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Happy holidays from all of us at ThinkFast TalkSmart, the podcast.
We position ourselves to be more connected and effective when we take time to reframe our approach to achievement, empathy, and our purpose.
I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to ThinkFast TalkSmart, the podcast.
Today, I am really excited to chat with Marshall Goldsmith.
Marshall is a world -renowned coach and author.
He's been named the number one leadership thinker in the world, and for years has been the number one executive coach globally.
Marshall, thanks for joining me.
I am super excited for our conversation today.
Oh, thank you so much for inviting me.
Honored to be here.
Excellent. Shall we get started?
Let's get rolling. Excellent.
As you know, we're all about helping our listeners hone and develop their communication skills across all of the work you do with global leaders.
What is the most common communication advice you find yourself giving?
Three words, positive, simple, and focused.
I think people tend to talk too much, get lost in concept.
Two, keep it simple.
Have a clear linear thought pattern that people can follow.
And if you have about 20 different things to cover, do it in two different meetings.
Don't do it all at once.
And finally, keep a focus so people understand what you're doing, why you're saying it, and how you're saying it.
Don't have excessive complexity.
So, keeping it accessible for your audience, making sure it's not too much, and if it needs to be, make it more than one communication.
Really, really helpful.
You talk about an earned life.
I'm curious to have you share with us what you mean by an earned life, and how do we achieve an earned life when so many of us are, as you write, addicted to achievement?
Well, I'm gonna read the definition just to make sure I don't get it wrong, so I brought my handbook here.
We're living an earned life when the choices, risks, and effort we make in each moment align with an overarching purpose in our lives, regardless of the eventual outcome.
Now, that last part is the non -Western part, regardless of the eventual outcome.
Now, you mentioned addiction to achievement.
The great Western disease is I will be happy when?
If achievement would make you happy, everyone I coach would be dancing off the walls with joy every day.
Happiness and achievement are independent variables.
Be happy to be happy and achieve to achieve.
Never believe any amount of achievement will make you happy.
Now, there's no wonder we believe this.
The entire Western ethos is you will be happy when.
You may have seen this art form.
There is a person. They're sad.
They spend money. They buy a product.
Oh, and become happy.
It's called a commercial.
Now they have less money in a product.
Right, so it seems to me that we're chasing the wrong goal, and the goal is if you want to be happy, work to make yourself happy.
It's not about getting all the achievements and the accolades, especially here in Western culture for sure, we conflate the two.
And what I hear you saying is it leads us down a path that will never get us to that goal of happiness.
The Buddhist term is called the hungry ghost.
The hungry ghost is always eating and never full.
Excellent. I'd like to turn back to your coaching experience, especially around communication.
How do you suggest individuals adapt their communication styles as they ascend the ranks, particularly when they themselves are already seen as top performers?
What is it they can do to adjust and adapt as they're evolving in their careers and in their life?
I did write a book called What God You Are Here Won't Get You There, which kind of addresses this.
And here's what it says, for the great individual achiever, it might be all about me.
For the great leader, it's all about them.
And the big transition is transitioning out of this.
It's all about me. Great achiever.
I'm right. Prove myself to it's all about them, which is, by the way, phenomenally difficult to do.
It's hard not to win all the time.
Prove you're right.
Let me give an example.
One of my great coaching clients at JP Garnier was CEO of Glaxo.
And I said, what did you learn about leadership as CEO of this company?
He said, I've learned a very hard lesson.
My suggestions become orders.
Now I said, they're smart, they're orders.
They're stupid, they're orders.
If I want them to be orders, they're orders.
If I don't, they're orders anyway.
My suggestions are orders.
I asked JP, what'd you learn from me?
And he said, I learned one thing before I speak, breathe.
Is it worth it? Is it worth it?
My friend, Alan Malolly, great guy, turned forward around.
Alan has a discipline.
Somebody asked him a question, you know what he says?
Is there anyone else in this company or anybody else we can heart?
Can answer that question better than me?
If the answer is yes, why am I talking?
Listen, wonderful. It sounds to me that changing our perspective and approach really matter when we're looking for happiness, when we're looking at achievement.
And I love what you said, a very tactical and practical bit of advice is take a breath.
Take a breath and think about the implication.
I think there is a pressure that we feel, especially in leadership roles, to act quickly, to be decisive and that pause to think about the ramifications.
Is this suggestion likely to turn into action?
Am I the right person to speak?
Do I know what I'm saying?
So perspective shifting is important.
And it means that we have to think about what's important for us and not necessarily just fall victim to what we think is what we're supposed to be doing.
Before speaking at work, breathe, is my comment going to improve this other human being's commitment?
Well, if the answer is no, breathe again, is it worth it?
Now, maybe my comment is a little bit better, but maybe the commitment will go down at home, breathe.
Is my comment going to improve this relationship with someone I love?
If the answer is no, am I my statement?
Peter Drucker, we're here on earth to make a positive difference, not to prove her smart, not to prove her right.
Excellent, so be thinking about the difference we have to make and reflect on it before we act first.
One of the many things that you talk about that really resonates with me, and we've spent a fair amount of time talking about on this podcast, is the notion of feedback.
But you talk not about feedback, but feed forward.
Can you explain what you mean by feed forward and discuss how this approach helps individuals focus and improve?
Here's the key, ask for ideas for the future, not feedback about the past.
And two, when you get ideas, you can't judge and critique ideas.
Can't say good idea, bad idea, or do you think that'll work?
Listen, smile, take notes, and say thank you.
Now, again, back to Buddhism.
Buddha said, only do what I teach works for you.
If it doesn't work, it's okay, don't do it.
Well, in feed forward, you ask for ideas, you get the ideas, you thank them, you treat the idea like a gift.
Somebody gives me a gift, don't say stupid gift, dumb gift, I don't like your gift, thank you.
That's what feed forward is all about.
I like how just framing it, just the word itself sounds positive and invites people in, because you're absolutely right.
People get very defensive.
When you hear, I have feedback to give, even if it ultimately is praise, people get really defensive.
And I like that it is something that you seek.
You ask, what are the things that I can do?
And you help the person focus on the future, not what the past behavior has been.
We can only control what's going ahead, not what's happened behind.
And I like that. And again, a theme I'm hearing in your work, Marshall, is take time, listen, and it's in that listening.
Not just to others, but to yourself that can help you really change.
And I appreciate that.
In your book, triggers, you talk about how our environment can shape our behavior.
Can you share some strategies on how individuals can create environments that support positive behavioral change for themselves and others?
Well, the first thing is, figure out what your triggers are.
Now we all get set off by certain things in the environment.
We may get angry, act inappropriate, a drink too much smoke.
I mean, whatever it is for you, it is for you.
Work out, not work out, positive or negative.
What are the things in your environment that are triggering you, number one?
Then number two, learn to avoid if possible.
Avoid the ones that set you off.
Avoid the people that set you off.
Avoid the bad behaviors that set you off in the wrong direction.
And then if you can't, avoid adjust.
Learn to breathe again, breathing.
And think, when this happens, this is exactly when I tend to lose it.
Learn to identify those things, breathe, breathe, breathe.
And then realize we are constantly bombarded by our environment.
And we are constantly in this world of error, so rapid input change.
And it is very hard not to let it control us.
I really like this idea of take the time to think about what triggers you.
Identify those triggers, see them.
So we actually have some control.
You refer a lot to Buddhism.
I have studied Eastern philosophy.
I align myself more as a Taoist than a Buddhist.
But the difference between reacting and responding is something that I think you're touching on here.
You want to give yourself a little bit of time so you can make a conscious choice and react appropriately, rather than just responding as the trigger might prompt.
And make a choice about that response.
One of the things I heard you say was, hey, I see the trigger and I'm gonna walk away.
Or I'm not gonna play that game.
I'm not gonna get sucked in.
And that's so important.
Another theme I'm hearing as you talk is this notion of reflect, listen, slow down, readjust your frame or your perspective.
Thank you. You talk about a success checklist.
Can you share some of the items on the checklist so we can all benefit?
And are there any that have higher priority than others of the questions on the checklist?
I do something every day called daily questions.
Now I highly recommend to all of your listeners.
Daily questions are a great idea.
Every day you make a list of what you think is most important in your life.
And every question has to be answered by a yes, no, or a number.
And every day it fell out of form.
And at the end of the week, you get a little report card.
Now I've been doing this 25 years.
I'm gonna warn all your listeners in advance, it's not that pretty.
Now I'm gonna give your listeners and viewers six questions to ask themself.
If you just do this every day, you're gonna have a better life.
And I would warn in advance, it's hard to do this.
They all begin with the phrase called did I do my best to?
Now my daughter, Kelly's a professor at Vanderbilt and she taught me the idea of active questions.
The advantage of an active question as you look in the mirror, you don't blame others.
Number one, every day did I do my best to set clear goals?
Not did somebody set goals for me, did I set my own goals?
Two, did I do my best to make progress?
Three, we've talked about this every day, did I do my best to be happy?
Every day, did you try to be happy today?
Number four, did I do my best to find meaning, rather than waiting for the world to give you meaning in life, did I do my best to find meaning in my life?
Number five, did I do my best to build positive relationships?
And finally, number six, did I do my best to be fully engaged?
Every day, go through that checklist.
Did I do my best too?
Now research on this is compelling.
If you do this every day, guess what?
You get better. I can tell you, it's hard to do.
Why? It's embarrassing.
Do I still screw up every day?
Yes. Do I not work out when I should?
But of course, we're human.
Having a ritual, a practice of inquiry and reflection is critical.
And I love what your daughter taught you about active inquiry as a way of really driving change.
And it seems to me that not only on a daily basis can this help us change our behaviors, but perhaps we notice patterns over time that can help us begin to see larger areas of change that we might want to make.
And I can see how this type of questioning can help what we started this interview with with this notion of breaking the achievement cycle.
And it forces you, these questions are really not about achievement.
They're about how you are in the world.
And that to me is very valuable.
I like that you use old school ways of helping us get better reflection and asking ourselves questions, but you also are stepping into the present and future using artificial intelligence.
I'd love to hear a little bit about how you are leveraging some technology to help people take benefit from your experience, your wisdom and your thoughts.
Well, I've always wanted to give away everything I know to as many people as I can.
It's been hard to figure out how to do it.
I failed in my efforts for about 20 years.
I tried all kinds of bozo ideas that didn't work.
And now it is amazing.
So all you have to do is go to Marshall Goldsmith, my name Marshall is two Ls goldsmith .ai.
You can ask it deep questions.
It is unbelievable.
It's amazing. We actually are working on something very similar for the podcast where we've uploaded transcripts of some of the guests and some of the discussions we've had.
The ability to focus our in the moment need and get responses from experts like yourself, I think is a fantastic advancement and something that AI can really enable.
And while there are lots of concerns around AI for sure, this is an amazing use case.
A frequent question I get asked, and I can only imagine you get asked too, is how do I speak up?
How do I assert myself in my position when talking to people who are higher up in the leadership hierarchy?
I'd love to hear your ideas on this.
Well, you know, I had the honor of spending many days with Peter Drucker before he died.
And he taught me this lesson, I've shared with people at all levels of management.
Here are his points.
Number one, our mission life is to make a positive difference, not to prove we're smart and not to prove we're right.
Number two, every decision life is made by the person who has the power to make the decision.
Make peace with that, not the smartest person, the best person, rational person.
And then number three, if I need to influence you and you have the power to make the decision, there's one word to describe you, customer.
One word to describe me is salesperson.
Customers don't have to buy, salespeople have to sell.
And as we go through life, think like that great salesperson, I'm here to make a positive difference.
How can I do this in the best way I can?
And like any good salesperson, you know what you sell, what you can sell, you know what you change, what you can change, can't sell it, you can't change it.
I really appreciate that advice and especially that last piece about, it's your job to sell what you have the ability and control over selling.
And looking at that relationship that way, I think can make the daunting tasks sometimes feel more manageable.
And we can leverage skills that we know we have.
We've been able to sell and position things.
Excellent, thank you.
Before we end, Marshall, I'd like to ask you three questions.
One I create just for you and the other two are similar to those I ask across all my guests.
So are you up for that?
Yes. I wanna come back to the notion of feedforward.
I'm curious, reflecting on some recent feedforward information you've received, would you mind sharing what that was and perhaps what you're doing to adjust and adapt based on that feedforward information?
Well, Dr. Waldinger taught me a great lesson.
He said, your life's better if you give people unconditional love.
One person gives you unconditional love, your life is better.
For my grandkids, both my daughter and Dr.
Bob were right. All I do now is give them unconditional love.
I write them a letter every day, tell them I love them, everybody wins.
So that's a positive example.
I love that positive example and the advice that comes from it for all of us, unconditional love.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Frances Hasselbine, she's no longer with us.
Frances is an amazing human being.
I'm gonna give you one little story about her and communication though.
She asked me to do a program for the Girl Scouts.
I said, I can do it, but I can only work on Saturday.
She said, you work Saturday, we work Saturday.
I said, Frances, I'm embarrassed to say that I'm a different city every day.
I gotta get my clothes done.
Not a problem. We got a laundry service here.
I said, what are you doing?
Put all your laundry in a pile and we'll have someone pick up your dirty clothes and you'll get your clothes done and everything will be fine.
And I just appreciate your helping us thank you.
I wake up in the morning.
I'm talking to the head of the Girl Scouts in New York, LA, Chicago, very distinguished women.
And I look walking across the halls, Frances Hasselbine carrying my dirty clothes.
Now talk about communication.
She didn't have to give a speech about the leadership, humility, who's the customer?
How do you treat volunteers?
No. To me, a great communicator, it's what's on the inside.
It's the action, not necessarily the words that matter.
Thank you for that.
Final question for you.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Positive, simple, and focused, right?
Positive, I am up, I'm positive.
I'm giving a message that people will listen to and appreciate.
The average human can't remember eight unrelated words on a piece of paper.
So I can babble stuff all day.
They're not going to remember it anyway.
It's got to be reasonably simple or it gets lost and focused, a clear, understandable pattern.
And again, if you've got too much to say, say in two minutes.
Right. It is with deep gratitude that I express my thanks for your time with us today.
The lessons about slowing down, listening, reflecting, understanding the true nature of what excites us.
This is how we become not just better communicators and better leaders, but certainly better people.
Marshall, thank you so much.
Thank you so much. Honored to be here.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about personal development, please listen to episode 138 with Graham Weaver.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Riley, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder with thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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