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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our
20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, new listeners,
old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology
of our 20s.
A bit of a universal truth about this decade is that nothing is set in stone.
This is obviously one of the major periods in our life for exploration, for change, and
that includes the jobs we work in our career path.
I think in the past, our careers were very much mapped out for us and restricted.
We chose one career path and it kind of followed us through life.
And nowadays, we have a lot more freedom and capacity for change.
And I think it is really valuable to discuss how we could make that scary transition from
one career to another facing things like financial uncertainty, job insecurity during this decade.
And making that decision because either we are unhappy with where we are or we are just
looking for something different, something more fulfilling, more us.
Or maybe there has been a factor beyond our control.
Getting fired for example or just being burnt out.
I think honestly our 20s are the best time for this change and it might feel really scary
to start from scratch.
You might not even know where to begin.
But that is where our amazing guest comes in.
We thought we might bring on an expert, the founder of career contestor Lauren to talk us
through exactly how we can kind of change careers in our 20s and be sure about decisions.
So Lauren, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Hi, thanks for having me.
First, can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, absolutely.
And then we'll get to the psychology of it.
So my name is Lauren McKinnell.
I'm the founder and CEO of Career Contessa.
We are the largest online professional platform for women in their careers.
Anybody can use our site, but we do mostly tailor our advice and content for women.
Because women's careers are different.
Being a woman in the workplace is different.
And really what we do is we help people get hired, get paid, advance at work, build
these fulfilling careers.
And the reality and kind of where the psychology piece of this kind of probably comes into is
that mindset of like, there's no one career for anybody.
You know, there's not like linear career paths.
One plus one doesn't always equal to in your careers.
And so what I set out to create was this resource that wasn't just a job site, which is what
a lot of things are.
They're like, get the job and then we're done with you.
I really wanted a career site that could build and grow with people as they navigate different
transitions and shifts in their career.
So we do that at Career Contessa.
We have a podcast called Career Contessa.
I have a book called Power Moves.
You know, we have all the things so that people can continue to thrive in their workplace.
I honestly love that.
I wish I had a resource like that when I first finished university because the only thing
I really had access to was like, Seek.
And like, that was it.
Like, Seek and like the job page of like my university website.
So that is like super, super amazing.
And I think such a great resource.
I also love what you said where by one plus one doesn't always equal to when it comes
to our careers.
Yeah.
It's very frustrating.
Oh, yeah.
But also it's super, it's really frustrating, but then it's also kind of freeing because
sometimes you can equal for or like five.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
You know what I mean?
Like I'm thinking about my own kind of path through my 20s and like the little career
dips and turns that I took.
And like I started this day, I'd working hospital.
Then I worked as like in a cool center.
Then I worked as like an interviewer for the government and I was working as a consultant.
Like now I'm here.
I feel like if that's what the first five years of my 20s has had for me.
The last five months have even more.
So anyhow.
Yes.
Absolutely.
I like your optimistic view on all things.
So far this is great.
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad.
And I feel, yeah, I feel like it's better to just approach things with this air of like
surely this is this is all going to turn out okay.
It leads to a lot of my favorite quotes is it's this or something better.
And it's like, you know, what?
Well, because what's the alternative?
You're going to be like, it was this or my life was over like, you know, you don't want
that either.
So it's this or something better.
It's kind of in my new model.
I love.
Yeah, absolutely.
We're going to talk about that more on a personal level later.
But one of my first questions for you is, what are some of the common reasons why
individuals, people like us in our 20s might consider changing careers?
I mean, it happens for a whole variety of reasons.
It can be that you kind of fell into a career.
So maybe you found a job through your career center and it wasn't something you really
wanted, but it was better than nothing.
And so you kind of were doing it and all of a sudden you're like, I don't want to do
this the rest of my life.
For example, my very first job at a college, my new graduate during a recession was a
great.
I was an admin assistant for a university.
I didn't want to do that forever.
I knew I didn't and I just sort of needed the time to obviously bills don't pay themselves.
So you sometimes will take a bridge job while you are working toward wherever you want
to go next.
Sometimes it can be that, okay, I've started working and I have a huge interest in this
other thing and I really want to maybe keep doing my job function, but in a different
industry.
And then you have the flip side where it's like, I want to say in the same industry, but
do something totally different.
I had a really good friend we worked on the recruiting team together at Hulu and she
made in her 20s, she transitioned from the recruiting team to the marketing team.
Now she has a much bigger career in marketing.
It was that transition that sort of was the first stepping stone.
So I think this happens a lot.
I also think in your 20s, you sort of, you don't know what you don't know.
And so one of the beautiful things about working and just taking something and getting out
there is that you start to get introduced to new things and you start to follow your curiosity.
And so there are so many reasons why people might consider a career pivot, whether it's,
I just want to do so many different or I want more salary potential.
Someone who maybe decided they wanted to be a teacher and they're like, you know what,
I love this career, but I can't live off of this salary.
So what can I do?
So like, everyone has their personal reasons.
It can be, I want to work remote.
Okay, so what careers are going to allow you to do that forever?
So I think it all comes down to sort of people having a little bit more clarity about
what they really want or something that really matters a lot to them.
And you kind of, it's like you can't always figure those things out thinking about them.
You know, clarity comes from engagement, not thought.
It's not my quote, that's Marie Forleo's, but I love it because you can't just sit there
and think really hard and hope that the answer comes.
You do have to get out there and start doing.
And I feel like it's such an exercise of like value realignment because as we go through
our 20s, the values that we held when we first maybe entered the workplace and were making
career related decisions at like 16 and 17, like whilst we were still in high school,
those values change.
Maybe when you were 18 years old, you really valued money and you really valued this idea
of, I'm going to build all this wealth in my 20s so that I can relax for the rest of
my life and you get halfway through that and you realize this is incredibly unfulfilling
and like not a life that I want to leave.
Like I think there are so many factors that come down to finding something that aligns
to who you are as you change and how, as your values change as well.
The other big one for me, I think about this a lot.
I think our jobs are one of the biggest time consumers in our lives.
It's probably second only to sleep and so not being happy with what you do for a living
with what you do every day for eight hours can suck a lot of life out of everything else
you do.
I think it can be an incredible source of stress and tension.
I used to do what I was doing like working in a call centre.
I would do mental health reviews and interviews for the government and it was just eight hours
of asking people about the worst and hardest points in their life day in and day out and
it made me so miserable and I didn't want to go to work.
I would call and sick all of the time.
What do you think of some of the signs that we actually really do need to contemplate
a change?
It's not because we want to do something that's more in line with our values.
It's because we seriously need to make a shift here.
I feel like your body usually tells you whether you want to listen or not.
I had this person I interviewed once and she said your body will give you clues and the
clues get louder when you don't pay attention to them.
A toxic workplace can impact you in a whole variety of ways but if you keep going up the
scale eventually it's like people can experience like out of a immune disorders and they're
like, I get this and you're like, oh well you've been extremely stressed for the last
two years and like, okay your body is responding to that.
I think there's a lot of little signs of people always want to know, is it me, is it the
job?
One of the things I do think is important to think about is you take yourself wherever
you go.
The first thing I would do if you're recognizing that is do some of your own works.
Work with a therapist, do some journaling exercises.
Some of these things that we talk about actually do work.
We moments of mindfulness, disconnecting, don't doom scroll.
Start with some of those things because those are the things you can control.
Maybe also the other thing I find for people is like sometimes they can't quite identify
what it is that about work.
Yours was obviously very obvious.
Sometimes you're lucky and it is really obvious and other times it's like you're being
gas-lighted by a boss who you don't quite understand that behavior so education can help
a lot with that too sort of educating yourself about toxic workplaces, manipulative bosses
and start to kind of recognize those things because sometimes there's things that you
can control but we can't always control other people's actions.
The other thing about boundaries I always think about is when you think of a boundary
you're like no emails after 5pm and you're almost like you're expecting your boss to
not do that but really the boundary is something that you set more for yourself.
Almost like a limit you're setting for yourself.
So it's like no I'm not going to respond to emails after 5pm.
I can't control that they send the emails after 5pm but that's what I'm going to do.
So those are all kind of little tips I would say to things to start with.
If you're doing all those things or you just know this is not what I want to do I'm so
unhappy I'm miserable.
Look I'm not a person who would just naturally say like just quit your job and find something
else.
I would be a person who says because not everyone has that privilege.
I was in a job that I absolutely hated.
I cried in the bathroom.
I got asked one day to feed paper through a printer and I was like they have to be
kidding.
This is like literally what this machine does.
Like what do you mean I have to put paper one by one into the printer.
I was so miserable.
And the thing that helped me get clarity and I think was like more of a positive outlet
than just quitting my job was I started having informational interviews with people.
I started reading books and listening to podcasts.
I found another friend who was also a job searching and we connected once a week and we were
sending many goals and having informational interviews.
That job was never going to be the job for me.
And looking back there were so many parts about it that didn't align with my values and
why I didn't love it.
But I wasn't going to change that workplace.
So instead I was like what are some of the things I can control because I didn't have the
ability to quit my job and focus on those things full time.
But what I found is I was on cloud nine just by engaging in some of these things that made
me feel like there was hope that I wasn't going to be working in this job forever that I
hated.
So that's at least been my experience.
Now if you have the ability to like you've got some savings or you have you know some side
skill that you can monetize and do some freelancing or side hustle or whatnot and you are able
to quit your job then maybe you quit your job because you're like it's actually doing more
harm for me to show up and keep doing this than it is for me to to quit and you know make
other sacrifices and other places.
So there's a great book called Essentialism and it's all about focus and one of the things
he talks about is like life is full of trade offs and I think that's really important
because not everything can be a priority, not everything can be your number one.
So what are you willing to trade off?
You know are you willing to trade off you know the salary of this job that you hate to
you know take a bridge a couple of bridge jobs and look for a new job on the side you
know or are you able to say like hey I I can stay here and kind of like you know
like de compartmentalize like this job is not for me I won't be here forever and here
are all the things I'm doing to take action to get myself out of here.
So those are just some of the things that come to mind when I think of like when people
are trying to side shy stay or shake oh it really depends on your situation you know you
you have to know what your financial runway is you have to know and those are very empowering
things too you should know like well okay don't have three months of you know the average
job search right now is taking about five months maybe even a little bit longer because
it's it's a very tough job market out there.
So for example if you still have a job you might say I'm not going to quit because it's
tough like so you have to take into account your own situation and some realities of what's
happening and then make a strategy based on that.
The goodness about the strategies you can tweak it you can refine it as you're going along
um and like I said I think a huge piece of this is also finding some community find a friend
who's also job searching fine um you know a community of people who are focused on this
stuff because it will make you feel less alone and it's one of the most important things
when you are thinking about making a transition is talking to people who have been there
and done that or going through it with you because they can relate.
Yeah absolutely I think community is such an antidote to so many things.
Yeah and you made and you made such a good point like I think obviously this is a it's
a podcast about psychology and I think prioritizing your mental health is number one really like
if the job is seriously causing you to feel mentally unwell I think it's hard to not
be like well you should just quit um and you should just like get out of there because
it's going to cost you a lot more and just like mental energy emotional energy time to
recover from that emotional experience um and I think obviously our mental health is
like the most valuable resource that we have other than maybe like physical health but
it's also like you said it's really important to be realistic and to give yourself hope
whilst you're still in that situation right like I think hope is such like a psychologically
powerful emotion I don't think I'm the first person to figure that out but like it is
so so powerful to keep you optimistic to keep you know your spirits high to keep you motivated
even whilst your environment and the job you're currently working is perhaps really terrible
and you're miserable and it's awful the other thing that I wanted to say to that is I
had someone on the show who said sometimes we change our external environment because
there's something internally that we want to change so it's an interesting thing when
we talk about changing careers in our 20s because obviously in one hand I'm like yes
absolutely take the risk to anything you can to try out a new version of you that you
think you might be happier in but I sometimes see cases whereby people continuously change
their careers because they're using their careers as a proxy for something else that's
wrong in their life totally it's it's easier sometimes to change your career than to do deep
internal work right like and also I think it feels like a tangible thing sometimes like
your job title your company your boss like the the external environment feels very tangible
what I have found about psychology and internal work is like that feels sometimes a little
elusive you know like you can't quite hold that feeling in your hand even though you feel
it you know it's like why psychologists will be like name the emotion you're like I can't
and you're like okay well step one we got to put some words to this sometimes you know so
I I would agree with that absolutely I think that's why I say you take yourself wherever
you go so if you don't do that work you you you take and I want to say baggage but you take
that to the next place and you kind of collect these experiences and keep thinking why
aren't they changing and you're like but you only have control of yourself too so it is
it is like the guest who said that I completely understand and I think I see this a lot in
job hopping where people will job hop and they'll say well I'm doing it because I want to
get a higher salary and you're if you like peel back all the layers they're actually doing it
because they like are afraid like they have massive imposter syndrome and they're afraid that
the current company is going to realize they're not actually worth what they paid for the or
like whatever like a thing like that and you're like oh okay well this is actually not about
job hopping for like salary and career advancement this is this is a different thing all together so
I absolutely do see that as well. The other fact to hear that I was thinking about as well is
burnout like if you were if you were mentally so burnt out that you can't function at your job
I understand if I understand in some cases like if you're working as a nurse and
you're working crazy hours and then you transition to like an admin job perhaps that would be
better but if you're burnt out it does not just take like it's like a career change to solve that
and nor does it take like quitting a job for it to go away like that burnout is like a deep
emotional and physical state that needs to be addressed at a more holistic level you might feel
momentarily refreshed by changing careers or changing what more so in this area like changing jobs
but it's going to come back really really quickly if you don't establish like proper boundaries
and I think that's another huge thing that maybe before you choose to change careers you see
what else is available to you in the current career and see whether there is room for you to be
promoted whether there is room for you to grow or whether there is room for you to upskill in some
way or whether there is room for you to just take like a long holiday like a long paid vacation
which I know I'm saying this from a point of like I'm in Australia and that is we have long-term
paid leave so I don't know if you guys have that no the US is like I'm having heart surgery I'll be
delayed responding to your email you know our view on work is very unhealthy over here but one
thing I was going to say about your comment about burnout this is what I have found you can be working
crazy long hours but be really motivated and energized by what you're working on and you're not
burnt out I actually don't think burnout is always correlated to number of hours and whatnot
I think burnout is actually more correlated to the impact in the purpose so for example if you
understand the impact that your work has on the company the team the product the customers whatever
I think that's much more energizing and keeps you from burning out because you understand your
bigger impact when I do this thing here's how it adds to the bigger picture when you are working
crazy and you're you're just doing a ton of busy work and you feel like this work doesn't matter
nobody cares about this work guess what that is going to lead to burnout very quickly it's it's a
one-way ticket to burnout in the sense of like sometimes I think it's more about the impact that
your work is making because us as humans part of our well-being is that purpose piece it's wanting
to make an impact it's it's why you know trust fund babies who can sit on a beach all day long
don't you know they don't they it's like it's not there's there's a piece of your well-being that
wants to contribute and make an impact and be working on something that matters to you um
and I think that especially when you're younger in your career look you're not going to be given
like some major big project or this like you're going to be asked to do some groundwork but like a way
that you can rephrase this like I remember I got this advice early on um that I really liked
and it was um it was swallow the frog and it was it's kind of like one of those greatest hacks um
and I think it's helpful to learn it early on in your career is observe your boss you know figure out
what they hate doing and then learn how to do it and take it off their plate like can you you know
my point being is like sometimes early on in your career nobody's going to come to you and say do
this thing it will make a big impact in my day and therefore in your career but you could you know
job titles are just a start you know thinking about thinking outside the box of your job
description your job title and thinking about okay what what thing does my boss hate but it
matters to them could I learn it and take it off their plate and therefore instead of doing these
tasks that I feel like our busy work I'm doing something that's truly helping and making a difference
there um and that's just an example of like sometimes when you're younger in your career or
earlier on in your career there are some limitations right you're not going to be able to like
take over that client or something like that but maybe you can do something to help support that
so I say that because you know I'm not trying to say oh your job description doesn't matter
and you should take on all this extra work I don't mean it like that but it's like where can you
not just be the indispensable person at work or you work really hard and you know you're doing
all the things how can you be the invaluable person at work what what things really matter on this
team and I think that will help one grow your career um give you some more insights into like
you know what what lessons and tools and skills are you learning the ad value but also kind of
combating that burnout piece as well so I think that's one of the things I find just especially
early on in your career is like you can't look at it as as black and white as it is even though
it feels that way and that's what I was meaning about like one plus one doesn't always equal to
and you're right it could equal four but I think oftentimes people are just fresh because one
plus one isn't even equaling to for them when it comes like they're like they're like I got the
job title and I got this thing why am I not fulfilled like I thought the key to you know career
success and career fulfillment was as simple as like finding the right job at the right company and
I worked really hard to get that way um and that probably goes back to a bigger picture but this is
also why I get frustrated with the terminology like dream job do not I do not talk to me about this
I hate that term I literally did a whole episode of like the myth of the dream job I was like
there's no dream job don't let them tell you that yeah there's no job and what it is it's like
this pumped up lifestyle version and that's that's a problem because also similar to a partner
who's not going to check every box of your life eight job and a career is also not going to do
that so we were talking about not dealing with your internal stuff some people are looking for
that they're looking for this job that will like check all these boxes and then they're so
disappointed when they they get there and they're like it's not what I thought it was going to be
and it's like but maybe we need to peel this back and realize that your expectations of what you
think a job should be and what it owes you and whatever is unrealistic and so you're on this
constant cycle of yes that the myth is what's keeping you stuck and unfulfilled more than any more than
any job or boss or anything like that is yeah I totally agree and I have a friend who talks about
this a lot and she is someone who just like she she hates the idea of a dream job for the reason
that her purpose is never going to lie in what she's getting paid to do like this is just I mean
like the thing that she loves the most in the world is not something she will ever get paid to do
and so it's it's just really interesting to her to hear from her and her being like I don't care
where I work I still have purpose I'm not gonna I'm not looking for my job to fulfill me 100% like
that is not my job job what I mean like that's not what what I'm doing this for I'm doing this for
a paycheck and another thing that I'm I absolutely love how you refer to relationships as well
there's the 90 10 rule which says that a lot of the time people throw away a relationship that is
90% fulfilling because they are missing their 10% and then they find someone who is the 10%
and that doesn't last because they're like actually this is just like all the things I may have
wanted but it sucks and I find that in careers as well like and as someone who is I'm about to
completely like double cross myself be a hypocrite as someone who was working their dream job like
basically at this point like this is the best job I could ever hope for there are still times
when it really sucks and I think about going back if I think about like going back to do a hospital
or just something or something else because it's not secure it's there's just so many other
factors that you give up right it's the trade-off as well I feel like we're just talking we're talking
through so many hypotheticals here I want to ask you like a very pointed question now
what do you have what kind of advice do you have for someone who wants to change careers but it's
concerned about starting over financially and you said it's taking five months I I don't have
five months of savings how do we probably prepare for that change yeah well I think a couple of
things one always be job searching in a way where and what I mean by that is you should always be
thinking about your personal and professional brand upskilling networking networking is not just
with people you know it can also be networking within your company building relationships with
people at work also networking especially if you do want to make a career transition when I often
tell people is like well the people in your current network probably aren't going to be able to
help you get to this new place because they're part of your old place so you need to find what I
call bridge connections you know so if you are and here's the thing you're not necessarily
starting over but would you be removing a like the security of a paycheck if you were to say
I'm gonna quit my job and then find a new job or probably more more likely scenario is I was
laid off and now I need to find a new job right so because most people I think in this job market
they want to switch jobs are probably going to keep their current job while they're searching so
let's just go with like you were laid off you were fired or you don't have a job right now and you
want to find something new there is no no harm in taking a quote bridge job to create some income
for yourself and and have that as a trade-off while you are job searching nothing about taking
you know the grocery store job or the job at the target means that you're there forever right like
your one move does not dictate the rest of your life and also I would say like for someone who
was a recruiter I would actually be very impressed to be like okay you haven't had you've been
job searching for four months what have you been doing with your time you're gonna get asked
the question like that and so by by being able to say like you know I walked dogs for the
neighborhood I took on babysitting I did some freelancing of this and that that shows me that you
have drive and you take initiative and that you're hungry for something new so you know being open
about I'm making a career change I'm doing something different I think is like and then connecting
it to all the the cool things that you're doing to get there I think it's great the other thing if
you wanted to make a career transition right now or you you were job searching and I think one of
the best things you can do is go have informational interviews with people who are doing the job
at ideally the company you want to work at so can you learn from these informational interviews what
the job is like there maybe what skills gaps that you have who do they hire why do they hire them
what did they look for in a hire what did they like about the culture one of the things when I was
working as an admin assistant hated my job and I really wanted to become a recruiter I started
having informational interviews with recruiters now none of those informational interviews led me
to a referral for a job but what they did do is when I did get my job interview at Hulu for recruiting
I was able to tell them I know I don't have prior quote quiet you know recruit I don't have
quote prior recruiting experience but what I do have is I've had 30 informational interviews with
recruiters and I've learned this and this and this about recruiting and here's how my experience my
transferable skills actually are really good fit so for example in recruiting you guys care a lot
about candidate experience and I know this part's really important I don't have candidates but I
work with students students are my candidates and here's how and so I'm speaking the same language
that they might be doing in an interview and for the person on the other end and I know this for
a fact I got the job at Hulu obviously not because I was the most experienced but definitely because
I wanted the job the most and I was you know going above and beyond so do not let your prior or
experience or education or anything like that stop you from the thing that you want to do
part of it is creating a game plan of how are we going to connect the dots from where you are
right now to where you're going to go next and like I said bridge jobs are totally appropriate but
we still want to be able to have this informational interview you know listen to podcasts watch
online courses about you know you want to be a community manager what do they do and then see if
you can start to you know tailor your resume and tailor your LinkedIn profile and tailor your
networking experience or what you talk about the story that you tell people about yourself and
your experience so that it's going to be very relevant to them I have this quote that I heard
someone say that I love which is show the 10% of you that is a 100% relevant to them you know they
don't need to know your whole life story they need to know like what part of you is going to be
really important for them to know if you're transitioning careers it's not I quit my job where I
got laid off the point is I am really excited about online marketing and here's what I've been doing
to connect the dots between what I was doing before and why I want to get into and start in online
marketing that enthusiasm factor is massive it is so massive because we were just talking about it
sometimes people who have who have slided into this career and and I maybe burnt out and stuck
and not gonna bring that same level of freshness and newness that people like so desperately want
yeah it's like you can teach skills you can't teach attitude you know what I mean oh yeah and you
can't like breathe new life into someone like you know what I mean like you kind of have to cut
yeah I just think that's such a it's actually such an asset probably one of the reasons you got
hired at Hulu as well what you just said it's because you was you wanted it the most and they knew
that you were going to bring that into that job another thing that um one of my friends recently
had an experience like that and she has since found a much better job in a much different field and
is like a huge success story of what we're talking about and some of the things she did in the in
the meantime was she taught herself a new skill um she taught herself how to be really really good
at excel which is super random I think if you've ever worked a corporate job you know how valuable
excel is like I still know how to do all my functions from when I was a consultant like it's so
valuable um another one is like audio editing or um learning how to do design work she taught
herself a new skill and she also made her own project for her while she was job hunting um I
always think about what's that man's name that famous man Matt Damon I always think about
Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and how they weren't getting hired for jobs and they weren't getting like
acting gigs and so they just were like fuck it I'm gonna write my own script and sometimes you
need to do that obviously it's not maybe won't make you into a quadruple millionaire that they are
now but just being like oh whilst I was um you know unemployed I like started my own
business like doing re-organizing or I started my own business like um selling online content like
or help as like a social media manager like small things like that that show once again that you
have initiative but also give you a new skill for you to bring into this new career you know I
think it's a misconception that to change careers you suddenly you need to go back to school or you
need to get a whole new degree can you talk about that a bit I think that's like a huge one that I
come across a lot yeah I think that's why the informational interviews are so valuable because
you can ask them you know would you hire someone who can you know has learned these skills via online
learning and on the job and through real experience or do you prefer to see additional education
and they'll probably tell you real life learning of the skills is more valuable to me than however
many degrees you have now it always depends on what it is that you're doing if you want to be a
doctor we need you to go through med school you know but I think it's I would not drop kick to
paying for you know additional education before I've exhausted all my free options and the ability to
like for myself to test out an experiment and build things and um I would start there first 100
times over it's really interesting because I actually when you say like lived experiences better I
have a politics degree and I have a philosophy degree oh I don't know economics degree do I use those
no no so like if someone if I was to walk into like a position for a con for an economist
and be like oh yeah I have a degree but I have never done anything like this ever before
I really could probably only apply my knowledge from uni and that was years ago yeah they're not
gonna yeah I mean experience is always going to speak much louder than degrees and words it you
know I think you know for a lot of people having the college degree is like kind of that first step
but even now today like I mean my kids are really young but if my kids get ready to go to college
I'm probably gonna ask them well what are you studying is there because you might not even need to go
to university at some point you know you might be able to learn everything via on the job learning
and through I mean you can literally pretty much learn anything via YouTube videos if you really
wanted to or tick-tock videos at this point you know so I I absolutely especially for the advanced
degree thing I'm always hesitant to ever give the advice of like yeah go and pay for the thing now
some people are like I need the accountability I need to be able to show them person you're that
you're talking about something a little different you could hire a career coach to help you and
work with you that would be a lot cheaper than going through an academic program oh absolutely
especially I find this a lot with my friends who are like they've reached kind of like a plateau
at like 25 26 and a lot of them are like I'm gonna go do my masters um because in Australia like
the government pays like yeah it's a lot easier to do it the government pays you're learning for you
um and it's just like it's just like almost like a limbo point like taking a bridge job you know
it you're you're like bridging between wherever you're gonna go next and you're gonna buy time and
I will say there are plenty of people in the US that they just pay for it which is not the best idea but
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what are some of the key challenges you think they might encounter and how can they be prepared
for them so that when they happen they don't terrifying and cause them to retreat yeah I mean I
will just say rejection is part of the process right so you're gonna apply for jobs and not get
them you're gonna have interviews that don't go well you know I you're gonna have informational
interviews where you reach out and the person never gets back to you never get to have it so
you know part of this is trying to figure out what parts of this process can I control and what
parts do I not have control over and also not giving up because you had one bad moment like I joke
that like if your resume got rejected let's say they're spending it seven seconds on average
looking at your resume that's if they even did look at your resume like that can't be taken as
a personal rejection and okay you should give up because what is that person no right they spent
seven seconds looking over something but there are some tips that you can do that give you a
better chance like for example creating a really great master resume and then tailoring that resume
for each job that you apply for that is something that is totally in your control people always ask
how do I tailor you're gonna tailor it based on what the job description and the company are
looking for so you're able to take your experience and how can you again take those transferable
skills and make them work for what that company needs now can you when you apply for a job go back
to that informational interview that you had at that job and say I recently applied for this job
would you be able to refer me can I send my resume to you and you send it to a hiring manager that's
within your control you're able to send you know prep really well before an interview by researching
the company researching who you're gonna interview with sending a thank you note after those are
things that you can control you can have a practice interview with your best friend your mom your
career coach whoever those are things that you can control um I think that focusing on what you can
control um versus you know letting one thing kind of fall out of place and then it kind of takes
everything down for you it's it's not it's like an overall lesson in life is like that's not going
to go very well because stuff happens and you have to be able to adapt and go with plan B the other
thing I always help people I'm like there's no one right way to job search so like apply to jobs
online colt you know cold apply to jobs online also ask your network um you know create a sample
projects of like if the job you're applying to is a social media manager create a fake social media
account for them or show real graphics of the content you would create if you were to get hired
there like you have the ability to put your best foot forward and control those things now there are
so many reasons why people do and do not get jobs and we can't always control those and you know
it's humans making decisions about other humans so that's why I say um that and one of the worst
things that can happen in a job search and I see it happen all the time is like people don't start
getting traction so then they start to like really kind of lose faith and hoping their own abilities
and it's kind of like this insecurity and negativity you know imposter syndrome versus a growth
mindset sometimes is a slippery slope you know the growth mindset as the person who says
I'm gonna get there and I trust in my ability to learn and adapt and keep going and be resilient
and the the imposter syndrome person is well you're not getting jobs because you know you're not
that good about you you don't really know what you're doing anyway it's like this is a long shot
anyways and so being able to manage those thoughts is also really important in a huge life skill
so that's why I've always been a big fan of like find another friend who is job searching with you
so you can share this stuff so that they can be your hype woman when you need to and vice versa I
think all of that is really important in job searches there's a lot of moving parts that happen
with it so yeah and then the other thing is do not forget about the power of LinkedIn having an
optimized profile networking with people on LinkedIn leaving engaged comments I just an entire
podcast episode about the power of LinkedIn comments and that's something you have control over
you know so I like to shift people back to the things that you can control versus the things you
can't control the other thing I would say is if you're in that part is think about the companies
that you want to apply for so sometimes it's a little scary to be like I'm just gonna apply to
any job that comes at me that I'm interested yeah and so one of the things I've always been a fan
of and I'm not saying this is the only way but sometimes I feel like it can narrow down a little
bit for you if you're feeling overwhelmed by saying okay let's just focus on what are your target
companies why are they your target companies do you only want to work for remote companies do you
only want to work for companies whose products you're obsessed with you know do you only want to
work for companies that are on the best companies to work for less you know that kind of thing like
it you look no one's like double checking your work so it can be for any reason and it can be that
they have a bigger longer vacation policy I don't really care my point being is like get some clarity
over why this company interests you and can you dive a little deeper to learn about it and um
you know learn about the company listen to the podcast with their leaders um see if they've
earning calls that you can check in with um do they have events that you can go to or online events
can you follow them on social media you know all of those things add up also yeah I totally agree
it's about I think it's just like having an exploratory mindset and one that's like one of
abundance and being like I'm gonna get this job and I'm gonna show them that I want this job and
I'm gonna keep all my doors open can I I'm gonna finish up by asking you one more question
um maybe two maybe two um what advice would you give for someone who's taking in a less
conventional career path who wants to do something that's like not necessarily a job that you
can apply for through LinkedIn or through seek I'm thinking people normally like in creative
jobs photographers people who want to start their own businesses,
podcast is that kind of thing yeah I think for anybody who's starting something that maybe
isn't like a job that you apply to online is like just get started you know my very first podcast
episode is not as good as the podcast episode I have today but thank goodness I started and I
started practicing you know and I and I just got out there I recently started creating content
on LinkedIn and I was like oh my god my first like five posts are not that good I didn't understand
like the best way to like write your content and format it on LinkedIn and guess what I keep doing
it every day not because I love having one more thing to do but because I want to get better at it
so if you are you know building your own brand of your own business something to think about is
like just get started and then by starting you will start to iron out some of the wrinkles
and connect with other people who are doing the stuff that you want to do because they will be
your best teachers and advocates and people you can go to and the other thing I guess is probably
on the financial same way as like how are you going to make money you know like if you're going to
be a photographer like how are you planning on charging people what are your packages like lane
stuff out versus being a little Lucy Goosey I think people like to have options not too many options
you know and then also making it easy for them to make those decisions and personal branding slash
you know marketing I guess is is a big piece of all of that you know if you're going to be a
podcaster um how are you going to get people to listen to your show you know are you just going to
build it and then hope that they come they probably won't you know so are you going to also start
sharing it on LinkedIn are you going to start an Instagram channel on TikTok are you going to
recycle the content so you know as a content creator today I don't I didn't go to school to become
a content creator but I learned by doing and watching other people um reading their blog posts you
know and just iterating along the way too um I think if you're doing a less traditional career path
it's something more creative it just requires you to not just do that thing you also probably are
going to have to be like for example you're a podcaster you own a business you understand you don't
just get to podcast some days you also have to think about like taxes and payroll or you know that
kind of stuff so just something to think about it's that you know running a business is a whole
of their set of skills besides just that I think a lot of people start running a business because
they're like I really love photography well there are probably other career paths that you can do
that include photography and it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to start your own business
I think I'm also sensitive to this because I think for a while at least my generation the millennial
women generation I think we were constantly told if if work isn't working for you just become your
own boss become a quote-girl boss and I don't think that's the answer for everybody either so I think
that for some people entrepreneurship is a is a great um path and for some people it's like I'm
very creative and I like to create but I really want the security and no job is providing you 100
percent security but like I want to do it on a larger scale for a bigger company you know I want
to go work for Canva where I'm helping do design work or something like that so just something to
think about is like also who are you as a person entrepreneurship comes with high highs low lows
uncertainty it's not that a corporate career doesn't come with that it it comes with its own
slew of things you know the grass is not greener anywhere and I have this woman on the podcast
who is like the grass is green wherever you water it and it's like yeah so where do you want to
invest your time and energy you know because wherever you are you're going to be watering the grass
you have to and you know what did I will say this about working for yourself being an entrepreneur
new or starting your own business whatever it is you have to love what you're doing 150 percent
maybe even 200 percent because when you start doing it for yourself you're going to love it a
lot less because you will suddenly have to deal with a lot of things that you didn't want to deal
with the one for me is like yeah obviously it's just like admin and taxes and talking to my lawyer
and like things like that and then it's also like receiving negative comments and doing social media
like I did not start a podcast thinking that I would have to do social media as much as I did
as I do it's like such a hassle and like I didn't go to school for that either so I think it is about
exactly the perfect place to end is exactly as you said the grass is greenest way you water it
and I honestly think that you can be watering too long so once waiting to shift over to that second
lawn over there and let the other one die off but it's like all about being realistic about like
what you can achieve in what time frame that's might I'm going to say that as a final piece of advice
like you don't have to have it all sorted out in the next six months there's always a sense of
like huge massive urgency in our 20s to get everything instantly sometimes it's going to take
a little bit longer but it's still going to be worth it in the end look at that's a beautiful
place to end I want to say thank you so much Lauren for coming on honestly I was taking notes
I think you could see of like your advice being like oh yep gonna take that gonna pass that on
like it is genuinely so so useful so practical if you want to hear more from Lauren you should go
and follow the career contest at podcast with DeMedia I've actually listened to a few episodes and
you know what it's I love one shows actually give you practical things to do yeah that's pretty much
what we do all the time you know career advice delivered in actual bite size like do this do that
I found that again career advice can sometimes be a little abstract and people like tangible they
need that in order to move forward so that's what we do yeah it's really really useful if you're
thinking about changing careers again I will leave all of Lauren's links and cricket and career
contest links in the description of this episode thank you so much for listening if you enjoyed it
please feel free to share with someone else who might get something out of this episode and leave
a five star review you can also follow us at that psychology podcast if you have some feedback
something to say about this episode for other questions or of course an episode suggestion we
always love to hear from you and we will be back next week with another episode Amazon One Medical
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