I don't like that at all.
I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm Mike Marn.
And you're listening to No Stupid Questions.
Today on the show, is it good or bad to keep secrets?
I don't think I've ever told anybody other than Jason.
Mike, I have a great question for you and I say this because it's my question.
Oh, good. I like these. It's got to be great.
All right, here it is. Very simple.
A good thing or a bad thing to keep a secret.
Oh gosh. Is that a great question?
Is it good or bad to keep a secret?
I mean, my gut reaction is that honesty always wins and transparency is always helpful.
So, you're like, my gut reaction is it's a bad thing to keep a secret.
Right. But it's good to keep them if you've given your word to do it.
Just dive in if you're willing, Miss Angela Duckworth to some examples because my mind is now reeling about all the times when you might keep them.
I know. Now I want to know what secrets you're talking about.
Okay. You know, there's this one short story that I read last year that I loved it so much that I actually tried to memorize the entire thing.
Only you. Well, I didn't do it.
I was just like, oh my gosh, I love this.
It was called Ghosts and it was written by this young woman about her sister and the older sister dies of an illness.
I can't remember what it was by they were both young women, you know, like maybe 18 and 20 or something like that.
And the story, it's not fiction.
This younger sister is remembering her older sister and the older sister toward the end of her life wasn't able to speak for very long.
And you know, she had very little energy, but she made these like tape recordings for her sister.
And one of the last things that she said in a tape recording was the happiest thing right now is I've learned to talk openly.
It works really, really well.
Wow. I read that and I was like, I felt like that older sister was speaking to me.
And I think in a way it's about not keeping secrets.
Right. I think when we think about secrets, it's like infidelity or like, you know, I cheated on my taxes or like, I didn't recycle or something.
You just got into very different extremes there, by the way.
I know. I know. I didn't recycle.
I cheated on my spouse. Well, I was trying to give you a sense of the spectrum.
But that's the origin story from my question.
There are actual scientists who study secrets, but secrets are usually defined as self-relevant information that exposes a vulnerability.
So there's like a risk to disclosing it, which is why in a lot of cases, we don't disclose, right?
But I think it's an interesting topic.
And like, are there any secrets that you'd be willing to tell me right now?
And the answer, by the way, legitimately can be no.
Well, I don't think so. Here's what's funny in my work.
So much of what I do is very secretive until it's not.
So let's not talk about like, you know, I can't give you the formula for Kentucky Fried Chicken because like that would be a violation.
Because I don't have it.
Let's go with this researcher definition of like self-relevant.
You know, is there anything about you that you have kept secret that you're willing to like disclose now?
And again, feel free to say like, no, there's nothing that I have secret.
Or yes, there are things that I have secret, but I'm not willing to tell you.
On those two questions.
Yes, seriously. Let's just be clear on the question.
This is not just am I willing to tell you.
It's am I willing to tell everybody.
Yes, yeah. I don't I mean, I'll tell you what I thought of when I first heard you telling this story from ghosts.
And it was a conversation that I had with a friend of mine in Harvard Square when I first moved to Boston.
And I don't know why we wax so philosophical outside Pete's coffee shop.
Oh, outside of coffee shop in Harvard Square.
What else is there to do than wax philosophical?
But somehow we started talking about and this person has a bit more of a past and some things that maybe others would find unsavory that he had done.
And we were talking about a biblical passage that basically says that someday at the end of times, whatever, that all our sins will be shouted from the rooftops and everything you whispered in private rooms will be made known or something like that.
And I said, okay, well, I think that's a terrible concept.
I don't I don't like that at all.
Interesting. And he disagreed.
He's like, oh, I think it's beautiful.
And I said, you think it's beautiful that everyone's sins will be shouted from the rooftops?
Like that's weird. I don't need to know all the things you once did.
Right. Like it's like lose, lose.
It's like bad for the person who's the sinner and it's bad for like everybody who's going to pass judgment on them.
Yeah. Like I don't even know your secrets.
Like this is what he said, what I thought about for a long time, he said, I actually think it would be a very beautiful thing because no one has anything left to hide.
And we can just accept people for who they are and all of them.
And John Legend has this song.
Have you ever heard this song?
All of you. Oh my gosh. I love all of you, which he wrote for Chrissy Teigen.
Yes. So all of me loves all of you.
And it talks about your perfect imperfections.
Right. And the conversation with my friend in Harvard Square and then the song, all of you, informs my thought process on the secrets maybe we keep about ourselves and our lack of willingness to maybe be vulnerable with other people.
Yeah. But I love the idea of all of me loves all of you.
And my sister, who is a therapist, shared with me one time about a person that she'd worked with who had severe depression and was so afraid to tell his girlfriend and eventually told her and really shared what he thought was the shameful secret.
Yeah. And then he said to her, so how should we break up?
And she said to him, I don't want to break up.
This is what makes you you.
This is part of what makes you so sensitive to other people.
This is maybe part of what makes you so caring.
So willing to enable to notice other people's feelings and needs.
Right. To have empathy and sympathy.
Yeah. And so it was this John Legend idea that like all of me loves all of you.
And I don't want you to hide half of who you are or I don't want you to feel like you can't tell me all these things.
Now those are very different types of secrets than marital infidelity or a rob to bank.
But I think in the parlance of secrets, it's interesting.
You talked about like I learned to talk openly.
It's I'm learning to share all of me and I don't have to hide all these things in the fear that I might be unlovable.
And I want to say that like not recycling a soda can and robbing a bag and like cheating on your spouse or admitting to clinical depression like that.
These are all exactly the same thing.
But they do have something in common, don't they?
There are all things that we wish weren't true perhaps and that we do feel like if we said them that we would be thought lesser of again, not to the same degree.
But I think that's what secrets have in common.
At least the kinds of secrets that immediately leap to mind as secrets like I don't want to disclose this because you'll think lesser of me.
You know, it turns out there's a pretty healthy scientific literature on secrets and there's like a person who's kind of the world expert on the science of secrets.
And so let me give you a little bit of what Michael Slepian who's at Columbia University in the business school like what he's found.
So first of all in one of his highly cited studies 97% of people admit to keeping secrets.
I guess that means that 3% either don't keep secrets from other people or just not going to admit it.
I was going to say that means that 3% are lying.
And actually, well, I was like, you want to tell me a secret and you're like, no, nothing really comes to mind.
I assume you account yourself in the 97% who do have some secrets.
Absolutely. Maybe not that you're willing to go.
Okay. I would never say I don't have any secrets.
I'm for sure of secrets.
Right. Do you have secrets?
I do. And I was actually thinking about this.
I was like, well, if I want to talk to Mike about secrets, am I willing to tell him any secrets?
Angela Duckworth, do you have a secret that you want to share with me?
I don't have any secrets that I want to share with you.
But I have two secrets that I'm willing to share with you.
Well, also, I want to be very clear.
If you don't want to, I'm not going to pressure you ever into doing something you don't want to do.
I mean, I will say that I'm in the 97% right?
Like I'm in the large majority of people who can admit that I keep secrets.
I'll say this. I think I am willing to like tell you a secret or two just for the experiment of how it will feel.
Okay. But before I get there, Michael Sleppion has also found that the average person is keeping about five secrets.
But I wouldn't even know how to, I've got to think about this more.
How do you quantify that?
I guess you'd have to feel like you have these or the things you're hiding.
Yeah. And by the way, sometimes it's hard to think of secrets.
And like one of the ways that he does research is he actually asks you to take a survey.
And I think surveys are so helpful.
I always think of surveys as like psychological selfies.
You know, if I ask you like, what's your personality like?
You're like, uh, all adjectives leap to mind.
But like sometimes it's hard.
But if you just take a personality questionnaire, it asks you questions like, are you very talkative?
After going to a party, do you feel tired?
Right. You know, do you always arrive in meetings on time?
Do you like to read and go to museums and you're like, oh, I can answer these questions.
So I think of questionnaires being very helpful.
And he actually has the secrets survey.
I'm sure as you asked it to me, I would think of some secrets that I'm not currently thinking of.
But yeah, well, you do not have to answer these, right?
So I'll just rattle off a few of them.
Like, you know, have you ever heard another person emotionally or physically and kept the secret from someone else?
Have you ever used illegal drugs or even been addicted to a legal drug like a painkiller?
Have you ever stolen something?
Have you ever physically harmed yourself?
Have you lied to someone?
Have you violated someone's trust not by lying?
For example, by snooping, by revealing information about them, by breaking or losing something that belonged to them without telling them.
So the list goes on and I think it's a really interesting thing because then when you read them, you're like, oh, yeah, I hadn't thought about that.
So I'll tell you some secrets in part because what this research by Michael Sleppian and also others, right?
Like, there was a really nice article a few years ago in a journal I really like called Current Opinion and Psychology.
And those were two other researchers also in business school.
I don't know why these business school professors are studying secrets.
Maybe they're more secrets in business or something, but Stephen Baum and Clayton Critcher.
And I think one of the reasons I'm like a little motivated to experiment with telling you at least one or two secrets is that the research suggests that there is a cost to keeping secrets.
I'm sure. Yeah. So I want to see what it feels like to tell you and maybe more than just you.
I'm ready. And I will say this.
The one commitment I have is no judgment.
So let me begin with the one where you're going to be like, oh, I'm so sorry, but like, I mean, this is embarrassing.
I just says what it is. When I got married to Jason and we were, I guess in our first year of marriage, we lived in San Francisco and we had a little one bedroom apartment.
I woke up one morning and I went the bed.
We both woke up, honestly.
And we both leapt out of bed and we were like, what just happened?
And then we figured out that I had what the bed because like I, you know, it was totally drenched.
And I have to say that it wasn't a secret to Jason because he was there.
Had he not been there? I think I very well may have like rushed the sheets into the laundry and like bought a new mattress before he came home and like never told him, I didn't have the opportunity to hide the secret, but it was immediately humiliating.
And I have to say it also happened to me once at Harvard.
I was like a freshman, I don't know what these two incidents had in common because in general, I'm not a bedwetter.
But like telling somebody that as a grown adult, you have peed yourself.
I mean, I don't think I've ever told anybody other than Jason about this.
So yeah, that's a full on secret.
But does that feel cathartic?
I mean, because they talk about the cost of keeping a secret.
You know, I feel like I'm almost cheating with that secret because I'm confessing something to you that's like, you know, not really that deep and not that dark.
It's interesting shame, I think, like many emotions.
It tends to be strongest in anticipation.
Right. So in this case, I feel like once I've said it, it's like not such a big deal because all that anticipatory emotion about like, oh, well, what will Mike think when he looks at me and he knows I've wet the bed as a grown adult?
Like, I don't know. Once I say it, I'm like, oh, can't be that big a deal.
Like, what is? Right. So I think about in many religious communities, you think about Catholicism, for example, people can go to confession.
You know, I'm Catholic, technically.
No. Wait, did I never tell you that I'm Catholic?
Okay, that's not a secret.
I'm just saying. I never tell you.
Well, so confession is the thing.
But there's a difference in keeping secrets.
There's one thing in confession you're telling a person and not keeping a secret at all.
You're kind of revealing it to everyone.
Well, the shouting for the mountaintops thing, right, which is where you started.
I think that is very different.
I don't know how much value there is to shop in that.
I mean, I don't know that I needed to tell like the entire world that I wet my bed.
Like, I think there's value in telling a person, sometimes something that has been shameful to you are embarrassing.
I don't know that there's like, like, I'm really not into using Twitter as my confessional.
Right. Sometimes the right thing to do is share it with the world.
Sometimes the right thing to do is share it with a much smaller group.
And so if you think about there's alcoholics, anonymous, narcotics, anonymous, there's all these anonymous is there are a lot of anonymous is actually what's beautiful about it is it's not like, Hey, I have to go tell the entire world that I'm an alcoholic.
Yes. Alcoholics, anonymous is a group of people who get together who go through kind of the 12 steps because I think and I've never done the 12 steps.
But I think one of the principles is that shame is just germinated in secrecy.
And so if you at least have the people that are going through it with you, you get a sponsor who helps to guide you who's been through it before.
So I think in this is a good or bad to keep a secret.
Sometimes the answer is, I don't have to air my dirty laundry for the world, but also in order to move past this thing, I need to be open at least with a subset of people.
Right. But like at least originally psychologists who studied secrets thought that the reason why it's costly to keep the burden of a secret is that there was this cognitive load of like, Oh, the secret's about to come out like whack them all.
And so they thought, Oh, there's this fatigue and this tax of like the secret comes up and then you have to like not blurt it out.
It turns out that doesn't happen very often.
We're not actually in that many interactions where I have to be like, please remember not to tell people that I went my bed when I was a newlywed.
It's really actually the cost of ruminating.
So when you have a secret about an active infidelity, an illegal act to something that you think is unworthy, we ruminate about those things.
And the catharsis that I think you're talking about is not the release of like, Oh, I don't have to keep the secret anymore.
And so now I can free up all this cognitive bandwidth.
It's more that you have been emancipated from rumination.
Yeah. That's a heavy load to carry.
So, Angela, I think you and I would both love to hear about our listeners experiences with keeping secrets has revealing a secret ever felt like relieving a burden or their times you wish you'd kept a secret, but didn't record a voice memo in a quiet place with your mouth close to the phone and email it to NSQ at Freakonomics.com and maybe we'll play it on a future episode
of the show. Also, if you like the show, definitely don't keep that a secret.
The best thing you can do to support NSQ is to tell a friend about it.
You can also spread the word on social media or leave a review in your podcast app.
Still to come on no stupid questions.
How does keeping a positive secret affect your life?
You know, we're on vacation, we're in Vancouver.
I mean, kneels down on one knee and like, I'm so happy.
Now, back to Mike and Angela's conversation about the consequences of keeping secrets.
So Angela, here's a study that was done in Britain in 2014 by a family law firm and they found that 20% of people said they were keeping a major secret in their marriage of that 20% one in four of them said the secret was so big that they worried it would end their marriage.
And a quarter of the respondents overall who admitted to lying said they kept the secret for over 25 years.
Wow. One could guess that there is like a fair amount of rumination there that's certainly with the research shows that like there is this cost.
By the way, disclosing a secret is not costless.
You know, it could actually destroy trust or relationship.
But what I would say to the, I guess if I do the math right like one four times one and five, it's like maybe one in 20 people in the survey are keeping a secret that they think could ruin their marriage.
First of all, I'm not going to tell anybody what to do, but it turns out that one of the reasons why we don't disclose things, we think that our standing will go down.
We think you will think less of me when you know this about me.
But the irony is that often when you disclose a secret in general, not always, but in general, the receivers of secrets, they typically think like, oh, what an honest person.
Well, depending on the secret though, right?
Depending on the secret.
But let me tell you another secret that I really do think you should think of me.
It's not a moral violation, but it's very painful.
I taught a class last semester to MBAs at Wharton and I know you teach at a business school as well, at Brigham Young.
So you'll have some empathy for this maybe or at least sympathy.
So when the class ended, I just thought it had gone so well.
Honestly, I was like, I worked my butt off and I delivered a stand out class.
And I was thinking about all the positive feedback that I get when I get my course reviews.
I think you know what's coming.
I get my course reviews and I'm like, look at these numbers.
And I'm like, I don't understand.
9% of the students in my class gave me the lowest possible rating on the response scale for like how good was this class?
The lowest. The lowest.
And then when you look in the verbal comments, you know, yeah, there were some positive comments, but there were students who said it was the worst class they had taken at Wharton.
That is humiliating. Yeah.
I didn't tell anybody for a while and then of course I had to tell my teaching team I had to, but I didn't tell any of my colleagues actually for several days because like that is my vanity.
That is my pride. I'm like, Oh, I don't know about anything else, but I know I'm a great teacher.
Turns out for 9% of students, I was the worst possible teacher I could have been.
First of all, I'm sorry that sucks.
It really does. It was so terrible.
It's still so terrible.
I'm like blushing, even telling you.
And the fact that I was so surprised by those teaching ratings just speaks to my arrogance.
Like how out of touch was I to not recognize it like nearly one in 10 of my students was like the whole time thinking this is the worst class.
So let me go back then again.
Does it feel cathartic?
Does it feel good that that's in the open?
Like what's the cost of keeping a secret?
You no longer have to ruminate on it or because there's no shame, you can just like, Hey, let's go ahead and fix it.
You know, one of the reasons why I told you, I mean, I'm not kidding.
I've been unduly influenced perhaps by like reading and thinking about Ted Lasso.
Like we're both Ted Lasso fans, I think, right?
Huge Ted Lasso fans. And of course, Ted Lasso is a fictitious coach, but I've been like really obsessed with how true so many of the plot lines were.
And they're all parables, right?
So it's kind of like what would Ted Lasso do?
Ted Lasso would, you know, stick his hands in his khaki pants pockets and like shrugger shoulders and that adorable way.
And would say something really hard.
And I think if I channel my inner Ted Lasso, I would say like character is a lot about like, you know, recognizing when you've totally screwed up, like I did something wrong.
That was my responsibility.
So Jason Sudakis, who co-wrote and conceived Ted Lasso, the series, he was very much inspired by the coach John Wooden.
Who's your like icon? I know we both love John Wooden too.
So John Wooden, the legendary UCLA basketball coach, one of the winningest coaches in history, he had these athletes who then grew up to, you know, do different things and several of them wrote books including Karim Abdul-Jabbar.
And so like I really went down the rabbit hole.
But not only reading John Wooden and watching like podcasts of Jason Sudakis talk about how John Wooden inspired Ted Lasso, I was like reading the books of the players who had played with John Wooden about what they learned.
And this is all happening around the same time as I got these disastrous, humiliating course ratings.
I was like, okay, so making a real mistake, you know, not something where you could say like, it's unfortunate, it happened to me.
But like I did it and it was wrong.
I was like, well, if these players and these coaches could own up to their flat out failures because that's what these ratings are to me.
It's like a total F like complete failure.
I'll do it Ted Lasso would do and just like tell somebody.
And I sent the course, I forwarded, so they come as a PDF.
I forwarded the whole thing, all of the numerical ratings and then all of these comments that are terrible to read.
Honestly, I forwarded them to a couple of colleagues and I eventually set up some meetings and I have to have them next week to like go through my teaching and like really try to understand what to change.
So I don't want to say it's like all tied up in a bow, but was it cathartic?
I mean, I'm legitimately glad that I watched Ted Lasso and that like somewhere in my subconscious, I was like, what would Ted Lasso do?
Yeah. I think this is better than certainly than keeping it a secret.
I will say my favorite moment in Ted Lasso of all of the moments is at the end of the first season when Rebecca, who's the owner of the team.
So if people don't know the backstory, Rebecca owns the team and she got it through a divorce with her husband.
It was the only thing her husband ever cared about.
Reubert, evil reubert.
And she just wanted to destroy the club.
No one knows that that's her motivation.
So she hires Ted Lasso who is this American football coach.
She's never coach soccer.
Ted himself goes through a divorce in season one and Rebecca comes downstairs to the coach's office and she's kind of in tears and she says, Ted, I have to confess to you.
I've been using you. I set you up for failure.
I wanted you to lose and you're such a good human being.
You're trying to coach and I've been trying to sabotage you and I'm so sorry.
And I think in this moment, Ted Lasso is finally going to lash out and be like, how dare you screw with my life?
I upended my family. I moved to London left my son.
I've been publicly like slaughtered in the press over and over and over.
Called a wanker. I'm not going to say that, but the fans chance.
It doesn't count when it's like in British that's not cussing.
But all these things, right?
And I thought you're going to finally see Ted Lasso in his righteous indignation.
And I think that might be fair to respond to a secret that way when you've been so brutally used.
He stands up and I don't remember exactly, but he basically looks at her and says, divorce is hard.
I forgive you. And I thought, what a beautifully empathetic way to say like, Hey, you've wronged me a lot, but he immediately goes and we've talked before about this first thought, second thought.
This thought might be how dare you and second thought is man, that's tough.
That's hard. And that gives people permission to share their secrets when you can respond with an element of grace.
That doesn't mean that someone who's been wronged shouldn't also have time.
You should take time to feel that and dwell in those feelings and process them.
I think it's okay to feel angry and you know the thing that you always say, because this is in our first like real conversation about hard things that are happening.
You always say, I'm so sorry.
There's usually like a pause and I can tell you're thinking and then you say, I'm so sorry.
And that really is like a kind of non-judgmental grace.
I mean, I'm usually not confessing things to you like I sabotaged your football team.
So is it cathartic? I don't know, but it does feel like the right thing to do.
Mike, let me share with you, I think the very latest research from Michael Slepian.
So Michael Slepian's most recent work came out in the most prominent journal in psychology for long form research is called Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
And Michael published a series of research called The Bright Side of Secrecy, the Energizing Effect of Positive Secrets.
And since it's a long form journal, I will not drag you through all of the studies that are about it.
It's like really long. Readers digest please.
Well, I'll say that what I think brought Michael to this research on positive secrets, like keeping good news secret was that if it's true that the cost of keeping a bad secret from other people is really rumination like we, he coming back to it and dwelling on it, the positive form of ruminating is savering.
So he started to think like what happens when you have good news that you keep inside by your own volition, you are maybe in a positive way savering it as opposed to in a negative way, ruminating about it.
And so he does all these studies and he develops the good news questionnaire.
I'll just read you a few of these items.
So here's just like an inventory of good things that you tell the researchers that you're either keeping quiet or not completed a task project application creation of something, being accepted to a professional school or internship, getting a new job or promotion, being recognized or celebrated for something at work, financial windfall, saving up money or successfully
putting money away, having a party or social event that's upcoming, giving a gift to someone, having an upcoming trip or vacation, overcoming an obstacle, a new reason to be hopeful, a new plan or goal or ambition and on and on.
So the upshot of this very awesome set of studies is that just like keeping bad secrets has a psychological cost because of rumination, it turns out that keeping good secrets has a boon and that people who are harboring positive secrets actually do feel more energetic and it's likely because of this savoring process.
This one seems crazy to me to be honest.
My main reaction as you were reading that list, it was not like, oh, you get to savor those things, but was more like, I feel sad that you don't have friends.
You don't have a friend to tell.
Friend or a sibling or a spouse or a child, whoever.
And so I actually, as you're reading it, I thought to myself, man, if you have to keep all these little things secret.
First of all, by the way, most people do tell other people about these things.
The question is, are there any secrets that you keep to yourself that are positive, not negative?
Not like do you keep most good news to yourself, but do you keep any good news to yourself?
And they did find that it's very important that there's an intrinsic motivation that you sort of want to do.
Now again, you could say, like, well, why would you do that?
Why do we wrap presents?
To me, it's very similar to keeping a good secret.
We wrap it so that there is this extended waiting period where you know it's going to be good.
Anyway, my point is there is a kind of savering.
I mean, when I first read this research, I was like, if I ever had good news that I kept secret on purpose.
And then I thought like the MacArthur, I had to keep secret.
So when I was given the MacArthur, I was told that I couldn't tell anybody except for one person.
They're like, you just choose one person.
And then six weeks later, we're going to make the announcement.
So I told Jason, but we couldn't tell my father, we couldn't tell my mother, we couldn't tell like all the scientists whose work was really actually being honored because it was joint stuff.
And I guess in those six weeks, the research would, you know, this is Michael Sleppian's research.
But I think you would say that like when someone makes you keep a good secret, you know, you have a great business deal, but you're not allowed to make it public yet.
You also get some benefit.
But the real benefit is like purposely intrinsically, voluntarily keeping a good secret.
I was like you, I was like, I can't think of anything because I want to tell everybody immediately.
And I think that is actually mostly true of me.
But maybe even in the delay period that is short, like when Jason asked me to get married, I was deliriously happy.
And I wanted to tell everybody immediately.
Even proposing since the second week.
It was so long overdue, right?
Because it took a whole year.
But you know, we're on vacation, we're in Vancouver.
I mean, kneels down on one knee and like I'm so happy.
And we did immediately call our parents.
But you know, there was a delay, right?
I mean, wasn't going to like interrupt our vacation to like call every single person that I wanted to tell.
So I would say though in that time where I was in a sense voluntarily keeping good news, there was a kind of savoring because I was in a positive way sort of playing out in my head.
How freaking happy my girlfriends would be who knew I so wanted to get married to Jason.
Like I was kind of savoring it.
So it's a little bit like wrapping a present in gift paper.
Do you think like did I persuade you?
No, I mean, I'm happy that you had a savoring moment.
But in fact, if anything, this idea has convinced me more going back to the original question is it good or bad to keep a secret.
I'm actually more persuaded that it's bad to keep a secret than I was before knowing this idea of savoring because I don't buy it.
I also think that there is a lot of value to just like sharing things good or bad and letting people love all of us.
So no, I remain deeply unconvinced and in fact, I think this research weirdly shoved me even further to the idea of don't keep secrets because I want to be able to celebrate people.
The other day at work, someone came in, this person's very quiet kind of shy but everybody loves him.
His wife comes in with balloons and sweet rolls and some of his kids and it's his birthday and guess what?
I don't care if you wanted to keep that secret because you don't want to be celebrated.
We all want to celebrate you.
And I think about the cost of carrying a secret and the rumination if you did something bad or you're not proud of something because we're creatures of status, like let people love you, let them show you.
I also think there's huge benefit to, I mean, just look at pay transparency.
Lindsay Vaughn talked to all the, you love Lindsay.
I love Lindsay. She talked all the time about how she would talk to the other men in skiing and in the Olympics to find out how much they were being paid and because they didn't keep secrets, they told her she negotiated and said, you can't pay me less because I'm a woman.
I think about Octavia Spencer and Jessica Chastain.
Octavia Spencer, a black actress, Jessica Chastain, a white actress.
Both of them Oscar winners, right?
Both incredible actresses.
But Jessica said to Octavia, women of color are being paid less.
We're going in together as a team.
Whatever I get paid, you'll get paid, whatever you get paid, I get paid.
And so I think the idea of breaking down some of these secrets, whether they're good secrets or bad secrets.
We're on team disclosure.
Yeah, team disclosure.
You don't have to tell everyone.
You don't have to tweet it.
You don't have to shout it from the mountaintops.
But on balance, it's a good rule to share.
Yeah, and if you win an award, maybe you have to keep a secret for six weeks.
Fine. But tell me, and I'm going to be like, so happy for you.
Yeah, and if you don't have friends who can be happy for you, then find some freaking new friends.
Okay, I hear you. I will say what I learned from reading Michael Slepian's research and others is that like, really, you know what happens when you keep these things to yourself?
There is a kind of rumination process.
If it's positive, you can call it savoring.
If it's negative, just call it rumination.
But that's an insight to me.
Like just know that that's happening.
And then you can decide what to do with it.
And for you, I think you're like, yeah, I know what to do with it.
You're going to just go out and belt John Legend.
Right. The thing I love so much about those lyrics and about the Ted Lassa response to Rebecca is that we have to love all of everyone.
We can't just pick the good parts.
We have to be willing to take the good with the bad.
And guess what? We all have it.
Maya Angelou always talked about the most boring people or those who pretend they don't have skeletons in their closet.
Because we all have a skeleton.
In fact, that's what's inside all of us.
And I think that the idea to a happy life going back to ghost is that the happiest thing right now is that she is learned to talk openly.
And that's why I don't think secrets do any favors for us because we all have so many parts to us and so do all the people we love.
And so we have to learn to love all of it.
And now here's a fact check of today's conversation.
In the first half of the show, Angela tells Mike about what she learned from Pulitzer Prize finalist, Wahini Barra's short story Ghosts.
Angela couldn't recall which illness the author's sister suffered from.
Barra writes that her sister was diagnosed with uing sarcoma, a cancer of the bone or soft tissue when she was just a junior in high school.
We should also note that Barra didn't write this story entirely on her own.
She found the topic of her sister's death particularly difficult to write about.
And so she ended up turning to artificial intelligence for editorial assistance.
Chat GPT-3 helped her to draft nine different versions of an essay about her grief.
Angela was quoting from the final version.
Angela also says quote, and the story it's not fiction.
But in the introduction to ghosts, Barra writes, My and my editors soul alterations to the AI generated texts were adding paragraph breaks in some instances and shortening the length of a few of the stories.
As if it had not been edited beyond this, inconsistencies and untruths appear.
Later, Mike and Angela break down the lyrics from singer-songwriter John Legend's 2013 song about his relationship with his wife, the model and television personality, Chrissy Tegan.
They repeatedly refer to the song as quote, all of you.
But fans of Legend's work will know that the piece is actually titled All of Me.
Then, Angela references research by Columbia University professor Michael Slepion that found that the average person is keeping about five secrets.
This is incorrect. Slepion survey actually found that at any given moment, people have an average of 13 secrets that they're hiding from either some or all people.
That's it for the fact check.
Before we wrap today's show, let's hear some thoughts about last week's episode on Maritocracy.
Hi, Angela and Mike. I really like your latest episode on Maritocracy and the idea of doing a luck audit in particular.
It reminded me of a recent interview on another show by Trevor Noah of Mark Cuban, who was tag-lined a billionaire, which I found really off-putting.
Because I have a real problem nowadays with successful people telling unsuccessful people how to better live their lives.
So I was actually surprised to come away with a really good impression of Mark Cuban.
He acknowledges that he's made good decisions, but that it was the opportunities that came along that allowed any chance of him using his knowledge to become a billionaire.
And that he just got lucky.
He says that there are a whole lot of people who are really, really smart and who do the same things he does, but they didn't get as lucky.
I think we don't hear it as often as we need to, because people really want to believe that there's a formula to follow, and it'll solve the puzzle of achieving success.
But the truth is, we tend to resist a fundamental piece of wisdom that we've all heard, which is life ain't fair.
That was listener Kathleen Bolton.
Thanks so much to her and to everyone who shared their stories with us.
And remember, we'd love to hear your experiences with keeping secrets.
Send a voice memo to NSQ at Freakonomics.com.
And you might hear your voice on the show.
Coming up next week on Most Stupid Questions.
Why are we so obsessed with the idea of free will?
Does free will exist? Oh.
And here's the real question.
Does it even matter that we think about this question?
That's next week on Most Stupid Questions.
Most Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which also includes Freakonomics Radio, People I mostly admire, and the economics of everyday things.
All our shows are produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio.
The senior producer of the show is me, Rebecca Lee Douglas, and Lear Kvoudich is our production associate.
This episode was mixed by Eleanor Osborne.
We had help on this episode from Julie Canfer, and Research Assistance from Daniel Moritz Rapson.
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