Welcome to the Allie on the Run show.
I'm your host, Allie Feller, and this is where I talk with people who are doing exciting things on the run and beyond.
From professional athletes and celebrity runners to the everyday amateur and back of the pack runner, we are here to celebrate everyone and anyone who enjoys a life on the run.
Whether you are running towards something big or away from something that's been holding holding you back.
I am here to hold your hand and help you pick up the pace.
My guest today is Des Linden.
Do you need me to introduce you to Des?
No, I doubt it, but she deserves an introduction.
Don't you think? Des Linden is the 2018 Boston Marathon champion.
She is an Olympian.
She is the co -host of the Nobody Asked Us podcast with Kara Goucher.
Now, Des is headed to the the trails in just a few weeks Des Linden will make her western states debut sort of she's dipping her toes in the western states world and she will be holding down pacing duties in this conversation we get to hear about how this all came together about Des's expectations in the trail and ultra scenes and about what's exciting Des right now on the morning of this year's Boston Marathon, Des announced, with an ad in the Boston Globe, a decidedly baller move, that Boston would be her final professional marathon. She is not retiring, but Boston earmarked and cemented Des'
legacy in the road racing world.
We had a lot to catch up on, so please enjoy this conversation with Des Linden.
Des Linden I would say fan favorite but really just kind of everyone's favorite uh we love you so much thanks for being here Des welcome to the Allie on the Run show for We Did the Math number 80.
Thanks for having me for the 80th time still feels like the first time so exciting happy to be here Allie.
Great to have you so we have so much to catch up on it's been a minute it since you've been here.
Fortunately, we still get to hear from you every other week over on your show, which I'm sure everyone is tuning in for, but we got to catch up.
So we're going to dive right in.
Des, how has life been since the Boston Marathon?
Pretty normal, pretty much back to normal.
I have a dog behind me chewing.
So if you hear something, I'm just going to put that out there now.
I hear it very loudly and I'm just assuming you are too.
But yeah, everything has it's been really really normal like I think there was so much of the anticipatory like what is this going to be like and projecting of like oh this is going to be so different and hard and terrible and none of those were the case um it's actually just pretty much life as normal I think there's some things down the line like when I watch fall marathons or Boston next year where things will feel very different but uh I took my normal two weeks off and then started training again like like really slowly and had a hard time getting back in shape like I usually do after Boston.
And, uh, and it's finally coming around now.
So that's, yeah, it all feels very, very normal.
When you pictured your final Boston marathon as a professional athlete, which I feel like that asterisk needs to be very big.
Like, am I correct?
There's nothing stopping you from running in wave one in the future.
That's like, that's in the plans.
I think that that'll happen in probably even next year, maybe.
So yeah, definitely.
Um, I'll still be there in some fashion.
I'm sure. Do you see that?
I don't know how much you'll be willing to share, but I'm obviously going to pry here.
Do you see that being like, I'm going to run Boston for me for fun?
Or do you see yourself in sort of a service role of like, I'm going to pace the two 50 guys and girls to everyone, but like the two 50 crew or what, how would you see that for next year yeah i mean i think that's like the cool part is over the next several years it can just be whatever i want it to be um the for next year uh ryan linden is chasing his bq in two weeks i guess i don't own this airs but at charlevoix marathon um so then i think maybe next year i would run with him and try to help him tackle his goals um or like i'm sure at some point it'll be be like, let's work together until this point.
And then we'll race, you know, like, so it'll probably get competitive, but yeah, I think right now it's like, what can I do to help Ryan achieve his goals and what he wants to do in Boston?
Assuming he qualifies, which he looks pretty good right now.
Yeah. I feel great about it.
Yeah. Yeah. He knows some people too, if we get, if we get to that point, but I think he's got this.
Okay. So in two weeks when he's running in Charlevoix, what's your role that day?
um support person I'm actually I'm writing a little bit of his training program and he's really trusting me with that which is crazy um so I'll feel a little bit nervous on race day more than just like oh he's out there and I'm supporting him but also like I gave him work to help him get ready um so yeah I'll be out there cheering and I don't know if I'll get it's an out and back so it's kind of hard to figure out like do I want to try and see him at different spots or is it like just wait patiently at the finish and see what happens so we'll see all right very exciting good luck ryan you got
this when you think about fall marathon season and i'm sure you've done more than think about it you might even have plans in place but when we talk about the big ones the chicago's the new york's where whether you're racing or not you're at those events does that stay the same does that change um i think that'll kind of stay the same i think Right now I've had conversations about being in Chicago, whether it's for the podcast or other things that I have to do out there.
And then I'm actually coaching a celebrity for New York.
So I'll probably be out there to watch him as well.
So yeah, I'll have obligations still.
I'll be out there. Based on the fact that you said a celebrity and not a name.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you going to tell us the name or can you at least give us a hint?
I think it'll be announced mid -July by Brooks.
Um, but he's, uh, I guess, I don't know what a multi hyphenate, like he does a bunch of stuff, singer.
Oh, oh, so not like a bachelor contestant.
No. So much more, which I mean, I suppose he could be on that at some point too.
So yeah. Um, okay. He's, he's a funny, a funny character.
And I hope that he trains cause we were talking about it and he was like, yeah, well it'll just be like three hours.
ours, right? It depends on the day, man.
Yeah. We'll see. Exciting.
Well, I mean, I ask all those questions because it's just fun to hear what you've got going on, but I think such a big, you know, a big sentiment that many of us felt myself included in Boston was we're not ready to say goodbye does like it's not goodbye.
It's see you later.
Oh yeah. I like that.
Well, I'm you're still going to be around.
All right. I can't not talk at least a little bit more about Boston.
You took out an ad in the Boston Globe.
Might've been the most badass move ever.
And I know that you have shared this story elsewhere, but can we hear a little bit more about that decision and what went into deciding to announce your retirement from pro -marathoning that way?
Yeah. I think one, it's like super rare for a runner.
I guess this is my interpretation, But in my opinion, it's very rare for a runner to have built up kind of a community feeling and like a home base in a single city, like because you're traveling all over.
The Olympics are different places.
The majors are all over.
But for some reason or another, like I think it's just luck that I kind of created this following in Boston and this kind of connection with the Boston Marathon specifically.
specifically so um I always knew that I would finish my professional career there like with the marathon it just felt like the right bookend and then when you think about like how you want to share that story I think if you announce it ahead of time then that's the whole story going in and everyone writes like their obituary of your career for you um and then you get to plug in like a quote here there and for me it was just like I I just want to race I want to focus on the the race that's the part i love and that's what i'm gonna miss the most and so like how can i make sure that's the thing that i
get to do really well um and that was like saving it for the morning of and just being like okay this is out there now and then we can talk about it after the race but um yeah i just felt like it was very much all on my terms which was nice when you went to bed that sunday night were you like just wait till you all wake up like it was such huge news to wake up to People were crying.
Des, a lot of emotions from the community.
What was it like for you?
And were you thinking about what the reaction and the response would be?
No, I think I was still like, there's still time to change your mind.
Like, are you sure?
Are you sure? Stop the presses.
Yeah. Like, hold on.
Yeah. And then I was like, oh, like, I wonder if people even read print anymore.
more. Like maybe no one will even see this.
Um, can you imagine like, you know, like just the 10 locals who are in their nineties were like, yeah, we got the paper.
Yeah. So yeah. And then, yeah, I was, it was actually just a really hard thing to like even post, you know, it was like, oh, this is so final.
Yeah. So I noticed when you were doing the walkout, the final clap out coming out out of the Copley, which is one of my favorite traditions as a fan of the sport and a fan of Boston.
And it's so special.
And you came out right at the front and were so gracious waving to everyone.
What do you remember feeling?
Was that a particularly poignant moment for you exiting?
Sounds so sad. Exiting the hotel one last time.
No, I love that part too.
I think it was weird because I feel like everyone, we normally go the opposite direction.
And so it's like a little bit like oh are we even going the right way it's so it didn't really hit me um but i was thinking about a lot that day like oh like i think probably like doing the uniform and shoe check it's like okay this is the last time um little things like that probably hit me a little bit more were your fellow uh fellow pros competitors whatever however you see them on the day were a lot of them talking to you about it that morning before the race?
Um, no, not really.
I mean, I think I talked to, well, Jess McLean, like tapped me and mentioned it and I was like headphones on, like, I think if I had started talking about it, I just would have cried.
Um, so no, not particularly.
And everyone's doing their thing, you know, it's that that's not where their focus is at and that's not important for them.
Um, so yeah, yeah, I certainly wasn't expecting that, but the folks who like did catch the news were like very kind about it.
And that was cool. Do you remember what were you listening to on race morning?
I don't remember. Nothing.
Okay. I like to imagine in my head what it was.
What's that? I don't know.
I, everyone's so different.
You have the people that are like, I listened to gospel music and then you have the people who are like Eminem.
Um, and then there's a a lot of in -between there's a lot of like pop girlies in the crowd you know so yeah I don't know what I had on usually that's something I would like be into but I think I was like it's like when you are listening to a podcast and then or a song not your podcast but or your you hear a line and you like want to have a conversation with the host and so you start thinking about it and then you're like I missed 30 minutes that is you know what I mean yes yes hopefully no one's doing that right now you're all very present yes uh but i noticed when you were walking out and i feel
like at other times throughout the weekend you seemed to have a crew with you whether it was photographers videographers is there a des documentary in the works is there anything that we can be really excited about that you would totally announce here now i feel like i've talked about this a little bit before they they did do uh we are doing like a little doc i have it'll be like 14 minutes max or something like that so short short short piece but um yeah i knew that this would be an interesting story i think it's interesting perspective um i think that maybe i don't know if this is true or not but people
don't talk about the end of the career that often and like how hard it is and the things you're kind of considering and the whys and all that stuff so um yeah i have a content budget with brooks now which is kind of cool and i was like it's actually not for world marathon majors is for other things and i was like but i really think we should do this and they were like okay like you can use some of your budget for that so i think it'll come out um in the fall sometime we're shooting for a random major because obviously it makes sense to um have that audience for it so uh yeah it does a premiere
a red carpet there you go red carpet or whatever color you want i'll ask my people i'll ask okay i mean i I know what you'll be wearing.
Well, I was going to say, I know you'll be wearing Brooks on your feet.
I would imagine, but I could also see you at, Oh my God.
I wish everyone at home could see that there is a dog standing on top of you right now.
Start pawing me in the back soon.
What an angel. Hey buddy, we hung out once.
He's so much bigger.
I know. Look at that beautiful tail.
Okay. Red carpet situation.
What would the dress code be?
If you were designing your doc premiere, what would you want the energy, the vibe, what would you want it to be like I'm not super formal so I think it would be like sporty cash okay yeah where would you where would you feel comfortable in I hate when people like have to feel like they're in a costume yeah but I like when you like own your style and it's like you just make that work and look so cool because you're comfortable in it I because you use the universal you I felt like you were just talking to me and thank you for all those compliments yeah looking forward to it oh bye buddy that looked
great he was like propped up back there yes i can't get anything done ryan's ryan's out fishing so there's no one to maintain him otherwise he wouldn't have been in here he's an angel uh what's the boston snapshot moment from 2025 when you picture like if you were to take a photo from the boston marathon and frame it what's going in um there's actually it exists and it's probably Ryan and I hugging at the finish line like that was it which is really cool like yeah I'm gonna do it did you feel how how much on the day were you so happy and how much like was there a time that it felt like the emotions
hit the most that day um not really on the day to be honest I think there was so much uh leading into it that I was like empty by the day like okay I felt all the feelings and like I know what this is gonna be um yeah no I think the day I just felt like I felt very satisfied and content because because i raced well um but it was kind of like predictably where i expected to finish which was ultimately the thing that was like well this isn't it's not that exciting for me to finish in the top 20 and i'm not trying to knock on anyone else who has their goals or still trying to achieve or is coming
up or figuring out how they want to exit or whatever their other people are doing um for me personally like you know i've been in the top five i've won i've been and runner up, like working just as hard to finish, you know, 18th is just is really, really hard. So there are other things I would like to pursue.
Yeah, let's talk about some of those things.
What's your history with Western states?
When did this particular race enter your world, your orbit, your brain?
What's the history there?
Yeah, I have no history really at all.
I guess the few times it's come into my orbit has been with my trail friends when we're in New Zealand or, uh, running on Nakasendo in Japan and, you know, Magda is a Western state champion and Ruth Croft is a Western state champion.
So I've heard amazing things about it.
And I've been around, um, you know, runners who know how to do it well, but hadn't really appealed to me um or spoke to me at all and then my buddy joe mcconaughey from brooks uh string being runner actually qualified he's tried eight times to qualify and he finally got it this year so when he when he got the qualifier i was like so pumped for him we were messaging back and forth and then a couple i think a couple weeks later he was like would you want to pace like would you want to help me out um he's like i'm sure it doesn't work with your schedule i know it's right after boston you and yada,
yada. I was like, actually, this, this year would be good.
Like, let's, let's, let's make it happen.
And so a couple of things that had to work was one, I wanted to make sure I could run the trails that he's going to be on.
Like, cause you get on some of these courses and you're like, that's, there's no way this is like hiking.
And, and that I would be fit enough coming back after, after Boston.
So those were the big question marks that we're kind of answering now.
I feel like we need to work on his delivery of how he asked.
That sounded like a lot of reasons to try to talk you out of it when it's like, dude, she's going to say yes.
I think he was guarding himself.
No, I might have put those in myself.
Typically, I was like, no, normally this wouldn't work because blah, blah, blah.
But I was like, yeah, let's do it.
This year works. So how many follow -up questions did you have immediately?
I'm thinking, what does pacing entail?
and for how many miles and which particular section are we talking about?
Did you ask any of those or was it an immediate yes?
Um, I think it was, what are the dates?
Like, let me make sure that works.
And then June 28th.
Yep. That's correct.
I'm pretty sure. Um, and then it was like, how technical is it going to be?
Uh, which led to the question, how long is the section?
And I actually got to pick, um, and then it was like, Oh, I wonder if I can actually do this.
And it turns out that there was a training camp on the section.
So I was like, well, I'll go out and actually run it with you.
And we can see what it's like.
And I don't know him super well, either.
We've met at Brooks events like very briefly.
So it was also like, are we going to be compatible for 1618 miles?
Like, can I talk to you that long?
Do I want to talk to you that long?
Do you want me to talk to you that long?
Well, I feel like that's the question.
Because when we when you were on the show, and we talked about the 50k, And you talked about running with Charlie Lawrence and a huge part of that was like, who can I stand for that amount of time?
Yeah. So yeah, I'm sure you can stand Joe.
Can he stand you for that amount of time?
Does it sounds like he can, I think he thinks he can.
I think camp was good.
I think we have like good, our sense of humor matches up.
Um, so that was fun.
We're pretty compatible.
Um, but you just never know how someone's going to arrive at that like 60 miles I was into a race like I was talking to his buddy who's filming some stuff for him and I was like I like what if he's like super down in the dumps like I've never been around like grumpy Joe he's like no no he just gets really sad like he just kind of gets sad so you have to cheer him up like I can deal with sad but we'll see we'll see what I get when he gets there you know how I mean what goes through your brain with that how do you deal with sad had um i think we have to get him snacks we have to tell him good stories
and uh be motivating without being a bitch but i also think that like i'm in the section where it's like we we talked about this like it's really have to just maintain if he's having a good day like we don't have to do anything special we just have to make sure he's locked in and then the next person that i pass him off to kind of has to be a hard ass like i know you want to quit but like let's let's f and jo Joe.
Let's F in Joe. I hope that's going on t -shirts.
That's great. I like it.
It sounds even better when you say it out loud.
So is that your section or are you jumping in at mile 60?
I think it's around then.
Okay. Yeah. I think it's 60 to 70 something.
And then somebody else takes in the last 22 or something like that.
So it sounds like in that first conversation or early conversation that you had some options of which sections you would do why did you choose this one uh it was shorter okay actually I think he might have picked it for me and he was like it's shorter but also I think it's like I don't think it's the more runnable of the two sections I think the second the last section was was actually more runnable but I do think it does require a little bit more like maybe practice with pacing or at least like knowledge of what Joe needs in that late section.
So this seems safer, I think for both of us.
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So I know that, you know, you've talked about, and obviously you're doing it, of like the next phase of the career end of your life is like yeah let's get out on these trails let's have some fun let's dabble obviously at a race like western states the oldest 100 mile race in the world you don't just get in that there's different ways to get in you're des linden absolute royalty coming from the road racing world like with something like western states like could you have made a call and then like i really want to do it or is it like are they firm on how you you get in?
That's a great question.
And I like this year, there's no way like I wouldn't want to race it.
I'm just not prepared.
So I think it's a good way to go experience it, get to know the people, you know, just in cases, you know who to call, and they know you.
And then I think next year, even like looking at the schedule and looking at things I want to do, it'll still be hard. like I don't think I'll be able to qualify next year um so then it's like do you then then you figure out how you can schedule in a qualifier or like maybe you go through a sponsor if you've done some stuff in the ultra world that's impressive enough where they're like okay you're not just like pulling the road card you've actually achieved at like 50 mile, a hundred K maybe there's some crossover here.
Um, but I also think that if I did pull that card, everyone would hate me.
They'd just be like, really?
Like can't you just qualify like everyone else?
So, yeah, you'll have to have a whole, you'll have to do a whole episode about it just so you know, you're going to have to, you're going to have to wade into the comments with that one.
That might not be fun.
What else else excites you as we're talking about ultras trails are there other races other than western states where you're like oh yeah what do you have your eye on yeah so I'm actually signed up for tunnel hill 50 miler so that'll be fun and I'm planning on doing that that's no is that the one in november that's the one in november which people like saw that you were registered for it yeah I know it's crazy I just like my buddy was like oh like I know the race director he'll just give you an entry and I was like I probably should do that I don't know if it sells out or not like like, I don't
know. And he was like, yeah, so just like, just sign up.
And then it like popped up on some profile and people started talking about it.
I was like, I guess I'm doing it.
Um, but different than road racing announcements where like that is closely guarded.
Yeah. I can't tell you yet, but I'm doing a race in the spring.
It'll probably be 26 .2.
I don't know if it's up, I'm doing a fall marathon, flat and fast, but can I say which?
Exactly. So they're like, no, I just saw it in your profile.
oh god that's crazy the internet's on it man and then I mean I would love to do JFK 50 at some point I have my eye on MDS which everyone I talk to is like don't do that that's stupid but it's like dubbed the hardest foot race in the world and so just from marketing alone I'm like well yeah I have to do that very Des of you yeah a few things like that how do you see yourself yourself in the trail running community like when you're rolling up to western states this time and you're pacing duties are you like I'm here and I know you're not gonna say that like I'm the Boston Marathon champion I think
I'm gonna wear the thing the laurel wreath yeah I'll wear it out there bring your medal wear head to toe just like Boston gear would be good um you can put a Berks logo on it we can work with that no one will be mad uh but how do you like do you see yourself as a newbie you have so much experience in running obviously and you could almost argue that they sort of are different sports in many ways so how do you see yourself in this community that you are relatively new to yeah a total newbie just there to learn not you know expecting inspecting anything so I've like I've been to UTMB I've been on the trails
and like oh yeah this is totally different than what we do it's a whole new uh challenge and even just running the section I ran like I'm pretty good on some downhills like I Boston's a downhill course I my quads were trashed for a week like I was like I can't train can't train this week because I hurt all over um so there's a lot to learn you know are you nervous yeah I am about what um I just think it's a big responsibility to pay somebody who's like goals are on the line and you know obviously I've never raced on any kind of terrain like this before um it was good to see it I don't think I
was definitely wasn't as fit as I needed to be during camp but I'm still like well I hope I'm like I I just don't want to hold up his day Like, I don't have to add anything per se.
Like that's the A goal, like make sure I'm helping him a ton.
And, but like not getting in the way is super important too.
Like if he's, you know, go, I feel bad.
I have to, I have to run with you.
Like, oh my gosh, that'd be so embarrassing.
So I just feel like, I feel a great sense of responsibility in making sure that I can help him achieve his goals.
But if not, that I don't like compromise his goals in any way.
I don't think I will, but I don't know until I'm out there, you know.
Yeah, you're going to be great.
What is your pacing history?
How much have you paced people on race day?
That's a good question.
Not, like, formally very often.
I've done it in, like, Rock and Roll San Diego for, like, the five -hour group or something like that.
Wait, did you really?
Did you really pace a five -hour group?
For, like, halfway or something.
Yeah, I've done some things like that.
so i i get it i know what's up um okay but the trails are just different because it's like yeah is this the right pace like all right you know um but i think i'm almost more of a companion right like he's going to be in charge and like hey if you need me to go in front i can if you want to just lead i can stay keep you company make sure you're getting your snacks um yeah yeah having spent time together and having run together and run so when you ran at camp and you were running on you said you ran on the section that you'll be pacing were you running that together side by side kind of feeling
it out of like where you'll be where he might be what was that like so for the first like three miles he just bombed ahead and i was like behind traffic and I was like what's like the etiquette and I'm like excuse me hold on like and then I was also like I'm not great on downhill running yet so I was just like okay like don't fall on your face don't fall on your face I didn't I made it um and then we linked up and ran together and chatted and he was like this is like a good pace it'll be a little bit faster like we'll probably need to be I think at the end of it was like we'll probably need to
be about 10 minutes faster um right but But also like we I trotted down the first three to six miles and then there's some fitness questions when we started.
But yeah, so we stopped a lot and had snacks and, you know, whatever.
But I think I think I'm going to be good.
I think you're going to be great.
What are your trail snacks of choice?
So far, well, my section is not that long.
I was like, I have way too much stuff, but I've been carrying a lot of goo product because Magda just like gives me goo stuff, which is cool.
okay so you're not like you know i feel like part of the allure of the trails is they're like and then i had some chicken noodle soup and then i had a quesadilla so we're not there yet we're still very dialed in terms of the nutrition i feel like for this one i'm like laser focused like this is serious but i've definitely had when we were in new zealand we uh you know get a bunch of coffee beforehand pastries and i'm like i'm gonna take one of these lemon pound cakes from my pack and like, yeah, so I've done the moves, and they're like, oh, you are a trail runner, and I'm like, hell yeah, I'm
going to eat that later.
What was the accent you just did that in?
Was that a little bit British?
Was it? Because it should have been.
You started in Australia, so I'm not sure, or New Zealand.
I think I was thinking of maybe.
Or just fancy. It kind of sounded just like a very fancy.
Yeah. I like that. What have been some of the biggest takeaways as you reflect on camp, which I know, I mean, there's so much to say about it, but when you look back on that and what you learned and what you experienced?
What are some of the key takeaways?
You got to do some vert in the training, get the downhills, get the quads ready.
That's a big part of it.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's just being super flexible and keeping like an open mind about things.
And it was really fun to mix it up with the trail community.
Like everyone was like super super inviting and like helpful.
And I thought that was cool.
Um, that didn't really answer your question, but I just wanted to say that generally you can throw in just a nice little compliments to any of these questions.
Does that feel different than the running the road racing community?
Not necessarily. I think the road racing community is friendly and can be inviting.
I just feel like it's a lot more tightly wound.
Yeah, you said it to me.
Oh, yeah, it's my show.
I can say whatever I want.
Oh, yeah. No, road racing is for, like, the really uptight people, and trails are where you go when you're ready to have fun, right?
Like, I feel like that's common knowledge.
Yeah, okay. I don't know.
I mean, I feel like the dudes who are really good and the women who are really good, like, they're not f***ing around, you know?
Like, they're very serious athletes.
They're training hard. They're competitive.
competitive, but they're also like, dude, we're out here running a hundred miles.
We can probably be respectful and friendly, which isn't to say that doesn't happen on the roads.
But I think, I don't know, I guess maybe there's, you have that in the marathon, that camaraderie where you're like, I know I respect all the people who are putting in that type of work to have a good race out here.
And I guess maybe if you're going that much longer, it's like, yeah, there's not really any place to be an asshole.
Let's just all make sure we're okay at the end of this.
Right. right put all of it on a t -shirt i love that yes i'm sure you've done the math when are you expected like what time of day are you running a night section will this be during the day when based on all of the ideal pacing what time are you jumping in yeah i i think i'll be on the crew throughout the day as well um i don't know the exact timing but i know with the men if they're having a good day I shouldn't be running in the dark like I should be able to and I I go through the river crossing I could in theory go through the river crossing I could just stay on one side and be like all right good
luck uh we'll see no you gotta forward the river that's gonna be so fun but I just feel like I see photos and it's like up to people's chests and I'm like okay let's just do the math here that's overhead how tall are you like five one yeah yeah okay yeah maybe I get on Joe's shoulders.
He's super tall. Come on, Joe, do this for me.
I paced you for 16 miles, man.
I'm here to help. I got this lemon pound cake I got to get.
It's on his shoulder.
He would do it too because he's so nice.
He'd be like, okay.
So you said you'll be part of the crew the rest of the day.
So logistically, what's the day going to look like for you start to finish?
How much do you know?
Nothing. I'm going to find out when I get there.
Yeah. But I'm like just rolling with it when I Like you tell me what to do and where to go and how I can be helpful and I will do it.
Are you going out by yourself?
Is Ryan going or any like is anyone in your crew coming along for the adventure?
No, just me. It's crazy, though, because like as people started like hearing it, it was like, oh, so and so would reach out.
Can you come over and do my podcast?
Or like a friend was like, hey, but like, you know, so -and -so lives down the street.
You have to meet up for dinner.
Oh, like while you're in town?
Yeah. Yeah. And so there's like actually like so many people that I do know that are going to be out there.
So no crew, but I feel like I'll know plenty of people.
So. Okay. So then have you ever either, I'm guessing you haven't crewed an ultra before, or I feel like that might've come up, but all of the like pit crew stuff, right.
Where your runner comes in and people are changing out the shoes and all that.
Like, are you down for that?
Are you into that? um i don't mind it i've done it for ryan uh at unbound um a cycling race right um so i did i've done it before and it's like you just have all the stuff ready but i think they're pros like he's done so many of these crazy races and then also like fkt's so um yeah his team is just going going to be like this is what you do is you're trying I'm expecting I'll just be told what to do and if I'm not doing it they'll be like just get out of the way so I think I'll be fine how many people are on or in the crew great question perfect do you want me to make a list of questions for you
to ask them when you go yeah no I don't I just want to go and find out and be thrilled world about it okay I know there's there's a separate Airbnb for the crew so like I'm just thinking like maybe it's a three to four bedroom place with a couple doubled up so maybe maybe if I were if I were guessing maybe the crew is six to eight there's probably two teams right yeah I'm not gonna fact check any of this I will believe anything you tell me pretty much about anything yeah, no, these are just like my assumptions.
I I'm excited to find out how close I am to accurate.
So you mentioned Magda, you mentioned Ruth, you have, it sounds like you've really started to form a community within this community.
Have you been asking many people for either, whether it's advice, tips, uh, feedback, anything like that, or is it just you and Joe and you talking to him?
Are there other people who are kind of chiming in to offer, whether it's best practices or anything helpful?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that was the cool part about the camp is like chatting with other folks and just like getting unsolicited advice, which was very welcomed.
Um, and then, you know, Joe will be very specific about what he needs.
Um, and then his buddy who does the filming has a lot of opinions as well.
Who's like been super helpful.
Like, Like, yeah, I'll just be kind of sad.
It's like, this is good to know.
This is good stuff.
Are you stockpiling stories?
I should be. Yeah. Just read your book.
Like, just be prepared to recite it start to finish, because that would cheer them up.
It's motivating. It's funny.
It's well done. Did you ever watch Homestar Runner?
I've never heard of that, but yes.
Yes. It was like original, original internet.
When we're done, go look up Homestar Runner and then go find Teen Girl Squad.
Okay, that sounds up my alley.
Teen Girl Squad? Yeah.
What is it? Teen Girl Squad.
It's a cartoon that was on Homestar Runner.
And it's a group of like four girls.
The cheerleader, what's her face, so and so, and the ugly one.
And it follows her adventures.
Yeah, I know. Those can't be the real names.
That's their names.
And yeah, you just got to go follow their adventures.
Which one's your favorite?
Who'd you identify with?
I have to watch some again.
They all, usually all of them die except one.
Jesus, why are you recommending?
It's really funny. There's an ugly one and they all die.
Perfect. After you said that I would love it.
You just got to watch it.
You'll laugh. okay i get it it's like a you know like when kenny and south park would die in like crazy ways in every episode yeah like like arrows come in or like um yeah just watch it i'm thinking of like if i'll say something like perched and you won't get it but people who watch teen girl skull would be like perched i get it okay um so my daughter is six and a half and we've been watching is it cake which is a really amazing show on netflix and one of the characters is one of the characters one of the contestants is named timmy and every time he's on on like and he goes timmy and i'm like
how do you know that like how do you know and i'm like did i do it once and she heard it but like why and how is my six and a half year old quoting south park yeah like stuck in there from some baby moment years it's all just drilled in our brains to say that okay western states what What are you looking forward to the most?
Mixing it up with the people.
I mean, actually, I'm really excited to just like be on the trail with Joe and get to help him race.
You know, like those hard moments where you're like, this sucks.
And you're like, no, you're doing awesome.
Like just being a motivator for him.
I know you've talked about this a bit and about this next chapter of your career and what it could look like and what you might want it to look like.
Like, but from a relative outsider's perspective, I think it's like, all right, now Des is going all in on the trails.
Like she's going to go out to like win Western States at some point, right?
Do you see it that way?
Is that, are these some of the dreams that you have is to go out and like really be competitive in this scene?
Are we in the learning phase?
What do you think? Yeah, I think I need to learn a lot first and then the clock is ticking, right?
where it's like how competitive are you going to be when you're 44 or 45 like does ultra kind of give you some room to like lose a little bit of that pop but still like experience and the engine is big enough and so you can still be competitive I don't really know um I'm going in like with the philosophy that or the idea that like still a strong athlete and if it clicks I've I've got a shot to be decent at it.
Um, but I'm certainly, there's no expectations of like, wow, if I'm not in the podium in the next three years, then this has been a failure.
You know, I think it, it truly is a different sport.
So it's going to take some time to learn.
Um, and if I'm not like really enjoying it or having fun, I'm not going to pursue it in a really aggressive way.
There's plenty of other things to be doing as well in the sport and outside the sport too.
What's outside the sport?
can we talk about that um yeah i mean just like staying home and not traveling a ton and going fishing and um yeah things like that playing with the dogs yeah just chilling for a little bit yeah yeah at least a little bit yeah i like that plan who are some of the other than the people we've already mentioned in the trail and ultra communities who are some of the people that like Like not to be like, who are your Des Lindens in this community, but are there some people out there that you're like, yeah, either like you're a badass.
I admire them. I look up to what they've done in their career.
Who do you look to?
I feel like I don't know the sport well enough.
And so I'll say some really basic names.
Like obviously everyone looks at Courtney DeWalter and is like icon.
Uh, I think Ana Gibson, um, the young Brooks athlete is just doing like an incredible job of, she made the 1500 meter Olympic trials.
I think she made it through to the final um I don't remember but I mean then she's like turns around and runs you know ultras and mountain runs and competes just as well she's won the national championship in the u .s mountain running I think it was I don't think it was a marathon I think it was like 8k or some 12k or something but like the range is incredible so um another person like I remember watching Jim Walmsley's road attempt for I think it was 100k I don't know it was 100 mile or 100k I think he did them both within it was chasing them both within one record attempt and like missed it by like
20 seconds or something and just what like sitting on the edge of your seat what like is he gonna get it and just down to the end so that was really cool um yeah I mean I think that there are gonna be names that I learn about that I'm like oh that's a cool story that doesn't get enough love like that's my hero um but I just haven't dug into the The race is too deep yet.
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all right so let's revisit road racing for a little bit yeah who are some of the names that as we kick off yet another you know four -year olympic cycle we're talking about the olympic trial standards that are out now and so that's on everyone's mind for at least a couple days a couple news cycles uh who do you have your eyes on when it comes to road racing and marathoning Oh, gosh.
It's funny because it happened real quick.
Well, you're like, well, these experienced like vets are like Emma Bates and Emily Sisson.
And I don't know, will Kira D 'Amato still be competing at a high level?
uh yeah like i just think of that world championship team from from oregon was just super good um and i think they'll all still be around and rocking and then you know jess mclean who finished fourth at everything um i think she's still got her best days ahead of her and i think she's gonna have a really big breakthrough um you know dakota and annie like just so good and consistent like you can almost lose them in the shuffle which is crazy because they could also make an olympic team and have that skill but an ability that it surprises people but it really shouldn't um and then there's this younger
crew of like how good can fiona be um you know her teammate taylor roe is just crushing it right now is she going to be consistent and have of you know success in the marathon waney colati i think you look at her partnering up with sharon luchetti and it's like yeah she's going to be a natural amanda vestry just took to the half like you know like no problem um erica kemp 222 in houston so there's just so many like you could sit here name names for you know 25 minutes um which is exciting because then there's i'm sure there's some someone in college right now who's going to run a really good 10k
and we'll step up you know the for the trials we'll probably qualify in the half step for the trials and win in her debut right because we've seen that a few times now so who knows I also love that when I asked about who were watching in road racing that we talked about the women's race yeah and and the men are great too, but, uh, I went to a small gathering for some friends yesterday.
Like it was a birthday thing and people hanging out and we get there and they were watching a tennis match. Don't call it a game.
They will let you know when I tell you, I know nothing about tennis, but I walked in and they have the game on and I said, are you guys watching the men's game?
And they looked at me, I made no friends.
Um, I asked so many questions.
Cause Because in my mind, I was like, if I were watching the New York City Marathon broadcast and someone who knew nothing about running was asking a ton of questions, I'd be so pumped.
I would teach them everything.
I would tell them all the facts I knew.
And these guys were kind of like, please be quiet.
At one point, I was like, I think I'm going to take tennis lessons.
And this one guy goes, I think pickleball might be more your speed.
And I was like, okay, that also sounds great.
Do you want to be my doubles partner?
murder do you say yeah uh nope um i came in hot with the enthusiasm but all that to say i my opening line was are you watching the men's game and um so i'm glad that you mentioned all of the badass women yeah i immediately thought you were gonna say it was you guys were watching coco golf so oh well that was the day before which i had seen the headline i was aware i have her socks that she wears with the little ruffles i'm wearing them right now so i pay attention to sports become tennis fans i do want to ask save the 10 000 again i know you've recapped it you've talked about it one of the really
interesting numbers that came out of it 1800 virtual participants 1800 people who wanted to be a part of this in some way what does that metric tell you that was so cool um and i can't even probably hundreds of angry folks who were like why'd you you close it before i can sign up um so that was a bummer but yeah no i think it's it's great i think that there's an audience for running you know i think that um people want to be involved and people felt like they attached to this idea of the 10 000 they're like yeah we want to support it too um and it was a thing we kind of wrestled with like it feels
sort of like like virtual races is, is it a money grab?
And you're like, yeah, but this is a way for people to like support the event.
Like all this money is going towards the event and you get like a shirt and you get to feel like you're a part of this thing.
So I think like seeing the amount of people who are into it and wanted to participate and wanted to contribute was actually, um, it felt a little, I felt a little bit better about it, even though it was like, I don't know, virtual races, like, uh, like, I think we've moved beyond that, but it was a cool way for people to feel connected to the event and that, that was good.
Yeah. I think that that was amazing.
Just the overwhelming amount of support for, for you, for Cara, for something that you're building and for just people getting on board and being excited.
It is a really fun time to see a lot happening on the track in road racing, of course, in ultras as well, just everywhere is rainbows and sunshine.
shine. We have also seen since the Boston marathon and your announcement about stepping back from professional marathoning, it feels like almost every pro woman that you have raised with and against had some sort of tribute to Des Linden.
What is your message to the fellow pro women marathoners?
They love you so much. They respect you so much. What would you say to them?
oh gosh um i don't know i think they're they're doing it you know like do exactly what you're doing be yourself run your race um do it with heart and integrity and keep leaving your mark because you know i feel like we're all these little blips and i don't feel like i didn't notice like all these tributes or anything it was just like a really cool finish line moment and that was great um but yeah like you see what everyone else is doing in the sport and for the sport it's like oh like we are leaving a mark on it as a group as a group of women who are raising the sport up so so do it in your way
do it authentically and your story will stick with folks as well oh i love that all right couple sprint to the finish questions i'll do Do some repeats.
We'll update them since we've done it 80 times.
Stretch my hamstrings first. No, you don't have to do that.
In fact, you should lay down.
Get comfy for this.
What would your last meal on Earth be?
I'm just going to leave you with silence.
I'm going to go with a lobster roll.
Ooh, warm or cold? Warm, sorry.
No, that's the correct answer.
I feel like it's not the right answer, but it's the right answer.
favorite movie oh gosh um I'm gonna go Devil Wears Prada I feel like you've asked that before and I feel like I've said that before and are they working on a sequel are they yeah no way yeah oh and Emily in Paris comes back soon like in a good way or in a bad way has it ever been in a good way I mean oh it was so good are you kidding me are you wait do you watch and just us like that do you watch the sex in the city reboot the first season and then it's the same thing where you're like okay that's I'm good I'm no but I'm still doing it I've never hated anything as much as I hate that show but I
cannot wait for new episodes it's just like craptastic it's so bad it's so outrageous so I can't wait for Emily in Paris to come back um and Camille will not be back this season because really they exhausted her terrible storylines oh okay well I missed the the last season maybe I need to catch up I don't I actually bet you could jump right in pretty good about that too I'll go look and see if you missed any good fashion moments and I can just screenshot those right over but is Mindy still in it Mindy your girl Mindy is thriving um she dated like a bad boy who worked for a fashion company we're
losing listeners I can feel half of them getting so excited right now and the other half that's already mad because Cause you closed entry to the 10 ,000.
Yeah, no, Mindy's doing great.
Mindy's singing. She went to Eurovision.
I think she's doing really well.
I see her in other shows and I'm like, oh, Mindy.
Classic Mindy. She's always singing.
She's been naked a lot.
I feel like she does.
She's yeah. She's like closing Mindy.
But also, but also it's like good for her.
You know, I've kind of evolved my thinking there.
My confidence, go for it.
Yeah. you know, I'm 40 now, I guess I'm a master.
Like, welcome to the masters by the way.
Yeah. Thank you. I'm new here.
So I'm learning. Um, but you are one of the people that I look up to in the space.
And so, um, yes. Okay.
Favorite TV show. So all of that was because you said devil wears Prada is your favorite movie.
So what's your favorite TV show?
Favorite TV show. What am I watching lately?
Oh yeah. What are you watching now too?
Um, there's a new documentary with Shaquille O 'Neal on the shoe uh with on Reebok I have you met him no but I just want a photo next to him that's that's my biggest dream it's just to take a picture with Shaq yes and the thing is this is gonna happen for you there's going to be a sporting event where you and Shaq are both there it'd be amazing you're gonna get the shot um I'll work on that I'll work on that when you you met taylor swift at billboard music awards yep you have pictures with her or just like screen grabs from when you were yeah just like the screen grabs it was very quick and it
was like i would have felt terrible asking for a photo oh i was thinking she would have asked you for a photo yeah not this time next time okay um so tv show what are we watching Oh, The Shaq Show.
Yeah, we just started that.
There's, oh, The Stick with Owen Wilson and the golf thing.
That was pretty good.
Have you ever watched You?
Oh, no, I don't think I could do it.
It's really intense.
I don't do, do I seem like?
Yeah, don't do that one.
Well, I don't know.
It's like, it's a love story gone obsessive.
Like, that's literally what it is.
He's like, he falls in love like so hard that he's like obsessed.
And you could see that for me?
No, but I think he would like a good love story.
I love a love story.
Like that's what it is.
It's just like love unhinged.
If I start watching this and it's not a love, is there a murder?
Yeah. Oh. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. I think we have just like different ideas of what.
I don't think it's a, it's not a traditional left story.
I don't think you'll like it, but I'm just saying like at its core, it is about love.
Yeah. So was swim fan, but sure.
Swim fan is where he gets obsessed with it.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So probably the same thing.
Okay. Perfect. Perfect.
Perfect. Uphills or downhills.
Uphill. Yeah. You didn't talk about when, in all of this with talking about Western States, you mentioned the downhills a lot.
You never talked about uphills.
You're just. Yeah. I was talking with Ryan about that the other day because we were running together, and I cranked the last three quarters of a hill.
He was like, why are you pushing the pace?
I was like, because this is terrible.
I just want to be done with it.
I don't understand why people run so slow on the uphills when you can just run harder, and then they're done quicker.
I don't get it. I was very upset about that.
I was like, why are people running so slow?
I think you should definitely work that into your pacing strategy.
strategy joe you need to hurry up so we can be done with this if you joe if you just run faster yeah pro tip that yeah that one quick story though that was a thing in camp when we were running together so one time he was like hey he gave me downhill tip he was like i'm just gonna give you one downhill tip and then on the up put it was like hey can you just like slow down bring it back just a little bit and that feedback is helpful that's it well no because i'm like no but if joe if you run it harder we'll be done sooner like maybe you should speed it up.
Uh, I don't know if you know this, you not see my Laurel wreath.
I won the Boston marathon famously.
I know Hills. It's going to be fine.
It's going to work out great.
What would you say is your current biggest pet peeve?
What's like really pissing you off these days?
Oh, I, my, my only pet peeve is chewing with the mouth open.
That's it. Everything else is like you can just talk through does Ryan do that yeah I mean like sometimes and he knows like he'll catch himself because I'll be like like there's a look that's scary that look is really scary okay if you could take a class in anything right now what would it be photography if you could go for a run with anyone this week who would you want to run with um anyone that's such a big question i thought you were gonna say bad question and i was like i'm gonna retire now ally i'd run with you thanks des i ran three miles today so So doing great.
What's your favorite pasta shape?
Bow ties. Ooh, yeah, because it's fancy, because it's so cute.
I was going to do an Italian accent on that one, but I don't know how that works.
An Italian accent? You could pull off an Italian accent.
Say it so I have some.
Pasta fagioli, mozzarella.
I don't think it works for bow ties.
Farfalle. Folly yeah bow ties the fancy name is for folly.
Oh okay. Which I'm sure I um oh good my lights came back on power's back.
I have an idea. Perfect love that.
In one word how does running make you feel?
Rejuvenated. Ooh do you have a karaoke song?
no but if i had to pick one i would do ryan adams um only gonna make you love me more that's not the name of it oh i was thinking brian adams you know summer of 69 also it would be fun but no um but i will be in tokyo for the world champs and i've like hard pitched brooks people like karaoke like Like when in Tokyo, like do the karaoke, it lives and dies there.
Yeah. Window or aisle?
Window. I really wanted you to be like first class.
Doesn't matter. I mean, there's still the choice there, but.
I guess, yeah. That was in question though after that, that like the one window like ripped off.
Remember, do you remember that?
Like it just, do I remember?
Yes, it was very big news.
You're out of a section of time where I was like, maybe I'll just take the aisle for a couple of weeks.
Yeah. Yeah. The aisle is totally safer.
Yeah. Who would you want to play you in a movie?
I don't know. I don't know my famous people well enough.
Someone not famous.
You can play yourself.
Yeah. There we go. Which you will in your documentary where the red carpet theme is costume casual.
Love it. that's how i heard it does yeah is there anyone who if you could switch lives with one person for a day who comes to mind for one day um i've been reading the news too much and it's all people i've just never want to step in their shoes or or you do step in their shoes and you make things right just fix it yeah yeah yeah you could switch with ryan and then you could be married to you that could be cute no that would be terrible don't think I'd like that that'd be eye -opening um I've got nothing where that's okay where are you a regular at the like the delta sky club in Detroit perfect
most spontaneous thing you've ever done um I don't know I bought like a really nice camera on a whim like a really nice one so you're ready for your photography class yeah exactly perfect now because I've already invested okay I like that answer last thing Des give everyone listening a reason to go for a run um you'll just feel so much better after you run i mean i think it's the cliche thing but whenever you come back from a run and been like wow i wish i hadn't done that so just go and get started so when you get back you'll feel amazing and then you'll want to do it again i love it des you're
the best i love getting to chat with you i'm super pumped for you to go experience western states and report back we will all be following along hope you have the the best time hope joe crushes it and hope you come back with lots and lots of stories we look forward to them let's f and joe let's f and joe thanks des have fun make good choices thanks thank you so much for being here for this episode of the alley on the run show with my guest des linden for more from me i am alley on the run one on instagram i am in the alley on the run show best running friends facebook group i'm hoping to get back on top of letting people into the group soon, or at least
finally, finally, finally delegating that task.
My newsletter is allyontherun .substack .com and you can support my work on Patreon at patreon .com slash ally on the run.
I love you. I appreciate you.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for joining me on the run.
