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The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News keeps you on top of the biggest stories of the day.
My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day.
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Chair Powell opened the door to this first interest rate cut.
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Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over, but one of them will end up dead and the other tried for murder three times.
It starts with a dream, a nature reserve, and a spectacular new home.
But little by little... They lose it.
They actually lose it.
They sort of went nuts.
Until one night, everything spins out of control.
Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Coben, and says let's write a book together?
I was asking him basically to let me into his secret thriller writing world.
This week, Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup.
Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller, Gone Before Goodbye.
You think you're going to read for 10 minutes, and next thing you know, it's four in the morning.
Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already a New York Times bestseller.
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Welcome to Decoding Women's Health.
I'm Dr Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.
I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.
100% of women go through menopause.
Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?
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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode, as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s.
This is a topic that has been a long time coming, but I've been kind of like holding off on doing it until I had some actual lived experience on the matter.
And now that I can definitely say that I do, I want to talk about what it's like living with your partner in your 20s and whether or not you should do it.
So I have been with my partner Tom now for three years.
I feel like you guys have been here for the entire life cycle of our relationship, from like when I was on my dating detox to when I met him afterwards.
And what you may or may not know is that we did kind of like we had like a medium distance relationship for some time where I live in Sydney.
He lives in Wollongong.
It's kind of like an hour and a half two hour drive, not really long distance, not particularly like easy to pop over and see each other.
And about a year in, he basically decided like okay, I'm going to move to Sydney so that we can be closer.
We had this huge discussion of, do we move in with each other?
Do we move in with each other after really only being together for like a year?
And we decided not to.
And I will say this, that was one of the best decisions that we made for our relationship.
I honestly think it is like one of the reasons we are so solid today because we didn't put out, put the pedal to the metal in our relationship.
And we really took our time to kind of go through all the milestones of being in a relationship and being with somebody.
And six months ago, we finally decided like, okay, no, now is the time.
We've been together for like two and a half years.
Let's move in together.
And we kind of did it on our own terms.
And there was a lot of times when we were like, this would be really convenient.
We basically already see each other every day anyways.
And we didn't do it and I think that how we went about it has really taught me a lot, and how we now live together has taught me a lot about the pros and cons of living with your partner in your 20s.
I will say it is amazing.
It is objectively so much fun and like just has made my life so much better.
But there are definitely things to think about when you make the just make this decision, like I.
You are basically guaranteeing that either you end up together long term, you end up married, or any breakup is going to be like 20 times more painful.
And there is definitely an urge, when you were in the early stages of a relationship, to want to build the life together, together without actually really knowing who you're dating yet, whilst you're still kind of in the honeymoon period.
And I'd really warn against that.
And I'm going to explain exactly why.
Why it's sometimes really, really important to wait.
What you need to know about your partner before you sign a lease together, before they move into your house.
And some of like the biggest hurdles that you will unfortunately and uncomfortably come across when you live with the person that you love more than anything else in the world.
So very excited to get into this to, of course, break down the psychology of this dynamic, to give you some, I guess, unsolicited advice, but you're listening to this episode, so it's solicited, I'm assuming.
Without further ado, let's get into, should you live with your partner in your 20s?
This question of should I move in with my partner in my 20s seems pretty simple at first.
You know, you already kind of spend every night at each other's places.
You've got a toothbrush in their bathroom.
Your wardrobe is in their closet.
You love each other.
You get along.
Why not just take the next step?
There is something though, about living with your partner rather than just spending time in your living environments with your partner that will change the whole dynamic of your relationship, whether you want it to or not, and whether for better or for worse.
Now traditionally, there have been, I think, two big schools of thought about do you live with somebody in your 20s or do you live with somebody before marriage, and the first thought is that moving in before marriage, before a ring, can somehow ruin the magic right cohabitating.
It should be left for, like the sanctity of marriage.
This is a particularly religious or conservative idea, of course, and It's definitely actually become more popular in modern day as well, with people recognizing the benefit of living apart for longer, maintaining financial independence, maintaining personal independence.
Even just like.
Being able to have separate lives is actually quite healthy for relationships that are still quite young or occurring when you are quite young.
The second school of thought is that you should live with somebody before you get married.
You should live with somebody in your 20s before you really take things to the next serious level.
The argument is, you know, how else are you going to know?
How else are you going to know that you're actually compatible in the day to day?
Living with each other is like a trial run, right, for the rest of your life.
It's like a way to test the waters before you sign like the metaphorical lease of forever.
Now marriage is also not the end goal for everybody anymore.
Some people never want to get married or it's not something that they're rushing to do anymore.
So I do think we shouldn't be thinking of this big conundrum.
Do I live with my partner in my 20s or not?
We shouldn't be thinking about it in terms of marriage, but in terms of what do we stand to gain and what might I risk by living with somebody in this formative period of my life, based on my values, based on my future plans, whether that's marriage or not, based on my current lifestyle.
What do I gain?
What might I lose?
Let's start with what you can gain.
What are some of the pros of living with somebody in your 20s?
The biggest pro is honestly that it's so much fun like you can't put a number on how enjoyable it is, if you've moved in with the right person, to just like go to bed every night and just laugh and giggle and it's just marvelous.
It's Everything that's like mundane normally grocery shopping, your commute, cooking dinner becomes like so much more fun.
It just is genuinely a dream.
I think financially and logistically, it can also make a lot of sense, right?
The cost of living, especially in our 20s, when you might still be figuring out your career.
You're paying off student loans.
Let's just not kid ourselves.
The global economic climate is not amazing.
It can be really brutal.
I live in Sydney.
I live in the second most expensive city in the world.
I have heard from friends in London and New York also very expensive cities that finances are a major factor in determining when people move in with their partners.
In fact, people move in a lot quicker just to get that like economic and financial relief.
You know, rent is rising, groceries cost us more fortune.
Moving in together is a practical solution.
I saw this 2023 survey online done in the US that found that 54 so just over half of cohabitating couples say that finances are a major reason they move in together.
Honestly, it's not a bad reason as long as it is not the only reason.
Now there is this very famous study about sliding versus deciding in a relationship.
That, I think, really convinces me that money cannot be the only reason you choose to live with somebody.
This paper basically says.
This theory basically says that when couples make major relationship transitions, they do one of two things.
They either slide, meaning they gradually and often unconsciously increase commitment without explicit discussion or intention.
So they move in together just because it is right and convenient and because it just seems like the basic next step, versus they decide, meaning they make a clear mutual, deliberate choice to deepen commitment.
They have conversations about it.
Yes, they're still considering practical factors that may slide the decision, but they're in a rational, deliberate mind about the choice.
So the authors of this study found that those who slide into big transitions often end up a lot less happy and they are much more likely to break up, largely because they never clarified expectations.
They never were really aligned beforehand.
They never may have discussed important things that you need to know about somebody before you live with them.
They just saw it as the easy, available next step.
And that ambiguity, it can lead to asymmetric commitment.
Because the biggest factor is convenience.
You don't really know how in somebody is because of their actual love for you and how in they are because of practicality.
Yes, living with your partner can help you save money, but living with somebody out of financial necessity rather than emotional readiness adds a lot of pressure to a relationship very, very quickly.
So that's just something to consider.
But finance is still a pro.
The third pro.
The third thing you stand to gain is that it's incredibly convenient.
You save.
I cannot begin to the amount of time that me and Tom save.
Not having to commute to each other's houses between you know, basically two different major cities every weekend or every day is incredible.
And I think especially for him, when we were doing that kind of like medium distance relationship, he It may have looked like he was living in Wollongong.
It may have looked like he was living at my house.
He was living out of his car.
Let's be completely real about it.
He had everything he needed.
He could have moved into his car because all of his stuff was in there.
Because of this back and forth,
I think it's not just that it's physically convenient.
It will also bring you together emotionally.
And I consider this a pro.
I think it really tests the strength of your emotional bond.
You know it is one thing to love somebody when they are all dressed up and you're out for dinner and everybody's on their best behavior.
It's another thing to love them when they're really stressed, really tired, really grumpy because somebody left the dishes in the sink really hangry.
All those different things.
I think cohabitation gives you a front row seat to who your partner really is.
Again, that's a pro for me.
Ideally, you should have seen some of these things before you made the decision.
Sometimes you don't.
I personally I really think that you shouldn't move in with somebody during your honeymoon period.
That's just my opinion.
Because in that first 12 to 18 months of a relationship, when you were just madly in love, there is nothing wrong with this person.
You cannot see past the bad stuff to the more messy things.
And I think that when you move in with somebody during that phase it makes it so much harder to really like adjust when those things eventually come out.
So I think, yes, living with somebody gives you a front row seat to those things.
You also hopefully should have seen it before.
You know.
Back to that previous point.
That's why people call living together like the relationship accelerator.
Everything is sped up the connection, but also the conflict, the communication, the hobbies you share, the relationship you have.
You can learn in six months of living with somebody, but it may have taken two to three years to learn about them.
So you just need to know you're ready for that kind of shock of either you know loving somebody even deeper because of that, or being a little bit scared off.
I will say you're probably like, why is this on the pros list?
I think it's on the pros list because you know this is gonna sound cynical but eventually you're going to learn about these things right and living together means you learn about them quicker and And if they are really big deal breakers like it does save you a lot of time.
And I think that think of that as a pro.
And then you know if it does work out and you determine that you are really compatible, well then you just get to know somebody even more intimately.
So either way, like I do think that you know somebody better, and whether you know that they're not right for you or know that they are right for you, that is still a huge, huge win.
I think a big reason why it is so emotionally intimate as well just to like further hone in on this point is because this is the first person since your family to see you at this level of like intimate proximity, right.
When you live alone, when you live with friends, there's still a degree of performance, even if it's small.
You do still try to be more tidy and try to be a more functional adult version of yourself.
But living with your partner, I think, removes that layer.
They do truly see everything differently.
In a lot of ways, cohabitation feels very familiar.
This is what I found.
I feel like it's the first time I've done it, but it just feels like I've done it before because it mirrors that deep domestic intimacy that you have with your family.
The sharing of space, the sharing of chores, the sharing of life, of the background noise of day-to-day.
This time, though, I think it's like a beautiful thing that you're getting to choose your family.
You're choosing the person you want to move in with.
You're choosing your partner rather than just being in the family that you're born into.
It will, though something that I don't see people talk about a lot is when you move in with somebody, you will experience this thing called family reenactment.
Basically, all of us carry emotional patterns that we've learned from early on, from across our lives emotional patterns to do with affection, to do with conflict responsibility, communication.
And when you are with your partner and there is that same level of intimacy as you had with your family, this stuff is going to come out.
And it might shock you.
It might honestly terrify you to be like wait, I'm in this big adult relationship and suddenly I'm acting like a child again.
Right?
Why does that happen?
Because I know that's a pretty common experience where you kind of feel like you're reversing in maturity.
Well, we're going to talk about all of that, as well as some other complexities of living with somebody after this short break.
In the new podcast Hell in Heaven, two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over.
But one will end up dead.
The other tried for murder.
Not once.
People went wild.
Not twice.
Stunned.
But three times.
John and Ann Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other.
They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill.
But little by little, their dream starts to crumble, and our couple retreat from reality.
They lose it.
They actually lose it.
They sort of went nuts.
Until one night, everything spins out of control.
Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Here we go.
And as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host.
Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics and pop culture.
And each week, one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions.
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Is non-monogamy back in style?
And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early?
We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh and Bill Nye.
When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.
Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now because it is.
But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future.
Listen and subscribe to.
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The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday.
A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market.
What does a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich reveal about the economy?
Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outsized indicators of inflation.
What's behind Elon Musk's trillion dollar payout?
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He's putting politics aside.
He's left the White House.
And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't?
CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumers are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure.
Listen to The Big Take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
A combat surgeon with secrets, a world built on power and privilege and the most unexpected creative duo of the year.
As an actor for so many years, I would always walk into other people's stories.
And I thought, well, why don't I give it a shot, you know, and try to write up my thoughts?
This week, Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, goes live from Apple Soho in New York City with Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben the powerhouse team behind.
Gone Before Goodbye, now a New York Times bestseller.
I think we both knew right away that this was going to happen.
It's a conversation about fear, ambition, and what happens when two master storytellers collide.
I've never seen a woman in kind of a James Bond world.
Come for the chills and stay for the surprises.
And find out why readers can't put it down.
Listen to, Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
You know the shade is always shadiest right here.
Season six of the podcast Reasonably Shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday.
As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama and reality news you can handle.
And you know we don't hold back.
So come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday.
I was going through a walk in my neighborhood.
Out of the blue, I see this huge sign next to somebody's house.
Okay.
The sign says, my neighbor is a Karen.
What?
No way.
I don't. died laughing.
I'm like, I have to know.
You are lying.
Humongous, y'all.
They had some time on their hands.
Listen to Reasonably Shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
So you move in with your partner, you're feeling super grown up, and then you find yourself regressing.
Why is that?
There's a really key psychoanalytic theory you should know, called object relations theory.
That explains this really well.
The theory was developed in psychoanalytic psychology by Melanie Klein and Donald Winnicott and, And they basically suggest that our earliest relationships, ie those with our parents or caregivers, become internalized as objects.
And by that, I don't mean physical objects, but emotional templates.
These internal objects or templates represent how we learn to relate to love, relate to care, safety and dependence.
For example, if your primary caregiver was warm and reliable.
Your internal template or object is one that tells you that intimacy feels safe, that love can be trusted.
But if your caregiver was inconsistent was critical, love was conditional.
You carry around an internal template that says love is unstable.
Love has to be earned.
Fast forward to your 20s and suddenly you know you're living with your partner, the person who is closest to you since those original caregivers.
Those internalized dynamics will reappear.
This is where this concept of transference comes in.
This is the process whereby we project old feelings and expectations back from our early relationships onto our current ones, especially during times when things feel a bit unstable or new, like when you move in with somebody.
It's fun.
It's also stressful.
Transference makes cohabitation so emotionally rich that, Because you're sharing internal worlds, you're sharing emotional histories.
Just the nature of the environment and the closeness that you are having is going to feel reminiscent of previous times.
You felt this close to people.
And those reactive or reactionary patterns will often be the same.
Now, the thing is, this is not always a bad thing.
Sometimes it's actually an opportunity to rewrite previous models, previous templates of how you relate to people.
You know, unlike your family dynamic, this relationship is chosen.
You're not a kid anymore.
You have self-awareness.
You have hopefully a quality.
You can communicate and you can actually address issues that come up in a way that your childhood self couldn't and say Hey, you know, when you get quiet during arguments, it reminds me of how silence felt in my house.
I don't want to do that anymore.
Can we talk about this differently?
I need you to be or to make more time for me, because otherwise I feel my abandonment wound really firing up.
And that's how transference really can turn into deep emotional transformation.
If you are with the right person and you're living together, you get to rewrite the emotional scripts you were handed.
You create new templates for what love and safety and care can feel like.
And I count that as a huge pro.
I think a lot of my cons are also pros, right?
When else do you have the opportunity?
And it truly is an opportunity to rewire your primal childhood wounds.
So just to give it a little rundown, pros, convenience, makes financial sense.
Now the pro of living together is it's just a lot of fun.
It also challenges your emotional bond and it really tells you whether you should or shouldn't be with somebody.
You know, obviously that might end in a breakup.
That's not necessarily a bad thing if it saves you a lot of time.
So with that in mind, let's switch gears.
Let's talk about the harder parts, the things you should definitely be aware of before choosing to live with somebody in your 20s.
Now, one of the biggest drawbacks and it's going to be ironic that I mentioned this, considering what I just said is that any future breakup is going to be a lot more complicated.
Not that it isn't going to be right.
It's just going to be complicated.
And no matter how in love you are, how strong the first few months of living together are, how strong you guys are as a couple before you move in, You are going to have moments where you fight and you argue and you feel like you know what are we doing.
Like, can we work through this?
It's just totally normal for couples to go through that.
And maybe the answer you come to is no.
When you live separately and you break up.
You don't have kids, you don't have shared furniture, you don't have a pet, you can just leave.
You cry, you unfollow, you heal.
Your space is not their space.
When you live together, there's a lease, there's shared furniture, there's the shared pet, there's a shared life, there's shared bank accounts, maybe.
These logistics alone can turn an emotionally hard breakup into a logistical nightmare.
This has happened to a few friends of mine.
And it was honestly really hard to see them go through it.
I know it was for the best, but at times one of my friends had to continue living in an apartment with somebody who cheated on her.
And the guy was in a new relationship because they had this lease and she couldn't afford to break it.
That is tough.
Or the alternative is you ignore red flags to avoid the complications of a breakup because mentally, now that you live together, you think it's going to be way too difficult.
There is a term for this in psychology.
It's called relationship inertia.
It describes how living together can actually make people stay in relationships longer than they would have otherwise, simply because it's harder to leave.
The thought of moving out, the thought of dividing belongings, of finding a new place it can all make staying just seem a lot easier, even if you're unhappy.
And then where does that leave you?
In a relationship you don't want to be in, or because you made a decision, maybe a little bit too early.
We're gonna return to the role of finances here as well.
It comes up yet again.
I feel like money is both the biggest pro and the biggest con.
Sharing rent and bills seems like it's gonna be straightforward.
It's gonna save you money.
It does actually introduce a layer of dependency that can be really tricky to navigate.
What happens if one of you loses a job?
What if you earn significantly different amounts?
Do you split everything 50-50 or do you split it proportionally?
What if you buy a property?
You know, that's a whole other legal layer.
Money, as we know from research conducted in 2014, is the biggest source of relationship conflict, and cohabitation.
Brings that right to the surface.
It's also, as that previous study said, one of the I actually saw a recent Vice article aptly titled Till Debt, Do Us Part, which talked about this.
And one of the surveys they discussed found that nearly one in four Americans in a relationship would leave if they knew they could get out without going broke.
That is a quarter of the people they spoke to.
A quarter of people were like, I actually don't want to be in this relationship.
Money is what's keeping me here.
And this is what the financial state of so many countries is encouraging.
It's economic codependence that means people are staying in relationships way longer than they should.
And of course that doesn't mean living together dooms you to inertia or dooms you to financial codependency.
You just have to be extra aware of your motivations.
And I do also think that it's wise to still have your own bank account, to still have some of your own money.
You know, you might trust this person with your life.
People still make stupid mistakes.
Things do still happen.
It's not about having one foot out the door.
It's just about being prepared for what life throws at you in the most rational and best possible way.
Another practical con of moving in together is you do lose a lot of personal space, and you just got to assess whether that's something you're willing to lose.
You.
It's the best I love living alone.
You get to walk around in silence, you get to make as much or as little of a mess as possible.
Your room and your house always gets to feel the way you want it to feel.
You're in charge of the furniture.
You're in charge of what's on the TV.
When you live with somebody else, that solitude and the freedom of that solitude does drastically shrink.
Suddenly, your downtime is shared time.
Your home, the place that you used to retreat to, does become a shared environment.
And yes, in an ideal world, you choose to be in a relationship where you can be your wacky wonderful, weird self in front of them comfortably.
But regardless of that, you still do need personal time to function.
One estimate I found suggests that the perfect race for a relationship is 70 of time together, 30 of time alone.
That's the maximum level that people can handle.
So what I mean by is like if it went any higher than that.
That's when a relationship does deeply suffer or does become hyperdependent.
You just need to be able to recognize yourself as an individual.
That's really what it means to be functioning in this relationship and out of it.
Having enough time to know who you are. outside of the bounds of who this person is to you.
I think what works for me and Tom is that I work from home all day.
So I spend a lot of time by myself whilst he is obviously at work and he has coworkers.
And then when he gets home, I'll be out and we kind of switch shifts where he has his alone time.
And that works really well for us.
That you know, our evenings and our days on the week are kind of a little bit separate.
Like obviously we still see each other when one of us gets home and we still go to the gym together and all that stuff.
But then on weekends is when we have our quality time, right?
We always take...
Talu our dog on like a big adventure you know it's her weekend too and then we like do a big grocery shop we go for a big run we do a date night it's the best that works for us because I need a lot more alone time than he does my work situation his work situation allows that he's in the office full-time I'm at home full-time but it's all about just managing expectations and making sure that they're aligned with that in mind let's talk about expectations for a second here Living together will raise your expectations for your partner.
This person is no longer your weekend fun.
This is your partner, as in needs to be by your side, should be by your side.
Has to support you through good and bad.
Your expectations for them obviously increase.
And when those expectations aren't met, resentment will grow in their place.
Resentment, as we know from relationship institutes, relationship researchers like the Gottman Institute, is like a huge poison for a relationship.
If you resent the other person without communicating it, your relationship isn't going to last.
And the first few months are usually the hardest, when you are adjusting to each other's rhythms, you are adjusting to each other's routines and emotional lives.
Conflict is going to increase in this time.
I'm just going to let you know that.
Before you move in together, before you sign the lease like you are going to fight, probably the most in your relationship than you ever have in the first, like six months that you live together.
It's not a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
It's an adjustment thing.
Just make sure you get to a solid ground with each other around what your expectations are now.
And what you maybe do and don't need from the relationship, or from the future of your relationship, to remain happy in this like new chapter that you're sharing.
So, with all that in mind, I want to talk about the five things you need to be super clear on before living with somebody in your 20s.
The first one is money.
So number one, you need to understand finances.
And I have five things that you need to agree on or sit down with each other and talk about before you sign the lease.
How is rent going to be split?
I literally want you to get a piece of pen and paper and write this down, like you are writing down a contract.
How is rent going to be split?
Are you going to have shared accounts?
Who is responsible for managing and paying bills and when and which and does that change?
What will you buy together and what will you buy separately?
So like groceries, maybe one of you has really expensive hair care products.
Maybe one of you has a car that the other person uses.
Like what are you going to pay for separately and together?
What is your plan if one of you loses your income or loses your job?
These are pretty dry questions, super dry, but super important to iron out.
Literally.
I want you to write this down and put it in your cutlery drawer for future reference to come back to.
Next, chores and domestic labor.
Something seemingly as small as who does the dishes is very symbolically loaded.
And the research is full of studies that demonstrate this.
The unequal division of household work is a significant predictor of relationship breakdown.
I think chores are like a microcosm of the relationship.
They're super small.
Within them, big themes get represented.
How do we share responsibility?
How do we respect each other's time?
How do we express care?
And here's the uncomfortable truth about it.
You know, in heterosexual relationships in particular, even amongst progressive modern couples, the household load will still tend to fall heavily on women.
Multiple studies, including research from the Pew Research Center from the University of Michigan, they found that women in cohabitating or married relationships still perform a disproportionate share of domestic labor, even when they work more hours at their actual jobs, even when both partners work full time.
Sociologists call this, they actually have a name for it, the second shift.
It's a term coined by Ali Hochschild to describe how women often work a full day professionally and they come back and work a second job of managing the household.
And it's not always intentional.
It's not malicious.
It's just deeply ingrained social conditioning.
Women are often raised to notice domestic needs, to anticipate when the laundry is piling up, when the bathroom needs scrubbing, when the fridge is empty.
You know I feel so lucky that and I'm not trying to brag, I know how this is going to come off but like my boyfriend does all that stuff.
In fact, I think it's unequal for him, which is a win for feminism.
But I also know I pay more of the household expenses.
So we've just found something that works for us.
And I also think that for me, like I take on more of the thinking about our lives.
He does more of the physical labor when it comes or the physical chores when it comes to our lives.
This brings me to the next point.
The mental load, the invisible labor of remembering planning, anticipating is Even in relationships where both partners are trying to be fair when it comes to chores.
It's not just about tasks.
It's about who keeps track of them.
I feel like this is something a lot of men don't realize.
Women don't want to have to ask you to do something.
You doing something because she asked is not as good as you doing something because you anticipated that it needed to be done.
So when you move in together, it's really worth having a conversation.
What does equal actually mean?
What does mental load and the mental energy required for the upkeep of a home actually mean?
Who's going to take that on?
How are we going to have conversations around when things may fall off from being equal?
Because they will, like people get more busy at work, people travel.
You need to know who is responsible for those conversations and who is responsible for those activities.
The good news, this is one of the easiest things to get right if you're conscious about it.
You can very easily create systems that distribute work and mental load, that alternate responsibilities, if you talk about it openly and if you're with somebody who is going to be willing to meet you in the middle, meet you halfway.
Okay, we're going to take another quick break.
But when we return, let's talk about the two final things you should have ironed out before moving in with somebody and some final tips for keeping the love flowing.
So stay with us.
In the new podcast Hell in Heaven, two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over.
But one will end up dead.
The other tried for murder.
Not once.
People went wild.
Not twice.
Stunned.
But three times.
John and Ann Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other.
They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill.
But little by little, their dream starts to crumble, and our couple retreat from reality.
They lose it.
They actually lose it.
They sort of went nuts.
Until one night, everything spins out of control.
Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Here we go.
Hey, I'm Cal Penn and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again.
We'll take today's trends and headlines and ask why does history keep repeating itself?
You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer and, as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host.
Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics and pop culture.
And each week, one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions.
Like, are we heading towards another financial crash like in 08?
Is non-monogamy back in style?
And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early?
We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh and Bill Nye.
When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.
Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now because it is.
But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future.
Listen and subscribe to.
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The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday.
A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market.
What does a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich reveal about the economy?
Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outsized indicators of inflation.
What's behind Elon Musk's trillion dollar payout?
There's a sort of concerted effort to message that Musk is coming back.
He's putting politics aside.
He's left the White House.
And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't?
CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumers are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure.
Listen to The Big Take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
A combat surgeon with secrets, a world built on power and privilege and the most unexpected creative duo of the year.
As an actor for so many years, I would always walk into other people's stories.
And I thought, well, why don't I give it a shot, you know, and try to write up my thoughts?
This week, Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, goes live from Apple Soho in New York City with Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben the powerhouse team behind.
Gone Before Goodbye, now a New York Times bestseller.
I think we both knew right away that this was going to happen.
It's a conversation about fear, ambition, and what happens when two master storytellers collide.
I've never seen a woman in kind of a James Bond world.
Come for the chills and stay for the surprises.
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Jenna World, Jenna Jameson, Vivid Video and The Valley is a new podcast about the history of the adult film industry.
I'm Molly Lambert, host of Heidi World, The Heidi Fleiss Story, and I'll be your tour guide on a wild ride through adult films.
We get paid more than the men.
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In what way is that degrading?
That's us taking hold of our life.
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I'm a powerful woman.
I think that's intimidating to a man.
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We'll take a look at how adult films became legal in the 70s, hugely profitable in the 80s and 90s, and fell off a financial cliff in the 2000s.
Listen to Jenna World on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
So we've talked about mental load.
We've talked about money.
The next important thing to consider is what happens when you need alone time.
Just because you live together doesn't mean you have to spend every second and every moment together.
I think the healthiest thing you can do is maintain a sense of individuality.
It's very easy to slip into social dependency, emotional dependency, because your partner is right there.
Independence is what keeps the relationship fresh.
I really think it's important, before you move in with each other, to make sure that your personal lives and your individual lives are just as full and just as fruitful as the life you share together.
You have hobbies, you have friends outside of the relationship or you're committed to making new friends outside of the relationship, and So maybe it's just not something you have to think about.
But if you do, and if you have any doubts about that, I think give it some time so that you have independent lives before you merge them.
I also think it's really important on the flip side to schedule like dates in with each other, even if you live with each other.
You need to have like a little ritual for your relationship.
I think couples who keep dating each other tend to have the longest and healthiest relationships, because it's no longer passive.
They're not just like a roommate anymore.
They are somebody that you're actively still falling in love with.
So make sure you schedule the solo dates, schedule the solo nights.
Also schedule the couple time and the couple dates to make it special.
And finally, the final thing you should have ironed out of our five things is what is the protocol on guests?
You don't want to feel like you're tiptoeing around your house when your partner's friends are around.
You don't want to feel like you have to tell them no when their family visits, that you having mismatched comfort levels around these things is normal.
It's also going to create tension and it's going to cause you to turn against each other.
Have those conversations early.
Have them intentionally, because when you move in with somebody like you are merging emotional internal, psychological lives.
This place is also their place as much as it is yours.
And of course, you want them to respect your wishes.
But if there is this huge mismatch, it's probably worth just getting to the bottom of before you sign the lease.
I also think it's a great mark of respect if you're both really considered in these kinds of decisions.
It's not the end of the world to change your mind about these things.
It's not the end of the world to have moments where somebody doesn't maybe necessarily think about the other person's feelings as clearly as they should.
It's okay to have moments of being really annoyed and frustrating.
You are on the same team though.
You are partners before you are roommates.
Just continue to revise and continue to talk about it.
So, before we wrap up, I want to give you some final questions to ask yourself before making the biggest best, greatest decision of moving in with somebody.
Answer these in your head, use them as journal prompts, whatever you need to do.
Maybe you can even talk about them with your partner, whatever you want.
Just have these in the back of your mind.
I think they will reveal whether this is the right decision or not.
Number one, why do you want to move in?
Are you sliding or are you deciding?
Is it because it feels right emotionally or convenient financially?
Neither is necessarily wrong, but just be clear on your intentions.
Second, how do you typically individually handle conflict?
And is there something that you could be doing or thinking about that could help you handle that better?
Third, do you feel emotionally and physically safe with this person?
You know you are going to see each other at your very, very best and your very very worst.
Safety, whether it's emotional psychological physical, is a non-negotiable.
Is this person going to help you grow through hard times and do you feel like you can trust them?
Fourth, are you on the same page about the future?
Not necessarily about marriage, but just about the future in general, what this move means for your relationship?
I don't know if anybody else has been watching nobody wants this but I feel like there is.
I don't want to do spoilers.
There is a specific scene in the latest season where they well, I'm going to spoil it where they talk about moving in with each other and And I just feel like the way they go about it is quite Well, one of them is quite mature and the rabbi is quite mature and Kristen Bell's character isn't.
But I really agreed with him where he was like, I don't know if we have a future together.
If you have doubts about it, it's not saying you have to know, you don't have to have a ring.
But if you can see there is a genuine fundamental incompatibility that you just keep sweeping under the rug.
Maybe don't do it.
Maybe that is an incompatibility that you work through that someone changes their mind about.
But just be sure that this is something that's going to benefit and level up your relationship and that the relationship has a future in general.
Number five, are you ready to share your space in this way?
Love is one thing, living together is another.
You can adore somebody and still realize you're not quite ready to merge your worlds.
It's okay to wait.
I feel like me and Tom had this discussion where we were like I'm sure we could do it, but would this give us the best chances of enjoying it?
When we like moving in with each other this early on, probably not.
We're not ready to share space.
We're not ready to share our lives yet.
In this way, we are going to wait.
And it was a great decision.
And a bonus question.
Do you feel stable enough in yourself to make this choice?
Now, obviously, circumstances change.
Maybe you're getting kicked out of your apartment.
Maybe you're super broke and you don't feel that stable in your life.
But ideally, you should feel like there is not too much chaos going on.
There is not too much chaos that is directly impacting this decision.
This is a decision I am deciding on rather than sliding into.
For to give yourself the best chances that this relationship is going to work.
You obviously really love this person.
You really care about this person.
Know yourself.
If you have a tendency to rush into things, to self-sabotage, to get really excited, if this person is your forever person, you will get there eventually.
You will move in with them eventually.
If you feel like your life is not stable enough for you to make a rational choice about it, just hold off.
Hold off a little bit.
I think at its best, living with your partner in your 20s is really fun and it's really beautiful and you really get to know each other more and it's convenient and it makes financial sense.
You do close a chapter of your life that you have to feel ready to close.
I will say, again, I keep saying this, I love living with Tom.
There was definitely a part of me that mourned the fact that unless something really bad happens...
That I would obviously want to avoid.
Like one of us dies or we break up, like I'm going to be sharing a bed with this man for hopefully, the rest of my life.
That makes me feel excited.
I'm happy about that.
There is definitely a part of me that did warn, you know living alone and did mourn the independence of being single and the independence of just being alone in my space and just getting to live and operate every single day without having to think about somebody else.
It is like there is obviously like an equation that is inherent in this.
You do have to give up something to gain something.
Are you ready to give that up?
Have you learned what you needed to learn from your alone time, from your living alone time, from your, even like your single era time?
Obviously, you're not single if like you've been dating them for a while.
But like, I don't know what the word for it is.
Alone time.
Okay, we'll go with that. with your alone time.
Okay, I'm going to stop trying to find the right word.
Your alone time is what I mean.
Just be really, really cognizant of it.
You don't want to feel suffocated.
You don't want to feel like you rushed into this prematurely and then you have to go back and you have to explain things and it's going to get messy.
I just think the longer you wait, especially the longer you outweigh the honeymoon period, the better it's going to be.
So as for the question, should you move in with your partner in your 20s?
I don't know.
There's no universal answer, but I just think, consider those points, consider those questions, consider the pros and cons.
And if you stand to gain more than you stand to lose which I don't think you will lose all too much.
Absolutely, you should do it.
And have the best time at Ikea.
Have the best time painting.
Have the best time going house hunting.
It's so much fun.
It's so enjoyable.
And I'm excited for you and for your next chapter.
If you made it this far in the episode, if you made it all the way to the end, leave a little house emoji down below.
Thanks for being a loyal listener.
Thanks for making it to the conclusion of this episode.
I want to thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her help on this episode and her contributions.
If you want to make an episode suggestion, if you want to tell me about your experience moving in with somebody, whether it was good bad, what your tips are, Send me a DM on Instagram at that psychology podcast and make sure you're following us over there as well.
Make sure you are following us wherever you are listening.
And please, if you could kindly give us a five star review.
It really helps the show to grow and reach new people.
Whether you're listening on Apple, on Spotify, on the iHeartRadio app, I would greatly appreciate it.
But until next time, thanks again for tuning in.
Stay safe.
Be kind.
Be gentle to yourself.
Good luck with the potential move in.
And we will talk very, very soon.
Hey, I'm Kal Penn and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again.
We'll take today's trends and headlines and ask why does history keep repeating itself?
Each week, I'm calling up my friends like Bill Nye, Lilly Singh, and Pete Buttigieg to talk about everything from the space race to movie remakes to psychedelics.
Put another way, are you high?
Yeah.
Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now, but my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future.
Listen and subscribe to.
Here We Go Again with Cal Penn on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News keeps you on top of the biggest stories of the day.
My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day.
Stories that move markets.
Chair Powell opened the door to this first interest rate cut.
Impact politics.
Change businesses.
This is a really stunning development for the AI world.
And how you think about your bottom line.
Listen to The Big Take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over, but one of them will end up dead and the other tried for murder three times.
It starts with a dream, a nature reserve and a spectacular new home.
But little by little... They lose it.
They actually lose it.
They sort of went nuts.
..until one night... ..everything spins out of control.
Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Coben, and says let's write a book together?
I was asking him basically to let me into his secret thriller writing world.
This week, Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup.
Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller, Gone Before Goodbye.
You think you're going to read for 10 minutes, and next thing you know, it's four in the morning.
Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already a New York Times bestseller.
Listen to, Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
You know the shade is always shadiest right here.
Season six of the podcast Reasonably Shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday.
As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama and reality news you can handle.
And you know we don't hold back.
So come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday.
Listen to Reasonably Shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
