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People, my people, what's up?
This is Questlove. Man, I cannot believe we're already wrapping up another season of Questlove Supreme.
Man, we've got some amazing guests lined up to close out the season, but you know, I don't want any of you guys to miss all the incredible conversations we've had so far.
I mean, we talked to A.
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Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, hey, now's your chance.
You gotta check them out.
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Hello and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Big topic this week, big topic for our 20s as well.
We're talking about interpersonal conflict of all sorts on this episode.
We're talking about fighting, we're talking about the drama of arguments, of fights with family, of friends.
It's pretty normal to have conflict with people as we're figuring ourselves out, but also in general, not just in our 20s.
We fight and we start conflict when we're misunderstood, when we feel underappreciated, slighted, betrayed and for no reason at all, really.
I think fights between our friends, our partners, maybe our colleagues, your other forms of social triggers.
So it's a sense that people elsewhere are having fun or doing things without you.
Pretty quickly, we can see how this has links to social anxiety and has a huge intersection with psychology despite being somewhat of a pop culture friend.
Others, why we can't let things go, why we rehearse arguments in our head and how to release anger towards another person.
Psychology has so much to say about interpersonal conflict.
It's a massive part of social psychology.
So let's dive right in.
I don't think we need a debton as well as being a consequence.
So let's get into it.
In the world, I'm sure we've all had a fight with someone or a disagreement of some kind that went a little bit too far.
It's a pretty nasty feeling.
It's an anxious feeling to be fighting with someone close to us, especially when we don't really know how it's going to work out or if things can be fixed.
I don't think that fighting with others interpersonal conflict is avoidable, but we can make it easier on ourselves and others and have happy outcomes rather than disastrous ones, I guess.
So there are many reasons that conflict in our interpersonal relationships may arise, maybe even more common with people we love.
Or who we're close to because we feel comfortable enough to express our anger and our insecurities.
We're also more likely to feel misunderstood by the people we believe should understand us.
So that perception of feeling misunderstood, perhaps it's not the reality that they don't understand you.
They probably understand you more than most people.
But that perception that they should know, they should know how you'd be feeling.
They should know how you'd react to their words, to their actions.
So yeah, I think when we have people close to us, it's probably more common that we have that conflict with them.
And I think although there's a lot of doubt in this already, but FOMO, it's not so much a scientific term, but more of like a cultural one at the moment.
However, since we have been able to label it because these feelings have been around for many people in past generations, you're probably not listening to their perspective.
If you're really mad, it's very hard to see where they might be coming from.
And it's hard to express where you're coming from as well.
Arguing and fighting can actually lead to worse outcomes because we don't sit back and think about both sides of the narrative.
Take this study, for example.
So a study of nurses found that when they argued about patient care on the treatment floor, they were less likely to arrive at an uneasy and some focus on the task at hand in favor of the interpersonal conflict.
That's a pretty real world example.
You know, they're not able to actually provide care as well if fighting and conflict is getting in the way.
So where does this kind of nastiness, not so much nastiness, and I want to use the word conflict again, these disruptions to the harmony of our relationships.
Yeah. Where does fighting come from?
Why does it occur? Anger at someone can come from quite a few places, obviously, and there's a few main reasons that psychologists have kind of identified as the leading causes.
So uncomfortable. I'm sure that many others who have occasionally experienced it, likely suppressing their discomfort.
So probably wouldn't even realize that they have felt that unease that they're missing out.
So the fear of missing out, it's closely linked to a mild form of social anxiety and might be more common in those with generalized anxiety disorder.
So words correctly, but comprehended them in a manner that did not align with your intent.
Or perhaps they interpreted your silence in a way that was consistent or inconsistent with the message you wanted to send.
Importantly, people aren't mind readers.
My therapist says this to me all the time, perception and intention.
I'm doing these, but this, this podcast has discussed this link between FOMO and social anxiety.
So in all their experiments, they found that FOMO is a f -ing and it's difficult for people to pick up on what we're really saying if we're not being clear.
So similar to this feeling misunderstood in a more general sense, maybe the way someone has treated you or something they've said really contradicts how you see yourself and aspects of your identity that you think are important.
So you feel attacked by what you perceive their kind of idea of you as being.
You feel misunderstood by how you believe they see you.
Regardless of their source, misunderstandings can really damage relationships if they're not handled swiftly.
First, you should really ask yourself if you're actually being misunderstood or if the other person's read of the situation is maybe warranted.
I think often we privilege our viewpoints and presume objectivity when in fact, what we said can indeed be interpreted in so many ways.
Even slight changes in tone, another study that was done that I found really interesting was they gave this script of three lines to all to the same individuals.
Whereas social anxiety is more commonly involves an avoidance of social situations or a fear of being in a social situation that you can't get out of.
But we can kind of see how FOMO may contribute to social anxiety.
So people with a so it was the tone or the attitude of the person or the meaning of what they were saying, the emotion behind what they were saying on a scale and they gave them different kind of scale.
So how happy do you think this person was?
Do you think this person was angry?
Do you think this person was upset?
And there were like so many different interpretations.
And I think when that happens, we need to communicate, tell someone how you feel, it's a fear of not being present in social situations, whereas social anxiety involves that fear.
How did you say that?
Why did you think that was appropriate?
And let them explain themselves.
Give them, you know, a platform to maybe actually fix what what is started.
Like I said, people can't read your mind.
So if you're not clear about your reaction to their actions or words, resentment can start to build.
This leads us to the second reason you may find yourself fighting or in conflict with someone you care about.
Something has been building for a while.
Maybe it's a comment you can't let go of or a pattern of behaviour that you haven't called out before believing that the other person will maybe recognise your disappointment themselves someday.
This really happens.
People aren't going to wake up and be like, oh, I think that person is mad at me.
And they're probably not going to even know where it started.
Instead, if you hold on to every slight and start keeping a mental list of everything they said, everything they've done that they should know is wrong, soon you'll crack.
And inevitably the outcome will be worse than if you just said something the moment you recognised you were feeling hurt.
The explosion of emotions that we all probably understand after the fact is never helpful because we've found that you're less likely to have experience as a phomer even if you are confronted by the idea that you are potentially missing out on an experience or something you'd like to be included in.
In that way, kind of interpretation I have of you rolled your eyes and they'll feel attacked and immediately on the defensive.
And we're going to discuss why people react this way to confrontation in a few minutes.
But finally, the last reason that psychologists have found we fight for.
You feel hurt by someone's actions.
This is probably the most obvious reason.
Maybe they have done something deliberately and you feel betrayed or lied to and hurt.
And that completes as an explanation for FOMO.
So research situations can be useful, especially in romantic relationships.
Obviously it has its limits.
We're not talking about resorting to physical violence.
But expressing your emotions right away is probably a good practice to have rather than waiting for that volcanic eruption of anger and resentment and attacks.
Heaps of studies have found that fighting with a partner, a boyfriend or a girlfriend might actually be quite healthy.
I always remember this one scene from The Office.
I don't know why it's really stuck with me.
But if you are in office, an office connoisseur like myself, if you've watched it a few times or maybe just once, you'll know Jim and Pam.
Even if you haven't watched The Office, Jim and Pam, the star couple of the show.
And after they'd been married for a couple of years, they start to have this sense of misunderstanding that their needs aren't being met.
And Jim, they're at this kind of climax of this, you know, they're almost at the point where they just need to fight.
And Jim says to Pam, you know, I don't want to go home because if we go home, we're just going to fight.
And Pam says, I want to fight.
I really want to. And that's kind of a really healthy way of seeing it.
She's not avoiding it another minute longer.
She's not saying, oh, that just creates the foundation for FOMO.
It's not really your fault.
It's genetics. It's biology.
It's that instinct in you to want to be included and want to be accepted.
Honestly. And when you fight with someone, I think the reason it's healthy is because it shows that you both care.
If you didn't, you wouldn't be concerned with feeling like your perspective had to be understood or that you needed the conflict to resolve.
When, I guess, partners fight within an environment that allows clear expression, this can help strengthen their bond with partners, both kind of actively participating to resolve the disagreement.
There's comfort as well.
A learned comfort in knowing that conflicts can be maturely and warmly handled without risking the relationship's future.
It's kind of a really good way to avoid anxiety around upsetting someone or avoid anxiety around, you know, are they mad at me if you get into that practice of just speaking your mind early?
And I think with this, partners can freely bring up disappointments and unhappiness without leaving room for resentment.
Ultimately, this can kind of help to strengthen the relationship and probably improve its odds of lasting.
I would say so. I don't think it's a social media use.
These feelings strongly correlate to feelings of regret and social insignificance as well.
As people consume large amounts of social media posts, they start to compare themselves not only physically as we would traditionally think, but also as we're accepting your partner's clarification.
You both learn new things about each other.
You learn what upsets them.
You learn what maybe triggers them, what behaviours they don't like.
How you can treat them better.
It might also be things like communication methods.
So maybe your partner's voice goes lower when they are feeling particularly hurt.
And that's something you can pick up on in the future.
Discussions of the origins of social media or the origins of FOMO if you're already feeling insecure or insignificance, because if they're bringing it up with you, they know what's best for them and they know what they like and what they don't like and what makes them happy.
And other times it may simply be learning about their hopes for the relationship, but also your fears.
Like if you're worried about fighting, are you fearful that, you know, your partner might leave you?
Are you fearful that something's wrong?
So so far, those kind of ones we just talked about, we've been talking about conflict or fights that seem to have a purpose or which are trying to get us to a place of deeper understanding.
And I know I used intimate relationships or like, you know, partners as an example, but that can also apply to friends as well and to family getting to, you know, having the opportunity to strengthen your bond and understand what's OK and what's not in your relationship.
But what about the times when we really don't need to be arguing?
Why do we start fights when we don't want to have a fight, when we don't want to argue?
Sometimes we can get into these argument cycles, especially with intimate partners.
And this is something that social psychology has seen a lot when we look at married couples or we look at partners.
So those high in FOMO, they tended to use Facebook more often immediately after waking up before going to sleep, during meals, at work, in the bathroom, all of those kind of habits that create a dependency on social media.
And intimate cycles are usually caused by negative communication patterns that restrict understanding and respect in a relationship or that kind of force that understanding to only be in the short term.
You know, maybe you're just accepting that person's viewpoint just to finish the argument and you never actually do reach a good understanding of where they're coming from on a deeper level.
It's not really the topic of the argument that matters.
It's what the need to argue represents.
And that might be poor communication, it might be unresolved problems, but it might also just be that you didn't listen the first time.
Apart from argument cycles, which if you're interested in, you should Google it.
Or if you're finding yourself in that situation, it's completely normal.
And it's, yeah, there's a lot of interesting research behind it.
So if you're interested, have a Google.
But there are other reasons we may argue just for the sake of it.
So if you followed the science of sleep at all, you know that missing sleep has all kinds of negative effects.
I'm such a proponent of this.
Everyone knows if you don't get enough sleep, you don't get those seven, eight hours.
What are you doing?
Go back to bed. How about now?
Cool and sick? It's bad for your health, your brain and your ability to get things done.
And I think sleep also plays an important role in arguments as well, even when you kind of weed out the effects of related issues like stress and anxiety.
And a study that looked at couples in a laboratory found that even when just one partner had gotten too little sleep, both partners were less likely to act warmly towards one another or resolve problems and more likely to get into fights.
And it's this idea of like a self -fulfilling prophecy.
Accurate. We're still confronted with a perfectly curated version of others lives, and it does create an unachievable, false social reality that can exacerbate an already - Where if someone is treating you warmly, you'll respond warmly.
And if someone is cranky and in a bad mood, you'll probably respond in the same way.
Conflict may also arise because you're irritated or you're projecting on someone close to you.
So Freud's idea of projection is super important when we consider interpersonal conflict, especially amongst people close to us.
Projection, it occurs when we place our unwanted emotions and feelings program as someone else who is not the intended target.
We just place our feelings onto them because we may be frustrated at someone else or another situation, but feel like we can't really voice our anger or frustration to the situation who really deserves it.
And I had this happen to me the other day.
I was really frustrated at this person I was seeing.
I can't remember why.
It's probably reasonable, though.
And I was in a bad mood.
My sister asked me to drive her somewhere and I didn't want to because I was irritated and she pushed it and I just got really upset and we ended up having like a bit of a screaming match.
We had a bit of an argument.
But the thing is, but they often put forward the theory that our happiness, it's directly caused by how we allocate our attention.
So one researcher puts it perfectly in an article they wrote about FOMO in your 20s.
When you attend what you attend to drives your behavior and it determines your happiness attention.
And it can leave you feeling really guilty.
You know, maybe it's like a close friend or your housemate and you're just in such a rotten mood, you've had a bad day at work and they're the ones who kind of cop the the sharp end of it.
We're going to talk about what to do in those situations, what you shouldn't do in a fight if you want to have a healthy and happy conclusion.
This is much about withdrawing attention from the negative as it is about attending to the positive.
So that might seem.
What shouldn't you do?
That's a really big question.
I think people ask the therapist or other people.
A lot. What shouldn't you do?
What's not effective?
And the first thing is criticism.
You really shouldn't criticize someone when you're arguing with them.
Criticism happens when you're critical of your partner's personality rather than the action or behavior you're trying to talk through.
And there's a distinction between a criticism and a complaint.
They argue that expressing a complaint to they being this person that I was reading this from.
So this author argues that expressing a complaint is an important component of a healthy relationship and it reduces the likely of built up suppressed anger, which we've talked about.
Expressing a criticism, however, involves making an accusation against the person's personality.
A complaint often starts with I.
Whereas a criticism starts with you.
So, for example, a complaint might be I'd love to eat.
I don't want to eat leftovers for dinner every week.
Whereas a criticism might be you always order too much food.
Contempt commonly follows criticism and it's problematic because it can be poisonous to any kind of relationship you have.
So we want to keep content.
Does also allow you to be less concerned about what others might be doing without you.
If you're surrounded by people whose company you really value.
But obviously, just a big, big disclaimer.
I'm not a professional.
I'm just an amateur kind of apply sarcastic remark.
Antagonistic commentary, mocking behavior or hostility.
And it's such a strong emotion that you would be surprised how often it's used against others and used against your otherwise well -meaning partner.
Contempt hurts the person you're arguing with and it hurts your relationship.
So it's good to keep it out.
I think couples are often so become harder for those feelings of missing out to come up.
And if you realize that others got in model, it's said to kind of try to not feel defensive, try and just get your point across, but accept what the other person is saying.
It doesn't matter what was said or what was intended when they said it.
The other person feels hurt and reacts defensively.
So effectively, defensive reactions means you're like, you're pre guessing, you're not listening.
You're just looking for a way to defend yourself.
And it's not going to make you very good at solving real problems in real time.
The other thing you really shouldn't do, and this fucking annoys me so much, stonewalling.
Stonewalling happens in a relationship when one or both people in the relationship, and I'm not just talking about romantic, it could be with a friend, with a housemate, with a family member.
But it happens when one party stops reacting or responding to the other.
And this occurs most often after all the other communication patterns, criticism, contempt and defensiveness have been a standard part of your relationship for some time.
So likely you're feeling overwhelmed by the problems in your relationship with the other person.
So you just withdraw emotionally from each other.
Stonewalling is an active gesture in that it clearly intends to convey a lack of care or interest.
And we talked about this.
Fighting is good at shows a week.
Bye. This year, I've been really rethinking my relationship with alcohol.
And so I decided to commit to dry January to really kickstart 2025 and just test myself.
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Let the other person speak, take time away from the argument.
And that's the other big one.
I saw this TikTok about this couple.
And when they argue, they have this like timeout symbol, it's just the timeout symbol.
And it means that they need a break and they should go on a walk or do something that they like doing together.
And I thought that was so smart.
I was like, wow, I wish I could do that with someone like I'm having an argument with my mom.
I'm like, oh my God, I'm on a timeout and responsibly and good luck with which we probably could.
It's a really, really healthy strategy.
There are some people, though, who seem to always be having conflict maybe with you or with others.
Maybe you have a friend who seems to always have some grievance with your mutual friends or is arguing with their partner week in and week out.
And although the latter sounds like more of a problematic relationship than anything else, these kinds of people are known as high conflict individuals.
People who have a pattern of high conflict behavior that increases fighting and arguments with others rather than reducing or resolving conflict.
This pattern usually happens over and over again in many different situations with many different people.
It's not just that when they're cranky and tired, they start conflict or it's just with their boyfriend.
It's kind of a universal pattern.
And the issue that seems in conflict at the time, it's not what's increasing the conflict.
This person could argue about anything.
The real issue is the high conflict personality and how the person approaches problem solving.
So with these high conflict individuals, the pattern of behavior might include blaming others, all or nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors, stonewalling.
And it can be really hard to maintain relationships with these people as your friends, as people in your lives.
We don't like being in conflict.
We don't like being threatened.
And in general, people tend to want to avoid a confrontation.
So if you've got someone who seems to almost get joy out of it or seems to make it a ritual, you're not really going to want to be around them very often.
Yelling at someone, fighting with someone, expressing anger, immediately places someone on the defensive, which we already kind of mentioned.
And this is important to understand on a deeper level from a psychological perspective, because it leads to worse outcomes interpersonally.
So how does our brain react when we feel threatened?
When we perceive a threat, the amygdala, which is an area of the old brain deep in the limbic system, it's responsible for fear and fear responses.
The amygdala sounds an alarm, releasing a cascade of chemicals in the body.
Stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol, they flood our system, immediately preparing us to fight or to flee.
So when this deeply instinctive function takes over, we call it what Daniel Coleman coined as Amygdala Hijack.
So the act of amygdala almost immediately shuts down the neural pathway to our prefrontal cortex.
Prefrontal cortex is where we make decisions and we problem solve.
So we become disorientated in a heated discussion.
And like I said, complex decision making disappears, as does our access to multiple perspectives, as that's kind of a way our frontal lobe is also responsible for empathy.
So being able to kind of step into someone's ulcer's shoes.
So as our attention narrows, we find ourselves trapped in one perspective that makes us feel the most safe.
You know, I'm right and you're wrong, even though we ordinarily would be able to see the other person's side.
And if that wasn't enough, our memory becomes untrustworthy as well, because this old brain, it shuts down all of the kind of accessory functions, it just focuses on the thing that's happening in the moment, the threat in the moment.
So have you ever been in a partner with a friend or your partner, been in a fight with a partner or your friend and you literally cannot remember a single positive thing about them?
You know, you're in this fight and you're like, oh my God, I fucking hate this person.
It's as though our brain drops the memory function altogether in an effort to survive the immediate threat.
And when our memory is compromised like this, we can't recall something from the past that might actually help us calm down.
In fact, we can't really remember much of anything, perhaps even how we even got there.
Instead, we're simply filled with this flashing red light of the amygdala indicating danger, danger, protect, attack, react.
And in the throes of amygdala hijack, we can't choose how we want to react because of those instinctual protective mechanisms in the nervous system or more specifically the limbic system.
So that's kind of an explanation as to why we don't like confrontation, but there's a way that our brain kind of prepares us for it.
So have you ever found yourself rehearsing arguments in your head?
I'm sure that you have.
Fantasizing about what you would say to someone to really get to them, what you would say to someone to win the argument or to shock them.
There is a reason why our minds do this and why it can feel so satisfying to lie in bed or sit in the shower and rehearse.
Hypothetical or play conflict out in our minds, when in reality, those situations would be quite stressful.
So by rehearsing conversations, we're trying to get our needs net.
If we're not good at assertive communication, sometimes rehearsing those conversations in advance can be a way of becoming more confident when difficult chats kind of approach.
It can also provide a release without requiring us to actually have the argument.
So sometimes rehearsing the arguments in our head distracts us from the real source of distress.
You know, like, is my relationship going to end?
But it also provides an outlet so that we kind of release some of the tension that might be building up.
So it's kind of a way of avoiding the other problem or the obvious problem and instead focusing on the minute details of the argument at hand and evading the bigger picture and its implications to give our brain not only practice, but a sense of release before the actual storm.
Anyway, I thought that was really interesting, a small tidbit for those who find themselves rehearsing or imagining hypothetical arguments in the shower and the car.
I do that all the time.
It's so it's like kind of fun.
It makes sense from a psychological perspective.
My brain kind of gets off on it because it's like a little treat without having to do the real thing.
But we do we start fights for so many reasons and it's so important not to fester.
Take time to calm down and tap into what we're genuinely upset about before projecting.
And fighting that aftermath of guilt, shame and anxiety that might accompany a conflict.
Perhaps even one we didn't even want to have in the first place.
We've all been there.
I've been there. You've been there.
But changing from a defensive to a receptive state like we've talked about can really be helpful in minimizing the conflict we have with others.
Obviously, I'm not a trained psychologist.
I'm just kind of researching this stuff, but definitely a lot of these things I bring into my own life.
Next time I find myself, you know, arguing with someone or not.
I don't really find myself in fights and I find that I'm not very confrontational, but someone was upset at me.
I feel like instead of getting defensive, a lot of these strategies would be really useful.
Like that timeout strategy.
I'm going to I'm going to do that.
Thank you, TikTok, for showing me the way.
Anyhow, I hope you guys learned something about why we fight, why we have arguments, the people in our lives who have arguments more than others and how to kind of release that anger and get to a better outcome, especially with someone you might be dating or in a long term relationship with.
You don't really want to lose that person.
You've you've invested time and energy and love for a reason.
So I hope you enjoyed this episode and you got something out of it if you've listened all this way.
I always say this at the end, but if you do feel called or if you've liked this episode and you feel called to leave a review, I would greatly appreciate it.
You can leave a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and it helps the community of listeners grow, helps people find this episode or other episodes that might be interesting to them.
If you don't want to do it, that's fine.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for tagging along.
And I will see you guys next week or maybe even in a few days when we record our Valentine's Day edition of Love Line.
Thank you so much. And have a lovely evening, morning, afternoon, wherever you are in the world.
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John Stewart is back in the host chair at The Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears on The Daily Show, Ears Edition podcast.
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