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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for ourpsychology.
Helloeverybody, welcome back to theshow, welcome back to thepodcast, newlisteners, oldlisteners, whatever you are in theworld.
It is so great to have youhere.
You're specifically no one else back for anotherepisode.
Maybe it's your firstepisode.
I'm not sure butwelcome.
Welcome as we break down the psychology of our20s.
I think we all know the feeling of having an amazing conversation with a friend with someone you've just met with your partner in the minutes just floatby.
You feel so aligned and insync.
You'reexcited. You're like buzzing with thisenergy.
Like someone is kind of like put a mirror in front of us and is reflecting back all of these deep beliefs and funny anecdotes and stories making us feel seen and heard but also being like veryentertaining, maybedeep.
It is a certain kind ofhigh.
And one that I want all of us to have more often conversations really unlock some of the best things aboutus.
Our capacity to share knowledge and to learn to be vulnerable to show deep emotion to connect to be persuasive orlikable.
But while talking to others may seem like it should just be like one of the easiest things in the world that is not always thecase.
Whether you are naturally shy or dealing with socialanxiety.
You've kind of just lost a bit of your spark and simply need a reminder of what connects us toothers.
Sometimes we do need to be reminded and have a bit of a refresher on what makes a goodconversation.
I also think listening and communicating is something that we can all get betterat.
It is such a valuable skill to be able to talk to anyone you meet and not just talk but actuallyconnect, especially in our twenties when there are just so many new people to me and to get to know and the connections that we make now really influence and change our entirelives.
And this is the skill to have of themore.
It's so applicable to every area of your life to be a good conversationless to your datinglife, makingfriends, jobinterviews,networking.
So let's talk about ittoday.
How can we have betterconversations?
What makes some people so easy to talkto?
Why do we click more with them than others and what are theirsecrets?
How can we learn fromthem?
On top ofthat, what does this psychology and the science really say about goodconversations?
Is the secretlistening?
Is it bodylanguage? Is it specific questions orpauses?
There are entire careers that have been established on investigating this veryquestion.
So I have five tips for you today to have the best connections and conversations you have everhad, a bit of a formula for when it's tricky and essentially how we cancontrol, youknow, our interactions and the things that we can control about our interactions and our conversations to make them deep and meaningful andamazing.
So if you knowme, youknow, I love a bigol' chat and I am so pumped for this episode and I honestly learnt so much that I can apply to my ownlives.
So without furtherado, let's get intoit.
Good conversations don't always comenaturally.
That is afact. It's so interesting because we are never taught how to have goodconversations.
We are just kind of expected to pick it up along the way and get accustomed to the kind of rules ofengagement.
Make eyecontact. Find something we have incommon.
Don't stray too far from what'srelevant.
Small talkfirst. Sometimesthough, something just doesn't click even when we have done it allright.
I have even found that was some of my closest and longestfriends.
There will just be days where it's like trying to fit a triangle through acircle.
That can sometimes cause aspiral, youknow, this whole line of questioning around whether we're actually compatible or even that close or we even get along because being able to hold an interesting conversation is such a mark of inherent chemistry between twopeople.
What we don't always account for are the mental distractions that we are eachfacing.
The to-dolists. Spiraling off in the back of ourminds, the over stimulation or mental exhaustion that sometimes just makes us poorcommunicators.
So for our firsttip, I wanted one that it doesn't really matter what you have going on in the mentalbackground, you can still apply it because conversation isn't just aboutyou, it's about the otherperson.
Instead of trying so hard to keep this part alive by just feeling the silences and just sayingmore, tip numberone, ask more questions than youanswer.
People love talking aboutthemselves, but they love talking about themselves even more when they have something to talk about when they feel inspired and when they feel listento.
The easiest way to trigger all three of these things is to simply ask them a really goodquestion.
The best communicators and conversation lists are people who understand the two to oneratio.
For every question that they askyou, ask two of yourown, whether that's a follow-up question to a previous thing they've said or to kind of introduce a brand newtopic.
I know that sounds quite mathematical and veryclinical, but a conversation is very much like a scenic walk or like a very longdrive.
The best kinds are the ones with twists andturns, with newscenery, with little stops along theway, with newenvironments.
And they're also the best when somebody isdriving,right?
When somebody is guiding you through aconversation, through a newsituation, questions are a way to dothat.
And being intentional and deliberate about how much you are talking versuslistening, that isreally, reallyvaluable.
This is actually called a doorknob for psychologist researchingconversations.
Basically, a very important part of a conversation is providing somebody with something that they can grab onto that opens up a newspace.
So a good question is adoorknob.
And it isessentially, you've planted itthere, but it's a way for somebody else to feel like they are really accepted and guiding this conversation and that it's taking them to a newlevel.
The power of questions might seem quitesimple, but at its core the reason this is so effective comes down toattention.
A really great article published by Psychology Today put it reallywell.
Attention has its ownmagic.
We as humans crave recognition fromothers.
And there is a lot of experimental evidence that says being ostracized or ignored by others creates a pain that is every bit as real and intense as physicalinjury.
So to counteractthat, we should show people that we want to be interested in us and who we are interestedin, that we are paying attention tothem.
According to social attention holding potentialtheory, which you should reallyGoogle, it's veryinteresting.
This is a theory developed by the British psychologist PaulKilbert.
We often tend to compete with each other to have people pay attention tous.
And other people take notice we feelgood.
We enjoy all kinds of positivefeelings,confidence,belonging,acceptance.
You want to create those feelings in another person knowing that you are being heard by the other person often makes you like themmore.
That is the principle ofreciprocity.
And in a study conducted at Harvard in2017, what this team explored was that when you feel like someone is reciprocating your energy in a conversation when you apply the two to one ratio for every question they askyou, you ask themto.
It also actually makes them like youmore, which is definitely aperk.
So in thisstudy, they had a series of couples participate in a speed datingevent, people that didn't know eachother.
And they found a really positive correlation between somebody asking more questions and the likelihood of them securing a seconddate.
So it's very easy to see why questions are socharming.
They basically demonstrate your liking of somebodyelse, which they are more likely toreturn.
And also your wish to kind of build a mutual connection and understanding of theirexperiences.
But here's thething, questions are great and interrogation isnot.
That is the rule of thumbthere.
So on thatnote, there are some questions that are superior toothers.
Tip two is to learn what they are and use themmore.
This is especially important when we're meeting newpeople, trying to make newfriends, newconnections.
Obviously, there are some basic kinds of questions that we should learn toavoid, like yes or noquestions, or questions that essentially back people into a corner and make them do all thelegwork.
But even deeper thanthat, researchers have actually investigated what questions are best to ask somebodynew.
And this list is a bitstrange, but it includes questionslike, what are you feeling grateful for at themoment?
What's a big dream for the future that youhave?
If you could change anything about how you wereraised, what would itbe?
And even stranger oneslike, if you could wake up tomorrow and have gained oneability, what would you like it tobe?
Do you have a secret hunch about how you willdie?
Obviously, you are not going to settle up to somebody at a party that you've nevermet, and askthem, ohyeah, how do you think you're going todie?
Carrots in an orccancer?
Like, that'scrazy. But these questions are part of what is known as thefast,friends,protocol, orprocedure, which is essentially a series of questions you can find online that move from fairly basic to reallypersonal.
And the hypothesisis, any two strangers could ask each other these questions and form a closefriendship.
You may be familiar with some of these questions if you have heard about the 36 questions to fall in love because they are essentially the samething.
And the creator of thesequestions,Dr.
Aaron and hiswife, tested these questions in a lab to determine which were most effective andwhy.
So they got two people who had never met in a room and they had them answer a series ofquestions.
One series of questions imitated smalltalk.
Where did you go to highschool?
What did you do on theweekend?
Do you have anypets? And the other series ofquestions, other 36 questions that we now know and love that made that finallist.
They then followed up with the pairs in eachconditions, seven weekslater.
They went to them and theysaid, so did you end up wanting to be friends with thatperson?
Did you end up forming arelationship, forming afriendship?
What was amazing was that this study was in the90s.
This was pre-socialmedia.
These people had to really work pretty hard to find theirpartner.
And over50% of those who were in that fall disclosure group who had the 36 questions had formed such a connection and a bond during that period that they had eventually actually made contact or becomefriends.
50% of them and these people had never metbefore.
And that was how this list wasmade.
The reason why the researchers found these questions so effective is because they all contained three importantelements.
They weresurprising, they were personal and they weren't something that we immediately had the answerto.
So compare these two questions to see this foryourself.
How was your day versus tell me about something excited that happened toyou.
Which of these are you immediately going to be more excited toanswer?
Also note that we are basically asking the samething.
You could give the same answer to both of thosequestions, but one of them is moreinviting.
So be more creative with yourquestions.
Becurious. Search for what you actually want to know more about or even better what you can notice the other person really wants todiscuss.
Often they'll give us clues by returning to that point or that topic again andagain.
Show that other person that youcare.
Don't ask morequestions.
Ask betterquestions.Alright, let's move on to tipthree.
Numberthree, actually probably my favoritetip.
Stop, story topping and brightsiding.
So I picked up this tip from an amazing TED Talk by CelesteHeadley.
That is very aptlytitled, 10 ways to have a betterconversation.
It's a must listen if you want even more tips afterthis.
But she said something really profound in this TEDTalk.
It's only natural to want to share more about ourselves because that is where we think we find a spark or something meaningful andmutual.
But the worst way we can do that is by thinking about a conversation iscompetition.
Hearing someone's story about their breakup or their promotion or their unfortunate commute and coming back with our own story that has five times the amount of plot twists and surpriseturns.
It is never thesame. Your situation is always going to be different and it doesn't make them feelhurt.
It's not aboutyou. Don't take thatmoment.
Conversations are not a promotionalopportunity.
Again, sometimes it is our way of relating toothers.
I think people withADHD, forexample, this can be especially difficult because over sharing and relating something to somebody else's experiences is sometimes a technique or a different way of expressingempathy,right?
Especially for people with ADHD orautism.
It's their way ofsaying, I see your experiences somuch.
I'm so appreciative of them that I took the time to relate it to my ownexperiences.
Now we have something incommon.
That's a nicething. But I think realizing that maybe that's not how they interpret that is important and just provide acaveat.
Before you jump into your ownstory, say somethinglike, I know it's not thesame.
I've kind of been there in a differentway.
Ohwow, that's a really interestingstory.
It reminds me ofthis. It's not as bad as what happened toyou.
You're just really showing them that you're not trying to want upthem.
You're trying to relate tothem.
And kind of finishing your story with a question means that it's not about you trying to want upthem.
It's about you trying to extend and continue the conversation rather than cut itoff.
This doesn't mean that you don't contribute and build on a conversation or try and find some mutual ground just that you recognize how you can do that in ways that still let the other person feel seen andheard.
The same goes for brightsighting.
So this is a term that was created by an amazing author called Barbara and Reach who talks about how when she was diagnosed withcancer, everybody kind of approached her with what she called in her words recklessoptimism,right?
She hadcancer. She was in hospital and they would ask about her day and she would say it wasterrible.
Itsucked. And they'd belike,well, youknow, on the brightside,X,Y,Z.
Well think about it thisway.
Again, it's a natural inclination for someone to tell you how awful their day was and for you to want to encourage them or lift theirmood.
Sometimes it is simply an emotionalreflex, a form ofempathy, but you knowwhat, it's not always helpful and it really shuts things offimmediately.
It'sjust, youknow, just buy out best intentions even if things areawkward.
It can come off as you wanting to move on and ignore their obvious attempt to talk about something that is vulnerable ordeeper.
There is nothing wrong with just saying that is reallyawful.
How are you feelingnow?
Orwell, that really sucks what happened after that and letting them get back to the positive side of things if they wantto.
Letting people feel shit sometimes and not needing to be their therapist or their hype man is also a really incredibly powerful way to feel closer because emotional acknowledgement and respect is such a significant form of platonic and even romanticintimacy.
Like,yes, we feel safe enough around each other that you can let me pick behind the curtain that you invited mein.
You don't always have to beon.
You don't always have to be happy and I'm still going to be there forthat.
And we can still have a conversation that isn't necessarily cheery and surfacelevel.
Okay. So a quick refresh of what we've spoken about sofar.
Numberone, ask more questions for every one question askedto.
But numbertwo, not all questions are madeequal.
So focus on those that aresurprising, personal anddifferent.
And numberthree, no bright signing or story topping if you can helpit.
I have two more tips foryou.
Which course we have to talk about technology somewhere in this episode and the impact that our phones have on ourconversations.
But also how your confidence in part determines conversationalsuccess.
The energy that you put out is what you receiveback.
So we are going to talk aboutthat.
And so much more after this shortbreak.
You know that feeling when you're telling the story that you've kind of been waiting to tell allday, you literally can't keep it in and you're midway through you're talking to like a group of three or four people and like half of them suddenly turn away and start talking to somebody else or go on theirphones.
It immediately makes you feel like you should be quiet and no one wants to listen toyou.
No one likes to feel thatway.
No one likes to have somebody else's lack of engagement shoved in theirface.
And our biggest culprit in these situations is ourphones.
So numberfour, our rule for betterconversations.
When you get the urge to pick up yourphone, ignore it for just another five minutes and spend that time being really focused on what yourfriend, yourboyfriend, yourgirlfriend, your new acquaintance issaying.
It doesn't mean that you can't grab your phone in five minutes if somebody has emailed you but ignore that initialurge.
And often what you will find is that you quickly become reengaged in the conversation pretty quickly when you put technology off limits for just a briefmoment.
Youknow, let's behonest, there is a difference between in person and onlineconversing.
One of them is definitely more fulfilling than the otherone.
Anyone who has ever for example used a dating app or been long distance with their partner will confirm that for you in person conversationsTrump.
And they have a really extraordinary power to excite ourbrains, especially when they have face to face because our youknow, our brain is so sociallywired.
And so our neurons are very sensitive to face to faceengagement.
When somebody is standing in front ofus, making eyecontact, showing positive nonverbal cues that they are interested that they arelistening, this rapidly activates reward systems in ourbrains.
But our phones can break that trance and they pull us away with their kind of like a lure of instant gratification and many of their addictiveproperties.
But youknow, not only is it not a good habit to getinto, to not always fulfill the urge to grab yourphone, it also just immediately cuts off the kind of connection that you're building withsomebody.
It immediately brick walls and stone wallsthem.
That little dopamine hit that you're getting from your phone is I just think not worth it and it sounds sosimple.
It probably doesn't even needmentioning, but your phone can wait when you're having a goodconversation.
You know that tick-tocknotification, that like newInstagram, whatever itis, it's still going to be there intwo,three, five minutes when this person has been able to finish their train ofthought, when there is a naturalpause, when they finished responding to yourquestion.
And you might even find that once you fight thaturge, remember it's only fiveminutes, there's actually a whole new deeper plane of conversation that opens up in front ofyou.
You know the other thing that I want to say onthis, why I'm like such a big believer and like putting your phone away when you're really wanting to connect withsomebody, is that it really does teach us the distinction between the long term pleasure and enjoyment of a good conversation versus the instant gratification of ourscreens.
I think fighting the impulse to grab our phones also teaches us a valuable difference between the kind of value and satisfaction we get from those two different forms ofcommunication.
Youknow,yeah, a deeply engaging chat can sometimes feel a little bit arduous or tricky in the moment if you're maybe running out of things to say or if you'restuck, but choosing to push through that and find common ground or just sit with each other often leaves us with the greatest sense of comfort in the long term compared to thedopamine, the tiny spike or head of serotonin that our brains are going to giveus.
It's like the impact of eating healthy versus like the yumminess of a chocolate bar that's going to make us crash lateron.
So if you're truly committed to having betterconversations, put your phone in yourbag, put it in a differentroom.
Sometimes me and my boyfriend do this thing called phone free eveningsbecause, youknow, we've noticed that it's normally at crucial moments that we feel the need to pull out ourphones.
It's when we've hit a low and we should be pushingforward.
It's when the other person is expressing something about their day and just needs to rant and the other one sees it as an opportunity to kind of scroll Instagram on orwhatever.
No,no, silence them having along, youknow, rant or vent is not an invitation for you to do your ownthing.
It is an invitation to reallylisten.
One finaltip, tipfive.
Here wego. This one is uniquely about us and onlyus.
Let go of worrying about how you are comingacross.
A lot of us spend a lot of time evaluating ourselves or thinking about what this other person is thinking whilst we'reconfessing.
And ingeneral, this really interferes with connecting with others because the focus is on something completely unrelated to the topic athand.
It also creates some of those awkward moments where you're so busy picking yourselfapart, scrutinizing what you're wearing or your facialexpression, whether you're engaged ornot, you actually end up missing what they're saying and then they turn to ask you a question and you just goblank.
I've had that happenbefore, there's nothingworse.
Honestly, we're probably just concerned with how we're coming off that we're getting two on our own heads that actually their opinion might change over us because we are so kind ofdetached.
We kind of our eyes glazeover.
Here's an interesting psychological phenomena for you that may set you at ease and it's called the likinggap.
The liking gap basically says that people like us a lot more than we think theydo.
When we first meet someone we tend to assume theworst, but in this research paper published in 2018 out of CornellUniversity, when researchers put two people together to chat and then afterwards got them to rate how they felt about themselves in thatconversation, how they thought the other person thought about them and how they thought about the otherperson, they tended to rate us higher and themselveslower.
But we were doing the samething,right?
The other person was doing the exact samething.
Nearly everyone wasthinking,yeah, I'm coming off super weird in thisconversation, but they're doinggreat.
So the irony there is definitely not lost onus.
The evidence really showed you're doing better than youthink.
You're actually pretty darn good at making a great firstimpression.
Researchaside, when you find yourself getting into that self-analysisparalysis, I always say it can feel like you're at the back of your brain when you want to be right at thefront,right?
Reallypresent. You want to put all that energy into that otherperson.
And sometimes we can't helpit.
If you really want to impress thisperson, you're battling a moment of socialanxiety.
It can just come overus.
Butremember, confidence is the bestcostume.
Genuinely, if you needed thereminder, no one can read yourmind.
No one can see your anxious thoughts if you just project utmost confidence in yourself and put all the attention and focus back onthem.
I have talked about this tip so many times that if you are aregular, you won't be new tothis.
But the thing that has helped me more than anything else in these times in particular when I'm feeling super anxious about what somebody else is thinking is picturing this big golden orb in mychest.
And thisorb, this goldenbubble, makes me magnetic and it makes me alluring and confident to anyone that ittouches.
And with eachbreath, the orb just gets bigger and bigger before it begins to surround and encircle everyone aroundme, including the person I'm talkingto.
Andhonestly, it works every time people shift and respond to how you are feeling aboutyourself.
And if you have a mindset and an attitude of self assurance and interest andcalm, that is what they willsee.
They will see what you decide to showthem.
So take a deep breath for asecond, activate your orb and justremember, thinking aboutothers' perceptions of you in a conversation iscounterproductive.
If you want other people to likeyou, to respectyou, to valueyou, really listening to what they have to say and building a connection through attention is so much more powerful than youknow, anything else that you can do than any witty story than any analysis of all your small behaviors andactions.
Some final and lightning round tips for you guys to have betterconversations.
Don't be afraid ofsilence, goodconversations, also need a break just likeus.
Mirror bodylanguage, this is scientifically proven as a way of showing empathy because mimicking how somebody is sitting or physically reacting to us signals their mirror neurons and makes them feel more connected tous.
Relax yourface, pull up yourchin, open youreyes.
This is also a way to show attention and intrigue through facial expressions and bodylanguage.
And don't go all in to acertain, don't try and create artificial intimacy because you think that that that might make you closerquicker.
Sometimes it backfires so people feeloverwhelmed.
So approach from a slow boneperspective, you don't have to play all your cardsnow, you do havetime, you'll get to know them all lateron, just take itslow.
Andfinally, if the conversation is dyingout, letit, it'sokay, conversations are likedating.
Sometimes they're not all going to be theone, so it's okay to stepback, excuse yourself to the bathroom and start again with somebodyelse.
I really hope that you enjoyed thisepisode, I hope that you caught something out ofit, whether it was cool scientific fact or tip or just a boostingconfidence.
I really enjoyed speaking aboutthis, I love talking topeople, hopefully you can apply these tips in your ownlife.
And if there is somebody that you think needs to hear thisepisode, please feel free to share it withthem.
Or leave a five starreview, whatever you will be listening rightnow.
It only takes a few seconds and itreally, really helps the show to grow and I just really appreciateit.
If you have an episodesuggestion, the easiest way to let us know is to just DM me on Instagram at that psychologypodcast.
And if you want to see behind thescenes, you can follow me at Gemma'sSpeg.
And until nexttime, staysafe, bekind, be gentle to yourself and we will talksoon.
What's upy'all? Janice Torreshere.
And I'm AustinHankwitz.
We're the hosts of Mind theBusiness, Small Business SuccessStories, a podcast presented by I Heart Radio's Ruby Studios and Into ItQuickBooks.
Join us as we speak with small business owners about the tools they use to turn their ideas intosuccess.
From finding that initial spark of entrepreneurship to organizing payments andinvoices, we've got youcovered.
So follow and listen to Mind theBusiness, Small Business Success Stories on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get yourpodcasts.
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