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Hello, everybody. And welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s.
And what they mean for our psychology.
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is, as always, so great to have you here.
About a quarter of us are struggling with our mental health in some way.
Whether it's a very present thing in our day-to-day life, or just kind of voice there sitting silently in the background, that means that basically if you were to select four people in your office at your workplace on your train this morning in a classroom, you know, if you were to select four people from a random friendship group or from a family, one of them would have a story
about the way their mental health is a present figure in their life or something that they've dealt with.
It's kind of a stoneling number when you think about it, 25% of people, but it's also very much true.
Here's the thing though, for that one in four, each of those people would have about, you know, the average is five to 10 close friends.
About 50% of them would have a partner.
Most of us have some family that we would be close to.
And so, though, it's one quarter of us who may be struggling with our mental health.
And, you know, in what feels like a very solitary experience, there are millions, if not billions more, who see someone they love, hurting, struggling, persevering, and they want to help, but sometimes just don't know how to, because who has ever taught them.
When was that really ever included in a school curriculum?
When was that a priority to teach us as children or as teenagers or ever, how to help someone we love when they're struggling with their mental health?
So, today, my lovely lesson is that is exactly what we're talking about, whether it is someone that we're dating, someone that we're in a relationship with, a friend, a family member.
How do we help them with their own private struggles and battles that we just don't really know much about, that we don't have a guidebook to, even when we try our hardest to do our best.
It can really be quite scary being this situation.
I want to just say that first, like upfront, first and foremost, because every fiber of you wants to fix what's going on.
You see they're just stressed, you want to get rid of it.
You want to find some way through, but we just don't know how, and sometimes it's just not something that we're capable of, but we still want to be there for them, and we still want to love them, and we probably still want the relationship to thrive and to survive, despite what's going on.
So, today, I want to give you seven of my biggest tips that I've learned from the people who have honestly showed up for me, what I needed during times when my mental health wasn't great.
What I wish people had known, but also what they did really, really well, and also things that I've learned from the times when I've been the support system for someone else who is struggling.
I feel like a lot of this comes down to personal experience, but also some of the psychology, some of the more therapeutic recommendations.
We're going to discuss the best ways to educate yourself, to listen, to keep yourself well, how to communicate, how to advocate for your loved one.
This is just such an important topic for me, just because of the honestly, a greatest lack of resources that we typically have.
But also because I think I would have benefited from this information at times, both in terms of how I would have wanted to communicate my needs to people, but also kind of wanting to know how to help someone that I love.
So, I'm hoping that you can come back to this, this can kind of be a reference point for you, when you're waiting through some tricky waters, trying to figure out the best way to go about things.
We're going to keep this intro short and sweet.
I realized that I've been kind of rambling for a while, and just really get into what is useful here.
Some practical advice, some useful reminders, some things that you may not know or you haven't thought about when it comes to loving, supporting, caring about someone who is going through it with their mental health.
So, without further ado, let's go.
Let's talk through my five biggest pointers and pieces of advice that I give people when they ask me, how do I make life easier for the person I love who is struggling with their mental health?
Where exactly do I start?
What do I do? The biggest thing you can do and the best place to start is to educate yourself.
I know that sounds super, super simple, but it does involve a bit more than just reading a Wikipedia page that lists the definition of anxiety or depression or OCD from the 1900s and like three to four symptoms.
I want you to actually do some digging.
What's the pathology? What's happening in their mind that creates this reality for them?
What's the biology? What are the reactions?
The contributors? I want you to be able to write me like a report on this.
When they're panicking, when they're overstimulated, when they're coping with a depressive episode, what does that actually mean?
What is the science? What is the psychology?
Get as much information as you can.
Firstly, so that you can act from an informed place.
You can take on the thinking for them in a crisis or in a tough situation because you kind of know what is happening on a more neurological or on a more, I don't know, unconscious level.
But secondly, sometimes feeling seen is really all that people want.
You don't have to have the answers.
It's just the fact that you tried and you went looking for them.
That is more than enough.
From personal experience, I will say that it is so validating when the person you love takes time to understand all the things that make you, you, even the things that on a personal level are quite vulnerable and hard to show people.
Because oftentimes, I think the most exhausting thing to do in the moment when life is like really, really hard.
You're in an episode, your symptoms are spiking is to have to give a reason for why this is happening or to try and find the patience or the mental energy to explain step by step, you know, what's occurring in your brain?
What does this feel like?
What's actually happening?
So coming to the table, even with just knowledge, is already doing 50% of the work for them.
I remember having a panic attack in front of a partner once, an ex-partner.
And, you know, our relationship didn't end up, it ended pretty poorly, I will say, but I will always remember this time, really, it's quite a special memory for me.
And, having this panic attack, I'm really not doing well.
And he like pulls out this explanation about what exactly is happening to my body.
And he like carefully and calmly explains it to me.
He explains the reactions in my amygdala.
He explains the norepinephrine running through my veins and what my heart rate is doing.
And having all that information being presented to me quite rationally without having to call in at myself was so special and seeing how committed he was to really getting it and getting what I was going through was so soothing.
So like I said, obviously, we're no longer together and, you know, the relationship ended pretty poorly, but it is a pretty special memory.
And it was definitely one of those times when my standards for friendship, for future relationships, for really everyone in my life increased.
I will say, as much as scientific, almost textbook information and knowledge, it is really fantastic.
And I think we could all really benefit from a deeper understanding of all the things that afflict our brains.
It is just the first step.
Part of educating yourself also means in listening to your partner when things are settled down, when the time is right, and when they have the mental space to teach you about their specific experience.
There are things your partner can tell you about themselves and whatever is racing through their mind or impacting their reality, that no one has ever written down before, that no one could know, that none of us could see, because it is so individual.
There really is no guidebook when it comes to caring and supporting someone you love, because mental health is truly different for everyone.
Of course, here I am speaking about what you can do, but something that I really want to impress upon you is that every person who is struggling with a mental illness, a mental condition, mental affliction, whatever it is, is going to experience that almost, just insanely differently from the next person.
There will be some general things that are the same.
Obviously, there are criteria that you need to meet in order to be diagnosed.
There are a general set of categories that people fall into.
But if you were to take one person with, who had been diagnosed with depression, and compared them to another person, it's still going to be different.
You know, it's still going to have a different, this person is going to have a different origin story for, you know, the first time they experienced, at a press of episode, they're going to have different sets of particularities or patterns of thoughts, or ways of responding, or behaviors.
I really want us all to remember that our brains have, I think it's like 25 quadrillion neural pathways.
That is not even a number that any of us can comprehend.
It's more stars in the Milky Way, more people than will ever be on this earth.
That is how many different connections and pathways are in each of our brains.
So the same way that none of our personalities or our realities are the same, one person's experience with their mental health is going to be as unique as they are.
Get to know their story.
This is when I want you to allow your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your loved one, to be your source of truth.
The online resources might say that anxiety or BPD looks one way, it might look irrational or highly explosive or whatever it says.
But if they're saying to you that doesn't describe my experience, trust their truth.
Because generalizations and misjudging based on a limited definition or information, is actually one of the main ways that we unintentionally uphold stigma.
Even if we don't mean to.
Some general rules here for listening to someone's speak about such hard topics is to firstly be open to the moment.
And when your partner decides that it's time to share, it's time to listen.
And I know that sounds like kind of an impossible thing.
Like, oh my gosh, what if I'm going on my way to work, and get that.
But it is so hard to talk about mental health.
Even when you feel supported, even when you think that this person won't judge you, because we have been conditioned into staying silent about it, from everything to stereotypes, to the media, to personal experiences where we've been shut down, it is so difficult to kind of get the courage to be open about something so vulnerable.
So if someone is opening up to you over text in person over the phone, if they are showing you this emotional side that you know is rare for them to reveal, and that not any random person is privy to, that is a privilege.
So please try not to move on to the next part of the conversation.
Don't try and bury it. Just be a sponge for a second.
Just be a sponge, and absorb.
Sometimes you just don't know what to say, and I get that discomfort.
It's a very human discomfort to kind of be in the situation where you're like, you know, I want you to say something, I know I should be responding to them opening up, but I just, I don't want to say the wrong thing.
I get it. So I want you to remember, the golden rule here is just to validate.
Whatever they say, your response is one of validation.
Either you say things like, you know, that must be so typical.
That makes sense while you're so upset about this.
No, you're not overreacting.
This is a tough situation.
I'm here for you. Take your time.
Have a few of those up your sleeve.
Like literally just put it all back onto them and acknowledging their experience.
Or ask questions that create that positive emotional space for them to share more.
Things like, I want to hear more about that if you want to share.
And what happened afterwards?
How are you feeling now?
That is the golden rule.
Well, actually there's two golden rules.
So I guess a golden and a silver, golden and silver rule.
The gold rule is to validate as much as possible.
The gold rule is to listen more than you speak.
And try not to insert yourself into what they're experiencing by comparing your experiences, interrupting, or I think worse but hardest of all, thinking that what they're going through always comes back to you.
Because a lot of the time, it doesn't.
If someone is anxious, if someone is upset, frustrated, irritated, sometimes out to hand in seeers to see their emotions and feel threatened by them.
Like, oh, are they mad at me?
Are they anxious about our relationship?
Is this what it's all about?
I get the inclination just pause for a second.
If it was about you, trust them to say something.
People with mental health concerns can stand up for themselves.
Like they're not weak or confused or deceitful or anything of the sort.
If it was about you, they would say so.
But often, you are part of the solution for them, rather than the problem.
That is why they are trusting you.
Because they see a future.
They want you to know them deeply and intimately.
So just try not to jump to conclusions about what they're feeling or who or what it's towards.
This brings me to my next point.
Don't always assume that you know what's best.
And instead, really learn how they most like to be treated or helped through a tough moment.
Because again, it's very individual and it may be different to what you may need.
The first instinct that we have when we see someone we love in pain, suffering, panicking, is to immediately jump into action.
That shows you have a deep bond when their pain is your pain.
It's also reflective of the existence of these things called mirror neurons between you two, which are basically connections in your brain that match the connections in theirs on a neurological level.
These mirror neurons will be the most important in theirs on a neurological level.
These mirror neurons were first observed actually in monkeys who had these really, really complex social bonds that meant that sometimes these primates could feel each other's pain quite literally.
But there was this groundbreaking research in 2022, only two years ago, which is such a short time when it comes to science.
And it found these same neurons first identified in the monkeys were also present in you and I.
The existence of mirror neurons means that when you see someone you love or you're connected to struggling, you will sometimes feel some of that same tension, stress, even sensory pain that they do.
And this really makes you want to do something for both of your stakes.
Pause for a second. You might have all the love in the world but there are just some things you can't fix, especially in the moment.
So you don't need to be the solution for them.
Just provide them with what they need most from you to help them get to not even a place of looking for a solution themselves, but just to a place of serenity and calm and peace.
What do they need? What would they most want from you right now?
And if you don't know the easiest way is to ask some people prefer comfort, some people prefer solutions, silence, they just want to be listened to.
Typically the three things that people need most are known as the three H's.
Do you want to be helped, held or heard?
Basically just get to know your partner's processing language or style.
The same way that we have a love language, most of us have an emotional processing language.
Often it's a combination, but at different times you do need different things.
Do you need to be able to physically express what you're feeling, to creatively express what you're feeling, do you prefer intellectualizing, problem solving, verbally talking it out, do you just need silence?
That's sometimes something that I need.
Get to know what is your partner's like first way, or your friend or your loved one, what is the first way they like to go about a problem?
Or something that they're going through?
Is it just to sit with it themselves or is it to do something?
Let them kind of guide you in what is best for them because they do know themselves best in this situation.
That means that they are actually going to get the support that they require from you.
I remember the story of my friend going through a really, really rough time and her boyfriend cleaned their house to the dishes, to the groceries.
So lovely from him. She was like, I don't know why, but I was so frustrated about that.
In my mind, I was coming home and I wanted to have control of this situation and I wanted to do those chores.
That was going to be a way for me to work through the problems in my brain by working through the things that needed to be done in the house.
That control was really what I needed in that moment and he kind of took that away from me.
You would never know that.
You would never know that he obviously was doing what he thought was best.
But sometimes the most meaningful thing is not what you think is best.
It's what the person actually requires.
And I know that it's just like the simple principle, but I think it's an important reminder to just ask.
Honestly, you could also make a list in your notes app to remind you of what moods, what situations require, what from you, both from conversations with them and also from noticing things in the moment.
For me, I have a list for myself when I'm panicking or just overwhelmed with anxiety or going through a real, you know, down period in my life.
I have this list of like, it's almost up to 20 things that I know I can do that I know I would need or could help.
Progressive muscle relaxation is one of them calling my boyfriend and talking you out, taking a big walk in nature, listening to a guided meditation, and what's really, really valuable to me is that my partner has a similar one.
If like, okay, if this is what's happening, this is what we need to do.
This is like a plan of attack.
It's like an individualized guidebook.
And I think like we are at this stage in our relationship where he knows that if I'm having a really, really rough time, I really don't want to hear a solution from him.
I really don't need him.
Problems, alving for me, as kind and beautiful and lovely as that is.
I actually need to be present in the crisis and fix it myself.
So him coming in and suggesting things is just overwhelming and stressful.
That is my perspective.
That is what I need. But for other people, they really do need that rational voice outside of their head to say something and to help them through whatever it is they're going through.
So just try not to infantize your partner.
This is something I see a lot and I get people complaining about it to me a lot.
Like, why does my boyfriend treat me like I'm stupid just because I'm anxious?
Why is everyone always asking me if I'm okay?
Like, I'm a little child.
Why does my boss always speak to me in host tones?
Why do people just take over parts of my life thinking that I don't know how to do it?
In fantasization, really, it goes when people with mental health concerns feel like because their brain works differently, they suddenly are seen as less capable or knowledgeable about their own condition and their own life.
People become overprotective.
They misjudge what they're able to do and they think they know better, which also contributes to that unsolicited advice giving we spoke about earlier or trying to problem solve their lives to them when actually they can do it themselves if you give them the support and the safety net and the structures around that.
Basically, just don't treat your partner or your loved one like a child and you should be all good.
You should continue to have a respectful two-way relationship.
Okay, we are going to take a short break but when we return, we'll discuss the three final pieces of advice.
I have for you when you're supporting someone who is struggling.
Don't go anywhere, stay with us, we'll be back after this short break.
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There is something so beautiful about someone who respects your lived reality enough to defend it even when you're not around.
There is something really, really beautiful about someone who doesn't ignore your experiences and what you're going through even though it's not directly impacting them.
If you want to be a supportive partner, a supportive loved one, think about how you speak about mental health when they're not around.
Changing stigma, changing prejudice, advocating for mental health to be seen and to be respected can't just be in the hands of the people who are struggling.
It's also up to the people who love them to really spark meaningful, positive change to challenge their own beliefs and the beliefs of those around them just to make the world a little bit safer.
If you hear someone say something that's just plain wrong, say so.
If you witness a policy in your workplace that you know would make it harder for someone like the person you love to show up in their job or career, say something.
If a relative is deliberately being bigoted or judgmental, say something.
That is, impart your responsibility.
I think make the world a little bit softer and gentler for your loved one to enter.
I think in those moments when you stand up, you speak out, you challenge what people might incorrectly believe or assume.
You're not just defending your loved one.
You're also kind of paving away for a future where they don't have to fight those battles themselves and that where they can be open and vulnerable about what they're going through.
You're basically just helping create a society where there is, where mental health is treated with the same importance and dignity as physical health.
I think your actions are a really powerful message.
Not just to the world, but to the people around you to your close circle, who probably also interact with your loved one that mental health matters.
It's not something to be swept under the rug.
It's not something to kind of cringe away from and be like, oh, that's uncomfortable, that's strange.
I don't want to, you know, as I can tell you just, I don't want anything to do about it.
You're being very clear, like, no, this is worth defending.
I'm going to speak about this.
I care about this and it deserves your respect.
In doing so, I think you just really contribute to a culture of empathy and a culture of understanding.
And it's one of those most beautiful acts of love and true organic support.
I just think it's one of the most gorgeous things that you can do is to say, you know, I'm not just going to support you and in private.
I'm going to advocate for you in public, whatever that means.
It also has the secondary consequence impact, I guess, of making it feel like you're doing something when sometimes there's nothing that you can really do for them in the sense that you can't cure their mental health.
You can't always fix this problem, but you can make the world and the systems that are in place around mental health more accessible, less discriminatory, less stigmatized.
So I do think that you get purpose from it, even better you get a sense of agency, productivity, progress, you feel like you are doing something for this person you love when sometimes you can feel quite powerless in the face of a very private battle with mental health.
So that's tip number three.
For this next tip, we are actually going to take a step back from your partner, the person you love for just a second.
And focus on you. I want to validate you for just a moment.
Seeing someone struggle elicits a lot of weird, confusing feelings in us.
Guilt that we can't fix the pain, sometimes an assumption of responsibility for their mental health.
Exorption, stress for them, for their well-being, for their safety, and it can take its toll.
I know that you would do it no matter what.
I know that you probably don't feel like a hero for just loving someone the way that they should be loved.
There's really no like special award for that.
But there have been some really important studies showing that when we tend to take on a lot of what our partner is feeling and managing, that can really bleed into our own emotional state.
And it can impact our mood, our ability to cope, our sense of optimism for the future.
And it can be really hopeless at times.
And the complicated thing with mental health is that the person experiencing it feels alone.
It is an isolated experience.
You cannot take the pain from your brain and put it on the table and let people touch it and feel it and understand what it feels like for you.
But you also do have to watch them struggle.
And you probably have your own anxiety and worries about them that you end up managing your own.
You may even be dealing with your own mental health.
So as much as you want to be there everything you want to find the magic cure, as much as you want to help, sometimes you just can't and you need to fill your own cup.
It's like they always say this on planes.
Put on your own mask before helping others.
Sometimes we can get so concerned and wound up in someone else's internal conflicts and pain that we drop off of our own self-care practices.
And we stop pouring energy in our own lives.
So that's really tip number four.
Time and space for yourself is a non-negotiable.
And I want you and your partner to be on the same page about that.
Whether it's, you know, an afternoon, a day just for you, whether you have boundaries around, when you can kind of take on the mental load, basically I think any point where you feel extreme tension, you feel things tearing, you feel yourself getting really, really stressed or you feel like your relationship isn't working, that is where a boundary is required.
Discomfort is the biggest indicator that a boundary is needed in that space.
Sometimes that feels really, really hard when you just love them so much and you don't want to let them down, you don't want to say no, you don't want to make them feel silenced.
But it does actually mean that taking space for yourself now means you can continue to show up for them into the future.
It's also really worthwhile, I think, having a confident yourself, whether that's a therapist, a sibling, an anonymous support group, a really trusted friend.
And the thing is, is that you don't have to go into extreme detail of like, yeah, my girlfriend Jenny, like this is exactly what happened at 2pm last, yesterday afternoon, and this is the medication she's taking, and this is her entire history, her mental health history, you don't have to do that.
You can focus on how the situation is making you feel, and you can get the support that you require.
I reminder, I think, that it's not selfish to know your limits.
It's not selfish to know how much you are able to take on what you can and can't carry.
In fact, I think it's incredibly self-aware and loving to know what works for you and to want to be able to care and love your friend, your sibling, your partner, your mom, whoever it is, for as long as possible, without that taking a toll on you and your relationship, or minimizing the toll that it can take on your relationship.
This may also be hard to hear, and I know some people might not like me for saying this, but it's also okay to leave the relationship when you are noticing an effect on your own mental health.
When their mental health is creating behaviors that aren't okay, that are unhealthy for you or for them, even if it isn't something that they can control, because I think feeling obligated to stay just because of their mental health or feeling guilty for leaving as they are in the motivation for staying.
Firstly, it creates a really unbalanced dynamic in your relationship of like, well, I'm only staying with you because of your mental health.
It's kind of like, well, you have no incentive to improve because then I'll leave you, if you get what I'm saying.
So it's unbalanced, first of all, but also it's just not a great foundation for a relationship to survive, or for either of you to get better, or to even be the better versions of yourself, to be happy if the relationship is creating a really terrible cycle for both of you.
So it is okay to leave, make the decision that is right for you, and then you can start thinking, you know, what supports do they have in place?
How do I deliver this kindly?
One would be the best time to talk about this, who should maybe know beforehand if that's also a consideration.
I know it's a really hard decision, but you're not a bad person for prioritizing your health and your wellbeing, first and foremost, because otherwise you have two people who are just not doing very well, and that's more than I think a relationship can sometimes take on.
I want to give you all some final rapid-fire tips that I hope stick in your brain for when you most need them, and someone supporting someone you love with their mental health.
First up, never give ultimatums as much as this may be hard for you.
Trust me, they know what you're feeling, probably ten times what you're going through, and if they could make it all go away, if that was an option, they would have done it a long time ago, and in a heartbeat.
And that's not to say that mental illness is like a disease for which we should only be looking for a cure, but what I'm saying is that this is something that people can't necessarily change.
It's wired into their brain, and so asking them to fix it, asking them to get better within a short period of time, to get it all together, to find some way through, you know, it's basically the equivalent of saying, actually just hide this for me to make my life easier, so I don't have to deal with it.
Rather than let's find a way of coping and healing together, let's let this experience make a stronger, know that you can lean on me, and ultimatum basically just says, you know, get cure yourself, fix yourself, but actually that's not an option, so lie to me about it, and can see all things for me, which is not necessarily, or even a tiny bit, healthy.
Secondly, know when it's too much for the both of you, and outside help is needed.
This probably, now that I'm thinking about it, should have been tip number one, but even therapists, even psychiatrists, even the most skilled, educated, wise people in the world, do not act as the physicians or the psychologists for their family members or their friends or their partners, because they know that the help that is needed goes beyond them.
You need a neutral trained third party to be a confidant, to offer support, assistance.
You need something and someone beyond you.
You just can't be everything, but you can be the one who encourages them to get the help they need, because there is trust in your relationship, they're going to feel safe enough to take the next step, they're going to feel safe in the fact that you're the one encouraging them, and you wouldn't do anything that's going to hurt them.
Therapy is really, really hard if you've never been before, and even when you have been before, it's a tricky experience, it's hard being so open with someone at the beginning, especially since, you know, I think a therapy client relationship requires a lot of trust, and trust is mainly a product of time, so at the very beginning, it can feel awkward to talk to a stranger,
basically, about things that you may have only ever told a partner or loved ones, but there is a good reason why everyone recommends therapy and why you should go, because to be honest, it works.
If it's something that is accessible to you, I really, I really, really would recommend it.
Finally, make time to still have a relationship, even if that means adjustments.
Your love has kind of got to exist through this, and love does take effort.
The hardest thing, one of the hardest things that I've recognized for people who have relationships in which one of them is dealing with their mental health is to find a way to still actively date each other, even if that looks differently.
Mental health is always going to be part of your dynamic.
It might come and go and sometimes be a lot quieter than at other times, but it's still going to be present the same way that a physical injury, a physical illness, a physical condition would be, and I don't want that to be a scary thing for you.
I want you to remember why you're together, even in dark times.
I want you to still love and celebrate this person and be celebrated yourself.
I still want you to make memories that bond you and actively date each other so that this connection between you two only becomes stronger throughout everything that you're going through.
You know, full on date nights might not always be on the cards.
There may be times when we're at capacity, we need space, we need an idea.
You don't want to socialize, but find a night, a morning, a weekend, every now and again, when you focus on what's in the future, you focus on you two, you focus on what's good, and you nurture the connection that is, you know, the reason you're listening to this episode because you love them and because you care about them and because you want them to get better, to
feel better, to get back on their feet, and I guess you also just want your love to last.
You want to do what's best by them, and I think that that is a really beautiful commitment and a sign of commitment to your relationship.
I will also say, I know I just said, that's my final thing, but one more thing, you're not always going to get everything right, and I just want to give you the permission that you need right now for that to be the case.
Even me, someone who talks about mental health twice a week daily, every, probably like every single day I talk about mental health, I have mental health problems with my own, I have family members with mental health problems.
There are still times when I'm just like, I really don't know what to say in this situation, and I'm probably going to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, but it's okay if you're doing it earnestly, and from a place of genuine curiosity and care, not everyone, I think the thing to say about this is that mental health is really, really complicated, that even the people
who are experiencing it don't always know what's going on.
So the fact that you don't know what's going on either means that you're probably on the same boat, so just give yourself some grace and some forgiveness to just try, and when in doubt, like we said, Golden Roll, Validate, Listen, Love, and you'll be doing just fine.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode.
If you've got this far, I hope that you learnt something, I hope that you feel more equipped to show up in this situation, to provide kindness and love and care to this person that you love.
And yeah, if there's someone else that you think needs to hear this episode, please feel free to share with them.
Make sure that if you did enjoy this, leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.
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Again, thank you for listening.
And until next time, stay safe, stay kind, and be gentle with yourself.
We will talk very, very soon.
