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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology of your 20s and back for another dating episode.
I think we all kind of want to know the secret to love, right?
The secret not just to finding our person but also making it last and making the relationship healthy and sustainable and fulfilling for not just the next few months but hopefully the next few years maybe our entire lives.
There are a lot of different dating tips, dating advice out there around how exactly to do that.
But what I found is that if you really want true long lasting love, if you want to find somebody in your 20s and your 30s whenever you are ready instead of just rushing into any connection that passes you by instead of really getting swept up in big romances and big love affairs that burn very very bright, go slow, approach, love, approach dating any of those endeavors as kind of like a scenic drive.
You're getting to know them, you're not rushing into things, it is should be smooth and easy and carefree and fun and I think that amongst all the noise and all the dating advice maybe what we really need is more emotional vulnerability and emotional intimacy and that definitely comes with time.
So today we are going to be talking about just that this approach to dating, the slow man's, the slow burn, low pressure first dates, all of those things and we are also going to bring on an incredible guest, somebody who knows so much more about this than I do and can provide us some insight.
Without further ado, let's get into it.
Today we have on the wonderful Moe, they are a licensed marriage and family therapist and the love and connection expert at Hinge to talk about this amazing topic.
Can you introduce yourself in a bit of your work?
Yeah, thank you. That was a beautiful introduction.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am what you said I am. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and the love and connection expert at Hinge.
Over the past decade I've been working with individuals, families, couples, on relationships.
So relationships has been my focus of my work and that spans the life journey.
It spans a variety of life experiences identified as non-binary transgender.
So I am a part of the LGBTQI plus community.
I use they, them where he and pronouns and yeah, I am excited about all the work I've been doing at Hinge.
Basically what I'm doing at Hinge is pairing all of that experience as a therapist and I am joining that with Hinge's data backed insights around dating and relationships to offer data's valuable advice on and off of the app about connection and creating meaningful partnership.
You want to know something interesting?
I didn't even even told you this.
I actually met my partner on Hinge.
So I'm really excited to get into this because I honestly didn't even, of course I knew how we met but I hadn't even clocked that there would be that late until just then.
So I'm excited to talk about this as well and not just obviously you just have this wealth of knowledge from having literal access to our dating data which is like insane.
But also this concept that you talk about a lot of the slow burn and slow mats which I think is wonderful.
Let's actually address the Hinge, Hinge's new data report first late because I get so many questions from people in their 20s being like what is the correct way to be dating right now?
Am I doing this right? Like I want to find the love of my life or I want something more casual and it feels like I just can't crack the code.
So can you explain some of the key findings from this report?
Absolutely. I am excited to hear more about how you're doing your partner's man.
And so we released very recently our new dating report called the LGBTQI Plus Date Report.
That stands for Data Advice Trends and Expertise.
And inside of that report we surveyed many queer data on our app and we found that 76% of queer Hinge data said that they wish that they had more positive healthy examples of relationships when they were growing up.
And so we know that there are often these gaps in representation for the queer community.
So we're hoping to feel some of that that space with more information, support, celebration of queer data.
And so I'm really honored to be in this role where I get to take part in that.
The number one topic that we found that queer Hinge data is wanting to learn more about is emotional intimacy.
So we think about the foundation of relationship and building long term connections.
I often think especially as a therapist emotional intimacy is central to that.
50% of queer Hinge data said that they want to learn how to build trust.
And so these core topics, emotional intimacy, trust, not throw in communication, collaboration, all of these things support the foundation of relationships.
And they're they're essential to what we're calling at Hinge slowments.
And I'm happy to get even more into that.
Yeah. Well, so I want to focus on this this first thing that you said, which is that so many people want more emotional intimacy.
And I do feel like the nature of dating in our 20s sometimes, like before I met my partner, it definitely felt like this is a transaction.
And especially like I was on the apps.
And I think I got kind of very cynical about it for a while, quite cynical because I was like everything just feels like there is either a want for like something physical immediately or pretty quickly.
Or it's like the same conversations again and again and again that never let go much deeper.
And I also think that the reason we kind of hold back emotionally sometimes when we are in that environment is because we have so many like options, right?
And we don't want to get vulnerable with the wrong person.
Does that like concern you at all like what capacity to build long-term relationships?
That's a really, really good question.
Yeah. What I'm hearing you saying is that there are all of these different worries or challenges that get in the way of us making meaningful connections very early on.
So in that first I was holding so much empathy and space as a therapist and I hope energetically you felt that.
I know I really did. I feel like I think your story in what you're saying relates to how many people are feeling or many of their many people's experiences, many people are coming to the table with worries about whether or not they'll be received in the relationship or that someone will like them back.
And so I think a lot of what prevents us from showing up authentically, being vulnerable, leaning in, having the seemingly challenging conversations is this desire to be received well.
So if we're worried that we'll be rejected, we'll often just prevent ourselves from leaning in.
So my advice would be for data to become really intimately aware of that voice that is creating these narratives inside of us.
It's often in our voice, but the narrative itself is important because if we're not aware that we're telling ourselves you're not enough or that we are afraid that we won't be enough or that we are afraid that we'll be rejected like like that time we were rejected at high school or whatever the narrative is then we can't go about changing it.
So I often take a narrative approach as a therapist, meaning that I work on shifting the stories that we tell ourselves that often form limiting beliefs that keep us from our goals.
And so the first step in that narrative therapy approach is to really get clear on what the narratives are.
So that's the first step.
And I want that to be people's homework.
I don't want you to do anything beyond that.
Just like focus on becoming aware of what those narratives are that are preventing vulnerability.
And I think when we talk about dating in this day and age just dating in general, sometimes we do mask our emotional intimacy or mask our need for emotional intimacy with physicality, right?
It's like, okay, I can speed up this relationship physically and it feels exciting and it feels new without ever actually having to connect with this person on a deeper level.
And I think that's kind of part of our inclination to just dive straight in to a new relationship.
Have you stayed in that yourself?
Like they need to not just say that like take your time like do whatever you want.
It's your body, it's your choice.
But sometimes like and I will say I noticed this in myself when I was dating it's like, okay, I don't want to be rejected by you.
Secondly, I don't want to get hurt by you and like show myself, show myself as a vulnerable individual.
So if we just like speed up this relationship and just like get straight to the point, like I'll never have to get hurt, is that something that you've seen?
Absolutely. I think what you're getting at is this inclination we have to jump into relationships when we're feeling like someone likes us back.
That's how I categorize it.
And I like to break this down a bit because I think that that's one reason why that's happening.
And then I think that there are two other very common reasons why that's occurring.
So I guess follow me if you will.
The first one being like it feels good to be liked back.
And I don't know how many people listening to the show can remember Teddy Pindagrass if you even know who that is.
If you do, you probably have baby baby boomer parents like I do.
But he has this show that's I'm sorry, he has this song that's called When Somebody Loves You Back.
And it's one of my my five old school songs, but the line goes, it feels good loving somebody when somebody loves you back.
And it's just so smooth the way he sings it.
But here it's accurate.
When you like someone, it just feels good.
So I think that that first kind of person that we're thinking about here is a person who desires their affection to be returned.
And so they dive in pretty quickly because they desire that feedback, those signs that they're that person's into them.
And I think what they really want is reciprocity.
And some of the ways in which we can slow the relationship down to get that reciprocity is to have those conversations about how the person, the other person feels and initiate those conversations rather than just kind of trying to ride the wave of emotions that kind of takes the relationship at top speed.
I think the second kind of person that shows up in my opinion is a person that has those fears of rejection that we were talking about.
So a person might show up with these fears around rejection.
But really what I think they want is some type of safety or security.
And the way that we can slow relationships down for people who are having the security need is to have those initial conversations pretty early on about where things are headed.
So that means we can maybe initiate a conversation and say, hey, so you know, at what point in your dating journey do you typically have conversations about what are we?
Like when do you have the what are we conversation?
It could be very general.
I do not suggest saying very early on what are we?
I am saying, have a general conversation that can slow things down and make it a co-creation around the relationship future versus leaving that up to chance or leaving it to being one person's responsibility.
And then the third person that I like to think about when I think about rushing in pretty quickly is the person who's just trying to go with the flow.
I think go with the flow people in this regard are worried about making things too complicated.
And often I think that they have a need around authenticity.
They want the other person to be themselves and they want to be received for being themselves.
And so by going with the flow, they think they're accomplishing this.
I think the risk here is that we can ignore our own authenticity and what we want in terms of pacing and timing because we're afraid to have a conflict or afraid to speak up.
So I typically encourage data to slow things down when they're experiencing this by having necessary conversations around the relationship through ease and compassion.
If we want there to be ease in the relationship and that's our primary desire, keep going with the flow in how you're having the conversation, be compassionate, be easy, be true in the conversation while still being vulnerable and open-hearted.
And I think that accomplishes what we're really trying to get at.
So I know I said a lot there, but I hope that everybody has their three people in mind and that they're checking where they are when they're in that.
You definitely said a lot, but you said a lot that was like all of it was so and you know what I really resonated with when you were saying that was also like the individual who was anxiously attached, right?
When there are signs that someone is pulling away and might be putting distance between you and them for whatever reason, maybe they are busy at work.
Maybe they are trying to protect themselves trying to not get hurt.
We tend to become quite clingy and we tend to like the more they try and pull away, the more we try and pull them closer, which inevitably ends up kind of backfiring, right?
Like it's, I also think that's part of the inclination to really speed up relationships is I want this person to fall in love with me as soon as possible so that we're out of this weird awkward stage where I don't feel like I can trust them, where I don't have a label, where I don't have commitment and all of those things leave me vulnerable to being hurt.
So I think at the end of the day like that all of it comes down to I don't want to be hurt, I want my needs met and perhaps I like the feeling of being loved back.
And so like let's get to that point as soon as possible and I also liked what you said about having a conversation.
So I'll talk about my partner Tom in this instance.
When we first met, I just had like a string of relationships in which there was no commitment.
And we talk about, you know, the slow man, which we'll get to in a second.
And there is a difference between going slow and also having absolutely no idea what is going on.
And like the timeline just being like what this night that ends all begins.
So you know what I mean. And I think that when I met him, I was so so aware and so worried about that happening again.
And I also kind of knew that if I was to be like, so what a way like within two days, there was a good chance that he was going to be like, okay, this girl has absolutely no chill and flea, which I totally got.
And so I think it was like around our fifth or sixth day.
And I actually remember where it was.
We were in Bondi in Sydney and we were eating sushi at a sushi train.
And instead of asking the question like what a way, I simply was like, this is what I'm looking for.
And I'm not asking you to tell me what you feel about that.
I'm not asking you to give me an answer.
I'm just saying like it's up to you.
This is, I'm going to give you the full information.
I'm looking for something serious.
I really like you. I think this is going amazingly well.
And if you don't think that way, if that's like not something that we're on the same page on, maybe like we should rethink.
And he didn't give me an answer straight away.
And yes, that made me anxious.
But he was like, he was like, listen, like I'm really up to seeing where this goes.
I obviously really like you, but I don't want to put too much pressure on it right now.
Is that okay? Can I think about it?
And I was like, yeah, of course you can think about it.
And you know, flash forward, we're still together and like very much in love.
So I think that what would you say to people who are like, if I ask too soon, if I want some form of confirmation, if I need some form of confirmation, the relationship might end.
What would you say to that?
Yeah. Well, one, your story is like very powerful because there, it's the imagery that's coming to mind is the idea that having that conversation didn't create this appeared on the relationship.
It wasn't like you offered what you want.
And then you were just done with him because he didn't want the same things.
There was like this comma, there's like this end that's interjecting, interjected.
And you keep going with the story.
And now you all been together.
And so if I'm offering any advice, it's really to do a lot more of what you did, which is to create that space for that conversation to allow it to be ongoing.
It doesn't have to be this one time thing.
I think that's often how it's presented in in the world or in movies that you kind of say, what are we?
People say yes or no. And that's it.
But it's not yes or no. It's like more great in that.
Like love is more complex than that.
I can't really relate to this story.
I can relate to the first time I asked my now wife to be my girlfriend.
And she was like, hmm, ask me again in the morning.
Like she feel like she was, she had clarity in the moment.
So she's like, ask me again in the morning.
And this actually came up again when I asked her to to marry me.
She was like, yes, but not right now.
And I was like, kind of devastated in the moment because I had only known it's a yes or no.
And so we went to therapy in one session that therapists is like, you know, you can just have a long engagement.
And that opened my mind to this comma where there was a period.
I'm thinking we're going to have to end our relationship and the therapist is going to tell me, yeah, you know, she's not the one.
And now we've been together.
Our dating anniversary is going to be 10 years come like October 31st.
And so it's been a long time of like commas and and and so my advice for anyone around having these conversations is that they really enrich the relationship.
They build this really strong foundation for your relationship future.
If you if you lean in, if you allow yourself to be vulnerable, and if you allow yourself to keep having the conversation because it's not a period.
I absolutely adore that.
Like the idea that the timeline needs to be linear and consecutive and like, okay, so we're dating and then you're my girlfriend or my boyfriend or my partner.
And then, okay, choose time.
And there cannot be any hesitation in that time.
And there cannot be any moments of needing to maybe slow things down or to actually think about things.
And I'm sure people are listening to this being like, no, you know, if you know, you know, no, I love your earlier example of how there needs to be boundaries, because you know, there could be scenarios where you know, there, you say there was no starter or no ends.
I love it. You say that because some relationships can feel like they don't have any time boundaries at all.
And I certainly think in those instances, it's important to get clear on if you're even working toward the same things, if you don't want the same things.
But in these scenarios, it's a matter of timing.
I think you'll know that by having the conversation.
No, exactly. I completely agree.
And also, I think that everyone's relationship is different, right?
And just because, and sometimes I think I, I'm scared for the people who experience that really fast intensity, like, hyper intense early days.
And the saying is always like, what burns, brightest burns out quickest.
I think that's the way to go.
And I think our society has very much sold us this idea of romantic love as being this like, when you know you know thing, you're immediately like, I saw this quote the other day.
It's like, when you see them in your future, you want the future to start right now.
This idea of like passion and intensity and like attraction.
And yes, of course, I want to move in with you.
And of course, I want to fall in love and let's have children.
But what are the benefits that you have seen?
What are the benefits for the longevity and the sustainability and the health of a relationship from embracing your slowments, from kind of slowing it down, not going with the flow, but just letting or taking the scenic route, let's say it that way.
Yeah, it's a beautiful and powerful pointy and question.
We think about longevity and relationships.
I really believe that the foundation of relationship is a, it looks a lot like friendship.
There's a lot of, there are a lot of those qualities there.
This good communication, this intimacy around emotionality, the safety, the space holding, the empathy.
We keep just keep going on and on.
That's what we need for our relationships to grow and expand over time.
Otherwise, we have relationships that are stagnant, it's conflictual, and stubborn, not growing, not changing.
So when we think about why slowments is so important, it's because it allows for us to take the time necessary to build those foundational skills, necessary for long-term partnership.
We were not born with a manual for how to be the best partner to our partners, let alone like ourselves.
We're learning self-love, usually all together, collectively.
And we were not even born with the manual for that.
So we don't have a manual for how to be the best partner.
So we are learning as we grow in these foundational things that we're building through slowments, but through taking our time, through prioritizing humor and building rapport, and focusing on levity in the relationship early on, give us a nice cushion for all the stuff that life throws at us along the way because your partner and you clearly have this foundation for communication really early on in your relationship, you could have that conversation and say, you know what, this is what I want.
And you felt comfortable to do so, and he felt comfortable being honest.
I think that is a show that you all have created the space for integrity in your relationship, and that is really essential for anyone to make it long-term.
So slowments really creates the space for us to do that intentional work without being distracted by where we're going to be 20 years from now, or getting really deep, really fast.
Oh my god, I absolutely, I'm just like noting my head to every single thing that you're saying, right?
Yeah, that's correct, that's correct.
I also think that you kind of want to know that you actually are compatible with them, right?
That's the other big thing.
I always say this on the show, but chemistry doesn't equal compatibility.
There's so many people that of course you're going to have like an amazing spark with, of course they're going to look like, of course you're going to be attracted to them, but is that the same as if this is what you want being able to build a life with them?
Also, like those, I don't know about you, but those early days in a relationship, I still think back on them and think they were so wonderful.
And having all those, yeah, having all those firsts and having all those moments of exploration and we're getting to know each other and every story he tells you or they tell you is a new story and it's just like, and it's so fun and you go to the movies together and they touch your leg for the first time and you're like a teenager again.
Like there's so much beauty and joy in enjoying those moments rather than trying to speed things up.
Like is that something that you found as well?
Oh, absolutely. There's one, there's this dreamy quality to how you're describing it.
I love it because I really have found with working with a lot of couples over the years, well actually a lot of people in all kinds of relationship configurations that those early memories, those early conversations, like all of that connection you're talking about really do serve as this cushion for the relationship later.
So if I imagine me sitting in a room with two people, two other people who are in this constant conflict in their relationship.
And I take a moment, they could have been arguing for 30 minutes in my office.
I take a moment and I just ask them to think about why they got together.
Like tell me why you all got together in the first place.
I might say something sassy like that to try to change the energy.
And usually the thought of why we got together in the first place brings smiles.
It brings laughter. It brings joy because quite often people associate so much positivity and warmth with those those early relationship beginnings.
So when we think about slum ants again, it's important that we're prioritizing savoring that capturing as much of
