It completely changed my energy levels.
It made me exothermic again.
It made me excited again.
It made me want to recommit year after year after year to Shopify and to Tobii and to this mission that we're on.
Go a little deeper on your father and how that's impacted you and what that relationship was like.
At 17 years old, the rug I pulled from me and I was forced to basically grow up overnight.
Ultimately, if you think about the mission of Shopify, it's we want to create more entrepreneurs.
We want to make entrepreneurship more accessible, but we think that entrepreneurship allows anyone to do that.
It's the great equalizer.
The way that I think I had the most amount of value to Shopify is the same thing that I want to be more classed at, which is… I want to start with what areas of your life do you think you have what other people would consider unreasonably high standards?
nerds um maybe start with i mean professionally i think i am i'm pretty hard on myself in terms of achievement um years ago i read something about the concept of of abundance versus uh scarcity mindsets and i think generally i do not have an abundance mindset about the things in my life.
Some of that may be, I don't know, this is going deep in the first minute, but some of them might just be like multi -generational trauma, which I actually believe in.
I think I carry some of the weight of my grandparents, Holocaust survivors, the weight of my father who struggled his whole life financially.
But I think the way it manifests most is probably with my own career that I don't, I still don't think I'm doing enough, that I have enough, that I am am enough.
And, um, that's probably the largest area where I think I have very high standards.
Maybe the second one is just, I have very high standards for relationships.
I think that the friendships that I have, I hold very dearly in my life.
And because I hold them dearly, I hold them up to a very high caliber of quality.
And sometimes that disappoints people.
Sometimes that means those people disappoint me.
Um, those are probably the two major ones.
Go a little deeper on your father and how that's impacted you and what that relationship was like.
My dad is an immigrant.
We're sitting here in Montreal.
He immigrated here in the 50s.
His parents were Holocaust survivors.
After the Holocaust, they were in the concentration camps.
They survived. They went to Hungary, to a town called Debrecen.
And during the Hungarian Revolution, things got really bad for everyone, but especially for Jews.
Canada had this amazing program where they let 40 ,000 Hungarian immigrants come to Canada in the revolution so actually in Canada if you meet Hungarians generally they came in 56 because this sort of cohort of Hungarians came in the 50s they all came by boat and my dad when they got here they didn't have any money they had no didn't know anyone here they certainly didn't have any education so my grandfather ended up selling eggs at a local farmer's market not too far from here called the Jean Talan farmers market and he created this egg stand he called it Le Capitan it still stands there today
my uncle runs it it's been around for I don't know 75 years something like that and um I think my dad was always very ambitious he was he had that sort of that that immigrant ambition he wanted to he wanted to have a better life that his parents had he wanted his children have a better life than he had and growing up he always always sort of made us feel like we had enough.
There was never sort of a sense of scarcity in the house whatsoever.
It was only later in life that I realized that it was a bit of a fugazi.
It was fake, that we really didn't have very much. But at the time, I didn't know that.
It felt like I had enough.
And where things came to a head, and you and I have been friends for a long time, so you know the story, was when I was 17, my dad was arrested.
I went to prison. and that was sort of the first time that I saw true vulnerability.
That's where it all sort of – the facade of a secure foundation came crumbling down for me.
I had just moved. We were living in South Florida.
I had just moved to Montreal here.
It was 2001 to go to McGill.
Mom calls and says, Dad's been arrested.
He was arrested for white -collar crimes and for business crimes, and I was mad at him.
I was disappointed at him.
I was too young to fully have the maturity to know what this all meant.
And I think a lot of people talk about, you know, how trauma in their lives dictate the rest of their lives.
I think the moment actually there's an apartment not too far from here on the corner of Dr. Penfield and peel uh there's an apartment in that building uh i think it's apartment 405 where there's probably not there anymore but there is a there was a hole in the wall where after my mother called me to tell me my dad was arrested i took the phone and threw it against the wall and and and dented the wall we can sort of get into what happened after that but if you sort of fast forward today my dad's back in my life i have a great relationship with him i think like a lot of of people that are of my
vintage i'm 41 you do begin around this stage of life to have this epiphany or at least this realization that like the relationship of parent and child flips a little bit in some ways i feel like i'm sort of the parent to my to my parents now i wasn't ready for that that sort of came out of nowhere my parents turned 70 and it just something to be changed but my relationship with my dad is is is it's loving and um i have deep admiration for the life he's given me but certainly i think some of the trauma he sustained from being an immigrant from being the child of holocaust survivors i've adopted
that through his experiences but also to the fact that at 17 years old that the rug i pulled from me and i was was forced to basically grow up overnight.
Was that the moment where your standards for yourself changed?
Because I guess what I'm getting into is, like, so often we're born into a situation, a household.
We're surrounded by people.
We don't choose them.
You know, we don't choose our parents.
We don't choose our zip code.
We don't choose concentration camps or anything like that.
We're put in these situations, and we adopt the standards of the people, the mindset of the people that we're in, And then there's like another level to it, often for a lot of us.
If we're not born into a situation where a parent has a high standard for themselves, then we don't adopt that ourselves.
And I think a lot of entrepreneurs share this constant, I can be doing more.
I can be doing better.
There's a gap between where I perceive I could be and where I am.
I remember we moved to South Florida in 1996 or 1995 or so.
I was around 12 years old.
The area we moved into, it was in Boca Raton, Florida, in Palm Beach County.
Boca is well known as being a fairly wealthy area.
But we were not wealthy.
I mean, again, when we lived in Montreal, I didn't experience any – there was always food on my table.
I always felt like – you know, I didn't always have all the stuff that I wanted, the Air Jordans.
this but i had one pair of air jordans um and so i didn't i didn't live a life of of where i didn't have enough growing up but i remember moving to south florida and that was the first time i think that i realized that other people have a lot more than i did there were gated communities everywhere but we didn't live in one there were incredible private schools everywhere but i couldn't attend one because it was too expensive it was sort of in that age group in that sort of range where i I began to realize that my father wanted to have a better life than he did.
That he wasn't living in a community where we were the average or we were above average.
We were living in a community where we were below average.
I remember asking my parents why I couldn't go to private school.
There were these beautiful private schools all over Boca Raton with these big, beautiful gates and these wonderful buildings.
And I remember asking my parents, why can't I go to Pinecrest or St. Andrews, which are the two big schools?
And my mom said, we can't afford it.
It was like $30 ,000 a year, which was an insane amount of money for my parents at that point.
And I think that's actually around when I began to get my first chip on my shoulder.
Something didn't sit fully well with me.
And I think the way it manifested was ambition, competitiveness, some insecurity.
I mean, there I was going to a public high school in South Florida.
I was a short Jewish kid from Montreal, Canada, moved to South Florida, had no friends or family.
There were 4 ,000 students at the school.
And there were students from all different backgrounds.
Some were being bussed in from Delray, a much lower -income community.
There were police officers because that's what you had at big American public high schools.
And I was scared shitless.
I don't know sort of what drove me then, but like within a year I was like president of student council.
I was wrestling varsity because I figured out actually one of the advantages of being short and kind of stocky was I was a pretty good wrestler.
And so I was able to change my circumstances by sheer will at that point.
The second thing that happened around that same period of time was that I really, I was 13 and as you've heard before, you heard me talk about all 13 year old Jewish kids go to a lot of bar mitzvahs almost every weekend.
And I was enamored by DJs.
I thought these DJs at these bar mitzvahs were like magicians.
And I really thought these were the coolest people I'd ever seen.
and although my dad didn't have a lot of money the one thing he he did do and he's done this my whole life was anytime i i had an idea that i shared with my father he would say great idea he actually there would be a physical manifestation of that which was that he would make me these business cards and uh um tonight you and i are having dinner at my home and i will go to my off my home office and i will show you those early business cards but i still have them lined up in my office every time i had a silly idea about a business my father would come home with a business card that said my name
and the business name and it was this very simple physical device that was the equivalent of him saying you absolutely can do this you weren't you you you have the capacity you have the willpower you are you have the entitlement like you are you can do this you have the permission to go do this and i ended up djing 500 bar mitzvahs after that started my own dj company hired myself and that was sort of my relationship with my dad over my life, which is that I don't think I fully understood the baggage he was carrying with him his whole life.
But he was unequivocally supportive and loving of me.
And even when years later, when he went away and we lost all our money, it was tough for me to hate him.
Because ultimately, what I really believed was he was doing it for me, that he He was taking massive risks with his own life and his own freedom in order to give me and my two much younger— one of my sisters is 10 years younger, the other is three years younger.
He was doing it to give me and my siblings a much better life.
And he was willing to risk what ended up being five or six years of federal prison time to provide that for us.
and as i sort of reflect on on my upbringing in my childhood it'd be difficult for me not to credit his transfer of confidence to me with kind of how i ended up so i have i have anxiety now uh i i am uh constantly you know trying to do more feel more build more have more that that that that That feeling of scarcity is in me.
There's a bunch of negative externalities that come with that.
But the other thing that came with it is what I believe to be an incredible amount of ambition.
And that ambition and that energy, you and I have a lot of mutual friends, and I think most of our mutual friends would describe me as someone that is constantly high energy.
That high energy mostly comes from a place of joie de vivre and excitement.
excitement and, you know, I heard this great quote that part of being happy is being excited by the elements, all the elements of your life.
I'm excited by all the elements of my life.
And I think that while I probably have a complicated relationship with my dad, I am here and I have this life partially because of him.
Thank you for sharing that.
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going into all the elements of your life I know you're very selective about the things that you take on and the things that you do and you say no to a lot I want to explore that a little bit what do you want to be world class at and so what are the key elements of your life that you're pushing on I am I'm not a generalist I've never been a generalist if you were to ask Lindsay if if you'd ask my wife, in fact, if you were to ask my eight -year -old daughter, Bailey, or my six -year -old daughter, Zoe, what our family motto is, they'd all tell you the exact same thing.
It is, how you do anything is how you do everything.
That is our family motto, which frankly it means, because they're six and eight, it means it's my family motto.
And I've just sort of told them that's our family motto and they've adopted it wholesale.
Eventually they'll be old enough to decide whether it's for them or not.
But that motto, certainly for me and Lindsay, my wife, it describes our life.
There is an intentionality about everything that we do in our lives.
The way that I think about leading this incredible company with my team at Shopify, to the way Lindsay thinks about cooking dinner, to the wine that I've been thinking about, you and I are going to drink later tonight.
There's a great intentionality about all these things.
I think that makes life fun and interesting.
What I've come to realize wise, this is my 16th year at Shopify.
I'm 41, so I've been here for not quite half my life, but almost. The way that I think I had the most amount of value to Shopify is the same thing that I want to be world -class at, which is I want to be a great storyteller.
I don't think I'm there yet.
I've met truly world -class storytellers.
We can sort of get into some of those later on.
I'm not there yet, but that is the thing I want to be the best at.
I love playing tennis.
I don't think I'm a world -class tennis player.
I love to ski. Don't think I'm ever gonna be a world -class skier.
There are things in my life, like DJ, I don't think I'm ever gonna be a world -class DJ.
There are things that I do in my life that are fun, that are strictly for enjoyment, and I enjoy the craft of it.
But storytelling in particular is something that when I look at all the different things I've done at Shopify, it's a thing that I think has added the most amount of value to the company.
And this also speaks to my dynamic, this yin and yang dynamic that I have with Toby, which is that I've sort of always, in hindsight now, I can sort of see this, but I've always sort of viewed my role as he is the greatest product person I've ever met in my life.
He's this incredible tech visionary, especially when it comes to commerce.
And my job has kind of always been to take the brilliant things he's built and tell the world about it, tell investors, tell the media, tell our merchants, tell partners.
And it gives me great joy.
I love doing it. It's that, you know, when your Saturday morning feels like your Monday morning, you know you're onto something really great which is sort of the opposite of you know what people describe as like sunday scaries which i've never felt my whole life but i know people do find that that to be a real thing it's storytelling i love that and you also want to be a world -class father and husband those are harder things very difficult to ping the satellite and get a ping back to know whether or not that's actually happening.
With storytelling, I can get third -party objective feedback.
Being a world -class father and husband, it's more difficult to track that.
But those are things that are very important to me.
It is very important to me that my kids believe that I'm a world -class father and my wife thinks I'm a world -class husband.
And that comes actually less natural to me than storytelling.
Storytelling is sort of my ground state it's the thing that i would do if if you know if i didn't have anything else to do and and i was left to my own devices i would tell stories i like telling stories being a great husband often means doing things that are unnatural um a simple example that i think a lot of us fall into the trap of um seems to be more of a uh something that that men suffer from at least in my experience which is that lindsey comes home with a problem and my immediate reaction is to try to help her solve that problem I don't know it's biological I'm not sure it's my whether
it's my amygdala or my lizard brain but there's some my reflexively I go into problem solving mode it feels like like that's what I'm supposed to do and eight out of ten times it's not what she wants and so because i know that i'm bad at that we've created these you know our version of mnemonic devices which is like i now ask her do you want me to solve this problem or do you want me to just listen and almost always she just wants me to listen so in this in in the the opposite of like you know someone asked me a question on a topic and i can go on a tangent about a story i actually have to spend
a lot of time moving from my amygdala to my prefrontal cortex to actually be a great husband to her same thing with the kids um often what i realize is my reflex with my with bailey and zoe is often the wrong thing bailey tells me about a problem i go in solution mode and what lindsey will often say is that's not what she was asking you to do she just wanted to be heard or she was looking for your advice or she wasn't looking for you to solve the problem for her so that journey i think i'm i am um i'm not i'm not at the sort of escape velocity yet with those two things i want to get good at i
think it's interesting because a lot of people who hold themselves to high standards in any area hold themselves to high standards in every area and they want competing things they want to be world class at their profession they They also want to be world -class at being a father and world -class at being a mother or a partner.
And they want to be world -class at everything.
And these things often are in conflict with each other.
When I was younger, I used to play Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, when you pick your character, you basically pick a character for two reasons.
One is based on appearance.
You want the big character, you want the small character, you want the woman or the man or whatever the character might be.
the second element is you'll get the scores and either they're great at defense and then they're bad at offense or they're great at jumping but they're bad at kicking i think kind of life is like that a little bit too that you have to sort of pick your what you want to be good at you cannot be good at jumping defense offense kicking punching in sort of the you know in in the uh metaphor of street fighter i think you have to pick and i think that that's kind of what prioritization is it's deciding what you want and then reminding yourself of what you want there are things that every now and then
I get a glimmer of you know have I traveled the world enough probably not do I take my kids on enough you know like month -long trips safaris I don't I can't do that right now I have to select what I'm going to do I can't be everything to everyone and I've kind of made peace with that years ago that at this particular phase of my life this is is what I need.
And this is what I want.
It's also the reason why I'm very particular about who I spend my time with, because I do believe that there are genuinely energy vampires and energy catalysts in humans.
There's also energy vampires, energy catalysts, even in geographies.
I mean, you know, I moved to Montreal two years ago, partially was Montreal was this place that Lindsay and I kept finding was this energy catalyst for us, when we would come into the city, we'd spend time here something changed in our brains and I think you have to be deliberate about those things like what do you want to be good at what do you want to spend your time on who do you want to spend your time with where do you want to spend your time from from a geographic perspective and I think if you try to do all of it all the time you end up being very mediocre most people don't want to prioritize
because I mean they do in a way but they don't want to say no to anything they don't it's sort of like think about the courage to close doors and it's really hard to say no to things it's especially hard especially if those things there's an element of things that give you joy i don't think you can live i don't think the if you use the lens in your life of how you do anything is how you do everything you have to be very careful about like how you do things because if you want to do everything well or you want to to do everything with intentionality you just have to be selective i don't know anyone
who is great everything um the mentors in my life the role models in my life they tend to be spiky objects shopify is a team of spiky objects we often joke about it as like the island of misfit toys but what that what we really mean is that there's no there's no consultant in the world that would would have put together the team at Shopify in the early days, kind of in the, in the sort of the middle, you know, post IPO days, and certainly modern days right now in 2025, there's no team that like, there's no, no one will put together this team, but it works.
Why? Because there is this commitment on our team that whatever, whatever the thing you're responsible for, you are going to try to be the very, very best in the world at that particular thing.
Product, design, sales, storytelling, finance, legal, whatever that might be.
That's the commitment.
And then every year you have to requalify for that commitment.
When you look at other companies, I've sort of poked on Google a little bit on this, only because I know a few people there that are like this, but you do see much more well -rounded executives and more well -rounded leaders.
It's actually the reason why, net -net, I always prefer founder -led companies than professionally managed companies.
I think founder -led companies are more interesting.
Talk to me about the notion of requalifying for your job every year.
What does that mean?
It's in the sort of same way that we have this trust battery metaphor that at Shopify those with autonomy have a very high trust battery and those that end up having to leave the company, it's because their trust battery is so low that like an old cell phone, it just cannot be recharged.
You don't know exactly are you at 46 % or 66%, but you know direction where you're at.
The same thing exists for this requalification, that you can tell when someone, I think you can tell when someone is requalifying for their job.
What that means is, if you think about the growth of Shopify, which grows, we're going a lot, forget sort of the top line revenue or free cash or margin growth or anything like that, but just like the growth of Shopify, product areas, GMV, the number of merchants, the geographies, the impact we have on the world, it is growing at this massive pace.
I think in order to be on our team, especially to be a leader at Shopify, you have to believe that you have to want to keep getting better, meaning stasis is not acceptable.
The thing you did last year may have got you a high five and an attaboy and a pat on the back and whatever.
All the great stuff that comes along with that, that is not good enough anymore.
And actually at Shopify, I think that's truly, I mean, the source of that energy is toby that there's probably no one that i've ever met on the planet i've worked with toby now for almost two decades you know him very well too he's a friend of yours as well there is no one that pushes himself to be the very best at product and technology the way he does and so he inspires all of us to just continuously say okay last year it's pretty good this next year i think i can like i think there's another another gear left that's actually the the The gift that he has given me in my career is that he's consistently, over
almost a two -decade period, he has been the person more than anyone in my life, maybe other than Lindsay, who has seen a better version of me than I saw for myself.
He keeps reminding me all the time, it happened a couple weeks ago, we were on an off -site, that there is another gear in me.
and so now he presents that that optionality that that that opportunity and now it's up to me to actually go through um and I think for someone with my personality with someone with my ambition that works very well for me what does it look like when he reminds you that there's another level for you does he just come it doesn't come to you and say hey Harley there's another level for you what does he say he's much more german about it um which is funny because he sort of calls it the german it's like the german thing for him but it's actually also like the jewish mother thing for me which is you
know you just got 98 percent of your exam you go show your mom and your mom says great what happened the other two percent um which actually i've now learned it's actually very much uh um at least the way it's been described to me is that it's actually an immigrant thing but a lot of immigrant parents are like that like that's great but like what what happened here?
How can you do better?
So that's part of it.
The other part of it is just that when he gives me a compliment, it is because I went so above and beyond.
He basically sets a bar for me of what great looks like and doing my job really well is the expectation, knocking out of the park, going like resetting what corporate storytelling looks like or how to to do you know earnings when you do that exceptionally well that's when he says that was a great job and he is he's very thoughtful about how he explains how he gives those that was really great he kind of shows you that thing you did that is so far beyond the expectation of of the industry that you were resetting it there's this really great thing we talk about um which is it'd be really great like
i say this i say this a lot but i adopted from him which is every person in the works at shopify should be able to go to their industry conference whatever their category whatever area they're in business and they should give the keynote about how they're doing their job completely different than everybody in the crowd which is like the most global maxima not local maxima thing it is like the local maxima is like like you know you're at the top of the mountain you're doing better than everyone else is doing your job the global maxima which is like toby in in a nutshell is there's a whole other
mountain over here that's where that's how you requalify and that makes it incredibly challenging but also incredibly rewarding there's this you know thing about life's work i think it obviously gets lumped into like you know happiness and contentment all that sort of stuff also um we can talk about how to find your life's work but ultimately the way way you continue to do your life's work is when you feel fundamentally that you can see serious progress.
It's not type one fun, it's like type two fun.
And type two fun is the type of fun that you only realize that it was fun after you complete it.
In the middle of the race, it's not really that much fun.
It's at the finish line, you're like, wow, that was fun.
That tends to be the developmental journey of shopify a little anecdote about the that's your job that's what you're supposed to do i was at an nfl training camp and uh i was with carl dubas who was the gm of the maple leafs at the time we were watching this practice and this rookie receiver caught the ball and it was a great catch but he started celebrating the coach came over and he's like that's what you're supposed to do why are you celebrating i'm paying you to catch the ball your whole job you're paid to catch the ball and it stuck with me ever since then that's right it is um I think when you're
when you're playing at a certain level of of play whether it's through podcasts or through business or through sport or music you know or art music if you try to if you want to be above average most people can get there practice determination but this idea of thinking about things and sort of this like local maximum versus global maximum perspective creates a whole whole other surface area of which you can go and do crazy and cool stuff.
I do think that is difficult to do by yourself.
I think you actually are one of the unique situations where you hold yourself to such a high standard that you actually don't need anyone pulling you to get better at your craft because you hold yourself to this ridiculous standard. Most people are not like that.
Most people need someone else to help them pull up to the next level.
And if you find someone like that and you can you sort of mutually commit to one another I mean that's real partnership that makes for that's how you build a hundred billion dollar company I think it's fascinating because I tell my kids that right like when you're at school like try to partner with the people who are going to hold you to the highest standard who are going to demand the most from you who are going to show you what you're capable of and what you can do and they take that too and they hold other people to really high standards that's right that's right and then you sort of you know it's
it It is ironic, though, and almost paradoxical, that, you know, the people that you often hang out with in high school or school in general tend to be very much like you.
And what I've actually experienced is that actually the best partnerships, at least from a business perspective, are people that are totally not like you.
Totally. I'm not sure Toby and I would have been friends in high school.
I was class president.
He was, like, taking apart computers in his bedroom.
The people you tend to spend more time with that you gravitate to, you tend to have similar interests with.
You tend to have similar skill sets with.
You're both into basketball, you're both into, you know, debate club or whatever it might be.
But actually, if you're in high school right now and you're watching this and you want to start a company, my advice would be if you're in like drama club, go find someone like in the AV club and then go find someone in like the computer, like the coding club and go find someone like who's painting.
And those should be your co -founders because each of you now can bring different skill sets to the table and together you can build something remarkable.
Remarkable. My youngest wants to start a company and he's like, why should I go to university?
Why do I want to go to college?
He's like, I don't need that.
And I'm like, well, maybe just to find a co -founder.
I want to come back to sort of requalifying for your job, though, because you switched from being COO to being president or chief storyteller, as you call it.
Talk to me about that transition, how you came to realize that was the thing, because you went from thousands of people reporting to you to a smaller number, even if it's a lot of people, it's still much smaller.
At a seven or 8 ,000 person company, like a small number of people, still a lot of people.
But yeah, that was, okay, so a couple things on that and a couple different sort of levels of abstraction, I guess.
I do believe that there are different phases of companies, and I think at the early phase of companies, it's just mayhem, like everybody do everything.
It's like Swiss Army Knife time.
And in those early days of Shopify, there's a photo that every couple years I put out on social media of me like mopping the floors.
you may have seen it but like i i may have mopped the floor once or twice but it was it's sort of a you know it's it's a metaphor for like those early days that like the floor is dirty you do everything you do everything that's kind of how it works and then i think you know as the company begins to operationalize you begin to have teams and organizations and general managers and divisions and all that i became chief operating officer around just just post ipo until around around 2021, I think, so like for six years.
I did it because that's what Toby asked me to do.
We'd never had a COO before.
And it was sort of this way of me looking after operations, specifically business operations.
It didn't come naturally to me.
But back to sort of the, you know, lifelong learner and the global maxima thing and Toby pushing me into different directions.
I was like, I'm gonna get good at this.
But it was never natural to me, never felt like I was in my flow state.
but I liked it. I liked having a big team.
I liked being responsible for a lot of things.
There was a little bit of ego in there.
Um, I felt very important and it took me a while to realize that maybe this isn't for me.
Maybe I'm not the right person to do it around the same time.
Um, I had someone that we had hired that was reporting to me who was running our payments team, Kaz.
And in almost every interaction I had, it did sort of feel like, man, Kaz really likes operations.
It feels like his ground state.
He's kind of always doing it.
And so, I saw glimmers of what people that are truly operationally minded look like.
But a couple hurdles I had, One is that I don't think I was ready to admit that this was not for me, this wasn't my thing.
I don't like to admit that I'm not good at something.
I prefer to get better at it.
I also, I think I was afraid to say the thing I want to do is like storytelling.
It felt like maybe that's not enough.
And it came with, you know, a smaller team.
it just came with less you know um less areas of responsibility um even though each of those were shallow i was like what i really want to do is this other thing it's like one air responsibility but it's really really deep is that enough for me it became obvious to me that that wasn't the right the right the right thing and actually i think it became obvious to toby that like i wasn't very happy i wasn't being my exothermic self and for someone that's always been exothermic.
That's always been high energy in those sort of, at the end of my, of my, you know, COO stage, I didn't have it.
I just, I wasn't meeting merchants the same way that I, like I love meeting merchants, my favorite thing in the world.
I just, I wasn't, it was clear I was in the wrong gear.
And it was Toby that identified it and said, there's this other thing.
We could find someone to be the chief operating officer.
And, and it was actually between myself and and um and kaz taken it was toby shannon who initially took in uh he was a great chief operating officer uh co as well toby almost gave me the permission to say this other thing that you think is maybe not enough it's like it's it's totally enough like this is super important and more importantly you can be world class at this thing and that was this like huge aha moment it that was it reminded me that okay the Venn diagram but what I love doing you know like it's like the icky guy almost perfectly described like what do you love what is the world value
what can you get paid for what like I forget all the different components of it but that's generally the icky guy immediately as I began to even understand what icky guy was like that's it for me it's like this role the storyteller the president of the company where my job is to to infect in the most positive way the world with the Shopify message, that every enterprise merchant on the planet that should be on Shopify, I'm going to convince them to do so, that every partner that should work with us, I'm going to convince them, that every investor knows exactly how great of a company this is, that every media opportunity
I have, I'm going to talk about this journey, this product, this incredible piece of software we've built, why it is so important, why it is so dramatically different than everything else that has come before us.
I don't know. It was four or five years ago.
It completely changed my energy levels.
It made me exothermic again.
It made me excited again.
It made me want to recommit year after year after year to Shopify and to Toby and to this mission that we're on.
I fell in love with the mission again.
I almost forgot about the mission for a while.
It became so operational.
And what it also So substantiate was that I didn't have to be good at all these different things.
If the one thing that I feel I can be world class, to go back to that concept, is sufficiently value add that will change the company, that will change the direction of the company, that's enough.
I am enough to do that.
and i i really think that most companies end up looking at a buffet of their leaders and looking at the slots that are available and just go like like go here go here go there and i think it takes a very thoughtful and very often a founder ceo or founder leader like toby someone like that to say okay here are the players i have here are the things that are are most important.
I'm going to skill match. So it isn't who's been there the longest or who's had that job somewhere else.
It is who is the very best person on the planet, not in the company, on the planet for this job.
And that person exists here, that's the job they should do.
It allowed me to recommit for a lot longer to Shopify, to working here, to helping to build this company.
It's made me a lot happier.
Even Lindsay would say that between 2020 and 2022, which I use those years because we're still in COVID and like we're still work from home and I wasn't around a lot of people and as a power extrovert that was challenging for me but simply changing my area's responsibility completely re -engaged me and it's it feels like this is a job that I always should have had I think Shopify I think Shopify had to get to a particular size and place for me to do this it almost feels like Shopify kind of grew into the a company that would allow me to be its storyteller.
I couldn't have done this in 2010 or 2013 or 2018.
It had to happen at the right time.
Um, and I'm super fortunate that it did and grateful that it did.
I feel like you've had more of an impact than you think, not only on Shopify, but on other companies.
I feel like the storytelling and getting out there more, like you've really changed the bar for a lot of other companies as well.
So not only Shopify, but you've sort of set other Other people didn't even know it was possible to have that sort of impact.
That means a great deal to me.
That goes back to that industry conference that we talked about as a metaphor, that, you know, I try to stand up.
I want to be able to stand up at the conference of every chief storyteller, every, you know, president of any company in the world and say, here's how I'm doing it differently.
You know, Lulu, who's on our board, who's amazing, probably one of the greatest comms geniuses on the planet, talks about this Go Direct.
She has a famous Go Direct manifesto.
that's kind of what I've always been doing this idea that even the way that I treat earnings it's not it's not an earnings call for me it's a storytelling opportunity yeah and I love seeing all these companies now you know now you see a bunch of tech companies turning the camera around and them being like here's how the earnings went like we're doing that for a while now and so I'm that's what I mean I'm it's I think it's really fun and I and because I'm now seeing other companies do that I'm like okay so like now how can I keep going from here how do i like what's the next step here how do i
requalify i've done that already i've done the like go direct them on earnings like what's the what's the 10x version of that what's the global maximum version of that that makes it really fun despite what you uh may think of yourself i think of you as a world -class storyteller thank you how how did you develop that skill what does that look like like how do we make other people world -class or better at storytelling practice really helps you know now i get to do like the knowledge purchase it's like this is a big podcast i'm not trying to you know blow smoke or flatter you but this is a big podcast
um i didn't start by doing the shane parish podcast i started by doing a lot of tiny little local podcasts and watching them over and over again you know i know there's some people that that hate watching themselves on camera maybe this sounds like narcissistic or something but i i don't mind i actually like the i like watching it because i was able to remove connector words for example i say um a lot less than most people do because I've watched myself do it a lot and I'm like I'm gonna fix this particular issue that's the first thing the second thing is I think a lot of people end up trying
to emulate other speakers I see a lot of in tech in particular there was an era where like everyone kind of sounded like Gary Vaynerchuk for a little bit I know Gary well he's a friend and Gary's incredible you know speaker and and his keynotes are are legendary legendary but that's his style and then you see other people that try to do the whole rogan thing or the shane thing or the tim ferriss thing and and i don't i never tried to be somebody else i want it to be my the version of me which is a little bit excited not always as perfectly articulate i speak very quickly i want to make sure everyone
understands me but i've sort of developed my own style of it and maybe the third thing which is probably obvious but great mentors people that that I deeply look up to when it comes to speaking.
And I think the person that has probably done the most for me in terms of watching how he speaks, how he captures the attention of a crowd with story, is Seth, Seth Godin.
I think Seth Godin is the world's greatest storyteller.
He can tell a story about Brussels sprouts.
I have a great story about Brussels sprouts that he talks about.
He can tell a story about coffee or purple cows.
And watching him and talking to him and learning from him and then it's just reps how many reps have you done i mean the reason that you know toby is such a great coder is he's written more code than probably anyone else at shopify even now i mean he doesn't write as much code now as he once did but just in terms of longevity of software development he's had more reps than other people have done we hear this about athletes all the time like the greatest athletes were the ones that got up early that went to the gym before that everyone else got to the gym like they had a double workout that's a big
part of it i think the other thing is the the content you talk about i think it is really easy to talk about stories that are your stories when i when i when i tell a story whether it's about shopify or it's about my life or my family or djing or something like that i always start with with my experience, when I was 13, when I was 18, when I traveled here, I think by starting with you and you putting yourself into the story, one, it can't be wrong because it's your story, like it happened to you.
But two, it immediately invokes, if it's true, you can speak with such conviction, with such passion.
the easiest story for me to tell is out of shopify because the story of shopify is a story of entrepreneurship and the story but my story is also of entrepreneurship my family story about entrepreneurship my friends around me you know you know almost every one of my best friends they're all entrepreneurs some of them are in the restaurant business and some of them are in fintech and some of them are lawyers but what they all have in common is they all are first first and foremost, entrepreneurs.
So the storyline that I've chosen is entrepreneurship.
And it's not an accident that the company that I've committed to for so long, for decades, is the entrepreneurship company.
Could I sell cars or could I sell biotech?
Maybe. I don't think I can tell the story in that way.
I think part of what isn't wonderful about modern day business leadership is that we are not selling widgets i think i don't know if you ever watched like some of the old um like glenn gary glenn ross movies or uh i mean frankly like always be selling oh yeah abc right closing always be always be closing uh you know copies for closers you watch some of these old school business or even um uh shoot wall street uh michael douglas amazing amazing movie.
You watch these movies and you see these business owners in these movies.
And it's a reflection, of course, of the society at the time, but they were selling widgets.
The executive could be selling tires or the executive could be selling soda water or they could be selling whatever.
It didn't matter. They were implementing the same strategies to sell one widget as they would any other.
In many ways, business is now way more personal.
And I think one of the advantages of it being more personal is that you're able, The company can attract people whose personal mission is tied into the company's mission.
I don't think that there are any...
When I look at every leader that I admire, business leader that I admire, entrepreneur that I admire, there's no accident for why they're at their company or why they built their company.
Either they experienced a problem themselves and they went to solve the problem, or they had something happen to them when they were younger in life, and that kind of changed their mindset around that that that product there is a deep connection to it there's i mean fire belly team my little tea uh uh tea company that i started dave siegel that you are you're now involved with a little bit um the reason i wanted to start this company with dave is like there's no one on the planet more passionate about tea the fact that david siegel who created david's tea was not running a tea company you know
in in in the modern world was ridiculous ridiculous.
All he cares about is tea.
Of course he should start a tea company.
He already started one because of some interpersonal issues.
He ended up leaving his company.
Of course you should start it.
If you are deeply passionate about something, I wear a James Peirce t -shirt every day, and today I'm wearing all James Peirce.
Of course James Peirce is successful, because no one thinks about GSM counts or RIB more than he does.
No one thinks about Japanese cotton versus American cotton more than he does.
No one thinks about actually these are the parachute pants.
These are his favorite pants.
I hung out with him a couple weeks ago and we both literally walked in wearing the exact same thing.
Of course his pants are amazing because he made these pants for himself.
It just turns out that thousands of other people also want to wear those pants.
The idea that the people that are running businesses are deeply connected to those businesses and the products they're creating I think is a new way to to run companies that our parents and grandparents didn't have. Go back 150 years, some of the bakers truly loved baking, but some of them just did so because they had to survive.
My grandfather had no interest in eggs whatsoever.
Anytime I tried to engage him on eggs, I got a blank stare.
He wasn't selling eggs because he cared about eggs.
He was selling eggs as a means of survival.
Forced entrepreneurship and passion -based entrepreneurship are very, very different things and the idea of us you doing your life's work and me doing my life's work that is a concept that was foreign to our parents and grandparents totally they did sort of what they had to to life's work that's a nice you know like i can i never said that to my grandfather that's a luxury young man you know wow aren't you lucky that sounds like a hobby to me you know as opposed to they were rough and tumble they were like do whatever we needed to do to survive if it was eggs or it was garments or whatever you
know we're sitting in montreal right now and about 10 kilometers north of here is the chabonel garment district um the chabonel garment district is an iconic area it's probably four streets by four streets and american apparel buffalo jeans algo industries so many companies k power suko uh more more modern companies Essence is based there now Moose Knuckles is based there it's this tiny little area that so much of the apparel industries that we know today were created out of why did that exist?
It existed because it was the lowest barrier to entry.
The needle trade or the shmata business which is the Jewish version of that the reason you see so many Jewish immigrants go into the shmata business, the needle trade is because low barrier to entry.
They couldn't go to biotech biotech had a high barrier you couldn't be you couldn't have no money and start a biotech company or start a pharmaceutical company or start a technology company but the clothing business you need a sewing machine and that's it and i it's wonderful that we have that industry that's been built here but there's a lot of people that ended up building those companies that built it because they had no choice as opposed to because they chose to be like james James chose to be in this industry.
You're the second person in the last month who's mentioned him and his shirts.
I got to check these.
You got to check them out.
They're great. I want to come back to mentors for a second.
So Seth Godin is one of your mentors.
You have a personal board of directors in different aspects of your life, whether it's relationship, business, storytelling.
Walk me through some of the categories you have and some of the people that are in those categories.
One thing that I think a lot of people, and I myself made this mistake was that you end up when you think about the idea of a mentor you end up thinking about the 360 of the mentor like I'm going to emulate everything about the mentor my experience has been that back to the spiky object thing that any any mentors that anyone watching or listening have in their lives they probably are really good at something look really good obviously they wouldn't be a mentor otherwise but they're probably lacking and other areas entirely.
And I had a mentor early on in my life that ended up convincing me to go to law school.
And I won't say his name now because I'm about to say something fairly, well, he won't mind, but I won't say his name anyway.
He's the one that ended up convincing me to move to Ottawa to go to law school.
He convinced me to go to law school to become a better entrepreneur, not become a lawyer.
Great man, I've known him since I was a child.
I was actually, years before, I was the ring bearer at his first or second, I think his first wedding or second wedding.
Which brings me to my point is that, like, this guy's an amazing career mentor and helped me more than almost anyone else.
He's not what I would call a marriage or relationship mentor.
He's on his third marriage now.
And he's happily married now, but he's on his third marriage.
If you try to cargo cult everything about one particular person, you're going to adopt all their good stuff and all their bad stuff.
Instead, it's much easier to figure out what are the couple things I want to get good at.
that? Entrepreneurship, being a great dad, being a great philanthropist, a great DJ.
I want to be a great tea entrepreneur.
And then looking at who's really good at that and ask them specifically to help you with that narrow category, as opposed to being a lot more broad.
The other thing that happens is that there's a timeliness to these mentors, meaning someone that was your mentor.
I don't know if you've ever had any business coaches or any coaches in your life.
So I think I have a great coach in my life right now.
It's probably my third or fourth coach that I've had.
One of the things I think about coaching and business coaches in particular is at some point you end up hearing a lot of the same stories or lessons or tools, meaning they have this wonderful toolbox and part of what you're paying them to be your coach is for them to open their toolbox and show you all their tools and you can adopt some of them for yourself.
But eventually you've seen the entire toolbox and that's a really good time and it's not a negative thing.
It's not a criticism.
it's a really good time to sort of move on to the next coach. The same thing goes with mentors that I don't think, with very few exception, there's probably not gonna be any one mentor that's going to be your life mentor in perpetuity because ultimately you are gonna change, they're gonna change, you're gonna want some new perspectives.
But one of the things that Lindsay and I did before we got married was we began to look at the couples we knew, most of them meaningfully older than us, and saying, who do we think has a really good relationship, a really good marriage?
How can we kind of emulate that?
And we didn't say anything to them at the time, but then after we got married, we began to nonchalantly start spending time with them, like double dates with them and kind of seeing how they interact with each other and what their style was with each other.
And we ended up developing kind of these relationship mentors.
We ended up developing parental mentors.
And it's been awesome.
awesome. It's been this incredible thing.
And some of these people that are sort of quote -unquote mentors are famous people.
Lindsay and I recently created our family foundation, and we want to have a real impact on our foundation.
I got a chance to meet David Rubenstein, who created Carlisle Group.
And I interviewed him for Big Shot, which is my little Jewish podcast archive that i have and with david and david rubin talked about the rules of how he does philanthropy so as an example he talks about like he'll only write a big check for an organization or a foundation or charity where i'm gonna get these kind of wrong but effectively it's the project wouldn't start without him or the project wouldn't end without him where he can see the efficacy of the investment in his in 10 year period and it's deeply personal to him and so he sort of puts up these kind of these these this rubric and and if it
fits those categories he's in he'll he'll give in david rubinstein's case he'll give like 10 million or 100 million dollars so i began to ask david about philanthropy well after the interview happened tell me about this and how you look at that as well um i'm not necessarily sure david rubinstein is is a mentor per se but he has helped me shape my own understanding of of philanthropy so he's sort of one that's quite famous but But we also have some friends here in Montreal who are not well -known.
No one knows them. They're very quiet philanthropists.
But the way they do it is kind of strange.
It's all about like some people talk about impact investing.
They kind of take this entrepreneurial approach to philanthropy, meaning they'll be very precise about what they donate to.
So they'll say they'll walk into a hospital, and they'll say, why is there a lineup here?
And the foundation people at the hospital will be like, well, unfortunately, there's only one machine, and this is very popular.
This is a cancer screening machine.
They'll say, great.
How much is the second machine?
They'll be like, it's $2 million.
Okay, do you have capacity for it?
Not really. What do you need?
Well, I need a radiologist for it.
Well, how much is that?
And then these people will sort of go away and they'll come back to the hospital literally a week later and they'll say, great, we figured out that you need a radiologist, you need a machine, you need a new location.
You all seem to change some power to sort of for this all to work because you don't have enough power supply here.
So we think it's four and a half million dollars.
We're gonna go and raise four and a half million dollars for this exact thing, this precise thing.
And lo and behold, six months later, you walk into this hospital The machine is there, there's no lineup anymore, and everything is solved.
So they're not doing this sort of blanket philanthropy, they're being very precise.
And so we've been able to kind of find these different people in these different categories.
And it's amazing because you get this cheat sheet for anything you want to get good at.
I started DJing again recently, and so I began talking to, there's this amazing shop here called Moog, M -O -O -G, Moog Audio.
Amazing, like legendary music shop in the world, but certainly here in Montreal.
And so I started going to the shop more often, hanging out there and like listening to the DJs.
I ended up meeting one of these guys, Alex, who runs a shop and asking him like, so how do you think about like when you beat mix, what do you do?
Is it eight beat counts or using new technology?
How do you think about fading?
There's something called stems in DJing.
So you take a song, there are three stems. There's basically the drum bass, like the beat.
There's the vocals and there's the instrumentals.
And I was like, when I was DJing, we couldn't necessarily identify or isolate stems. I was like, but you seem to be doing that a lot when you're DJing, and I listen to your SoundCloud stuff, and he's like, well, here's how we do it.
You can do this in every category of your life, and it doesn't have to be these famous people.
It can be a random person you end up meeting at the DJ shop.
And it's been amazing for me and Lindsay.
It's been amazing for my own life.
life but i will say that uh a lot of a lot of people try to emulate something like that and there's this cringe factor involved that i find that most people can't get over and the cringe factor is often i have to send a lot of text messages and a lot of emails and a lot of even now that that you know a lot some people know me i still like i have zero cringe in my life i don't worry about cringe at all i never feel that way at all so if there's someone that I really want to get, you know, intro to and start working with and start getting mentorship from, I will like, I will go full on and I will never
be disrespectful. But I have no issue with rejection whatsoever.
And I think that's the largest blocker of why more people don't create these personal boards of directors.
Let's go deeper on that for a second.
I think you hit on a really key point, which is, I kind of think of this as like, most people don't want to look like an idiot the short term to look like a genius in the long term and because they're unwilling to do something where somebody might say no or uh it might make them look you know you want to start skateboarding well you you've got to get on a skateboard to actually start skateboarding but you're going to look like a fool for the first few months or maybe weeks or years or whatever but you're unwilling to do that and so you never get better at these things i have very high cringe pain tolerance
whatever you want to call it i have no issue with that whatsoever i think that there is is this gets easier also with age, I find.
The older I get, the less I really care about that stuff.
But yeah, I think most people are not willing to look stupid for a period of time.
I think the other thing is that, I think about this all from the concept of entrepreneurship.
In my office here in Montreal, the Shopify office, I have the original screen print that Ben Francis used to create Gymshark.
It was a gift. It's a super meaningful gift that he gave me.
I love it. I have it hung up in my office.
part of the reason why it's up there is because I think that it's an amazing gift and Jim shark is this homegrown success story on Shopify it exemplifies everything we stand for it's incredible but the other reason I have it up there is because what most people don't know is that that was not Ben Francis's first company that Ben Francis actually had a bunch of failed companies before he landed on Jim shark and I think about this idea of this cost of failure not just from entrepreneurship perspective but in general you have to basically figure out with any anything anything you're doing what is the cost
of failure here the cost of failure is really high you really have to think about it it's you have to sort of do a little bit of like the math of is the cost of is is the benefit of success worth the cost of failure and sometimes it's just not but i mean for 39 a month you can build a store it's not a pitch for shoplifting but you can build a store if it works blow it up if it doesn't work try something else there are still too many people that are apprehensive that that that don't want to put themselves out there because of this fear of failure and i've long believed that you know getting really
really comfortable with being uncomfortable is magic it's totally magic and i wasn't always good at that i don't think you can be born with that i think you can learn that i think you can learn resilience but i don't i don't know anyone i admire who's had success success who has not gone through that period of making kind of looking kind of dumb and if you're watched the first interview you've ever done me oh god yeah look at that I wouldn't listen to the first I think like 20 or 30 of them I wanted to get a catalog and then I wanted to listen to them sure and then I went for like a really long
run and I started listening to them and I was like oh my god and it's like I should have asked this follow -up why did I phrase it that way and like you i'm incredibly hard on myself came back went through every transcript and like i was like i want to get better at this for everybody else but yeah there's no secrets to why you've been so successful in my in my view i've known you now for a number of years you you simply out care other people and i think that out caring thing supersedes IQ, EQ, raw talent.
Double click on that for a second.
I think that I will take someone, it's the reason why I like entrepreneurs so much, that I think entrepreneurs, the right entrepreneurs, the best entrepreneurs, they just simply out -care other people.
They are willing to, if you put two people in a room, one person has 50 % capacity, another person 100 % capacity, but that 100 capacity person is just not caring as much as 50 i think i can help that 50 person get more skill and not sure i can change their level of ambition i think you can change ambition but i think like sheer innate deep -rooted ambition uh which call it care whatever whatever nomenclature you want to use i think that is a superpower and it's also the reason why when i I meet someone they say what do you think I should do with my life I often ask them what do you do for fun because often
the what you do for fun question ends up turning into I really want to be a fashion designer and I'm like you should go be a fashion designer even if you've ever done it you may not have the raw skills you will learn those skills but you seem to really care about this thing you're probably gonna be good at it is there a difference between who cares the most and who wants it more or the like how do you see that new look at them the same in my view um usually high care comes from high intent or high uh an elevated level of desire to succeed i'm trying to teach my kids that right now i i spent a lot
of you know this is kind of weird but i kind of wish i had kids pre -ipo rather than post -ipo why i think whatever success that I've had and success of things I've been involved with they are more meaningful to me because obviously I know where I come from I know how hard it was but I also see how Lindsay how my wife sees my relationship with things I've done in particular with Shopify lindsay has great a wonderful emotional connection it's shopify for lindsay even my wife is not just a company she remembers you know those early days she remembers those like being on top of tucker's marketplace
in the byward market uh the office stunk like the buffet restaurant and and struggling this is pre -ip pre -series a even and and i i like that i love that she knows that she knows how meaningful is because she's seen the entire journey um my my kids were born in the last eight years or so they kind of only know our life being pretty good our lives changed post IPO I don't think that's a secret financially my life changed and and I don't take it for granted but I kind of wish they knew what Lindsay and my first apartment looked like to not in Ottawa Canada and how gross it was it wasn't gross because it
was dirty it just wasn't nice because we couldn't afford anything else and so what i often what lindsey often tells me is just like yeah the kids didn't see that but but tell them those stories and so i do i tell those kids i tell my daughters the stories of those early days and how scary it was and we didn't know if it was going to succeed or not and i want them to see that i think i don't want them to think any of this came simply because it was fate or just kind of happened or you know uh i mean luck plays plays a role here but this was sheer grit and willpower and it still is um part of the reason why
i like starting these small projects like big shot or fire belly is i i want the kids to see that i want the kids to see this thing that you know that first episode of big shot we did was it was charles bronfman it didn't do very well i wasn't very good at it i wasn't a good interviewer i didn't know what questions to ask dave and i were kind of awkward fumbling along together and bailey my oldest has sort of memorized most of that episode and now she watches that she they love watching big shot they also watch the most recent episode bobby kodik who built activision blizzard we put that out last
week and uh and i love watching her see the difference in style and and the articulation because i want her to know that like all the things she wants in her life life she can have but it won't be easy no one's gonna give it to her and it's gonna kind of suck at the beginning go a little bit deeper on that because you know what came to mind when you were saying that is this conversation i have with chris bosh and the thing about that entire interview that sticks out with me even to this day is he told me this story about how growing up they had had nothing.
And he loved to play the private school kids.
Yep. Beat them. Because they're so entitled.
He's like, they had air conditioning.
They don't know what it's like to work out in a gym when it's 110 degrees.
They have no idea. And I love to go in there and I love to win.
And then at the end, he sort of twisted this around.
He's like, now my kids are those private school kids.
It's really hard. I mean, I don't want to create artificial Artificial scarcity or artificial, you know, I don't want to create things that don't exist for my kids and pretend like our life is different than it is.
This is where Lindsay is really great.
Lindsay is a psychotherapist, so she thinks a lot more about this than I do.
But she'll often remind me that like it's not what you say, it's what you do, it's what they see.
And so, you know, for example, we're fortunate to have some help at the house.
But like Bailey makes her bed every day.
Bailey puts her dishes away.
Now that's very different than, you know, what Chris Bosch said about like, you know, how he grew up.
But there's a certain level of like respect that we show the people that have helped us.
There's a certain level of care that we show the people that are around us.
I'm not sure that I can invent some sort of, some version of poverty for my children.
I think that would, part of why I work harder so my kids can have, you know, less of that multi -generational trauma that i've felt yeah but i want them to be grateful and hard -working and convict and have conviction i want them to work on projects together i want them to fall on their face when when they haven't done the right thing and i want i want to celebrate them when they work really really hard um the type of school my my daughter's go to now was the type of school that my mom said i could she couldn't afford to send me to and that that's one of the reasons why i i worry about am i doing
all the right things am i a great great parent am i a great father i don't know that i am i i like you know sundays here at shopify we have something called builder sundays so we open up the offices it's done in montreal and toronto so anyone in the city uh that's an entrepreneur can come in and work from here and i come in almost every sunday and i often will bring will bring the kids usually i'll bring Bailey with me and I'll just walk around and I'll talk to people and ask them how they can be helpful and stuff and I see Bailey watching me do this and she's like well like what's that person doing
I was like well that person's building a Shopify app and she's like well what did you ask and I was like well he asked you know once the app is built how does he get people to use the app and she said well what'd you say and I said well you know like make sure the app adds a lot of value and then the first five people that installed it I called them and asked them how you can make it better and if you've made it better and they're happy ask them to write a to review and and so i'm beginning to think that parenting is not that complicated that we complicate it we try all these devices and and and these
techniques and these programs and all these sort of things but ultimately they're just watching us and and and they're going to they're going to copy and they're going to emulate the behavior they see from us and if we're respectful they're going to be respectful and we're hard working they're going to be hard working I think part of that back to the family motto of how you do anything is how you do everything I don't actually care what my kids end up doing professionally whether they're entrepreneurs or they're musicians or they're you know their their trait they have a trade that they work on I
just want them to have intentionality I don't want them to do something just because well this is kind of where life brought me I hate that the opposite of how you do anything is how you do everything is this other term that i hate i hate when anyone says which is it is what it is i don't believe that to be true i hate that expression is what it is what does it even mean it is what it is it means that like somehow you were just this thing happened you're accepting it you can change your own fate you can change your own life you can change everything about everything around you i want my kids to
see that that is not the way to live that living with great intentionality is important and anyway jury's still out on that we'll see what how how they turn out but so far they're pretty good kids i think you're you're really hard on yourself what does high agency mean to you i don't think you have to have the glory without the the high agency meaning i like people that take deep responsibility for things this idea you know back to expressions that i hate well that's not my job that is an expression i loathe especially like in a setting of a company.
I just, I don't believe that.
I don't think that's, and frankly, at any stage of company.
I mean, there's sometimes where like, that literally is someone else's job, I get that.
But high agency is someone that sees a problem and says, I'm gonna fix it, and then fixes it themselves.
That they take, they put themselves into the role of single threaded owner, responsible person.
I take high agency in everything that I have. It's actually a great term.
I actually don't think about that term that often.
I love that term. I think the people I admire most all have high agency.
They see something, they take responsibility for it, which means that if it goes well, it's their win.
If it doesn't go well, it's their loss.
But they have the levers in their hand.
They're able to maneuver those levers however they best see fit, it and are willing to accept the consequences of those results.
Funny anecdote tying together parenting and it's not my job, which triggered this memory.
I mean, I once asked my kids, I think there were seven, eight at the time.
I was like, okay, go clean the bathrooms in the house.
And they knew how to do it.
So asking them seemed appropriate.
And my eight -year -old looked at me and he's like, uh, that's not my job.
Tess, who was at our house, you know, the lady who cleaned our house every couple of weeks, he's like, that's Tess's job.
And I remember just sitting there for like a brief second and I was like, what do I do in this situation?
So I like picked up my phone.
I called Tess and I said, Tess, you don't have to come in tomorrow.
Don't worry about it.
You're going to get paid.
And the kids have volunteered to do all of your, all of the stuff that you normally do for us amazing and so i made this list and it was like long and i was like you can't do any ipad no movies no anything until this list is guess what now it is your job and not once since that day have they ever pushed back when i asked them to do anything around the house or help out they're like no problem yeah of course i think it's look and it's not that your your son was saying something wrong no he actually thought it was 100 which is why again in like it's this crazy paradox like we we work so hard to
give our kids these great these great lives and make their lives better but ultimately we don't want to deprive them from the things that actually will give them their own satisfaction later on i look uh you know without naming names i have uh two two people that are close to me that are both third generation kind of big families meaning you know each of their parents i think were billionaires okay very wealthy people Um, and in both cases, so I know the third gen in both cases, one of them is one of the hardest working people I know.
The other one is not at all like the opposite, super laid back.
And they're both very happy people.
They're both wonderful people.
But it's fascinating to me how both of them are third gen yet completely different.
And it's all about the values they set.
One really wants to prove that he was able to, you know, he benefited from the past two generations, but he's going to make his own mark in the world.
Making his own mark is deeply important to him because he wants to have personal meaning, personal accomplishment.
The other one is like, look, I basically won the lottery.
So I'm going to enjoy life more than anybody else because I don't even know how this happened, but I'm going to enjoy it.
Neither of them are wrong or right, but I'm fascinated by how parenting translate into ambition and translate into meaning and conviction.
I think a lot about that.
I don't know. I definitely, I'm a little ahead of you with the kids' ages, but I definitely do not have any answers to that.
One of the only pieces of advice Charlie Munger gave me about parenting over dinner once was the parents that try to artificially impose a different lifestyle on their kids than they are living.
And he gave me an extreme example of a guy getting like chauffeured to work with a driver and then telling his kids to get a job.
A very Charlie Munger version of this.
of mcdonald's right and he said that that does nothing but cause resentment yeah because then again now you're creating something artificial it's not it's not it's not real yeah i want them you know i i want them to i want it to be real i see it actually i set up my my new dj booth um in my house and every time i dj i can almost count it like within 30 seconds both kids will come up and say i want to dj too amazing i could have bought them dj equipment for themselves ourselves.
That's sort of a, I don't know, like a rich dad thing to do.
Like I'm DJing, I got you DJ equipment.
No. Instead, they see how much fun I'm having DJing and I love DJing.
I put it on Instagram stories every Sunday, a couple different mixes that I do.
But they watch how much fun I have and then they want to do it.
And now they're asking for their own DJ equipment.
Of course, my answer is, well, you should save your money.
Like you can do chores and your birthday money and all that.
Eventually you can save your money and I will go with you to the store all by we can buy DJ equipment for you but I never would have been able to um to inspire them to think about this thing called DJing and music if I was just throwing it at them rather by showing them how much I enjoy it they seem to gravitate to it way more I love that yeah I want to come back to something we talked about earlier in terms of trying to be great and intentional at everything you do which means you have to pick and choose what you do one of the things that you've talked about in the past we've never talked about but you've
talked about in the past is sort of your calendar management system for prioritization and I often had this theory before I heard your story and I people would when I ran a team for the government people would tell me their priorities and be like show me your calendar don't don't tell me your priorities show me your calendar um talk to me about how you use that to set priorities and then audit that you're spending time on the right things well the audit's easy one because i um i'm fairly compulsive about auditing my calendar once a quarter um and i do that with my team here at shopify i also do
with lindsey with my wife so like lindsey is also deeply involved in sort of in in diarizing my priorities i calendar everything i calendar this interview we're doing together i calendar what i'm gonna do between now and our dinner tonight i calendar our dinner tonight um i find that putting everything into my calendar even though it sounds ridiculous to have like walk with wife or um meditation i want to meditate more i i i have have anxiety.
I'd manage it really well.
But part of how I manage it is through meditation.
You want to see my priorities, show my calendar.
Every morning, there's a calendar.
I do eight minutes a morning.
There's a calendar reminder about meditation.
It's in the calendar.
It's permanent. It's always in there.
It's been there for years.
So I think most people use their calendar professionally, but they don't want to use it personally.
It almost feels, I don't know, know it it feels icky to them or it feels too overly prescriptive and and formal it's not me everything is in there it's really really important years ago someone sent me the paul graham makers versus managers time which effectively is that you know the way that at least paul ground describes it is that he's got these blocks called manager's time like they're 30 minute blocks and he's makers times which are a lot longer for deeper thinking times sometimes so I do that quite a bit and I try to kind of bundle my my meeting days on certain days usually Monday Wednesday
Fridays and then more of my like my maker days Tuesdays and Thursdays where I can have long form blocks of time to do thinking to do writing if I'm writing a speech or I'm now preparing for Shopify summit which will bring a whole team together I have to write my keynote I'm just I'm intentional about that stuff I don't think there's any other way to do it what I also find is that I color code everything and so what I can do by color coding everything thing is that i can see like um last night lindsay and i had dinner with another couple it was really great but that was color -coded in purple um
sort of social dinners and when i'm looking on a sunday night reviewing my week and i see a lot of those social dinners i'm like i think this week is a little too heavy and so now i can sort of adjust okay like i'm okay to have one social dinner during the week i can't have two or three of those i'll just like like i need to i need to preserve my own energies as well the color coding thing is really helpful because you can see visually that like where am i where's my time going jesse itzler i don't even know jesse he's the founder of marquee jet um he's married to sarah blakeley who created smanks
but i i did um an endurance race that he created called 29 29 it's called everesting effectively you there's like 12 of them but you you climb these mountains and you emulate climbing ever mount everest which is 29 9 029 feet and i did the everesting race last september i'm doing again this year uh in and so I got a chance to meet Jesse and spend some time with him and also kind of I now follow him on on social media and he's got this thing called the big -ass calendar it's literally a big ass calendar and part of the reason why it's actually sells it on Shopify it's pretty cool but the reason why he
does it is because it's in his office on the wall and he can see literally 365 days everything visually and what he starts doing which which I really love and I've tried this a little bit although I don't have it on printed out is he'll start the year by saying okay, what are the most important things?
So we'll put in like school graduations or birthdays or earnings calls or whatever is important to him.
And then he'll add to, okay, trips, add the trips in.
And once you actually have everything visually in front of you, now you're able to sort of take a stab back and say like, okay, now you see my calendar, do you see my priorities?
If I want to get better at like running, where's the running stuff in there?
If it's sporadic, it's obviously not a priority.
And there is this, you know, I think aligned to yourself is like it's kind of insane that's really where stress comes from i find i think that stressing stress like comes from like when like fundamentally your mind and like your body like are just not aligned very well and when you look at something you keep saying i'm really gonna get into tennis in 2026 and you're looking at your calendar and there's like not much tennis on it you're like obviously that's bullshit like i'm lying to myself it's not that important and i i think the calendar especially like the great part about a digital calendar
is you have it always on you it's always synced everywhere your iPad your desktop your laptop your phone you have it everywhere available to you can add people to it as well it just makes everything so much easier now now for the downside it can also be a burden I'm taking the kids um it's a long weekend here and I'm taking the kids uh and Lindsay and I and the kids are going to New York this weekend and we want to go see Broadway shows and like we're huge foodies wanting some great restaurants uh Taylor Swift's new restaurant favorite restaurant is Winkled Corner Store I want to go there.
And, and my wife and I like, I want to do a spin class and all that.
So if you were to look at my New York calendar coming up for this weekend, you would look at me like, dude, like you're missing out on life.
There's no room for serendipity.
There's no room for you just getting lost in Central Park.
There's no room for you just turning down the wrong street in Soho and finding a really cool boutique at a great sneaker or shop.
There's no room for, you know, I don't know, your kids, like you taking a nap randomly.
And that's true. That's not me.
I'm not the Sobratic guy.
I'm not the Serendipity guy.
I know who I am. I'm the type of person that wants to see my calendar for the next four days and be like, it's all on there because that's what gives me joy.
And for other people, they would find it to be completely anxiety inducing, but that's not who I am.
So I think being honest about the types Types of things that like you're into and how you want to live your life and then reflecting it and manifesting it in a way that like actually allows you to create these guardrails is super, super helpful.
I appreciate that as a you do that's wonder yeah I don't calendar sort of like go for a coffee but you know every morning 9 to 12 is usually blocked off there's no meetings I tend to schedule things around energy so like things I don't appreciate or like doing as much tend to go in the afternoon when I'm lower energy than in the morning I'm glad we're recording this in the afternoon new.
That's what I meant.
I mean, like lawyers or accountants or like reviewing things, you know, those aren't high energy tasks for me.
And, but I've never thought about sort of like starting the year and putting in the most important dates first. Uh, I don't really use color coding to the extent that I probably should.
And this helps in the visual side of it.
Like why is there so much green this week?
You're like, what's green?
Oh yeah. Green is like, whatever, you know, uh, uh, extracurricular like there's too much green like you know i i something's wrong here it just allows you to just have the like holy shit moment something is off here there's no balance here for me my calendar needs to look like a rainbow if it looks like a rainbow i know that i have this balance like that i'm i myself i'm looking for i love that i want to come to ai and how it's impacting the workforce that you guys have how it's impacting other things but let's start with With Toby put out a memo, and we've talked about this sort of like texting.
And so the memo came out and he put it out there.
He said, basically, if you're not AI by default, you're in a lot of trouble.
Talk to me about that.
He actually said something slightly different, which he said that if you were not using AI reflexively, which is a very interesting term to use, right?
Right. By default is one thing.
Reflexively is different, meaning in your jobs, everyone that's listening and watching, when you have a problem that you're working on, a challenge, a project, are you reflexively thinking about what tool exists right now that I can pull down to help me do my job better?
And that's I mean, that memo obviously got leaked.
It was an internal memo that he sent to the whole team.
And he's done this before.
I mean, you know, historically, I guess, quasi famously, he did a memo about Shopify mobile, that like, we were still living kind of in like the desktop world.
And it was clear that ecommerce in particular was moving more to a mobile device, that more traffic was coming in.
But Shopify was still building kind of in this like web browser based, you know, desktop world.
old and so he wrote this you wrote a memo to the company and eventually it also got leaked so maybe the story here is that a lot of things when you're a big company you're getting leaked but it was important memo because it was a reminder to the company that like look this isn't just some random new tool this is a new type of programming language this is a fundamental paradigm shift in the way we all work and whether you are a storyteller where before i'm preparing for or something uh and i'm like hey i just i want to check a couple things like here are the stats that i have i can throw it into
i like to use perplexity or um i actually really love claude for projects on personal abuse claude but for claude what i do is i have like uh i have a project for like health and wellness so every blood test i have i upload there actually toby kind of showed me how to like how to create these projects in a really interesting way that has these great triggers and so somebody comes in over email for my doctor blood test i put it in there um or i'll have one around speaking so i've uploaded every one of my transcripts of speaking and so i can write something and i can put it into claude and i can say
from a tone perspective does it sound like me like what parts of this doesn't doesn't you know doesn't feel like my other talks or have i told the story before it's this amazing tool so i think what what he does so So well as like he is the he's the Overton window shifter and he like he kicks that window hard. And so he just wants to make sure that a Shopify, if you work here, you are within the like the origin window of AI like being reflexive is deeply met in the culture.
Something else happened in February of this year.
I had our we did our Q4 earnings call.
So Jeff and I are CFO were on the earnings call.
And then there were a bunch of reports.
The analyst reports come on after the earnings call and stuff.
I think we have like 46 or 47 analysts covering Shopify.
And a bunch of the reports mentioned on the – actually criticized me for saying, and also we were surprised that Harley did not talk more about AI.
And I was like, this is weird. Like two or three reports came out like that.
I was like, this is strange.
So I listened to call again.
And I listened to a lot of other calls too.
too. What I realized was, I get it.
All these other companies that reported around the same time as we did, they basically spent 50 % of the call talking about AI, our AI investments, what AI is going to do for our customers.
It was like, if you word clouded the earnings call scripts, by far, AI would have been the largest cloud.
And it wasn't for us.
I mentioned, I talked about shop like magic and all that and it it dawned on me that the reason that we were i was criticized we were criticized for this was that like i think a lot of companies are very hand wavy about ai like ai is going to change our company and and it's going to like you know uh it's like that poster of like an eagle with leadership underneath and people like what's our culture it's that poster no that's not like that's a stupid poster culture is like what people do, how people feel, what happens when no one's watching, what does the team do?
That's real culture.
Putting a sign up is completely superficial nonsense.
Well, a lot of companies are sort of talking to the AI right now in a similar sort of superficial nonsense kind of way.
Ultimately, if you think about the mission of Shopify, it's we want to create more entrepreneurs.
We want to make entrepreneurship more accessible.
We want more people to use it to whatever their of versus successes.
Maybe it's to be the youngest billionaire in the UK like Ben Francis and Jim Shark, or maybe it's just to afford hockey equipment.
But we think that entrepreneurship allows anyone to do that.
It's the great equalizer.
The unfair advantage that, like unfair, like big unfair advantage that large companies have over small companies is headcount, that they have a lot of people.
And so they have a lot of people doing a lot lot of different jobs as easy as we've made entrepreneurship there's still that there's still a resource constraint if you are a one man or one woman or a one person operation you don't have a lot of different teams what we think is so fundamentally game -changing and and mind -blowing about ai is that we are actually one of the companies i think that's best position to utilize it to create this like step function advantage for the people that you shop especially the small businesses this idea that we don't have an ai product but rather ai is built in all
across shopify i think is absolutely incredible um on big shot i interviewed mickey drexler mickey drexler ran the gap for 20 years you know mickey yeah have you had him on the show yeah you have it okay amazing guy as you know he can tell stories forever uh so mickey told me that when he was at the gap the gap had these like massive merchandising teams and product photography teams and as he was telling me this the first thing i thought about was oh my god if you compare mickey druck's for running the gap in 1997 1998 during billions of dollars a one person operation at their mom's kitchen table
right now on shopify who needs to write a product description who needs to do product photography i suspect that today they can have a higher converting a higher a highly optimized or higher optimized product description and a better product photography taken than mickey's 300 person team that to me is like the ultimate that that's what like that's why ai matters to shopify it's not about the hand wavy all this stuff and earnings call word wordboard cloud bubble stuff it's about can we actually even further bend like the learning curve and the barren energy into entrepreneurship nothing quite
does this like ai does now it doesn't mean you can effectively set it like set it and forget it but it just means that it's going to be a huge mass advantage and i think the way that we're doing it is not simply by having one ai product but rather literally embedding it across all of shopify i think that's going to be from a trajectory perspective you will see a pre and a post trajectory of business growth particularly small business growth because of ai relative to almost every other technology that came out i mean it is it is so substantially valuable for small teams because it puts so much
of their it gives them so many more resources in a way that they would never have unless they had bigger teams. And ultimately, if you think about like, as a consumer, you are buying a t shirt, you want to buy the very, very best t shirt, you don't really care if the t shirt company has 300 people or three people, you care about the t shirt itself.
But unfortunately, that 300 person company historically was able to get in front of more customers, because they had merchandising teams, and marketing teams and product photography teams, and all types of other teams. But now that three person team can actually do as much as 300 person.
In fact, maybe they can do it better.
And I think that is going to be remarkable.
So I think from a Shopify perspective, I think our merchants will get a lot better and grow a lot faster because of it.
But I think the companies that are able to adopt and this is really like the crux of the like everyone was surprised by that memo that Toby sent up.
We were not like most people at Shopify were not surprised by that.
It was the most Toby memo.
It was like, I want to be clear.
Everyone's talking about AI, but what does it really mean?
It means that if you work at Shopify, the expectation is that you use it reflexively.
The expectation is before you go and try to hire another person for your team, you ask yourself and you test whether or not some sort of AI tool can actually do it better for you.
And if it can, that's what you should be doing.
I mean, the teams and the companies that embrace that are going to be far more successful than ones that adopt it with some, you know, mediocre energy.
I was talking to my kids the other day and I was like, you have a thousand employees at your fingertips.
Yes. And they were like, what do you mean?
I was like, all these GPUs, they work for you.
Yes. They do exactly what you asked them to do and they do it better.
For 20 bucks. In a lot of ways than most humans do at this point.
100%. And especially with different models coming out and evolving.
That's right. It's fascinating to me.
what do you think the impact will be on Shopify in five years like internally not for your merchants but like do you need 10 ,000 employees do you need like how does this change the the dynamic I mean in terms of size of company we I think the size of our company right now in the shape of our company right now is is is it's really good like we are very happy with the size it means we can do more with with with the same amount of people it means we can go into new areas it means we can build faster I think not just for Shopify but I think the companies that that are going to be, that are going to
embrace it, not utilize it, but truly embrace it and make it part of their daily flow.
I mean, look, we talked about schedules and prioritization just before.
Once a quarter, when I have time, I go and look through my calendar.
I can now create a very simple, like, agentic tool that basically looks at my calendar every week and on Sunday it says, dude, you got too many social things or dude, you got too many one -on -one meetings or like whatever it is.
I can be, all the things that I want to do in my life, I think can be made better for that one of my mentors is a guy named aldo ben sedun aldo's 85 years old he was a moroccan immigrant to canada he built aldo shoes um he's you know he's built a multi -billion dollar company and um aldo and i were giving a talk together um at uh he just gave a bunch of money to mcgill to create the the ben sedun school of retail uh faculty of retail at mcgill which is i'm involved the really really cool faculty and um we're on stage and i said to aldo i'm sort of like aldo's He's kind of an old school guy.
I said, Aldo, what do you think of AI?
And I was kind of like, it was a bit of a joke.
I was kind of poking fun of like the young guy, like the young retail guy poking the old retail guy.
And Aldo, without skimming a beat, says, it's like having a best friend in your pocket.
This is an 85 -year -old man.
He's seen, you know, he's seen everything.
He's seen all new technology for the last, you know, eight and a half decades.
but even the fact that he can appreciate how much leverage you get with this new technology i think i think is amazing so i think it'll make us move faster i think it'll allow us to build stuff with smaller teams i think it'll allow our merchants to make better decisions i i think you're going to see you know i'm i'm blown away even pre kind of some of these large language models and AI tools coming out in the last four or five years.
I've found it to be remarkable that these companies that started in 2014 have become billion -dollar companies in the last 10 or 11 years.
Typically, business does not happen like that.
It took decades to become hegemonic, to become the leader in your category, and now you have companies like, I don't know what to call it, Viore, Alo Yoga.
These companies didn't exist a decade ago, and now they're absolutely absolutely unequivocal category leaders.
It's wild. It took them like less than 10 years.
FIGS completely disrupted Trina and Heather, completely disrupted the hospital scrub industry.
You walk in any hospital in North America, maybe in the world, and you look around and see like what most doctors are wearing or nurses are wearing.
It's FIGS. That didn't exist a decade ago and now they're publicly traded multi -billion dollar company.
So I've already been, been it's been astonishing for me to watch from this perspective shop play basically runs about 12 of all u .s e -commerce so if you were to think about like just in terms of size wise like we're like the second largest checkout on the internet in the u .s at least but in other countries maybe more so than that the trajectory of business growth has been so remarkable so fast 10 years you go from an idea to a multi -billion dollar publicly traded company now you add on this like like, layer of AI, which means you can make better decisions faster, you can make smaller teams way
more productive, I think you're going to have another step function.
Like, I think that you will have this incredible hockey stick curve of businesses that grow from zero to 100 million dollars in GMB inside of three years instead of like 10 years.
And I mean, I pray at the altar of entrepreneurship.
And there's been a couple things over the last, you know, 50 years that has made it much better.
Obviously, the internet has made it much better.
Obviously, things like Shopify has made it much better.
But I think this new era where you have all these things stacked with AI, it is the golden age of entrepreneurship and I'm here for it.
I think a lot of people our age are in more trouble than they realize if they're not using it.
And I say this because I had dinner with a few friends the other night and the subject came up and I was like, how is is everybody using it like I'm always interested in how other people like you were talking about sort of like putting your blood test results in a project in quote and I'm like I'm trying to learn from other people and almost all of them were like oh it hallucinates so I like don't use it very much and I'm just like wow like that's and then they're like what are you doing with it and I go on for like 10 minutes right like I'm I'm coding I haven't done that in like 10 years I'm
doing all these things with it and they're just like wow I mean you can literally generate a python script right now in a matter of 30 seconds with open ai right now you can generate you can build an app in a matter of like i mean back to what you just said um that reaction of i tried it once it hallucinated i think one of the things that you have to have if you're going to be successful in this new era of business and and actually in any in any era with all this in technology is you have to be a techno -optimist. You have to believe that things are getting so good at such a quick pace that it
doesn't matter that it hallucinated, that the next time you use it, it probably won't hallucinate.
And I think if you get stuck in this trap of it hallucinated once, therefore I now have scar tissue, I'm not going to use it, you're going to fall behind.
It's one of the reasons why one of my mentors has, I think one of the reasons he spends time with me is he loves hanging out with people younger than him, much younger than him.
I'm i'm 40 30 years younger than him uh and he used to run one of the largest companies in canada he's an amazing man and i always noticed that that like he's always hanging out with younger people and i had someone i said you seem to like you know uh you seem to like hanging out with young people is it because you guys teach me stuff he's like my friends don't teach me as much he's my friends are in their 60s and 70s we talk about golf we talk about whiskey or wine whatever but when i hang out with you harley you taught me about like the new dj equipment and how like Like, it's all powered by AI.
And you tell me about this new stuff.
And then he goes one step further.
He's like, and he also has friends that are in their 20s.
And they tell me about all types of new technology.
And I think there is this, there's something, maybe this is one of the great parts, but like one of the advantages of having kids is you see how they're interacting.
You see what they're doing.
You know, I sent a note over to David, who's the CEO of Roblox.
And I was just explaining to them that the way my kids use Roblox is actually, yes, they're playing a game, but rather the game is almost passively in the background they're having a conversation and rather than looking at each other they're looking at this game together kind of playing but the actual in at least for my kids who are you know who's Bailey's eight years old Roblox for her is simply a central chat room yep it is not actually about the game itself and rather than staring at the person's face on screen as being the main focal point if you know the face is kind of in the bottom right
corner the main focal point is in some random game and and rather you know it's maybe and david of course knows this but i was like what you've created is like a social network and like you call it a you know game ecosystem and all that but watching how people are using this technology is is remarkable and uh it's i think if you are a techno optimist and you're paying attention all these things that are happening it is tough not Not to be incredibly optimistic about like where we are and the world we're living in right now.
It's amazing. I could go on for another couple hours.
I think this is probably a good moment to sort of wrap this up.
We always end with the same question, which is what is success for you?
I think about this term, I mentioned a few times, life's work.
I think about this term, Joie de vivre, which is joy of life, which is a beautiful French term that is, you know, for me, like Montreal is the joie de vivre capital.
um i want more of those things in my life i want to do more of my life's work i want to have more joie de vivre in my life and i don't want to i don't want to sacrifice either of those things um i think that's what success looks like the the the harmonization of joie de vivre and life's work would be um that would make me successful i think that's a beautiful answer and we'll have to do Do part two because I got a million more questions.
Thank you, Shane. I appreciate it.
Appreciate it. Thanks for listening and learning with us.
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