For some people, it can be, you know, learning a hard piano.

Whatever it is, the like, modality of discomfort, I think, can be anything.

But certainly for me, it just opens up so many of those interesting insights.

And that's why I understand why it's fucking like, oh, you're more comfortable being uncomfortable.

I'm like, the lessons are there to learn.

But also, like, as a recovering cotipendant, like, our comfort zone is, you know, martyring ourselves and we're very massacistic.

So a lot of my recovery is being like, no, you don't have to hurt yourself.

No, you can sleep eight hours and not feel like, you know, guilty, like you're using garbage and you're like a big thing with me is you're falling behind.

Like, if I take a nap, it's like you're falling behind, you know, and which might be true, but fine.

And, you know, I think that it's what this program does or any kind of recovery, red coat dependence, at least you're able to sift through your inner monologue and figure out what is helpful and what's not right.

So instead of saying this isn't healthy, this is healthy, that's pathologizing, go, this isn't helpful.

This is helpful because I think a critical inner monologue is can be really helpful.

I'm the same with negative YouTube comments.

This is not an invitation.

Don't embarrass me in front of Chris, please.

But sometimes like when people are like, they're mean to me in the comments.

I'm like, does it only hurt because it's like a little true.

That's what that's when it, you know, so for me, it's like I get feedback for a living, the audience decides what I say ultimately and then I'm like, I don't want feedback.

It's like, well, audience decides everything else, like, you know, and so I look at comments and I'm like, you know, that's actually true.

I need to be able to take that.

So it's like, if you can't take criticism, that to me is the ultimate because we are in a, I know someone wrote the book crisis of comfort, whatever it is, we get our Amazon delivers things to us.

We get post me. I mean, like, you know, I think we're kind of designed to be a, you know, hyper vigilant at war at all times.

And now we're in a place where we're getting all of our needs met and we got to start these little wars everywhere, whether it's with your ex, whether it's, you know, online, whether you're the person writing, Yelp reviews about some family own restaurant that the food wasn't leave them alone, you know, we have to sort of, you know, sort of do this, whether it's an adrenaline

addiction or whether it's that human nature thing, you know, but I think that, you know, the new discomfort is being OK with hurting someone's feelings because everyone has has become more sensitive, you know, and just stating a needs plan.

Yeah, I see men, I see men walking on eggshells around women in a way that I'm like, do you think I'm going to sue you?

Like what's happening, you know, and I do it with women too, where I'm scared that, you know, and it's taken me all this time in recovery of codependence after having a very historic mom and being scared of women for so long, I go into a program and I'm like, no, you can be a drag with women, they can handle it, you're insulting them.

And then all of a sudden now I'm like, if I'm like, you know what, I'm, you're going to need to come into work in person today, you can't work from home.

And then it's like a, OK, so if you could just go down there, I'd really appreciate it if you were just like zero access.

And then if you could take it over to Lindsey's office, like, I'm sorry, it's so far away, but if you could just go do that, maybe then grab yourself some one.

And then the person walks away and it's like, I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing.

I have no clue because she just tried so badly to make me like her or not be mad at her.

Or like I felt guilty asking someone who gets paid to go make the Xerox to go make the Xerox.

I don't like it's just bullshit nonsense communication.

And this is why horses are so valuable or prey animals in this space.

Old road sleep back to Iquan Therap.

I'm telling you because horses interpret the fear enough, they don't have codependence, they don't have people wanting to like them and anxiety about other people's opinion.

So everything to them boils down to fear, fear that you're not going to like me, fear that you're going to go away, fear that you're going to reject me.

So any of that with horses, they just, if you're alone with them in a arena, they'll just move away from you because your energy is a mess.

And I don't think we take responsibility for our own energy anymore.

I'm obsessed with radical self accountability, truly just it's exercise just everything's my fault.

Let's just play in this for a second.

What if everything is my fault?

Like what would that look like?

And then what can I change so that I can control on my side of the street?

Because we're also like another way to know if there's codependence in your life or addiction in your life is like how much are you blaming other people for things going on in your life?

You know, forget that you're in a financial financial situation where you have to blame the government.

That's real. You know, people can't buy houses anymore.

You can't get healthier.

That's fair. You know, that's a fair thing to blame.

But to just go like, well, the relationship didn't work out because he did this and he did this.

Like, so you had no nothing to do with like nothing in a sense in every single situation.

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And mw20 a checkout. Is there a reversal of that where people take too much responsibility for everything they make themselves the martyr they make themselves like it's because of me it's always because of me because I mean sufficient.

It's because I did this worry if there's not something to worry about.

And then it's like, oh, you're worried that I'm the like you they think you're like sick.

Like this is a sick animal.

I need to get away from it because it's it's scared for no reason and they move away from you.

And and they're kind of right in a way, you know, and I think that you know for me.

I was moving through life with if I'm just make myself small just so other people shine and if I don't outshine other people and if I just like make sure like I'm people pleasing and shapeshifting to be whatever other people need me to be I'm going to be okay and they're going to feel okay and everything is going to be copicetic and then you do that with horses and they're

like get away for you can't be in this herd.

Like you're a danger to the herd.

Your self obsessed you feel fear when there's no danger.

So for you have to felt that feeling fear when you're just picking up a horse's foot safely is weird.

It's weird, isn't it? You know, it's weird to be like I need to break up with this person and I'm scared.

Are they going to hit you?

We you know feeling fear under those circumstances is very bizarre and maladaptive, you know, so horses train my brain to go like, you know what?

I can't be results oriented here, you know, and we go through life being still results oriented based on what we think is going to either make us happier what should happen we go on a date being like this should be the love of my life or you know it really helped me going on dates being like it's all just practice.

If something great comes great, but we have all these sort of results that we need attached to it that then make us feel like failures, you know, it seems to me there's sort of two things going on haven't fully thought this out but it seems to be the same patent in a lot of stuff that I'm learning about the moment that there's there's two things happening.

There's one which is your capacity to deal with the thing and there is another which is the environment that you are working within and you can kind of play about with both so on one side you would say I am going to be more brave I'm going to be more courageous in my communication.

But what you're doing there is overcoming an amount of discomfort there is also I shouldn't feel this amount of discomfort where is the discomfort coming from and there will be times when you need to use the bravery but there will also be times where you go okay when when I'm in wartime when it's a really big deal when it's I've tried to be screwed over by a business partner

or this person that works and I think that's the thing that I haven't done or whatever you know I need to fight for my corner that's the time to use bravery and courage but what you want to do is basically bring down the level of stimulus that you're feeling ambiently to the point where you don't actually need to call on bravery and courage all that much because I just

feel comfortable being direct and being open so it seems to me that the sort of two elements going on here one which is like wartime fuel and one which is like a peacetime policy.

And I think for me I think this is a response that's helpful but for me and in a tool that people don't talk about a lot because we're all about how to go go go how to perform how to like is in its an aphorism I know but like don't just don't do something sit there don't just do something joy and self compassion are regularly outlawed by an internal tyrant who decides what I've

been flocked enough for one day just when I'm about to collapse a voice inside says okay give him half an hour of peace before bed but make sure he knows will start again bright and early in the morning and all of a Birkman also English cause it productivity debt that basically he has to justify his existence every single day in order to stave off some ill-defined catastrophe

that otherwise might come crashing down on his head.

Few things are more basic to my experience of adulthood than this vague sense that I'm falling behind and need to claw my way back up to some minimum standard of output falling behind what I think I think the key is to have really specific definitions because I think the vagueness you know vagueness is you know always the enemy of clarity always the enemy of happiness

I think vagueness because once I'm not flying behind I find mine what because a lot of people look at me and they are jealous of me so what who Julia Roberts like whom I even comparing myself to I think you also have to get real clear on what your goals are so we can even measure if you truly you might be but I think that sometimes we self sabotage by having this vague idea of what we

want accomplish just like what world domination like what do you want you know how much money do you want like because for me I'm like if I keep succeeding and succeeding but my mentality of I'm falling behind I don't have enough I'm not good enough doesn't change that's on me like I'm I'm yielding the thing and then this is just an addiction it's one too many a million not enough

when will it be enough you know and I think that it's take me a long time to realize like my goals have been so vague on purpose so that I can continue to self-flagulate and to justify being able to be like see you can be doing more you can be getting more you can have three TV shows like and it's like well I didn't set goal lists specific enough to even know if I'm coming in over

with extra credit or if I am failing I couldn't even tell you if I'm failing I'm just making sure I always feel like I am to justify this behavior towards myself which is the same way you justify drinking or self-harming or whatever it is it's kind of mental self-harming right one of my friends gave me a quote the other day general ambition gives you anxiety specific

ambition gives you direction how did you just pull that up like what is this it's just that's the perfect quote it's just apple notes but I just have a lot of I have a lot of smart friends so yeah I just you know that kind of addiction to work into this this needs to always be being productive and sort of contributing and stuff and I think I've got human coming on the show

very shortly and within this week and we spoke about this last time I spoke to Andy Galpin his colleague I guess about this to the perils of over optimization and I do think that we're seeing a swing already back away from that and we're seeing even people like Andrew or you know even the most actually the only guy that doesn't have this I was with Brian Johnson on Sunday

another like swap blood with his son lived until he's 150 guys yes so did this breakfast with he's the only person who is absolutely sort of how do you say unyielding there was an episode you did on I believe on here and I don't know who it was with I'm talking about like what is the point of living forever if this is how you live right kind of thing yeah and here in my look

I said dear dear friend and I love and I allowed to joke about him if like are you fathering the world the same way I was trying to mother or the world you know it's like it not that it's I mean it's life is working out great and he's happy but he truly is driven by like I want to give free health care to like that's wild you know that's a wild motivation and you know look it's

like there's a lot of people in podcasting that are having such a big impact I can't imagine how hard it would be to walk away from the drug of actually helping people you know updated a yard doctor before and he would I'd be buck naked on the bed he'd be like I got to go back in the work I'm like that is knowing you can go save a life I can't even imagine you know so you guys are in a situation where you're

kind of this big brother uncle father to all these men that I think are very lost younger boys that are very lost in women too women love your podcast and how do you stop well I think you know what break we're just seeing this the pendulum is swinging back I think in a way that was probably needed from over optimization and sometimes the kind of early warning alarm is actually

that you you realize that it's totally unrealistic to anybody to have the perfectly optimized day and all the rest of it and the more that were not leaning into the only way to do it is this this is the absolute this is the only existence that you can go for I think that that makes life a lot easier so I think also with a world that's very out of control I see a lot of people

needing some kind of control I also think that the less we are in the religion the more we have to create a new religion and I think optimization is like kind of looks like a new religion in a lot of ways right it's like you every morning you have your routine and you say whatever is your meditation you sleep eight hours you have your energy going to your ice bath you go into

your sauna I mean I don't always think it's a bad thing you know I think sometimes we're addicted to over pathologizing ourselves to it's like if it keeps you sane if you're not hurting anybody and like you're taking care of yourself and setting good examples and not committing any crimes like what is it hurt it's interesting that you say it's a sort of addiction to

control because there's definitely a kind of fragility that comes along with people who can only perform if they've done this weird rain dance before they actually go forth and do the thing I can't just get up and start working I can't just get up and raise my kids I need to do my affirmations and I haven't done my my five-minute breath work and I haven't done my 10-minute

meditation and I haven't been my son and so forth you think that in an attempt to become more resilient you've actually made yourself way more fragile interesting that is fascinating and I think that you know I don't know and then you're how much of it is disillate I think that's also something that any kind of a time a program is rooted in some kind of recovery it's

like or you just trying to isolate because isolation is where addiction thrives you know so I go like I'm just working I have to work work work and I'm like oh god I think I just got myself again I found a way to justify isolating I have to go away to a cabin and write for three weeks and not talk to anyone because I'm such an optimal if you heard of monk mode you know that is knife

no okay so it's steady and no it's kind of like imagine no fat but for your entire life no fat no fat fat no fat so like not wanking but it's for every no joking off yeah it's got nothing to do with that I it doesn't work if you don't know the thing I'm referencing the original reference doesn't work if the second anyway it's focused on the three eyes introversion isolation and introspection so you

go away and you relinquish all social obligations for a while you basically focus on improvement or a good chunk of time you know six to 12 months as a guy and the point is to try and go away not have the distractions and the motivations that often come along with being in social groups and having to adhere to social like obligations and then you re into the world now having

done all of this work one of the problems is and I saw this in myself I saw this in almost all of my friends that have had really successful monk mode periods is that the isolation becomes a dicting and it is a way to help you feel noble in your retreat from the world it's not that being in social groups makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable or that you're scared about rejection you

find it hard to make friends it's I'm doing monk mode bro you know you're sort of got this very regal upon my high horse better than you version and monk mode unfortunately can be very dicting and there's a real problem that guys have reintegrating after they've done it so there's three eyes but there's actually a fourth which should be integration or reintegration and you

know there's every time that I speak about this loads of people say I did the monk mode thing I'm probably a little bit introverted and I know exactly what you mean I really struggled to just get myself back out into the world after I focused on working on me and that's kind of the same as the addiction to being in the cabin in the woods or whatever you go it's you doing the thing

which from the outside looks like discomfort but from the inside is actually home base and then when you try and rip yourself back out what would really be uncomfortable would be you going out and saying hello to three new people at a party that would be real discomfort for you and now you're able to fill noble in this sort of isolation which was let's be honest your

home base all along right right that's fascinating I love this like you know it's I think that my fascination has always been how our brain has not had an opportunity to evolve neurochemically to you know catch up with how quickly technology has changed things you know like where does you know we used to need to fight we used to need to you know I come from apple latch

I don't know what's the apple latch equivalent in England I'm not really too sure what apple latch are is apple latch in America West Virginia Virginia Tennessee and how would you describe well I guess the way I would describe it here is very low income okay so I mean any of the northern working class town so where I yeah where I came from T side Middlesbrough which is it

was famous only for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK and then it lost that so I didn't even have that anymore which is a fucking L big L I need to get back over there um get some teens pregnant yeah and can I just ask one question um also knowing what's it all for is my kink just bettering myself for me because I think I'm such a piece of shit and I want to have a better

inner monologue is it because I derive dopamine from pride and my behavior and I'm trying to prove someone wrong you know I did realize like sometimes unhealthy motivations can provide really positive results right so when people talk about a friend of mine texted me the other day about jealousy and I was like, dude I it bother like I'm like give me someone to be jealous

of like that is my gets me going so hard we can call it healthy competition jealousy is right and V and jealousy or or little more toxic but I'm like healthy competition is something that really drives me and I really appreciate it you know when it comes along um when someone like that David Goggin sing like I mean when people talk about negative comments I'm like thank

you guys it kind of drives me you know because I'm like I got to get that person that hates me I got to get that person like I got to prove them wrong you know I'm kind of into that you know and I think we're getting to a point where we're trying to solve every problem to me I'm like well there's certain I don't want to solve because I do use that for fuel and I do kind of need that for this and if I

solve all my problems that I'm just going to make new ones right that's what I feel like I'm seeing I see like especially when people who come after comedians they're like that's not funny and that jokes and punching down I'm like it must be nice to have such an amazing life that you don't even need comic relief because comedy is for people whose life suck and who need

an escape from their own brain they need comic relief they need the laughter that's the best medicine you don't need any of them that's so sick for you I would never want to be in that situation right because I would rather have real problems than the fake ones that I see people with no problems making up just to create chaos there's certainly an element of it one of the patterns

that I realized I was encountering when doing a lot of personal development was it allows you to not face low self esteem in the moment because you know that you're always improving and hey and I just to just go up and be like are you okay and of course you're like as my Bartha and I got kicked out of a bomb whatever but it just I was like that was so selfish to just go up to someone

else and get a little hit of you're not a narcissistic piece of shit and I think we don't talk enough about service it's a small thing you can do it in a positive way and you can do it in a sort of malignant way as well you can do it in a way that is to manipulate or to seem like a good person or to this is what's so fascinating about that codependence thing which is it really all

is about the motivation or the motive on the inside which is difficult because you think well I'm doing a good thing if I'm doing a good thing if this is me doing something nice for somebody else are you doing the right thing for the wrong reasons yes yeah because sometimes you do the wrong thing for the right reasons you know if you need to fire someone if you need to break

up with someone whatever it is you know but you have to be your own you know judge jury and executioner and be like I'm not doing this for the right reasons you know what I brought your present today I'm like why am I bringing this what am I do I I really wanted to give it to you this thing and I you know I just really have to watch that and that's a little game I have to play with myself

because sometimes I go into autopilot you know a really good friend Christina Pizzinski is going through a health thing and I've been on this website to send her flowers every day and I'm like nope not sending her five-dollar flowers I'm going to call her what am I doing with these flowers what she need flowers she wants flowers she'll have flowers in her house it's

little you have to check yourself you know and that's something that I think we spend so much time thinking about ourselves but not in a objectively like I don't want to say critical but like holding ourselves accountable type of way am I going to send her flowers so that if she doesn't immediately send me a picture and say thank you I'm going to be like okay am I victimized

am I trying to create a situation where I feel like I'm unappreciated in victimized am I just trying to ruin our friendship or injecting yourself into the suffering of somebody else to show just how important and charitable you are that's it I can also go hey let me know if you need someone to watch your kids for a couple hours I can be of service do you know what I mean let

me just drop something off or how I'm just making am I making it about me am I giving her a chore so that I seem like a good person I know this sounds like I'm overthinking it but these little tiny things are like the death by a thousand cuts also this is kind of the system to thinking that then allows you to pull it across into system one right that when okay I have this pattern

and it's probably pretty malignant and I need to spend a very focused period of time maybe a decades working on doing it very consciously until hopefully there's a part of me that starts to bring this across into my nature so yeah doing it deliberately I understand exactly what you mean I had to redefine the word nice and kind I didn't know what those words meant I'm

just trying to be nice well you don't say I'm being nice like is that nice what's that nice well no I got you the saying okay thanks so much you know I it took I think that we've grown up I'm not coming for English people I've been doing it in English man there is such I felt that so much this like guilt and shame that's just imprinted I don't know if it's you can't shine too

bright or you have to just self-flagelate I'm not sure if that's regional or what this person was taught from Tottenham or like Tottenham was that a thing fucking American person tries to understanding that yeah it's a thing he rooted for Tottenham does that mean any he must hate himself well I mean he just that it's a football could be from anywhere in the country

go on but I think that there's a difference between you know being self-flagelating self-deprecating and humble and I think that this whole self-deprecating thing I remember one time is a huge red flag insecure people are dangerous that blew my mind because we're kind of trained of feel sympathy for insecure people but you got to stay away from those people for dating

a girl or guy who's like you know a guy is like my calves are big enough I need to go to the gym that's a dangerous person get out of there that person's not happy with themselves they're not going to be happy with you right if they can't get their own internal needs met internally you've got to get out of that situation if a girl is insecure and be like I don't know if I'm gonna get

out of there don't be like I'm gonna save the day and make you feel secure just get out of there because like you're gonna be on the chopping block next and you're gonna be the whatever so I used to you know I think a big thing in codependence is you can flate love and pity that's a big one like if you're just like how do you know if you're codependent like do you feel guilt

when you're saying no to people do you feel shame you know do you whatever I just said do you remember guilt guilt shame but there's one before that pity pity do you feel pity for somebody you know instead of loving them you shouldn't feel pity for somebody and be in a relationship with them that's like a like a fucked up soul contract thing do you feel hooked by people

do you do things out of obligation you know stuff like that and I think that you know do you worry that a horse isn't gonna like you I mean that's interesting do you do that with humans though I think so yeah in some ways so that's certainly you know going back to time through school very much being on the outside very much being sort of bullied and and always being always

watching things occur watching everybody else be in friends watching everybody else play at lunchtime watching everybody else have you know support groups or whatever it might be and then not being that always led me to try and reverse engineer okay so what is it that I need to do in order to be accepted by the group and I think that that's just such a such a subtext

which I carry forward into normal life sure which is I love and and as I hear that I'm just going lucky lucky you lucky I mean I'm big on and I know this is fine I'm big on like trauma privilege you know of like you know in comedy we're always like if you were a girl that was molested it's like doping in sports you know it's kind of like it's like no you don't be in the same league

if you're molested it's like cheating you know it's like you have more adversity you know it's like I do think there's a point where we have to all stop being like but no one likes me in high school it's like well you're saying it on an interview on Oprah it obviously works pretty well you know there's a point where we have to take some of the wins you know it's like I was neglected

as a child and you know my parents were drunk okay well now I'm really comfortable entertaining drunk strangers thanks guys you know there's a point where we have to kind of just go like let's take the win on some of them and you know and also the horse thing it's interesting because I'm so curious about what your success has done because horses don't know who you are that's

the other thing is they don't know and they know nothing about you and I think there's a point where you go like you know in life where you're like oh I can kind of get away with more with this like I'm trying to make myself I can play this card or I can sort of have this artificial self-esteem because I know exactly what you mean you get kind of get this multiplier bonus for walking

into a room you don't actually need to be that funny you don't actually need to be that interesting I have not been sufficiently still I'm not sufficiently well known for that to have been a thing for me to actually embed it so Mark Ranson says that identity lags reality by one to two years and I think that that's true same with science right but science happens and then

it takes a year to be vetted and you know like is it still true and saps your inertia yeah yeah yeah yeah takes time for people to play catch up you mentioned before about this sort of mismatch technologically and psychologically between us this is my first election year in the US is this pace of you cross five and meme shift normal the pace that news is moving at the moment

seems absolutely absurd is this is this normal or is this an outlier interesting I think you know it's very unoriginal to talk about our like short attention spans I think the desensitization I mean is interesting but we're no longer talking about Trump getting shot in the year but we kind of still talk about January 6th you know what I mean there are some things that linger

in some things that are super ephemeral and I don't know why I don't have an answer well we weren't hot to ago Biden's senile Trump gets shot in the year Kamala is brat summer to Nancy Pelosi says that Biden should be on Mount Rushmore in the space of four and a half weeks and you're right it just seems so quickly like as the Trump thing is the most mind blowing to me I can't

believe how quickly people have gotten over the fact that the present presidential candidate former president got shot in the head and look this is not you know I'm Mark and Jason's probably the person to weigh in on this kind of thing I was talking to you were meant about this the other day you know of like you know anyone can kind of just say anything all the time like

is this on like social media companies to not expose us is this kind of stuff I see four people get stabbed a day on Instagram and I don't even sign up for it you know I'm now if I saw someone get stabbed in front of me I'm worried I would like laugh at it at this point you know it's like I think our you know idea of what is real and fake is is you know I think this is like a crisis that is unprecedented

and there's no way to you know it's when Will Smith hit you know Chris rock in the face and I thought it was a joke I mean people thought it was a joke I mean it's just like we were we don't even have a gut reaction to things you know the people that you know the you know again like freement you weigh on this but robots can't tell the difference between a husky and a wolf because of our

sort of just ancestral wisdom like your gut just tells you before you even know you know which is another cool thing about being around horses is they feel fear they feel earthquakes before like we have that body wisdom but we're just so disconnected to it we have sort of changed what it means to have a gut like if I say when I have a pit in my stomach if I see you at a bar I

call that butterflies that's your body going like not to get out of there you should not have a pit in your stomach when you meet someone we've decided that's love like we've turned things around so much you know like I just worry we're like our gut is gone or I wonder whether it's because everything just feels so unreal you know we are by by design detached from you know

you've seen that assassination attempt from a hundred angles and twenty different reconstructions from a company that does fucking 3d modeling 8 CGI shit and it's still I still kind of doesn't feel real and yeah I don't I think that that's something that we should be concerned about I think it should be concerning that viscerally people aren't impacted by this stuff

more but I suppose I should maybe answer my own question here which is if you were emotionally or viscerally impacted by all of the things that are meaningful you would just spend your entire day getting ripped around you know it's it's tried and there's been said a million times the human mind is not meant to consume the entire world's news 24 seven on a daily basis yes

we're not built for this velocity and volume of information or the way that it's portrayed to us with the you know horrible language and the inflammatory rhetoric and all of that stuff and that I think felt like a it felt like an interesting thought experiment I wasn't experiencing personally and I wonder whether this is what that little theory coming into land actually

feels like and I think like look I mean Neil postman's amusing ourselves to death always worth reading in this you know space I'd be so curious what he has to say about this now and I think I always go look up a comedian I'm not I don't do it you do I'm not a scientist I'm not a sociologist whatever but I look at things from a you know contextual point of view like is this the new

Darwinism like again the people that are the most to sensitize you know are the least likely to survive like you know I try to limit my exposure so that I stay sensitized I would like to stay in a place where if I see someone get shot in the head I I think it's awful yeah I would like to continue thinking that I would like to keep myself sensitized so I have to go out of my way

to do that you know I have to go out of my way to you know play defense but you know I think this was all kind of by design I mean that guy from Facebook came out and said like this is designed to make you like that you know more horrifying in the more comments and the more clicks you know and we're just kind of book you know people like the robots are coming I'm like I think we're

here with this part of that so the algorithmic stuff and the kind of stickiness of these platforms makes sense it seems like even the incidents or events that there are to talk about are occurring at a more rapid rate and maybe this is just because we're ramping up ready for November 2024 election and and and all that stuff but I just can't I can't believe how quickly

everything seems to be moving it's absurd yeah I mean I it was always happening it was just never covered right is it you know I mean it's you know four years ago it didn't feel like it was this quick and I wonder whether going back to the January 6th with the only interesting thing that I said around the Trump assassination was will the media say that which day will the media say

was bigger deal in American history January 6th or July 13th and it should be I think when the president was needy assassinated I think you know if you were to just say to a representative group of Americans a president you don't get to know which party from was shot in the head but survived or a group of people stormed the capital building which one do you think and I

would guess that you would actually lean toward the president side of stuff because the implications of that occurring is actually graver and it's just I don't know I don't know maybe it's to do with the media cycle maybe it's to do with the fact that it was Trump but yeah there's just there's a further and a pace to everything at the moment which is it feels like like

fucking holding on to a roller coaster yeah I mean I think that I you know I think that there's also a I did a you know have things changed since I'm in pregnant like I did a mass unfollowing a mass muting because we are just like we have to protect ourselves now you should be like seek out news now we have to actively protect ourselves from it you know I do like shelling burger

I do like Jessica Kraut like I'm very specific about you know the same way that you know people are specific about what they put in their bodies like I try to be just a specific about what I put in my brain I'm like if I was half as careful about what I put in my body I mean food wise then what I put in my brain imagine you know so I try to go like what is the media diet we're doing

today I think have to your body is made up of all of the things that you put inside of your mouth and your mind is made up of all of the things that you put in your ears and your eyes and your content diet should be spirulina for the soul not fast food for your amygdala because this is how they win I mean it's a they and I know that sense the non-binary person that runs the world

that they yeah I think it's important to just like play defense and then make sure you're like choosing the people you surround yourself with wisely like I think where a lot of people are their social circles are changing because I'm like I just if I hang out with someone I don't want to hear about this you know the I did you know there's and I think again I see things through

the lens of addiction also so it's like I think that politics is becoming more and more of an addiction social media rehabs are you know opening up for social media and then when I'm in that I'm like oh shit dude I am addicted to this thing definitely feels like a soap opera it's a real world very adrenaline it's a WWE meets the Kardashians storyline that's being played

out with real world consequences so there's actual stakes you know the problem the reason that WWE works is that there's a title on the line and that you care about this fighter and that fight or any I like him because that no no he did this thing and you know the good guy in the bad guy in the swap and all the rest of it but they're trying to artificially create a reason for you

to care you genuinely already care about this but I wonder how much of I had this idea about why people use such dehumanizing language about anybody when they get past a certain level of celebrity Jordan Peterson's a good example of this that he you know people say regardless of what you think about Jordan awful things about him going through drug detox and all the rest

of the stuff and I think the reason is that I love that he's sober and those are still the suits he wears I'm like said that he picked up he picked out that suit when he was on math right no that's the sober she's saying and people say these things because I don't think that they they really don't connect the fact that there is a human that they're talking about it this is a is an amalgamation and conglomeration representation of ideas

or philosophies or archetypes or a movement or something he's just this this tip of the spear that is a whole host of story and and whimsy and bullshit but there's not a person there and people it's it is dehumanizing but like in the purest form of the word are you on wi-fi yeah there is a movie called an American crime I'm just going to mess up the details and this is about Catherine

Keener played the woman and it is about what happens in the herd mentality when one person starts to behave a certain way of using someone how everybody joins in and it was in 1977 right is what when the trial was 2007 was the release date of this movie but it's a bat based on the true story of 1965 16 year old Sylvia likens and had disabled 15 year old sister Jenny left in carababla blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah I hope they don't start but this is it but this is a real story real story based on a true story about a woman that started abusing a young girl that she was just caring for in her basement and all the kids in the neighborhood started coming by and physically abusing as well cutting her hitting her punching her

and she eventually died no one said anything to anyone and it's a it's used in psych classes to talk about sort of the herd mentality of when people are glomming on to like a punching bag and participating in violence like this Lord of the Flies mentality in our brain of when you sort of like you know what is that called mob mentality you know and I think that's kind of what happens

I think that's you know our primordial brain being like if I participate in this I'll be safe right yeah well this these riots going on in the UK at the moment I sent you that thing that I wrote which is kind of interesting I don't know there's the situation in France that happened recently there was a ton of riots that were happening there I mean it really is impressive

for America to be the least kinetic of the and after they shot the fucking president in the head and you we actually haven't seen I was surprised by that there wasn't more more genuine protest that didn't seem to be that many demonstrations yeah everyone's unfit and all how are they going to protest good good everyone's stone or unfit that's a good point I wonder what would have happened

or how different that would have been whether we would have seen people go to the streets if Trump's head had been a little bit further to the right but yeah I don't know there's if we watched Trump's head explode on television I mean it's it's in incomprehensible I mean it's it's very rare that I'm speechless you know but the fact that there were tweets even if there

was one of a person saying like I don't they missed like guys what's happening like where did our like did we ever have empathy was this always JK like or are we the same savages that you know 200 years ago we're stabbing each other with with swords it's not aided by the fact that Trump kind of does have a larger than life personality he does have this sort of W.

W. He literally was in W.

W. W. So this sort of unreal nature to everything that he does in any case he doesn't it doesn't seem like a normal like he's not anybody that anybody knows the rules are not a plighting yeah yeah but then when when you see a fucking what's a face saying that's Pelosi says Joe Biden is a Mount Rushmore kind of president and that we should add him into the monument you go

well you're not a real person either and I just Joe Biden so yeah I the whole thing is I mean look and this is like you know goes back to like the introduction of television like now it's about charisma like the running for president used to be about connections and money you know now it's of course about money too but it's like survival of the most charming maybe because you

have to go charm people to raise money and you have to be charming you know and I I always find it interesting like what people respond to on a human nature level and Trump does this brilliant thing where we ultimately are attracted to people who are fearless I think at the end that's what we want we're looking for daddy daddy alpha alpha where is he and Trump just goes

yeah Rosie it almost fat and even if it's rude or distra who cares we just go fearless and then you know the you know Joe Biden or whoever Hillary is like no I think clean energy we should have clean energy and we're getting rid of coal mining which she thought was this like genius progressive thing to say had no idea what she was saying if you see the documentary Bill Billy

then you know instantly Trump just goes to West Virginia and says like we're never gonna stop the call I mean coal miners right so I think that word we don't care who you are as long as you're authentic and I think that's cool I actually think that's kind of cool and I think everything's gonna have to change because it used to be like how much can we trick people into voting

for us how much can we bullshit people in voting press and everyone's like can we just get this person who runs the best Costco to be our president we don't give a bit you know it's like Trump the how did this billionaire managed to make working class people like him because he just said we don't believe he's full of shit yeah even if he is he has a fearlessness and we're

willing to fall fear is very unattractive right now I think to people you know you sing this arc happened with content as well you know Mr.

Beast going through it at the moment because of one of the people on his team but what what so this is this there's can't wait Chris Tyson I think or Ava Tyson I can't remember how it works properly I'm sure I'll get cancelled either way trans person on his team has been rumbled for sending dodgy messages to underage people in discord and using language does it seem it

doesn't seem at least from what I've looked at that there was anything that happened in person probably nothing illegal but some pretty unethical kind of one of his employees yeah one of the people that's in a lot of the videos and but the reason that I think Mr.

Beast in particular is kind of a very precarious moment with regards to that is that people were already starting to push back against this very contrived very curated very sort of limbically hijacking type of content and then you look at a lot of the stuff that people are actually enjoying spending time on and it's people like coffeezilla who is this investigative

reporter thing he doesn't live far away smart right smart guy smart guy and you know a lot of what he does he seems to kind of be unencumbered with what he's got very high production value and he's got this sort of very cool virtual studio thing but he you believe that what he's saying is what he believes and Sam sulek who is this fitness influencer guy doesn't have fancy

thumbnails no fancy editing no nothing it's just him and the camera and he goes to the gym every day and records what he's doing in the gym and talks and he's kind of a bit socially awkward but very charming yeah and guys live for this guy because again we believe that he believes the things that he's saying we have faith and in a world of I think that this is basically kind

of like a Instagram reflex that for all of the curation and air brushing and filters for a very long time what people are craving now is something that just feels authentic yeah and as we are spending less and less time around people in the real world who are authentic and can give us that sort of sense you know if you have a if you have a eaten a shit diet for a while and there's

just this part of you that wants a carrot I just fucking want a vegetable I've never craved a vegetable in my life but I apparently now my body just knows better yeah and I kind of think it's the same I think so much detachment and so much curation when it comes to what we watch on the internet that we're trying to supplant the real world stuff with the online stuff has I

also think it's important to remember that when we try to get something over on someone or when we try to mean what we're do when someone lies to you they're basically just saying you're dumb you know I mean you're just saying I'm dumb you know and I think that you know right now people are so savvy now I mean not with I I saw Justin Timberlake's mug shot start to move the other

day and I was like always like I thought it was for sure but I think that as things get more and more fake you know the idea of someone just being like yeah I didn't really like the Barbie movie you're just like I don't even care what anyone thinks I just I believe that what you're saying is your actual opinion and you don't think I'm so dumb that I would buy it if you're like

I liked it I mean you've got a girl wings is amazing feminist director and I'm like you just think I'm an idiot don't you you know what I mean it's like when someone's late they're basically I'm I'm fascinated by what someone's actually saying by their behavior that they're not saying when someone's late they're basically saying like my time's more valuable than yours

that's what they're saying with their behavior right and when someone lies to you you know it was like Hillary doing all that stuff she was just like I think you're all dumb by posing with Kim Kardashian and Katy Perry she's like I think you guys are so shallow and stupid that you would vote for me because Katy Perry has cupcakes on her tits next to me at the DNC or whatever

you know what I mean so I think that people go past what the people trying to get attention are actually saying and they can feel like what's actually being said which like you're dumb you're dumb yeah which guys I think have got a very reasonable group of people to follow them but you also realize I could have achieved this or maybe even more and who would have been the plays

and who are the downstream sort of who is the channel accumulating because there's no such thing as making somebody unsubscribe what you can't do that on especially on YouTube so you go okay if you start to build up an expectation from your audience that this is the sort of content I'd say that you you go really hard on Israel or you go really hard on fucking China or whatever

it is some topic which is more controversial than why was the president shot you actually think well what is the future version of my life that I'm creating by doing this thing now so it's not just about chasing metrics this this cool idea called the McNamara fallacy so Robert McNamara in the Vietnam War statistician who believed that what couldn't be measured didn't

matter he charted progress in the Vietnam War by body count because it was simple to measure it was his way of keeping score but his focus on what could be easily measured led him to overlap what overlooked what couldn't which was negative public opinion of the US Army both at home and in Vietnam which deflated US morale while boosting enemy conscription in the end

the US was forced to withdraw from the war despite winning the battle of bodies because it lost the battle of hearts and minds thus the McNamara fallacy as it came to be known refers to our tendency to focus on the most quantifiable measures even if doing so from our actual goals put simply we try to measure what we value but end up valuing what we can measure love it so you

might cut this out fine people coming you know rumbling in the comments of humor and protocols or two strict or heberman whatever the you know inevitable backlash that someone so popular I think it was because he had Mark Zuckerberg on I think I think that that's just a little thing that gets in the back and you're like oh wait he's in the elite he's in the aluminum like

it's just kind of like wait a second a little I think it had nothing to do with that now James Franco I don't know his accusations I don't know what's going on with his career or anything like that but I know he had a couple things happen rumblings they went away and then he won in a golden globe or something and then all of a sudden boom accusations people coming for him

and I remember watching and going I know I think I know why that happened his brother was in the audience and his brother didn't want to come on stage and he started pulling at his brother you know what I mean being like come on come on it was kind of like why are you why are you forcing your brother to do something doesn't want to do it was like this weird little thing do you

remember when Taylor Swift was doing that weird sort of celebration that somebody won an award I think that it's that kind of mask slip moment it really is kind of that's it nailed it you nailed it it's that kind of thing where I go like I remember when he was interviewing Zach and I was like uh oh no no because now he's it you're going to come off like a lead us people's association with that tech

you know nefarious don't trust I mean Facebook is I mean arguably for a lot of people it does help you know the zook rebrand though that's been strong you compare that to pretty much everything else now he's got a beard and he's wearing a cool long necklace and he's just like at MMA fights like where do I stand what's happening yeah yeah yeah yeah but I'm saying things

like that like I feel like little things make a big difference I mean I'm like I don't know what happened after the Peter or T.O.

with the Kevin Spacey photo but I was like ooh if people start to go like I don't know about this protocol and like it's not about that it's the Spacey photo very interesting yeah I well we're just so interesting and rightly so and so very skeptical of lots of people but you know I think this is uh certainly a skill set that I need to get better at which is you mentioned before

if somebody maybe say something things about you or if somebody starts to move as competition or as rivalry or begin beef or whatever you have this sort of fuck you I'm going to come get you mentality I have a much more uh oh I was in the wrong their opinions rights this is a problem with me this is the way that it always is etc etc so I'm much more likely to take somebody else's

negative opinion of me and turn it into a very opinion of me uh so I think that but you consider the person giving the opinion never but it's an opinion yeah and the other people are always right and the opinion of me is always wrong always have this girl with nine face piercings at Starbucks like her like that's the other thing is like if you're gonna take criticism from someone

first make sure it's someone whose life you want and whose judgment you respect you know that's the other thing it's like you know someone online can say like you're a whore whatever if the guy with says it I'm like well I'm listening you know whatever but you know I think that that's the other thing it's like I think that that all of this is about gray you know like in the in 12

step programs it's all about being in the in between and it's all about the truth is somewhere in the in between you know you have a criticism for me I have a like the truth is somewhere in between you know and I think to be able to I think intelligence and maturity and my show is so amazing is like giving people the opportunity to go like okay there's a spectrum here and let

me just like figure out the truth because my inner model I can't totally be trusted this person's assessment can't totally be trusted and let me just like you know these two things converge gently figure out like what the what the truth is here because if I'm choosing to believe this then I'm choosing to hate myself if I'm choosing to believe this person then I'm engaging

in co-dependence. But there's also a reason that we like that degree of certainty even if it's in somebody else you know a certain criticism may be better than an uncertain compliment in some ways because at least there's an answer yeah at least I don't have to sit in this like unsure fucking super position what that hasn't been collapsed down to actually give me

an answer you know what I mean have you done mushrooms now it just in general yeah okay because I'm like because to me the hardest part has been in the in between for me and the uncertainty and being able to go and this is why I'm on this thing I'm like who did that study I don't know I like to hear more about who funded who funded the study when did they do this it's like the food

pyramid that was like once funded by like general mills or something you know like we've been hoodwing by so many studies without knowing who you know made them stuff like that I mean we thought soy milk was healthy for like 20 years and now like none of my friends have tits and all my guy friends have tits like it's like a nightmare and so I'm kind of in this place where I'm

like able to go like there's just no way of knowing there's really no way of knowing you know and being able to surrender to that is kind of this like really freeing thing you know because I feel like I get my emotional safety from this is that trail you know and what world would I have the truth like in what universe would I have the true you know so I think to be able to sort

of like liberate yourself from like needing to know the answer right now you know because it's like hopefully I'm going to be a different person tomorrow hopefully I'm going to change my mind every day because that means I'm going to be smarter every day I hope I'm not the same person in five years when people like you changed I'm like I would hope so when people like

you're getting older I'm like I hope that would be how it works you know and so I think that for me it's like leaning into the things that I used to think were a failure on my part and going like oh my definition of intelligence was totally different it used to be you know everything and now it's like I know absolutely nothing I can tell you a bunch of stuff I've memorized

I can tell you a bunch of stuff that worked for me yesterday I don't even know if it worked would work today next time I come on your bagus fingers crossed I might be like hey everything I said before totally like I would hope so you know and I think that everybody finds different information at different times in their lives where it really works for them you know and so there's

things that like blew my mind 10 years ago changed my life that now I'm like well not so much true but like it was intelligence at the time you know so it's like this fluid thing of like you know we're talking about gender fluidity fine let's talk about like intelligence fluid like this is what it means to be intelligent today like you know I mean the answer to you are going

to be like yeah I don't know like I trust that person I trust the person that says I don't know I'm unclear it's premature to know the answer to this you know and like I've thought about myself too much already today I need to take a break so we might not even know the answer today the truth of somewhere in between I think that that's like the healthiest place but we're all

trying to like find safety like what's the truth what's the truth you know but it's it's actually fascinating because it's like we don't even trust our own eyes anymore you know and we question everything about other people as soon as Trump got shot everyone was like it was an inside job it was a that and you're just like what about your inside job yeah well certainties

are used as a proxy for expertise you know if somebody doesn't caveat if they don't say I'm unsure whatever it's reassuring to us but the problem being that very few things we actually do have certainty about this I think it were maybe you've even said this before this I think we're kind of accidentally stumbling on like modern wisdom of like the people you date the people

you work with the people you surround yourself with if they don't say I don't know in the once every hour I'd get away from that do you know what I mean when you got on a date with someone like my ex was crazy and my other ex was crazy and my other ex was crazy what happened he cheated like there's no like I'm not really sure what happened it may just it just wasn't a match no accountability

so you just know everything like it's I think that that's something it's taken me a long time because I've always attracted to people that were really certain and really dominant and really alpha or whatever that means these days and so I think now it's something to me that is such a I know this word is overused like red flag you know because I and people come to me for answers

now and I when I was go to pendant I was like here's the answer go to this doctor go to this therapist do MDR do this do this go to that I'm gonna fix your life and I'm like I don't know dude maybe do nothing maybe you don't have to go to therapy maybe you're fine maybe you're just like making a problems I don't know but I do think that like we a lot of us have to look at the amount

of problems that we need in order to feel important or useful or feel like victims and just go like you guys we might go to war in a couple months like is there is there a fun is there any joy in any of this like I think that's the thing I see my son and I see him you know like kind of read I'm redoing my childhood a little bit with him and I just see the humans inherit desire for play

and I'm like whoa like remember that remember that because that's where are we doing all this to create a situation where we could feel that joy we're doing this to find the job to get the money and to find the wife or that or the husband or whatever and then we're here and if it doesn't work like what are we practicing what we preach you know what I mean you know and I joke

with Tim Ferris about it I'm like how's the four hour work week going you enjoy in those other 20 hours a day that you're doing push ups and set up like what like what are we doing it all for are we just massacres and we just want to like work work work or like because for me I had to really look at myself and I was like I'm like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just

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[Authenticity, Codependence, and the Trap of Over-Optimization]-[#827 - Whitney Cummings - Why Is Everyone So Emotionally Fragile?]

📋 Summary

The Journey Toward Authenticity and Disconnecting from Codependence

Challenging the "Crisis of Comfort" and Over-Optimization

Redefining Relationships and Communication

Navigating the Information Age and Maintaining Sensitivity

Embracing Uncertainty as a Path to Maturity

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Authenticity, Codependence, and the Trap of Over-Optimization]-[#827 - Whitney Cummings - Why Is Everyone So Emotionally Fragile?]

📋 Summary

The Journey Toward Authenticity and Disconnecting from Codependence

Challenging the "Crisis of Comfort" and Over-Optimization

Redefining Relationships and Communication

Navigating the Information Age and Maintaining Sensitivity

Embracing Uncertainty as a Path to Maturity

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🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

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