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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our
20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the
psychology of our 20s.
Let's be real for a second.
The job market, the job hunt, the economic climate, all of the above have gotten so tough
in recent years.
If you're in your 20s, you're probably feeling the pressure and the impact of this more than
any other age group.
It is so much more difficult than it was for our parents generation.
Even a few decades ago to find a job that can pay our bills but is also fulfilling or
to even find entry level opportunities in our chosen industry, much less a stable career
path.
I think this experience of struggling with unemployment and continuous job hunting, the pressure
to have it all figured out, the pressure to have some fulfilling rewarding job lined up,
some fulfilling rewarding career is really feeling increasingly impossible in this day
and age.
I wanted to talk about it and I wanted to help you understand the science behind not only
why it's so difficult but why there is so much shame and frustration and at times even
anger and resentment when it comes to job hunting in our 20s.
I think that this topic definitely doesn't get enough of a spotlight and I'll admit
I've even fallen into a bit of complacency myself.
I have taken my own circumstances for granted because I was really lucky to fall into something
I loved quite early on.
I don't think that is the case for everyone.
I really think that a more universal experience is one of struggling to find your professional
place in the world early on in your career and just recently I've had so many friends
going through redundancies and periods of unemployment, constant rejections and it's
emotionally challenging.
I can see them really struggling with it.
So much of our self esteem and our self concept is tied to what we do for work.
It is tied to how we make money.
It is tied to our sense of purpose.
So when that is taken away from us or it's unavailable no matter how hard we try, no
matter how many job applications we put out, we feel firstly quite aimless but secondly
like we have somehow failed in a way that so many others have been successful.
We think there must be something wrong with us.
We make assumptions about what other people are thinking about us that we're lazy, that
we like discipline that we aren't skilled.
When there are so many other explanations for unemployment and struggling with job searching,
struggling with your career during this decade.
So today we are going to talk about the psychological impact of job hunting, unemployment, setbacks
and rejections in our 20s.
How we can manage our emotional well being must also staying focused and keeping optimistic
about opportunities that come our way.
We're also going to talk about concepts like bridging jobs, why there is no shame in doing
something that you don't necessarily love for a paycheck, why it's okay to not have
a five year plan, the myth of the dream job and how to find your purpose during a very
confusing period of life.
I strongly believe that when we talk openly about these situations, we reduce a lot of
the invisible shame we're feeling that I think forces us to keep things to ourselves
when they would become so much easier and lighter out in the open.
Trust me if you're going through this right now, I really cannot express how many people
have reached out to me with similar situations, how many friends of mine are going through
this, some of them even in their late 20s, early 30s and even broader than that, how every
single trend is pointing to this being more difficult for this generation, to this being
harder.
It is not just you, I promise, so we're going to slow it down, we're going to look at
the psychology, we're going to talk all about it and hopefully make you feel a little
bit better about your situation.
So all of that and more after this short break.
We talk about it a lot on this show, but there is definitely this unspoken pressure in our
20s to know what we are doing with our lives.
There is an emphasis on having a five year plan, on having a dream job, financial independence,
job security, that can feel really suffocating if that just hasn't been your path so far,
or perhaps you just don't want it to be.
I think I will continue to repeat this for as long as I can, but this decade, our 20s,
is a period of flux and that is both a blessing and a curse.
It is this time in our life where there is so much available to us, but all of our timelines,
the timelines of yourself and everybody around you is splintering.
For the first like 18, 19 years of our lives, we were in school.
We are typically doing the same things in the same environment with the same ultimate
goal as everybody around us, which is to graduate before we kind of get stuck into the real
world.
It is very structured, it is very uniform, very repetitive for each and all of us.
When we walk across the stage, when we graduate, suddenly after 18 years of always having
somebody tell us what is next, what the requirements of moving forward are, we have agency and choice
and freedom to choose where we want to go, who we want to be, and the goal post kind of
disappear.
Maybe you do end up going to university and the goal post are kind of reinstated, but
only for another three or maybe five years.
At some point, school is going to kind of spit you out into the world and you have to kind
of figure out a way of operating in this new environment, one that I do think the education
system doesn't really get us prepared for.
It's not just about grades and assignments anymore, you have to put into practice everything
that you've learned and there will definitely be a learning curve and it's only natural
to be struggling with that.
This whole period in the field of psychology is known as emerging adulthood and the word
emerging there is really important because I think it highlights how transitionary this
period is.
It is not the final chapter.
It is the first chapter in a very long life in a very long career, hopefully.
I think that there is not one thing about our career during this decade that is permanent.
Because the jobs that you're applying for, for example, they could not exist in like
20 years.
The unpaid internships, eventually you won't have to do them anymore.
The terrible bosses, one day you will quit that job and you will find something more meaningful
and purposeful.
The job interview is the confusion, eventually that will go away.
Eventually it will become more clear to you what you want to do, where you want to be,
who you want to be.
But all of those things that we really struggle with, they are to be expected.
I'm a kind of first starting out.
I think the misconception that makes us feel really terrible is that this will be like
this forever, right?
We are always going to feel this lost.
We are always going to feel this aimless, this purposeless.
We're always going to be in this state of striving for an opportunity.
But secondly to that, that it is an us problem, not a societal one.
So when I was researching this episode, I came across two articles that were super enlightening
when it came to this exact point.
Job hunting and a lack of success that many of us are experiencing is a societal problem
rather than an individual one.
So the first article was published by the BBC last year and it essentially said nearly
all young workers, so people between 18 and 30 are struggling to cope with economic uncertainty
but also the instability of the job market.
And what this article said was that about 91% of us are experiencing or have experienced
at least one instant of stress around our future career and our future job insecurity or
security in the last six months.
And what 91% of us in our 20s essentially are feeling very much unstable and unsure of
what is next.
A lot of this also came down to three large scale stresses.
A, fewer entry level jobs, that is a proven fact there are less opportunities for people
who are junior or just starting out to get their foot in the door.
E, increasing competition for a smaller pool of opportunities, it's not just that there
are more people who want a smaller amount of jobs but that those people are more educated,
more proficient, have done more internships, have more job experience than ever before.
And C, there is this rising cost of living which means that even if you do get one of those
coveted entry level jobs, even if you do surpass all those dozens, hundreds of others,
you still might not be able to pay your bills.
That is one component of why this is so increasingly stressful.
The second article was from Time magazine and it was titled You're Not Imagining It,
Job Hunting is Getting Worse.
I'm going to leave a link to this article in the description because of this describes
your experience you need to read this article.
And what they explain is that the tightening kind of labor market, not to make this like
an economic forecast rather than a psychological one but we'll get to the psychology I promise,
essentially the tightening labor market has triggered two changes.
Firstly, because a lot of companies have really scared about a recession, they take a lot
more time to choose people that they're hiring because they want to make sure that they
are choosing the right person.
Something that we may not realize is that we obviously know it costs money to employ people
but it actually costs also a significant amount of money to find the people that we want
to employ.
And so companies are just getting a lot more stingy and a lot more cautious.
I have heard stories of people doing like three or four levels of interviews for entry
level jobs.
My friend Emily, she is applying for jobs in the public service in Australia at the moment.
We went through three interviews for an entry level position and she didn't hear anything
for two months and eventually they'd like offered her the job but she was like, it's
been two months.
I can't wait for that long.
So they're kind of like back to the drawing board.
Companies are just taking longer.
They're making you jump through more extravagant and extreme hoops.
The second element of this is that because the job market is becoming more limited, more
experienced and educated people are now applying for the kind of jobs that used to be reserved
for individuals like fresh out of uni.
You know, there has been mass redundancies across tech, across so many other industries
that has meant that people with masters of degrees and multiple bachelor's degrees who
have five to ten years of experience, they're getting replaced by AI, they're getting
let go of and they have to start again along with people like you and I, people in their
twenties who are starting out for the first time.
I know that this has taken a very pessimistic turn.
I am sorry, this is not the like empowering pump up speech that I wanted for this episode
but all of this is just to say, I promise it's not just you, it is systematic.
It is just as hard for so many other people out there.
I'm hoping that that is a comforting statement to hear, right?
That you might be putting a lot of pressure on yourself.
You might be feeling terrible that it's you that you don't have what it takes, that you're
being lazy, that no one likes you, that it's a personal thing when actually across the
board people are struggling with this.
It's a really hard time to be new to the job market and unemployed.
So there are some really tangible, real and true psychological and emotional consequences
that come with being stuck in this limbo jobless period.
You know, perhaps taking on bridging roles to make money, not fully satisfied or sure
when one of these countless interviews or resumes is going to hit the desk of the right
person.
It's a waiting game and I'm sure you know this already but there are a lot of ways that
this bleeds into our wellbeing, into our state, our mental state essentially and I want
to talk about four of the main ways that we can see this in our lives and how to address
it before it gets out of hand.
Firstly, job hunting, it is a lot of effort from building your resume to finding jobs whose
criteria and requirements you match to cover letters, to interviews, to references, sometimes
most of the time doing this for multiple opportunities at a time with little payout that
is bound to get exhausting.
There comes a point where we hit a war and it's actually called the law of diminishing
return.
Essentially what it means that at some point no matter how much we put into an activity,
say a job hunt, the output getting a job doesn't change.
At a certain level there was only so much effort we can put in before we become disheartened,
before we can't give any more and we're not getting the outcome that we want.
And this can lead to two distinct feelings, resentment and pessimism.
Resentment firstly because we feel like the system is unfair, we feel like we deserve
some reward for what we're putting in, how much we want it, how much harder we're working
than other people who are getting these opportunities seemingly easily.
Like I know it's not a good feeling and it's a very shameful feeling but it is a feeling
that we do experience seeing other people get the opportunities that we wanted and feeling
kind of upset about it.
When things just keep going the same way, when we are not hearing back, when we're not
getting the response that we want, we develop a mental attitude or an expectation that
it's going to continue much the same.
Getting into that mental rut, it can be really hard to climb out of because your efforts
and your hard work that is required to keep going are not being reinforced in as humans,
we do really thrive off of reinforcement.
There does come a point where our expectations are going to be dashed, our hopes are going
to be in the dumpster and it's just going to feel like there is absolutely no hope for
us.
I totally get it and I want to say that sometimes though it is just a numbers game.
It is just about responding to the adverts responding to the calls and forgetting about
it.
I had a friend who says post and ghost, I think that's a great way to put it.
She is an actor and I know it's a little bit different but the other day I was asking
her about this advert that she went for.
I was like, hey, how did that like phone advert go?
She was like, what are you talking about?
You know, you want to know what it is and she was like, you don't think about it unless
you get a positive response because it keeps your expectations low so that you don't keep
spiking your expectations when you think that this one is going to work out.
You think that this one is going to be the one and then it's not and you fall back into
that failure mindset, you continue to be feel like you are being negatively punished
for your efforts.
You feel like there is no hope.
The second reason job hunting is so hard comes down to the constant rejection.
Maybe you are lucky enough to get the first job you apply for but that is the exception
not the rule.
Most of us will receive about six to ten rejections before we get a job offer according to Forbes.
Opposition is such a heavy emotion.
It is such a primal state because we are hardwired to avoid it at all costs.
Projection on a very basic level signifies a lack of approval from those whose opinion
we value and when that is repeated, we begin to internalize a number of secondary assumptions
about ourselves that we are not good enough, that we are not as intelligent as we thought,
we're not capable, that we are failures.
And that hurts our ego.
Our ego is related to our confidence.
When our confidence is low, that can really interfere with what jobs we apply for, how
secure we come across in interviews because we begin to believe that these rejections are
in some ways defining us that somehow these other people must know that we are getting
desperate.
They must know that all these other companies rejected us.
And that kind of begins to overwhelm what we do actually bring to the table our wonderful
qualities, our wonderful assets.
I think it's even worse when you just don't get any feedback at all.
You don't receive anything.
Honestly, the places that just go to you are awful, especially when you are young and
especially when they just don't have the empathy to remember what it was like to be in your
position when you could really benefit from the feedback.
You could benefit from having some closure and not still thinking about that job in two
months, not still thinking you had a chance.
Two things to counteract the rejection treadmill that it sometimes feels like we're on.
Firstly, after each disappointment, do something kind for yourself.
So there is this brilliant article published by Psychology Today that I'll also link in
the description and this doctor, her name is Dr. Gina Schneider.
She said something so perfect about this.
Looking for a job can feel like a punishing experience.
We look at the prize that is getting the job as the only reward for all the work.
Instead, you need to provide ample rewards for all your job hunting efforts.
Apply for the job, then give yourself a break to have fun.
Go through your fourth interview, take a friend to dinner, go and go for a walk, get out
of your head, tell yourself you will reward yourself with a small treat after preparing
for a lengthy interview, after finishing that ruling cover letter or case study.
I think rewarding yourself for the effort, not the outcome helps you maintain that motivation
and that momentum that you really need.
It's also valuable to remember that it's not always about you.
Of course we are at the center of our universe, that's how it is.
We are the only person who we truly can understand and even then we don't really understand
ourselves fully, but it's our reality that we are most aware of.
And so we tend to think every failure or rejection must relate back to something that was
wrong with us, something that we were lacking that we did incorrectly.
Instead, I want you to consider this concept or this kind of like idea I came across called
the mustard effect.
So the mustard effect came from the story of a really talented actor who went to meet
with the director for a new movie.
He was perfect for the role.
He was like the leading man of the day, super attractive, talented, perfect like resume,
but right as he got to the restaurant, the director he was meeting spilled mustard on
his favorite shirt.
And he was so frustrated, he was so distracted that he passed on the actor.
He didn't offer him the movie.
You can be the most amazing candidate and sometimes the recruiter is just in a bad mood.
There is just someone a tad bit more experienced than you and something really niche that they
need.
Somebody spills mustard.
So try not to take it too personally.
Sometimes it's not even like the disappointment and the exhaustion of the constant efforts and
the let downs.
It's the simple fact that not having a job means we can't do certain things that truly
bring us joy and that feel our cup because we simply don't have the money for them.
When you are watching all of your friends buy new clothes, go out for dinner, book vacations,
that can't be a very nice feeling as much as we try and suppress it and me isn't especially
loud emotion.
So I don't blame you.
It's hard to see everybody else living perhaps a life of ease while you're still struggling.
You know, this day and age, it is the age of social comparison.
Of course we are going to compare paychecks.
Of course we are going to compare career progression, job titles or lack thereof because all of
those things serve as proxies for what we see as progress.
Our jobs also bring a sense of purpose and productivity.
Like we can say we're doing something that our degrees were worth something, those internships,
those extra curricula, those, you know, stupid jobs that we didn't want to do.
It was all worth it because we have something to do with our days and when we don't have
that, there is definitely a level of shame and stigma.
I think we implicitly feel we're adults.
This is what we should be doing.
This is what we will always taught we should be doing.
We should have a job.
That's how we stay useful in society, especially in a society where it's our output that really
counts.
So I read this story about how in Japan, businessmen will actually get dressed up in, you know,
in the morning in their suits, in their ties, they'll take the train to the city, they'll
leave their apartments and they'll just sit in the park all day until they return home
because they don't have jobs.
And it's not that they're being productive with that time.
It's that the shame of not having a job, the shame of being unemployed causes them to
want to keep up the facade for those around them.
And I think that's not too dissimilar to what you may be experiencing, shame, a sense
that you are lazy or that you're going to be judged.
Obviously, you may not be going as far as to put on a business suit and go into it in
the park all day, but there is perhaps a tendency to conceal things, a tendency to perhaps,
I don't know, not want to reveal to your friends or your family that you are struggling,
how hard it has been, how many rejections you have gotten, how lost you feel.
I also heard this from a lot of friends of mine who are currently on the job hunt looking
for a cool thing to do, that there is this tension, this kind of pool between wanting
to simply get a job, not wanting to get left behind, wanting to make some money, but
also wanting to be happy in what you're doing.
And not just settle for the first job that comes your way, it feels like a really significant
choice, and that is the confusion that also comes along with this.
We spend ages trying to find a job, or only to have doubts about what might be right for
us.
I think job hunting is hard enough, but when you add purpose and mission and ambition
into the picture, it gets even more complicated.
So we're going to take a short break, but when we come back, we're going to kind of discuss
how we can discover purpose, but also looking for that paycheck, and also how you can
lessen the pressure or the mental load of job hunting and the shame when it isn't going
your way, all of that and more after this short break.
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One of my favorite like tumblr instagram, that kind of genre of post that I've ever seen,
which was quite popular back in the day but still feels very noteworthy, is this post
that recounts when famous actors and public figures first got their big break.
Oprah for example got fired from her first reporting job at 23.
Harrison Ford, he was a carpenter at 30 Morgan Freeman, he wasn't in like a major movie
until he was 52.
I'm sure that a lot of us have seen this post but I think that every time I see it, it
is such a simple reminder that the stakes feel really high right now.
They feel really significant in our 20s to get it right but there are so many paths to
your dream destination and so many parts of the journey that you just cannot foresee in
the moment that you are in right now.
I think uncertainty is part of the 20 something package, it's part of the deal, not knowing
what comes next, feeling like you have these big dreams and not knowing what to do with
them, feeling like there are other dreams you have to put on hold out of necessity,
that is all kind of part of what this decade promises.
So firstly I want you to take the pressure off a little bit, you don't need to be searching
for or working your dream job right now to be happy.
In fact I personally don't think that the dream job even exists, there is so much hype
around this idea that if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life, I think
that neglects the role of practicality, just needing something to give you a paycheck.
Having those intermission periods where you are in transition, like after graduation or
when you are making a career jump or after getting fired, it is okay to be working casual
jobs in the meantime, it is okay to not necessarily know what comes next.
I think this idea of the dream job makes a lot of us feel like if we are not totally sold
and in love with what we are doing as a career we are bound to be miserable, but it doesn't
consider that life is more than work and that sometimes you don't really know what you
want to do until much later in life when you have had experience and maybe that is what
this time is right now, it is about experience, it is about applying for jobs you never saw
yourself doing and maybe doing them for a couple of months, doing them for a year and
just seeing where it takes you.
A perspective that I kind of love as an alternative to the dream job concept is this Japanese
idea of Ikigai.
So that kind of roughly translates to reason for being.
I was introduced to this concept through a book that was written about a couple of years
ago by these two authors and in the process of writing this book they went to this small
town in the Okinawa district in Japan and it is what is known as a blue zone.
So there are a bunch of blue zones around the world.
These are essentially locations where the population in those areas are some of the happiest
and some of the healthiest and who live the longest.
And what they found was that amongst all these kind of like elderly Japanese people all
of them had a sense of Ikigai, they had a sense of being.
Instead of looking for one thing that is going to light your fire, instead of looking for
a job that just pays you a lot of money or trying exorbitantly hard to just find the
one thing that you absolutely love doing and nothing else at all, focus on asking yourself
for specific questions.
What do you actually like doing?
What do you actually enjoy?
What are you good at doing?
What do you receive praise for?
What do people tell you that you have a special knack for?
What does the world actually need and what can you get paid for?
So if we have like the example of being a psychologist that might be your dream job.
Right now it's probably going to take like quite a few years of study to get there.
Probably a lot of rejections, probably a lot of setbacks.
And the interim, you still need to make money, you still want to be doing something.
So think about how you can fulfill your Ikigai in other ways.
I'm guessing if you want to be a psychologist, you're probably really good at talking
to people.
You enjoy talking to people.
They connect with you.
They open up.
It feels fulfilling.
I think the world needs more people who can hold empathy and space for others.
But right now you can't get paid for it in the specific way that you would like.
But if you were a grocery store clerk or a disability support worker, if you worked
in customer service, you can still utilize your unique abilities and gain those vital
skills, even if it's not your dream destination.
You know, personally before I did this full time, you know, a lot of people might assume
this is my dream job.
I didn't even know this existed three years ago.
And before I stumbled into podcasting, I've spoken about how I worked in consulting.
And especially I did health consulting and big mental health programs for the government
was something that I really focused on.
It was not my dream job.
But besides that, there was so many things that I took from it that have made my current
career so much more fruitful.
Obviously I spoke a lot about mental health during that time, but it also made me really
proficient in academic research.
It made me really proficient in time management in science communication, in writing applications
for grants and things like that.
And I'm so grateful for that now.
I think I firmly believe that our 20s are not our time to be perfect, especially when
it comes to our careers and our professional lives.
It's a time for experimentation.
It's a time for discovery.
Your purpose might not be entirely clear to you right now, but that is what this period
is for.
It's getting to see what's out there.
Doing jobs that might not be high on your list of things that you thought you would like
doing, applying for those random positions that you've never considered and just seeing
what happens.
I know that it's very easy to compare to people who seemingly have it all, who are already
looking like they're over-successful, but that is again the exception not the rule.
Another component of the job hunt of unemployment in our 20s is taking on roles where you are
just going to have to swallow the toad.
You are going to have to start from the bottom and maybe do things that you don't necessarily
want to do, but it can lead you to something bigger.
When you look at those people you might see online who you think, oh my god, they have
it all together.
What do they do differently?
What do they do that I didn't do?
You have to remember that they might just be a few steps ahead of you.
Or they may have had networks.
They may have had shortcuts.
Or they may have done these tedious, unfulfilling jobs that you're doing now that are actually
really valuable because they give you that work ethic that doesn't disappear, the older
you get, and they give you those connections, they give you that experience.
You just have to start somewhere, even if it's not where you imagined yourself starting.
Some final tips for managing both the stress and the practicality of job hunting in our
20s.
Firstly, find someone else who is going through the same thing and meet up with them to job
hunt, to write cover letters, to write applications together.
Treat the job hunt like a job, like there is structure, like there are things in KPIs
and you know, tasks that you need to tick off.
So you don't feel like this is a waste of time.
So you don't feel like this is just an endless cycle of not knowing of effort and setbacks.
But alongside that, when you do it with somebody else, you have that support.
You kind of have somebody, almost like a colleague or a coworker, a coworker in your job
hunt, to complain to and to kind of just have a whine to about how rough it is and to
know that they are experiencing the same thing.
It also just obviously helps combat loneliness of unemployment as well, which is a big thing.
Secondly, don't be afraid to tell people that you are looking for work.
Not only does this train us out of the feeling of shame, which is important.
There is no shame in just getting started and trying to find what's right for you.
But I think when we are vulnerable about something that we don't like to speak about, people
feel a natural inclination to help.
And there is a natural like eliciting of empathy.
They will, I think, connect you with new people.
They will connect you with places that are hiring, with friends that they know in the industry,
with opportunities that they've heard of.
People want to be in your corner.
Those empathy centers in our brain start lighting up when we see somebody else who is not
only struggling but as being open and sensitive about that struggle.
Finally, I want you to know that it will happen even if it is taking time, even if you're
going slower than you imagined, even if you're not where you thought you'd be.
No one wakes up a success.
So many success stories start with shitty jobs, start with being broke, start with not having
the perfect job or any job at all.
There are so many steps in between.
Where you are now and where you want to be in the future.
And I don't know as someone who went through periods of unemployment and who worked terrible
jobs and who got rejected from so many jobs and so many internships, they will come a
point where you do get to look back and be like, you get to tell the story in hindsight
and it feels kind of magical that you got to where you are.
And you do feel in some ways grateful for the lessons that you learned and the fact that
you didn't just come to you easily, that you actually had to try and work hard and test
yourself.
Every small piece, every small thing that you are doing, every small action is contributing
to the process, it's contributing to you, getting a job, finding your career path, figuring
out what you want to do.
But right now it doesn't have to be perfect.
You are doing enough, you are doing the best you can.
And I'm just sending a lot of love, I'm sending a lot of encouragement and support your way
because I know it is tough when everyone around you seems to have it together, when you're
broke, when you don't have the money for the opportunities that you would like to be pursuing,
when it feels like you wasted all your time in uni and college and nobody wants you, it's
temporary.
Something will come your way, I am sure of it.
So I really hope that this episode has been of some solace to you or has at least provided
you with some new information, something else to consider, some tips, some tricks, some
comfort.
As always, if there is somebody that you know in your life who is also job hunting, firstly
maybe hit them up and start applying for some jobs together, it's a great idea.
Otherwise, share this episode with them, maybe they'll get something out of it as well,
make sure that you are following along.
I post so many different episodes, so many different concepts, ideas, so many different
aspects of our 20s and I'm always looking for episodes, suggestions.
So feel free to DM me at that psychology podcast with your thoughts, your feelings, your questions,
your qualms, whatever it is.
I would love to hear from you and as always until we see you next week, stay safe, stay
kind, be gentle with yourself and we will talk very soon.
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Nearly half our youth are struggling with their mental health, but California is building
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Supported by the California Department of Healthcare, Access and Information.
Last season, millions tuned into the betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception.
I'm Andrea Gunning and now we're sharing an all new story of betrayal.
Austin Rutherford, Dr. Father, Family Man.
It was the perfect cover to hide behind.
Detective Weaver said, I'm sure you know why we're here.
I was like, why did the world is covered?
Listen to the trail on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Viosa and I'm Mala.
We're the creators of Look at the Radio, a radio funnig novella which is a fancy way of saying
a podcast.
Love at first listen.
We're older, we're wiser and we're podcasting through a new decade of our lives.
This season, we're falling in love with podcasting all over again and getting to the heart
of our stories.
We're going places we've never gone before and we're bringing you along with us.
With new segments, correspondence and a brand new sound.
Season 9 is kicking off with an intimate interview with Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter
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It's giving you hope right now.
Well, when I see what music does to people, it gives me a lot of hope.
If you liked Look at the Radio before, you're going to love Season 9.
Subscribe to our show and you'll see why Look at the Radio is your Prima's favorite podcast.
Listen to Look at the Radio as part of the Michael Thura Podcast Network, available on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.